Can A Merciful God Condemn A Man To Hell Who Has Never Heard The Gospel, And Justify Himself In Doing So?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,071
166
63
#81
The Book of Matthew chapter 18
Who Is the Greatest?
1 At that time the disciples approached Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 Jesus called a little child, had him stand in the middle of them, 3 and said, “Amen I tell you: Unless you are turned and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever receives a little child like this one in my name receives me.


6 “But, if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin,[a] it would be better for him to have a huge millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of temptations to sin. Temptations must come, but woe to that person through whom the temptation comes!


8 “If your hand or your foot causes you to sin,[b] cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than to be thrown into the eternal fire with two hands or two feet. 9 If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to be thrown into hell fire with two eyes. 10 See to it that you do not look down on one of these little ones, because I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven. 11 For the Son of Man came to save what was lost.[c]
More verses
I didn't read your post, 72, until after I wrote basically the same thing later.
I guess great mind think alike. ;)
What is your understanding concerning verses 8 and 9?
Have you thought about the relationship between what Jesus is telling us to do with our body part that offend us, and we who are a part of the body of Christ?
Can we offend Jesus and be cut off as He told us to do with the body part that offends us?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,318
1,184
113
#82
Where does it say that "the wicked do not die in their youth"? I couldn't find it. It directly contradicts Job 36:13-14.
You may not like it, but the hypocrites, mentioned in Job 36:13-14, has reference to us that have been born again, at times. Jobe 21:7 - Wherefore do the wicked live, become old, yea, are mighty in power? Sometimes in the scriptures the wicked, also, has reference to the born again children of God, which makes it harder to distinguish between the two. Psalms 73 David says that he was envious of the prosperity of the wicked, For their are no bands in their death; but their strength is firm. They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED (Greek meaning= divenly punished) like other men. God does not chasten them, which means that he does not love them because Heb 12:6-7-8 says, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the Father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all (of his sons) are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,318
1,184
113
#83
I disagree, if I understood you correctly.
Are you stating, no one needs to do what is written in Romans 10:8-10, like repenting of their doubt and believe in their heart the gospel of Jesus Christ, or that God the Father raise Jesus from the dead, and confess Him as their lord and savior, personally, to be born again?
Romans 10, the Jews that "were pricked in their hearts" after being accused by Peter of crucifying Jesus, were already born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or they would not have been pricked in their new heart to feel guilty. The natural man, void of the Holy Spirit can not be made to feel guilty of breaking spiritual laws because he thinks the things of the Spirit is foolishness. He has not been given the fleshy heart to replace his heart of stone, Ezek 36:26-27. The natural man, when accused of the same thing by Steve, were CUT TO THE HEART and stoned Steven to death. Acts 7:54. Misinterpreting the scripture, such as these, leads to the idea of eternal salvation by works.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,688
13,376
113
#84
You may not like it, but the hypocrites, mentioned in Job 36:13-14, has reference to us that have been born again, at times. Jobe 21:7 - Wherefore do the wicked live, become old, yea, are mighty in power? Sometimes in the scriptures the wicked, also, has reference to the born again children of God, which makes it harder to distinguish between the two. Psalms 73 David says that he was envious of the prosperity of the wicked, For their are no bands in their death; but their strength is firm. They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED (Greek meaning= divenly punished) like other men. God does not chasten them, which means that he does not love them because Heb 12:6-7-8 says, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the Father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all (of his sons) are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
I think you're grasping at straws.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,688
13,376
113
#86
Think what you want to, but use the scriptures to base your rejection of my "grasping".
This goes back to your post #69, wherein you stated,

"All children, in their youth, when they die have been born again and will go to heaven because the scriptures say that the wicked do not die in their youth but grow to be old. There are are no requirements, such as, accepting believing, repenting in order to be born again."

I asked where the Scriptures say that (bolded), and stated that it contradicts Job 36:13-14 (Elihu's words). Instead of giving me a straight answer, you posted the following:

"You may not like it, but the hypocrites, mentioned in Job 36:13-14, has reference to us that have been born again, at times. Jobe 21:7 - Wherefore do the wicked live, become old, yea, are mighty in power? Sometimes in the scriptures the wicked, also, has reference to the born again children of God, which makes it harder to distinguish between the two. Psalms 73 David says that he was envious of the prosperity of the wicked, For their are no bands in their death; but their strength is firm. They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED (Greek meaning= divenly punished) like other men. God does not chasten them, which means that he does not love them because Heb 12:6-7-8 says, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the Father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all (of his sons) are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

Your claim is that the term "hypocrites" refers to those who have been "born again". That's simply ridiculous.

You jump from one passage in Job to another, then to Psalm 73, which says the wicked are not "plagued", which you claim means "chastened". Then you mention Hebrews 12 which says that the Lord loves those whom He chastens, and therefore those who are not chastened are the wicked.

There is no logical connection between "plagued" and "chastened", on which your assertion rests. One is done in love, per Hebrews 12, and the other, in judgment. "Hypocrites" does not ever refer to those who are born again... not even remotely.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,318
1,184
113
#87
This goes back to your post #69, wherein you stated,

"All children, in their youth, when they die have been born again and will go to heaven because the scriptures say that the wicked do not die in their youth but grow to be old. There are are no requirements, such as, accepting believing, repenting in order to be born again."

I asked where the Scriptures say that (bolded), and stated that it contradicts Job 36:13-14 (Elihu's words). Instead of giving me a straight answer, you posted the following:

"You may not like it, but the hypocrites, mentioned in Job 36:13-14, has reference to us that have been born again, at times. Jobe 21:7 - Wherefore do the wicked live, become old, yea, are mighty in power? Sometimes in the scriptures the wicked, also, has reference to the born again children of God, which makes it harder to distinguish between the two. Psalms 73 David says that he was envious of the prosperity of the wicked, For their are no bands in their death; but their strength is firm. They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED (Greek meaning= divenly punished) like other men. God does not chasten them, which means that he does not love them because Heb 12:6-7-8 says, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the Father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all (of his sons) are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

Your claim is that the term "hypocrites" refers to those who have been "born again". That's simply ridiculous.

You jump from one passage in Job to another, then to Psalm 73, which says the wicked are not "plagued", which you claim means "chastened". Then you mention Hebrews 12 which says that the Lord loves those whom He chastens, and therefore those who are not chastened are the wicked.

There is no logical connection between "plagued" and "chastened", on which your assertion rests. One is done in love, per Hebrews 12, and the other, in judgment. "Hypocrites" does not ever refer to those who are born again... not even remotely.
I have shown you more than one scripture that says that the wicked grow old and are not corrected for their wickedness by God's chastening rod but you are so deep rooted in a false doctrine that you have been taught by man, that you refuse to consider anything else. Humility is understanding how sinful we are by nature. psalms 51:17, The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite (smitten, mamed, dejected) heart.
 
Dec 6, 2019
1,206
691
113
#88
Everyone has received a measure of light that they have been disobedient to. Therefore, all men stand guilty before God and without excuse. That is why we are told to go into all the world...
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,688
13,376
113
#89
I have shown you more than one scripture that says that the wicked grow old and are not corrected for their wickedness by God's chastening rod but you are so deep rooted in a false doctrine that you have been taught by man, that you refuse to consider anything else. Humility is understanding how sinful we are by nature. psalms 51:17, The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite (smitten, mamed, dejected) heart.
Wow, dude, you seem to have a lot of anger. Maybe you should identify the real cause of it and deal with it appropriately instead of dumping it on the next person who crosses your path.

You made the assertion that "hypocrites" can sometimes refer to those who are born again. I explained that that is an unwarranted connection. None of your diatribe refutes my explanation.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#90
Jesus said, "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matthew 7:14).

Can A Merciful God Condemn A Man To Hell Who Has Never Heard The Gospel, And Justify Himself In Doing So?
The way is as narrow as the cross is wide. The problem is many people want to circumvent the cross (the Person and work of Jesus) and climb up another way.
Those who never heard of the Gospel will be judged according to their deeds...have fun with that one. Another reason missionary work is so important.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,071
166
63
#91
Romans 10, the Jews that "were pricked in their hearts" after being accused by Peter of crucifying Jesus, were already born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or they would not have been pricked in their new heart to feel guilty. The natural man, void of the Holy Spirit can not be made to feel guilty of breaking spiritual laws because he thinks the things of the Spirit is foolishness. He has not been given the fleshy heart to replace his heart of stone, Ezek 36:26-27. The natural man, when accused of the same thing by Steve, were CUT TO THE HEART and stoned Steven to death. Acts 7:54. Misinterpreting the scripture, such as these, leads to the idea of eternal salvation by works.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

One CANNOT belief in something or someone, in whom they have not heard of or about.
The word "call", is done verbally.
We are saved by grace through faith, and faith MUST BE ACCOMPANIED WITH AN ACT IN ORDER FOR IT TO WORK, such as one speaking what they believe in their heart.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Paul makes getting saved very simple.
Confess with your mouth, verbally, what you believe in your heart.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,230
6,527
113
#92
Our Father knows the hearts of every man.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,318
1,184
113
#93
Wow, dude, you seem to have a lot of anger. Maybe you should identify the real cause of it and deal with it appropriately instead of dumping it on the next person who crosses your path.

You made the assertion that "hypocrites" can sometimes refer to those who are born again. I explained that that is an unwarranted connection. None of your diatribe refutes my explanation.
I apologise if I come across as being angry. I assure you that I am not angry, You may be confusing angry with frustration. It does frustrate me that People minimise God's power in claiming that he wants to eternally save all mankind but lets man's power have more jurisdiction over his power. Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,688
13,376
113
#94
I apologise if I come across as being angry. I assure you that I am not angry, You may be confusing angry with frustration. It does frustrate me that People minimise God's power in claiming that he wants to eternally save all mankind but lets man's power have more jurisdiction over his power. Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
What has any of this to do with my challenge to your post? Nothing at all. Your accusations were completely irrelevant, as is your frustration.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,318
1,184
113
#95
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

One CANNOT belief in something or someone, in whom they have not heard of or about.
The word "call", is done verbally.
We are saved by grace through faith, and faith MUST BE ACCOMPANIED WITH AN ACT IN ORDER FOR IT TO WORK, such as one speaking what they believe in their heart.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Paul makes getting saved very simple.
Confess with your mouth, verbally, what you believe in your heart.
Salvation by grace of God and salvation by the good works of man will always conflict, unless you can understand that all of the scriptures that use salvation in them are not referencing eternal salvation. Salvation according to Greek means = "a deliverance". Many of the scriptures, such as you have quoted, pertaining to salvation are talking about deliverances we receive here in time and are not depicting eternal deliverance. This is the main reason that babes in Christ, who are still on the milk of the word and are not able to digest the meat of the word, are persuaded to believe in eternal deliverance by their good works, such as believing and confessing. The natural man, before he has been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, cannot discern the things of the Spirit in order to believe and confess. After we are born again, there is a deliverance we receive here in time when we confess and believe. Can you not see, with this understand, that God gets the glory and not man?
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,071
166
63
#96
Salvation by grace of God and salvation by the good works of man will always conflict, unless you can understand that all of the scriptures that use salvation in them are not referencing eternal salvation. Salvation according to Greek means = "a deliverance". Many of the scriptures, such as you have quoted, pertaining to salvation are talking about deliverances we receive here in time and are not depicting eternal deliverance. This is the main reason that babes in Christ, who are still on the milk of the word and are not able to digest the meat of the word, are persuaded to believe in eternal deliverance by their good works, such as believing and confessing.
Actually, the scriptures I quoted pertains to SALVATION, NOT healing or deliverance.
No one gets healed or delivered by simply believing God the Father raised Jesus from the dead and confessing Him as lord.
That is not how faith works for one to be saved, nor is it how the kingdom of heaven/God works.
You can't call and look for the cat and expect the dog to show up.
Faith doesn't work that way.

The Greek word translated as "saved" in many texts, means more than just delivered. It also means to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, to be (or make) whole.
It's an all-purpose all-rounder cure-all or panacea.
It covers your whole spirit, soul, and body.

Concerning good works, I would suppose it depends on what you define as a good work.
I'm assuming it is not the same "good works" Jesus did, such as, healing the sick, raising the dead, and the like, but that of the works written in the law, such as, giving to the poor, going to church, reading the bible, and the like.

The kind of works Jesus did will glorify God, and the latter works written above will only glorify the people themselves.
The former works are works of faith, and the latter are more like moral works of the law.
The former works, we CANNOT do, or are incapable of doing, of our own power, strengths, or abilities, but the latter we can do of our own power, strengths, or abilities.
Works of faith REQUIRE the believer to do a correspond work to said belief, for God to move in the situation.
The end result with no work or act done in faith, will be, nothing happens or a negative result. There will be NO salvation, deliverance, healing, or answered prayer without an act or work done in faith.


The natural man, before he has been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, cannot discern the things of the Spirit in order to believe and confess. After we are born again, there is a deliverance we receive here in time when we confess and believe. Can you not see, with this understand, that God gets the glory and not man?
Perhaps you don't fully understand just how this believing and confessing thing works.
Why do you think the bible says, both death and life is in the power of the tongue, and they that love it, shall eat the fruit thereof?
The law of faith or WOF, is a universal law.
It works for both the child of God and unbeliever, for both good and bad, blessing and cursing.
Most people, both believer and unbeliever, either bless or curse both themselves and their family, unwittingly, by speaking what they believe, by speaking either words of faith, which can be for good or bad, or words of fear, which is a belief in the possibility of something bad transpiring or an expectation of a negative outcome.
Why do you think Jesus said, regardless of who you are, you will be judged by EVERY IDLE or THOUGHTLESS word you speaK?
And why do you think Jesus said, a good man brings forth good things and an evil man brings forth evil things based on the treasure stored up in their hearts that they spoke with their mouth?
It is because the spiritual laws of God rule and work, over and in, this natural world we live in, through both the believer and nonbeliever.
So the nonbelievers or natural man, use the spiritual laws of confessing what they believe, or speaking words of faith, albeit unwittingly, causing either a blessing or cursing in their lives.
And the same goes for the believer as well. We are a product of what we have said or spoken without thought.
The purpose of preaching the good news or gospel of Jesus Christ, is because, it is written, "faith cometh by hearing..."
Once a person hears the gospel of Jesus, they are capable of discerning, understanding, and believing the spiritual ramifications of rejecting Christ, and the blessing of accepting the same.
This is not the same as believing in Santa Claus, where we stop believing once we grow up.
If a young child can do it, so can the adults.
 

tjogs

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2009
323
18
18
#97
I skipped couple of pages so I have not read everything in this thread and therefore someone may have said this already.
I would take romans ch 7 as my answer: Without a law sin is dead but through the law it came alive and caused the death
(check rom 7:7-13)
So what does that mean? People who do not know the law cannot be punished by the law. Only then when they have been let known it they are under the law. The purpose of the law after all is to show good from bad.
And those who have died without the knowledge of any kind of God's law, as i believe have had other measures equal to that.
I once asked it directly form God and got the following answer: (aside what you can read in scripture) "Do not worry about it in your head, because that' is not your business to judge those people"