Calvinists are preaching a false message .

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notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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can you please show me where he said sanctification occurs before salvation and I will AGREE with you?
He is citing Ezek 36 which is about God restoring Israel into their own land. The promise of the new covenant.

When do we receive a new heart from God? When we are saved or before we are saved? How does Ezek 36 nullify John 3:18-19? In the NT we receive the Holy Spirit when we are saved. A washing of regeneration according to Titus 3:5. A quickening according to Eph 2:1, These thing occur when we are saved not before we are saved.

He failed to address John 3:18-19 directly which kind of indicates he does not desire to do so.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

NOV25

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Ezekiel 36 Is reguarding Israel. It says Israel. Its about Israel. A believer today is not CAUSED to walk in SATUTES and JUDGEMENT S .
If you cannot see, or you refuse to admit, that Jesus was referring the the Ezekiel passages in John 3 you may be in worse shape than we thought.
 

CS1

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He is citing Ezek 36 which is about God restoring Israel into their own land. The promise of the new covenant.

When do we receive a new heart from God? When we are saved or before we are saved? How does Ezek 36 nullify John 3:18-19? In the NT we receive the Holy Spirit when we are saved. A washing of regeneration according to Titus 3:5. A quickening according to Eph 2:1, These thing occur when we are saved not before we are saved.

He failed to address John 3:18-19 directly which kind of indicates he does not desire to do so.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
we receive salvation immediately upon our faith in Christ as Roman chapter 10:9-10 says. But the new heart which is speaking of new nature we receive, but the work of sanctification continues until the body has been glorified.
a new heart we have, a new mind of Christ must be developed. yes Ezek 36 is about God restoring Israel are you saying there is no application found in the New Testament?
 

notuptome

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we receive salvation immediately upon our faith in Christ as Roman chapter 10:9-10 says. But the new heart which is speaking of new nature we receive, but the work of sanctification continues until the body has been glorified.
a new heart we have, a new mind of Christ must be developed. yes Ezek 36 is about God restoring Israel are you saying there is no application found in the New Testament?
We are made a new creature in Christ the moment we receive Him as Savior.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Yes sanctification is a lifelong process but we must be new in Christ before it can begin. God is not going to sanctify the unregenerate.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

throughfaith

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no, you just are judgemental and arrogant. That is why I think your thread should be closed. I would no more agree with calling all Calvinist unbiblical than I would say all cessationists are not Christians or saved. The fact that you cannot see in many ways I agree with your position but do not approve of your method of communication. You are blinded by pride which takes away from your effectiveness. You are not even pithy.
I'm not aware that ' cessationalism ' is a denomination. I've never said Calvinists are not saved .
 

Magenta

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Already - Romans 8:15
The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the
Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”


Romans 8:15-16:)
 

throughfaith

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If you cannot see, or you refuse to admit, that Jesus was referring the the Ezekiel passages in John 3 you may be in worse shape than we thought.
You do not believe the bible . Let's actually look at the verses .

28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
32Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of ISRAEL .

33¶Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

Its desperately obvious it s referring to Israel
. Gentile believers are not CAUSED to walk in Statute s and Judgements .
No where does Paul ever refer to regeneration this way . It says ISRAEL what more do you want from a clear verses ? This is the issue . The bible says something and some say " yeah i know what it says but ...."
 

CS1

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I'm not aware that ' cessationalism ' is a denomination. I've never said Calvinists are not saved .
FYi a Calvinist is not a denomination LOl, it is a person who holds to the teaching of John Calvin
 

throughfaith

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All are evil and fall short Roger, it is God the Spirit who changes a mans nature causing Godly sorrow (2 corinthians 7:10) which worketh repentance and faith. It's called being born again. And as Jesus said, the wind blows where IT desires so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

May the Lord bless you with understanding of these biblical truths.
God is pleased to save those that believe, not cause belief in those he saves. (1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 10:9-10)
Eph 1.12
13¶In whom YE also trusted, AFTER that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)

There is no sealing of the spirit before Pentecost or after the harpazo of the church. (Eph. 4:30; John 14:17; Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29)

There are two aspects to salvation: presence/effects of sin and lack of glorification. Nothing that eradicates sin glorifies the sinner. Both aspects must be resolved for salvation to occur. (Rom. 3:23; 5:8; 8:17-30)

Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)

Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)
 

CS1

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Your ' cessationalism 'comment was a strange comparison.
the point was very much made. If you do not see it well, that's on you.

Those who hold to the idea that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today and have ceased I do not agree with but I do not suggest they have a false message. I do not agree with their Biblical position. NOr do I call them a denomination as you did Calvinist.
 

throughfaith

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the point was very much made. If you do not see it well, that's on you.

Those who hold to the idea that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today and have ceased I do not agree with but I do not suggest they have a false message. I do not agree with their Biblical position. NOr do I call them a denomination as you did Calvinist.
Calvinism is a distinct theological system. Cessationalism is a particular view on the ' gifts ' . Cessationalism is not unique to any particular systematic. Calvinism is distinctive with the system of T.U.L.I.P.
 

phil36

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Hi throughfaith,

Do you believe that calvinists believe the gospel. I'm not sure what you mean by 'preaching a false message'.
 

throughfaith

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Hi throughfaith,

Do you believe that calvinists believe the gospel. I'm not sure what you mean by 'preaching a false message'.
I believe in a Jesus that died for the sins of the world and that every one is able to respond positively to Gospel message and be saved .
Is this the same message you believe?
 

NOV25

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The central truth of God’s saving grace is succinctly stated in the assertion, “Salvation is of the Lord.” This strong declaration means that every aspect of man’s salvation is from God and is entirely dependent upon God. The only contribution that we make is the sin that was laid upon Jesus Christ at the cross. The Apostle Paul affirmed this when he wrote, “From Him and through Him and to Him are all things” (Rom. 11:36). This is to say, salvation is God determined, God purchased, God applied, and God secured. From start to finish, salvation is of the Lord alone.

This truth is best summarized in the doctrines of grace, which are total depravity, unconditional election, definite atonement, effectual calling, and preserving grace. These truths present the triune God as the author of our salvation from beginning to end. Each member of the Godhead—Father, Son, and Spirit—has a part to play in redemption, and they work together as one God to rescue those perishing under divine wrath. In perfect unity, the three divine persons do the work that hellbound sinners, utterly unable to save themselves, cannot do.

Steve Lawson.
 

throughfaith

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the point was very much made. If you do not see it well, that's on you.

Those who hold to the idea that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today and have ceased I do not agree with but I do not suggest they have a false message. I do not agree with their Biblical position. NOr do I call them a denomination as you did Calvinist.
I think its a bad comparison. Cessationalism is not an entire theological system / worldview within christianity. Its a minor topic on the sign gifts. Its not a Gospel issue.
 

throughfaith

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The central truth of God’s saving grace is succinctly stated in the assertion, “Salvation is of the Lord.” This strong declaration means that every aspect of man’s salvation is from God and is entirely dependent upon God. The only contribution that we make is the sin that was laid upon Jesus Christ at the cross. The Apostle Paul affirmed this when he wrote, “From Him and through Him and to Him are all things” (Rom. 11:36). This is to say, salvation is God determined, God purchased, God applied, and God secured. From start to finish, salvation is of the Lord alone.

This truth is best summarized in the doctrines of grace, which are total depravity, unconditional election, definite atonement, effectual calling, and preserving grace. These truths present the triune God as the author of our salvation from beginning to end. Each member of the Godhead—Father, Son, and Spirit—has a part to play in redemption, and they work together as one God to rescue those perishing under divine wrath. In perfect unity, the three divine persons do the work that hellbound sinners, utterly unable to save themselves, cannot do.

Steve Lawson.
Salvation is still of the Lord when He dictates how it is appropriated . .
1cor1.21
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by saving people arbitrarily electing them to salvation before they existed? No .
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
It doesn't say he causes belief in those he saves . This is Augustines beliefs imposed onto the text .
 

NOV25

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1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
 

phil36

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I believe in a Jesus that died for the sins of the world and that every one is able to respond positively to Gospel message and be saved .
Is this the same message you believe?
Hi throughfaith,

I Am asking you about your threads title. You say this ''Calvinists are preaching a false message"



Do you believe that calvinists believe the gospel? And if you believe they do are they as Paul says anathema?
 

NOV25

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Nov 23, 2019
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The ancient Jewish betrothal mirrors God's plan and order of salvation in many ways. This may help some you understand.

In the days of Ancient Israel, a particular and detailed procedure of courtship and marriage was an integral part of Jewish social life; however it differs somewhat from what is commonly practiced today. To begin with, the father in consultation with his wife and son would look for a prospective bride for his son, or for his daughter a prospective husband. He would search and choose the one that, he believed, would be the best. The wise and loving father would be close enough and sensitive to his son, so as to confer with him and work with him in this selection process. In Genesis 24:8 and 58, there is a situation with Rebecca, in which she was asked about the proposed marriage to Isaac; and, only after she consented, did her family proceed with the plans.
Courtship and marriage were viewed as the united of two families by the Hebrews, so arrangements were initiated by the parents of the young man and the bride elect. Marriage was a family matter. The story of Ruth and Boaz in The Book of Ruth tells of a beautiful illustration of all this. The matrimonial decision was a committee process with the person and his or her parents each having a loving, conservative, farsighted veto-power (that is, concerning whom not to marry, but not necessarily whom to marry – a very important distinction; this decision-making process today is so often misunderstood in two extremes that should be avoided: the arranging of a marriage totally by the parents on the one extreme and totally by the child on the other extreme.) The principle here was found in the Fifth Commandment to “honor your father and your mother” being applied to matrimony: one must honor one’s father and mother in this most important decision in life. This committee process was at the beginning “just friends” stage of a relationship before any emotional attachments began. (Often, in any difference of opinion and judgment a matter of time would bring a resolution; by waiting each person involved would find more details about the others, where there is also room for change to occur on the part of each person.)
The first step in this courtship and marriage process was betrothal, where the young man and his father negotiate with the bride elect’s family and to decide on a “bridal price,” the most essential element in the process (Gen. 34:12; Exod. 22:16; 1 Sam. 18:25). This bridal price was a determined amount that the son and his father were to pay the parents of the chosen bride. This had nothing to do with a “purchasing” attitude, but rather the fact was that the Hebrews considered daughters of great value. For this the parents of the young woman were to be compensated.
Once the bridegroom paid this bridal price, a sacred and binding “betrothal covenant” was established and entered into by the son and his bride elect and their parents.
The betrothal ceremony was scheduled and took place before witnesses. It was accompanied by vows with the exchange of an arrabon, such as rings, or other such items symbolizing a commitment. The ring was regarded as a token of fidelity and of adoption into a family. The moment that the covenant was established, a lifetime commitment went into force. This commitment was based upon the simple promise of “keeping one’s word” to secure the marriage, as long as both live. Any adultery or divorce involved simply the breaking of this binding promise and would become a loss of honor in the family. The bride was declared “sanctified,” that is, set apart exclusively for her bridegroom.