Can Salvation be lost??
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Sin is a condition that leads to death. To be healed of the condition we need Jesus who is the only cure. Jesus is a gift freely given, but we only have the gift if we receive it; which by the way is something we have to do. We are saved by grace..that I totally believe that. But if we dont choose to accept the the gift that God is offering, how can that grace benefit us?
Thats my view, so I am waiting on your explanation of what bible means when :
1. He will blot out the from the book of life (Rev 3:5)
2. In James when they talk about wandering form the truth and saving that soul from hell (James 5:19-20)
3. When Paul talk about the possibility of himself becoming a castaway. (I Cor 9:27)
I am interested in the truth according the Jesus Christ and not according to your own brilliance, therefore if you can prove that's what God wants us to understand, I would humbly obliged, but you have to come good according to His Word.
Looking forward.
Thats my view, so I am waiting on your explanation of what bible means when :
1. He will blot out the from the book of life (Rev 3:5)
2. In James when they talk about wandering form the truth and saving that soul from hell (James 5:19-20)
3. When Paul talk about the possibility of himself becoming a castaway. (I Cor 9:27)
I am interested in the truth according the Jesus Christ and not according to your own brilliance, therefore if you can prove that's what God wants us to understand, I would humbly obliged, but you have to come good according to His Word.
Looking forward.
OK. But you still have not answered what your view is on contextual and systematical interpretation. For example how you relate these scriptures you quoted above with scriptures that clearly imply that salvation can not be lost, such that I quoted earlier. If these scriptures are to contradict one another and people are "free to choose" which one to hold on to or if they actually harmonize with one another, and if the latter, how.
Why do I ask this? Because I see little or no meaning with having scriptures quoted back and forth between us if you are determined to keep some verses as more true above others.
As an example of what I mention here I have bumped into people who deny the deity of Christ, because they have some scriptures which actually SEEMS TO say that. No matter how much scripture quotes one comes up with that indicate that Christ indeed is God they are yet stuck with a few scriptures that SEEMS TO say that Christ is not God. Why? Because they do not interpret scripture contextually or systematically and (consciously or not) think they can override "contradictions" by preference.
That's why I want to know "where you're coming from" before I comment on the scriptures in question.
Why do I ask this? Because I see little or no meaning with having scriptures quoted back and forth between us if you are determined to keep some verses as more true above others.
As an example of what I mention here I have bumped into people who deny the deity of Christ, because they have some scriptures which actually SEEMS TO say that. No matter how much scripture quotes one comes up with that indicate that Christ indeed is God they are yet stuck with a few scriptures that SEEMS TO say that Christ is not God. Why? Because they do not interpret scripture contextually or systematically and (consciously or not) think they can override "contradictions" by preference.
That's why I want to know "where you're coming from" before I comment on the scriptures in question.
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And to me this is a problem. Jesus indeed TASTED death for everyman, but of a truth:
Romans 8:31-39
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:31-39
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
E
To me it is a problem that even if we or anyone else is killed or counted as sheep for the slaughter. that our own death would have anything to do with our own salvation. We are already condemned. how can we pay for our own sin?
Christ paid the price in full, As Paul said, he took the things against us and nailed it to the cross. Jesus said it is finished, he did not say it is begun, now it is your turn to add what i did.
When paul says, FOR THEY SAKE, he means, for the sake of others who need Christ, he sufferes tribulation all day long. so they to can get the message, we should all be this sacrificial for others who need Christ, but our sacrifice will pay for absolutely zero sin debt, or get anyone, including ourselves, out of eternal condemnation.
you also forgot to highlight the most important aspect of that passage.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If nothing can separate us from the Love of God based on what his son did. Then we could never lose salvation. period. For nothing would also mean anything we did, or failed to do, once we became children of God born into his family.
Christ paid the price in full, As Paul said, he took the things against us and nailed it to the cross. Jesus said it is finished, he did not say it is begun, now it is your turn to add what i did.
When paul says, FOR THEY SAKE, he means, for the sake of others who need Christ, he sufferes tribulation all day long. so they to can get the message, we should all be this sacrificial for others who need Christ, but our sacrifice will pay for absolutely zero sin debt, or get anyone, including ourselves, out of eternal condemnation.
you also forgot to highlight the most important aspect of that passage.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If nothing can separate us from the Love of God based on what his son did. Then we could never lose salvation. period. For nothing would also mean anything we did, or failed to do, once we became children of God born into his family.
I Peter 4
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now
“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”[f]
19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now
“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”[f]
19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.
He wasn't possessed by the devil when Jesus called him to be a disciple.
Unless we choose to fall back into sin, nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. We should trust in the Lord's grace to keep us to the end but not forget our own part to play on being obedient 1 Cor 10:12. Believe and you are saved but there is also a possibility for one to change their beliefs (free will).
Unless we choose to fall back into sin, nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. We should trust in the Lord's grace to keep us to the end but not forget our own part to play on being obedient 1 Cor 10:12. Believe and you are saved but there is also a possibility for one to change their beliefs (free will).
E
who said he was? You have not proven he was ever saved now have you? As you have been shown, he was a thief from the momeht he started walking. he walked for the fame and money. like many modern day pastors do. they claim to be disciples of Christ, but they are thiefs.
What part? Being perfect? because the only part you can play is to be perfect. Which john says is impossible. We have no part. Paul said Christ took EVERY certificate of debt against us and nailed it to the cross. then he shunned legalism. and showed us how when Christ returns we WILL be raised with him.
Jesus said on the cross. IT IS FINISHED, he did not say, I did my part. now you do yours.
Your trying to get to heaven by you works, and the law, and rejecting the grace iof Christ my friend. I pray you turn and see the truth, and give it ALL to him.
What part? Being perfect? because the only part you can play is to be perfect. Which john says is impossible. We have no part. Paul said Christ took EVERY certificate of debt against us and nailed it to the cross. then he shunned legalism. and showed us how when Christ returns we WILL be raised with him.
Jesus said on the cross. IT IS FINISHED, he did not say, I did my part. now you do yours.
Your trying to get to heaven by you works, and the law, and rejecting the grace iof Christ my friend. I pray you turn and see the truth, and give it ALL to him.
This straw man question has been posted here many times, the teachings in the currch today promote pre forgivenes of sins, aka OSAS, but to underatand why this OSAS is a doctrine of demons will take a bit of diligent study on your part! Many layers of errors to peel off!
IF you refuse to dig deep to find the truth, as Jesus commanded, you will believe every wind of doctrine that blows by, and assume you are saved when in reality you have been duped by many false teachers who tell you wilth a fake smile you surely will not die! Look what happened to Eve!
What you don’t know wont’ hurt you! Or so goes the old saying. BUT when it comes to God’s Word, what you DON’T know will DESTROY you! Your friendly local church pastors are NOT doing you any favors by keeping you ignorant of Bible Truth. Of course, in the end, you can only blame yourself for not making the effort to find the Truth. Although your pastors will be held accountable for what they SHOULD have done, you will suffer the penalty as an individual for your own neglect.
Whether the Pastors / preachers are doing this intentionally is really of no consequence. Deception blinds everyone, including the teachers. They Preach what they Believe! If the Premise is Substitution, Moral Transfer, Pre-forgiveness and some kind of Security in sin Doctrine, then the Bible must by Necessity fall in line with this Teaching. Therefore the Scriptures quoted and expounded in study, will enforce the premise. The people will have their ears tickled and will not endure sound Doctrine. Every objection will have a ‘reasonable’ explanation and the truth will be neatly ‘explained’ away.
The Wisdom of God is hidden to the Carnal Mind of man. Truth must be ‘Spiritually’ discerned. In sin, your ‘spirit’ is dead. (1Cor2:7-16, Eph2:1-3) Therefore as Jesus said, (Matt13:14-17) the things of God remain a Mystery to you. You will hear and NOT understand, See and not perceive. The Eyes of your understanding are darkened and alienated from the life of God. (Eph4:18) Consequently what you are ‘hearing’ (the manner in which you hear it, Lk8:18) is automatically molded into the ‘Shape’ of twisted Doctrine. In other words, it makes PERFECT sense to your Mind! If the Preacher tells you that you are Pre-forgiven of your sins and God no longer holds you accountable for your wrong doings, you immediately buy into it without question. It makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to your Mind WHAT Scripture Says to the Contrary. Such passages as:
“If you Sin willfully after you have received knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice remains for your sins!” Heb 10:26. Or:
But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality. Col3:25
Have an entirely OPPOSITE Meaning in your Mind. When you hear them, they carry NO impact whatsoever because you are already Pre-disposed to believe the false Premise. This is a Spiritual Conflict between Truth and Error. BOTH have a ‘spirit’ at Work behind them. (2Cor11:4) Nothing is more powerful in the battle for Minds than deep seated conviction. People will Die for what they believe if they hold it dear to their heart. Such is the nature of Patriotic fervor that drives men into conflict for temporal conquest. How much more will people be willing to sacrifice if they THINK it’s for God and Truth? That’s why Paul said in 1Cor13:3:
“If I give my body to be burned and have not love (love for truth!) it profits me NOTHING!”
You Must Grasp what we are up against here in freeing your Mind from the lies and ignorance that have you in bondage to your sin! If it could merely be accomplished by showing you WHAT the Bible says about certain things pertaining to your Salvation, EVERYONE would be free. But it’s not that simple. You are Blind and THINK you See! First you Must get CLEAR of your Wrong Doing before the SPIRIT of Truth can come in and begin teaching you these things. (1John2:24-27)
Your Pastors Constantly tell you that your Salvation is NOT of Works and you are Saved by Grace, which is ‘Un-Merited’ Favor. They quote Eph2:8-9 to Prove it:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast”.
YET the VERY Next Verse says: “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
There’s a WORKING Principle Behind faith or it becomes of no Value. (Faith without deeds is dead! Js2:24) So God can JUDGE you According to you DEEDS, Just as the Bible Clearly Declares:
And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; “1Pet1:17
(And Many other passages Confirm: Rom2:7-8, Matt12:37, 16:27, Jude15, Rev2:23, Jn5:28-29)
Still the conclusion remains in the ‘MINDS’ of the people. That if they ‘Believe’ in Jesus, apart from Doing anything, they will be Saved. That’s why so many of them THINK they are Christians because they repeated some words at one time in their lives. It has NOTHING to do with Bible Faith, but it passed off as Truth. “The Devil’s Believe!” James2:19, says. Faith alone Saves NO One: “You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone! Js2:24
Nevertheless the Myth Continues in place. People who have Never Stopped Sinning (regardless how heinous the sin!) Consider themselves Christians because they have ‘Believed’ and the Pastors WON’T challenge their misconceptions. Yet the Bible CLEARLY Affirms that anyone who Commits Sin is a SLAVE to sin! John8:34. “Whoever Commits sin is a Slave to Sin!” You are s SLAVE to Who you Obey!
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Rom6:16
Simple enough, right? Anyone could Understand this….or can they? So WHY Does everyone in the Church System THINK they can get Saved in their sins and NEVER Stop Sinning? In fact, if anyone says they have Stopped sinning, they are called lairs and laughed to scorn.
Once more, it’s the Teaching they are hearing. To them the Bible affirms that: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the Truth is not in us!” 1Jh1:8. So the Grand Conclusion in their Minds is that EVERYONE has ‘sin’ in them, according to this passage. They are NOT a Salve to Who they Obey, because the sin ‘in them’ cannot be avoided. The Pastors then Teach them that they are all the CHIEF of Sinners, like the Apostle Paul Declares in 1Tim1:15. For anyone to Consider Otherwise, is Impossible because their MINDS are already Convinced THIS is what the Bible Says!
Unraveling this Deception is extremely Difficult to do. Although the Bible Clearly shows that Paul held forth his own Conduct as an Example and Pattern of Good Works to his fellow believes, (not the Chief of sinners!) the Preachers will NEVER tell you about it! WHY? Simply because it doesn’t fit into their line of thought. Paul has to be a sinner and declare himself as one or their entire world will be turned on its head! So Heaps and Heaps of Teachers/Preachers show him as the CHIEF of all sinners, according to the Bible.
But the Bible Teaches NO SUCH Thing! How Could Paul in the Present tense, be a ‘sinner’ when he Constantly told others to FOLLOW his example as a Pattern of life?
Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. Phil3:17
The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you. Phil4:9. Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 1Cor11:1
Even the Passage they all use to affirm Paul as the Chief of Sinners Declares he is a PATTERN to the Believers. (1Tim1:16) AGAIN How Could Paul be Sinning and tell others to FOLLOW his example?
Would you, if you were a Known Sinner, tell people to imitate your behavior? (of course not!) SO WHY WOULD PAUL??? Cleary the first Timothy passage is speaking of his ‘FORMER’ Conduct as a sinner. (see 1Tim1:13) When he was Saul, a persecutor of the Church. Now as Paul, he was FREE from his bondage to sin and WALKING in Newness of life! (Rom6:4-6)
He Said in 1Thess2:10 that his Conduct was Blameless and Just and he Constantly Affirmed that his Conscience was CLEAR before God and men! (Acts24:16, 2Tim1:3, 2Cor4:2, 1Pet3:16,21) In Fact THIS is the PURPOSE of the Commandment! “Love from a Pure Heart, Sincerity and Faith!” 1Tim1:5.
I can Bet that your Pastors have NEVER told you this! It is an Absolute Necessity for you as a Real Christian to GUARD Your heart against defilement and lust and Remain Pure and Blameless in the Sight of God. Otherwise you will wind up DISQUALIFIED from the Kingdom at the Judgment. (1Cor9:27)
But Your Told that Grace is Un-Merited Favor and COVERS your sins and no one has to Work for it. When you Read Titus 2:11 that Defines Grace as Teaching us Godliness and Self Control in this Present Age, your Shocked and immediately suspicious that someone is trying to mislead your faith. That’s how you see the entire Bible. With Blinders on your Eyes that Condone your Sin!
These Pastors can stand before you and imply that Paul was contemplating taking his own life and quote scripture to back it up, and you BELIEVE it! They use a Fragmented passage in 2Cor1:8 that speaks of his trials and tribulations in preaching the Gospel and how they were Despaired even of life! They Suggest that Paul was considering Suicide as a way out of his bitter persecutions. That’s how FAR these teachers will go to promote their false notions.
They tell you that you can DENY Christ and He WON’T Deny You! They insist that NOTHING can Disqualify you from the Kingdom of God. That No Sin you can Commit is beyond the Power of His Grace!
They claim that your Past, Present and FUTURE sins are all forgiven the moment of conversion. They teach that God Magically Transfers the Righteousness and Perfect Obedience of Christ to you as a Substitution for the penalty you deserve. They Constantly imply that no one is Perfect and everyone sins daily in thought, word and deed because they are born sinners and incapable of doing anything Right. To top it off they proclaim that ‘NO ONE’ Can Judge and if anyone does Judge the immoral behavior of Church hypocrites, they are considered ‘evil’ and of the devil. (so no one can be Known by their fruits!)
NONE of these things is taught anywhere in the Bible! Christ Himself said numerous times that IF you Deny Him He would Deny You! (Matt10:33, Mk8:38) The Bible Constantly Affirms that Certain Conduct will DISQUALIFY you from the Kingdom! (Gal5:19-21, 1Cor6:9-10) NO WHERE is it even Slightly implied that your FUTURE Sins are forgiven! (Rom3:25) And the True Saint is told to JUDGE ALL THINGS, least he be deceived! (1Cor2:15) But Your Pastors Keep all these things HIDDEN from you or so twisted up that when you do hear them, they make no sense whatsoever!
Most Church Pastors Teach the Myth of Eternal Security and it keeps the people very well satisfied that their faith is sealed in Christ no matter WHAT they do. But whether they Believe in this Doctrinal myth or not is really of no significance, because EVERYONE is ‘Saved’ in sin and ‘Living’ in Sin! NO ONE has to Patiently Endure in Steadfast Obedient Faith as the Scripture Directs!
Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath. Rom2:7-8
Therefore the Fact that Scripture Declares Clearly that your Salvation is Conditional on your Continuance in the Faith can easily be explained away and sold to the Blind church goers. They hear that no one can SNATCH them out of Jesus hand, that NOTHING can Separate them from God’s Love. That they are Sealed with Holy Spirit of Promise and Guaranteed to inherit the Kingdom!
BUT they CAN’T hear what the Bible Clearly Says:
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1Cor15:1-2
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Heb3:14
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel Col1:22-23
Even though some ‘Believe’ that you have to Continue in the faith, as these passages state, they STILL THINK of themselves as the Chief of Sinners and living daily in sin because they were born sinful. So it really doesn’t matter HOW or in What MANNER you are Reading these things, if you have NEVER STOPED Sinning, you Remain Lost in Darkness. Accordingly when you Read the Bible or Hear the Teachers your MIND is ALREADY Molded into the IMAGE they want to Present. So You can find the Flavor of Doctrine that Pleases your ears and happily go about your way TOTALLY DECEIVED of the Truth, but Believing you can See! www.standingthegap.org
IF you refuse to dig deep to find the truth, as Jesus commanded, you will believe every wind of doctrine that blows by, and assume you are saved when in reality you have been duped by many false teachers who tell you wilth a fake smile you surely will not die! Look what happened to Eve!
What Your Pastor Won’t Tell You!
What you don’t know wont’ hurt you! Or so goes the old saying. BUT when it comes to God’s Word, what you DON’T know will DESTROY you! Your friendly local church pastors are NOT doing you any favors by keeping you ignorant of Bible Truth. Of course, in the end, you can only blame yourself for not making the effort to find the Truth. Although your pastors will be held accountable for what they SHOULD have done, you will suffer the penalty as an individual for your own neglect.
Whether the Pastors / preachers are doing this intentionally is really of no consequence. Deception blinds everyone, including the teachers. They Preach what they Believe! If the Premise is Substitution, Moral Transfer, Pre-forgiveness and some kind of Security in sin Doctrine, then the Bible must by Necessity fall in line with this Teaching. Therefore the Scriptures quoted and expounded in study, will enforce the premise. The people will have their ears tickled and will not endure sound Doctrine. Every objection will have a ‘reasonable’ explanation and the truth will be neatly ‘explained’ away.
The Wisdom of God is hidden to the Carnal Mind of man. Truth must be ‘Spiritually’ discerned. In sin, your ‘spirit’ is dead. (1Cor2:7-16, Eph2:1-3) Therefore as Jesus said, (Matt13:14-17) the things of God remain a Mystery to you. You will hear and NOT understand, See and not perceive. The Eyes of your understanding are darkened and alienated from the life of God. (Eph4:18) Consequently what you are ‘hearing’ (the manner in which you hear it, Lk8:18) is automatically molded into the ‘Shape’ of twisted Doctrine. In other words, it makes PERFECT sense to your Mind! If the Preacher tells you that you are Pre-forgiven of your sins and God no longer holds you accountable for your wrong doings, you immediately buy into it without question. It makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to your Mind WHAT Scripture Says to the Contrary. Such passages as:
“If you Sin willfully after you have received knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice remains for your sins!” Heb 10:26. Or:
But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality. Col3:25
Have an entirely OPPOSITE Meaning in your Mind. When you hear them, they carry NO impact whatsoever because you are already Pre-disposed to believe the false Premise. This is a Spiritual Conflict between Truth and Error. BOTH have a ‘spirit’ at Work behind them. (2Cor11:4) Nothing is more powerful in the battle for Minds than deep seated conviction. People will Die for what they believe if they hold it dear to their heart. Such is the nature of Patriotic fervor that drives men into conflict for temporal conquest. How much more will people be willing to sacrifice if they THINK it’s for God and Truth? That’s why Paul said in 1Cor13:3:
“If I give my body to be burned and have not love (love for truth!) it profits me NOTHING!”
You Must Grasp what we are up against here in freeing your Mind from the lies and ignorance that have you in bondage to your sin! If it could merely be accomplished by showing you WHAT the Bible says about certain things pertaining to your Salvation, EVERYONE would be free. But it’s not that simple. You are Blind and THINK you See! First you Must get CLEAR of your Wrong Doing before the SPIRIT of Truth can come in and begin teaching you these things. (1John2:24-27)
Your Pastors Constantly tell you that your Salvation is NOT of Works and you are Saved by Grace, which is ‘Un-Merited’ Favor. They quote Eph2:8-9 to Prove it:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast”.
YET the VERY Next Verse says: “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
There’s a WORKING Principle Behind faith or it becomes of no Value. (Faith without deeds is dead! Js2:24) So God can JUDGE you According to you DEEDS, Just as the Bible Clearly Declares:
And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; “1Pet1:17
(And Many other passages Confirm: Rom2:7-8, Matt12:37, 16:27, Jude15, Rev2:23, Jn5:28-29)
Still the conclusion remains in the ‘MINDS’ of the people. That if they ‘Believe’ in Jesus, apart from Doing anything, they will be Saved. That’s why so many of them THINK they are Christians because they repeated some words at one time in their lives. It has NOTHING to do with Bible Faith, but it passed off as Truth. “The Devil’s Believe!” James2:19, says. Faith alone Saves NO One: “You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone! Js2:24
Nevertheless the Myth Continues in place. People who have Never Stopped Sinning (regardless how heinous the sin!) Consider themselves Christians because they have ‘Believed’ and the Pastors WON’T challenge their misconceptions. Yet the Bible CLEARLY Affirms that anyone who Commits Sin is a SLAVE to sin! John8:34. “Whoever Commits sin is a Slave to Sin!” You are s SLAVE to Who you Obey!
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Rom6:16
Simple enough, right? Anyone could Understand this….or can they? So WHY Does everyone in the Church System THINK they can get Saved in their sins and NEVER Stop Sinning? In fact, if anyone says they have Stopped sinning, they are called lairs and laughed to scorn.
Once more, it’s the Teaching they are hearing. To them the Bible affirms that: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the Truth is not in us!” 1Jh1:8. So the Grand Conclusion in their Minds is that EVERYONE has ‘sin’ in them, according to this passage. They are NOT a Salve to Who they Obey, because the sin ‘in them’ cannot be avoided. The Pastors then Teach them that they are all the CHIEF of Sinners, like the Apostle Paul Declares in 1Tim1:15. For anyone to Consider Otherwise, is Impossible because their MINDS are already Convinced THIS is what the Bible Says!
Unraveling this Deception is extremely Difficult to do. Although the Bible Clearly shows that Paul held forth his own Conduct as an Example and Pattern of Good Works to his fellow believes, (not the Chief of sinners!) the Preachers will NEVER tell you about it! WHY? Simply because it doesn’t fit into their line of thought. Paul has to be a sinner and declare himself as one or their entire world will be turned on its head! So Heaps and Heaps of Teachers/Preachers show him as the CHIEF of all sinners, according to the Bible.
But the Bible Teaches NO SUCH Thing! How Could Paul in the Present tense, be a ‘sinner’ when he Constantly told others to FOLLOW his example as a Pattern of life?
Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. Phil3:17
The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you. Phil4:9. Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 1Cor11:1
Even the Passage they all use to affirm Paul as the Chief of Sinners Declares he is a PATTERN to the Believers. (1Tim1:16) AGAIN How Could Paul be Sinning and tell others to FOLLOW his example?
Would you, if you were a Known Sinner, tell people to imitate your behavior? (of course not!) SO WHY WOULD PAUL??? Cleary the first Timothy passage is speaking of his ‘FORMER’ Conduct as a sinner. (see 1Tim1:13) When he was Saul, a persecutor of the Church. Now as Paul, he was FREE from his bondage to sin and WALKING in Newness of life! (Rom6:4-6)
He Said in 1Thess2:10 that his Conduct was Blameless and Just and he Constantly Affirmed that his Conscience was CLEAR before God and men! (Acts24:16, 2Tim1:3, 2Cor4:2, 1Pet3:16,21) In Fact THIS is the PURPOSE of the Commandment! “Love from a Pure Heart, Sincerity and Faith!” 1Tim1:5.
I can Bet that your Pastors have NEVER told you this! It is an Absolute Necessity for you as a Real Christian to GUARD Your heart against defilement and lust and Remain Pure and Blameless in the Sight of God. Otherwise you will wind up DISQUALIFIED from the Kingdom at the Judgment. (1Cor9:27)
But Your Told that Grace is Un-Merited Favor and COVERS your sins and no one has to Work for it. When you Read Titus 2:11 that Defines Grace as Teaching us Godliness and Self Control in this Present Age, your Shocked and immediately suspicious that someone is trying to mislead your faith. That’s how you see the entire Bible. With Blinders on your Eyes that Condone your Sin!
These Pastors can stand before you and imply that Paul was contemplating taking his own life and quote scripture to back it up, and you BELIEVE it! They use a Fragmented passage in 2Cor1:8 that speaks of his trials and tribulations in preaching the Gospel and how they were Despaired even of life! They Suggest that Paul was considering Suicide as a way out of his bitter persecutions. That’s how FAR these teachers will go to promote their false notions.
They tell you that you can DENY Christ and He WON’T Deny You! They insist that NOTHING can Disqualify you from the Kingdom of God. That No Sin you can Commit is beyond the Power of His Grace!
They claim that your Past, Present and FUTURE sins are all forgiven the moment of conversion. They teach that God Magically Transfers the Righteousness and Perfect Obedience of Christ to you as a Substitution for the penalty you deserve. They Constantly imply that no one is Perfect and everyone sins daily in thought, word and deed because they are born sinners and incapable of doing anything Right. To top it off they proclaim that ‘NO ONE’ Can Judge and if anyone does Judge the immoral behavior of Church hypocrites, they are considered ‘evil’ and of the devil. (so no one can be Known by their fruits!)
NONE of these things is taught anywhere in the Bible! Christ Himself said numerous times that IF you Deny Him He would Deny You! (Matt10:33, Mk8:38) The Bible Constantly Affirms that Certain Conduct will DISQUALIFY you from the Kingdom! (Gal5:19-21, 1Cor6:9-10) NO WHERE is it even Slightly implied that your FUTURE Sins are forgiven! (Rom3:25) And the True Saint is told to JUDGE ALL THINGS, least he be deceived! (1Cor2:15) But Your Pastors Keep all these things HIDDEN from you or so twisted up that when you do hear them, they make no sense whatsoever!
Most Church Pastors Teach the Myth of Eternal Security and it keeps the people very well satisfied that their faith is sealed in Christ no matter WHAT they do. But whether they Believe in this Doctrinal myth or not is really of no significance, because EVERYONE is ‘Saved’ in sin and ‘Living’ in Sin! NO ONE has to Patiently Endure in Steadfast Obedient Faith as the Scripture Directs!
Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath. Rom2:7-8
Therefore the Fact that Scripture Declares Clearly that your Salvation is Conditional on your Continuance in the Faith can easily be explained away and sold to the Blind church goers. They hear that no one can SNATCH them out of Jesus hand, that NOTHING can Separate them from God’s Love. That they are Sealed with Holy Spirit of Promise and Guaranteed to inherit the Kingdom!
BUT they CAN’T hear what the Bible Clearly Says:
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1Cor15:1-2
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Heb3:14
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel Col1:22-23
Even though some ‘Believe’ that you have to Continue in the faith, as these passages state, they STILL THINK of themselves as the Chief of Sinners and living daily in sin because they were born sinful. So it really doesn’t matter HOW or in What MANNER you are Reading these things, if you have NEVER STOPED Sinning, you Remain Lost in Darkness. Accordingly when you Read the Bible or Hear the Teachers your MIND is ALREADY Molded into the IMAGE they want to Present. So You can find the Flavor of Doctrine that Pleases your ears and happily go about your way TOTALLY DECEIVED of the Truth, but Believing you can See! www.standingthegap.org
Job's three friends, who were so knowledgeable and so convincing in their discourse with Job and thought they were right on concerning their counsel to Job, just like you, but they were so far off base that God got angry with them and told them they were off along with some other things I won't mention. They were even more wordy than yourself, if that is possible.
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Or we can be like this man here who has been duped with the same lie satan has used since cain and able, and believe our false religion and good deeds can be offered to God as a sacrifice for sin, As the oT says, our righteousness is as filthy rags, who in their right mind would go to God and say here God, here are all my good deeds, they should count towards my salvation. They will get such a big suprise when the lord says depart from me, FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU. why? Because instead of seeing themselves in the eyes of a righteous God and seeing how sinful they really are, they compaired themselves to worse sinners, and thought they were more worthy, in doing so, they spirt on the grace of God and the love of God.
You come up with a scripture quote and a comment to it instead of answering my important and relevant question as how to you interpret the Bible.
However, I will shortly respond to this anyway. Yes, foreknowledge is mentioned, but it is mentioned in the context of PREDESTINATION not in the context of foreseen merit (i.e. "God saw who would believe and who would not believe"). See next chapter of same letter which makes that clear.
In general it must be understood that sinners are DEAD in their sins and God is expecting nothing spiritually good from them, let alone that they should repent. Because they lack the ability to repent and believe. Dead men neither want or can do anything. Jesus said salvation is IMPOSSIBLE with men, but it is possible for God who raises up spiritually dead men unto life - wholly outside of them. This is basic and essential in what the gospel is all about.
However, I will shortly respond to this anyway. Yes, foreknowledge is mentioned, but it is mentioned in the context of PREDESTINATION not in the context of foreseen merit (i.e. "God saw who would believe and who would not believe"). See next chapter of same letter which makes that clear.
In general it must be understood that sinners are DEAD in their sins and God is expecting nothing spiritually good from them, let alone that they should repent. Because they lack the ability to repent and believe. Dead men neither want or can do anything. Jesus said salvation is IMPOSSIBLE with men, but it is possible for God who raises up spiritually dead men unto life - wholly outside of them. This is basic and essential in what the gospel is all about.
I didn't come up with the scriptures, that's actually one that you gave me.In addition it is your belief that the foreknowledge is based on the predestination, however, i believe the predestination is based on the foreknowledge.
I cannot answer your question, i really don't know what you are trying to ask.
You know the key to understanding this whole thing is realizing that God looks at the heart. I'm not saying that if you falter along the way God is not gracious. But there is a difference between faltering and turning against God which is not impossible. If we didn't have choice He would no have allowed Eve to sin or to reap the consequences thereof.
We have choice. He wants us to choose Him as much as He has chosen us. And to do so continuously.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, THAT WHOSOEVER believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life
I cannot answer your question, i really don't know what you are trying to ask.
You know the key to understanding this whole thing is realizing that God looks at the heart. I'm not saying that if you falter along the way God is not gracious. But there is a difference between faltering and turning against God which is not impossible. If we didn't have choice He would no have allowed Eve to sin or to reap the consequences thereof.
We have choice. He wants us to choose Him as much as He has chosen us. And to do so continuously.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, THAT WHOSOEVER believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life
While it is true that I am the one who first brought that particular scripture to attention, it really has nothing to do with the point I made since you still came with this scripture quote not yet answering me how you interpret scripture. As I said in an post#104 most likely it will be little else than bouncing back and forth of scriptures between us before I have a clearer picture of how you interpret scripture. (However it is becoming more clear to me what your way of interpretation is, although I am not fully sure, hence the question).
Without knowing what way you interpret scripture we will be left pretty much like this:
So, here we go: You believe vs I believe. While I have no problem with differing views, I believe that in a setting like this it is far more interesting to be able to articulate why we believe as we do and where the roots to our beliefs actually comes from. Because it is only when we understand this well that we are able to stand corrected if necessary. Which goes back to what you said in post#96. For me it is clear that the foreknowledge in question is not in any wise based on God "foreseeing who would believe and not believe" - that thing is nowhere to be found in the Bible and is out of context. However, you need not to do much more than to turn to next chapter, Romans 9, which makes it perfectly clear that the foreknowledge spoken of here had absolutely nothing to do with anything of human works of any kind. This is in context.
OK. Good that you say this now. I was asking in posts#97 and 104 about how you interpret the Bible (and what your view on justification is - something which is clear to me now). Because fact is that everyone, even the most literalist reader, do somehow interpret the Bible. The question is if one has a systematical and contextual approach in doing so (if one tends to see the Bible as a whole with unchanging and ruling principles) or if one tends to "divide" the Bible into sections, which may actually "contradict" one another, with the conclusion of "choosing" some scripture above other scripture, usually not minding their context enough. This would be selective interpretation. I see fundamentalism as a prime example of selectively interpreting the Bible.
Yes. But in scripture there is no great gulf between heart and head as many falsely teaches today, they are one. I hope you understand this. Actually I just recently posted a thread about this issue. I encourage and urge you to read it carefully.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/46568-myth-head-vs-heart-knowledge.html <-link
We cannot so easily compare Adam and Eve with us. We have never been where they were and we did inherit their sin which is the main problem for mankind.
Before we are born again we have no choices at all to do with anything that pleases God. Scripture is very clear on that sinners (natural men) are dead in their sins and trespasses (Eph.2:1-3) and that as such they cannot receive anything because it is foolishness to them (1Cor.2:12-14). This is crucial to understand in order to understand the gospel.
A literal reading of this scripture might make it SEEM TO say that man has an "ability" to choose to believe, if he just wants to. A contextual reading of it will say something entirely else. So, again, contextual and systematic vs selective and non-systematic interpretations.
Without knowing what way you interpret scripture we will be left pretty much like this:
So, here we go: You believe vs I believe. While I have no problem with differing views, I believe that in a setting like this it is far more interesting to be able to articulate why we believe as we do and where the roots to our beliefs actually comes from. Because it is only when we understand this well that we are able to stand corrected if necessary. Which goes back to what you said in post#96. For me it is clear that the foreknowledge in question is not in any wise based on God "foreseeing who would believe and not believe" - that thing is nowhere to be found in the Bible and is out of context. However, you need not to do much more than to turn to next chapter, Romans 9, which makes it perfectly clear that the foreknowledge spoken of here had absolutely nothing to do with anything of human works of any kind. This is in context.
OK. Good that you say this now. I was asking in posts#97 and 104 about how you interpret the Bible (and what your view on justification is - something which is clear to me now). Because fact is that everyone, even the most literalist reader, do somehow interpret the Bible. The question is if one has a systematical and contextual approach in doing so (if one tends to see the Bible as a whole with unchanging and ruling principles) or if one tends to "divide" the Bible into sections, which may actually "contradict" one another, with the conclusion of "choosing" some scripture above other scripture, usually not minding their context enough. This would be selective interpretation. I see fundamentalism as a prime example of selectively interpreting the Bible.
Yes. But in scripture there is no great gulf between heart and head as many falsely teaches today, they are one. I hope you understand this. Actually I just recently posted a thread about this issue. I encourage and urge you to read it carefully.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/46568-myth-head-vs-heart-knowledge.html <-link
We cannot so easily compare Adam and Eve with us. We have never been where they were and we did inherit their sin which is the main problem for mankind.
Before we are born again we have no choices at all to do with anything that pleases God. Scripture is very clear on that sinners (natural men) are dead in their sins and trespasses (Eph.2:1-3) and that as such they cannot receive anything because it is foolishness to them (1Cor.2:12-14). This is crucial to understand in order to understand the gospel.
A literal reading of this scripture might make it SEEM TO say that man has an "ability" to choose to believe, if he just wants to. A contextual reading of it will say something entirely else. So, again, contextual and systematic vs selective and non-systematic interpretations.
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Who can argue with these?....
Ephesians 1:13: "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory"
Romans 8:11: "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you"
Ephesians 1:13: "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory"
Romans 8:11: "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you"