Can Salvation be lost??

[jandian]

While it is true that I am the one who first brought that particular scripture to attention, it really has nothing to do with the point I made since you still came with this scripture quote not yet answering me how you interpret scripture. As I said in an post#104 most likely it will be little else than bouncing back and forth of scriptures between us before I have a clearer picture of how you interpret scripture. (However it is becoming more clear to me what your way of interpretation is, although I am not fully sure, hence the question).

Without knowing what way you interpret scripture we will be left pretty much like this:

So, here we go: You believe vs I believe. While I have no problem with differing views, I believe that in a setting like this it is far more interesting to be able to articulate why we believe as we do and where the roots to our beliefs actually comes from. Because it is only when we understand this well that we are able to stand corrected if necessary. Which goes back to what you said in post#96. For me it is clear that the foreknowledge in question is not in any wise based on God "foreseeing who would believe and not believe" - that thing is nowhere to be found in the Bible and is out of context. However, you need not to do much more than to turn to next chapter, Romans 9, which makes it perfectly clear that the foreknowledge spoken of here had absolutely nothing to do with anything of human works of any kind. This is in context.

OK. Good that you say this now. I was asking in posts#97 and 104 about how you interpret the Bible (and what your view on justification is - something which is clear to me now). Because fact is that everyone, even the most literalist reader, do somehow interpret the Bible. The question is if one has a systematical and contextual approach in doing so (if one tends to see the Bible as a whole with unchanging and ruling principles) or if one tends to "divide" the Bible into sections, which may actually "contradict" one another, with the conclusion of "choosing" some scripture above other scripture, usually not minding their context enough. This would be selective interpretation. I see fundamentalism as a prime example of selectively interpreting the Bible.

Yes. But in scripture there is no great gulf between heart and head as many falsely teaches today, they are one. I hope you understand this. Actually I just recently posted a thread about this issue. I encourage and urge you to read it carefully.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/46568-myth-head-vs-heart-knowledge.html <-link

We cannot so easily compare Adam and Eve with us. We have never been where they were and we did inherit their sin which is the main problem for mankind.

Before we are born again we have no choices at all to do with anything that pleases God. Scripture is very clear on that sinners (natural men) are dead in their sins and trespasses (Eph.2:1-3) and that as such they cannot receive anything because it is foolishness to them (1Cor.2:12-14). This is crucial to understand in order to understand the gospel.

A literal reading of this scripture might make it SEEM TO say that man has an "ability" to choose to believe, if he just wants to. A contextual reading of it will say something entirely else. So, again, contextual and systematic vs selective and non-systematic interpretations.

I don't interpret scripture. The word of God is to be revealed, not based on our brilliant understanding thereof. If that was the case, the unredeemed would be able to read and understand. i choose to use you believe/I believe simpye to differentiate our differences of belief, so pls don't over analyse it. In addition you keep telling me that I havent explained what I believe, however that is what i was attempting to do with the scripture you posted, showing you why I believe what I believe. However, you have yet to attempt to explain the scriptures I gave so that I can understand why they seem irrelevant to God's entire truth.

 

[tribesman]

I don't interpret scripture. The word of God is to be revealed, not based on our brilliant understanding thereof. If that was the case, the unredeemed would be able to read and understand. i choose to use you believe/I believe simpye to differentiate our differences of belief, so pls don't over analyse it. In addition you keep telling me that I havent explained what I believe, however that is what i was attempting to do with the scripture you posted, showing you why I believe what I believe. However, you have yet to attempt to explain the scriptures I gave so that I can understand why they seem irrelevant to God's entire truth.

OK. I will give you some comments to the scriptures you gave when time allows me to. I have already pointed out very important matters in regards to justification/salvation. These are foundational in the understanding of the scriptures in question. I will also add this: it is impossible not to interpret scripture. Even if one wishes to call it "revelation". The only question is how one does so.

 

[beryl]

and Jesus having heard, answered him, saying, `Be not afraid, only believe, and she shall be saved.'
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

 

[jandian]

and Jesus having heard, answered him, saying, `Be not afraid, only believe, and she shall be saved.'
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

I agree that's all you need to be saved. You cannot get saved by works.
We are talking about if it is possible to loose that salvation.the law was not abolished, it was fulfilled; without faith God it is impossible to please Him (this is just one part of the scripture) the other part said "faith without works is dead" they have to work hand in hand. You cannot separate the scriptures,or believe one part and not the other, it is all one truth.

 

[feedm3]

What about Acts 8 specifically leads you to believe he was saved

Because Luke said:

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done

At this point, He says Simon believed "Also", meaning being compared with the others who believed, and he was baptized (obeyed).

I have no reason to assume he was not saved, he did what was required for him to do. I have no reason to assume his belief was not real, or sincere, because Luke does not give that idea in saying he believed also.

, and also that he lost his salvation? I just read the passage, and nothing in particular stands out.

I don't know if he lost his salvation, I said he sinned, and was told what he needed to do (repent of the sin he just committed", or he would "perish with his money".

So if he repented like he was told, then I believe God forgave him as he does us when we repent, if he did not, then I believe he would "perish" just as the scripture says, no saved person will ever perish, so you can see my conclusion.

Simon believed, obeyed, just as the rest of the Samaritans. Once he noticed the Apostles could lay their hands on people and give the HS (of course only by the power of God) he also wanted this power, and this coveting for God's power was sin, and sin separates us from God - Isa 59:1,2, John 9:31.

He was separated from God at this point, and the only way to be reconciled was through repentance, and this has not changed. He was not told to believe again, in a real sense, but to repent:

Just as the Christians were told in Corinth, they were sinning, and Paul's letter brought them to repentance, and Paul's says that repentance was unto salvation, it leads to salvation.

I Cor 7:8 For though I made you(already Christians) sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. 9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death

So for me to say "well he was never really saved to begin with" would be to stretch the message, and to add in what is not there.
To assume he was saved at the point of belief and obedience is not a stretch, nor adds anything to what is not already taught in the remote context - Jn 3:16, Heb 5:9.

Or to say, he was saved and he would not have lost salvation, would be another stretch to the meaning of "perish", even if I was to say it was only a fleshy perishing, it does not fit the words used for the death of a Christian, we do not "perish" in any sense.

Hopefully you can see at least where I am coming from now, even if you don't agree. Thanks

 

[Red33]

The strangest thing that we could do as children and sons of God is to go around and tell others that they can lose their salvation. If we do that what kind of gospel are we preaching and what kind of Christ are we revealing to a lost world who is separated from God through sin and needs to be reconciled. I have never known the Holy Spirit to take part in guiding any believer in the truth that they can lose their salvation. There is absolutely no witness of the Spirit in this false doctrine and representation of God's grace and eternal salvation.

 

[feedm3]

The strangest thing that we could do as children and sons of God is to go around and tell others that they can lose their salvation. If we do that what kind of gospel are we preaching and what kind of Christ are we revealing to a lost world who is separated from God through sin and needs to be reconciled. I have never known the Holy Spirit to take part in guiding any believer in the truth that they can lose their salvation. There is absolutely no witness of the Spirit in this false doctrine and representation of God's grace and eternal salvation.

Well Paul in Gal, said we could "fall from grace" and "Christ will become no effect" upon us. The Heb writer says concerning sinning willfully, "their remains no more sacrifice for sins" (Heb 10:26), John wrote and quoted Jesus telling the church to repent or else he would remove their candlestick", Luke wrote in acts that "Simon would perish" if he did not repent", Paul warns the Corinthian Christians not to receive the grace of God in VAIN" - I Cor 6:1-2. So we see, the HS is responsible for the Bible, and He warns, we can walk away, we can receive grace in vain, we can make Christ of no effect upon us", all through sin.

So it is not false, nor "strange" to teach the warnings of the bible, I don't have to change anything, redefine words, nor ignore any part of scripture, i just read and accept it.

It is dangerous to tell folks, they are safe in sin from eternal consequences, this far from scripture and leads many into more sin.

 

[Red33]

Well Paul in Gal, said we could "fall from grace" and "Christ will become no effect" upon us. The Heb writer says concerning sinning willfully, "their remains no more sacrifice for sins" (Heb 10:26), John wrote and quoted Jesus telling the church to repent or else he would remove their candlestick", Luke wrote in acts that "Simon would perish" if he did not repent", Paul warns the Corinthian Christians not to receive the grace of God in VAIN" - I Cor 6:1-2. So we see, the HS is responsible for the Bible, and He warns, we can walk away, we can receive grace in vain, we can make Christ of no effect upon us", all through sin.

So it is not false, nor "strange" to teach the warnings of the bible, I don't have to change anything, redefine words, nor ignore any part of scripture, i just read and accept it.

It is dangerous to tell folks, they are safe in sin from eternal consequences, this far from scripture and leads many into more sin.

None of those passages of scripture have anything to do with the believer losing their salvation. Tell me this and be honest. When a sinner believes upon the Son, the grace of God and the blood of Christ justifies that sinner completely. No longer is that sinner unjustified and unacceptable to the Father, but through the Son the sinner is justified and made complete and that becomes His standing and His state before God the instant he is saved by grace through faith. Once the sinner has been justified and made acceptable, how is that believer going to be unjustified and made unacceptable to the Father if and when he loses his salvation? His salvation is in the cross and in the fact that he has been justified by the blood. How can that be undone and how can his sin that he has been cleansed from be put back on his account making him a sinner once again with wrath and condemnation upon him? Tell me how that happens judicially with salvation and how all that God does in saving that lost soul is wiped out just as if it never happened? I am waiting for your answer, so don't go away and hide yourself.

 

[feedm3]

None of those passages of scripture have anything to do with the believer losing their salvation. Tell me this and be honest. When a sinner believes upon the Son, the grace of God and the blood of Christ justifies that sinner completely. No longer is that sinner unjustified and unacceptable to the Father, but through the Son the sinner is justified and made complete and that becomes His standing and His state before God the instant he is saved by grace through faith. Once the sinner has been justified and made acceptable, how is that believer going to be unjustified and made unacceptable to the Father if and when he loses his salvation? His salvation is in the cross and in the fact that he has been justified by the blood. How can that be undone and how can his sin that he has been cleansed from be put back on his account making him a sinner once again with wrath and condemnation upon him? Tell me how that happens judicially with salvation and how all that God does in saving that lost soul is wiped out just as if it never happened? I am waiting for your answer, so don't go away and hide yourself.

I need not to "hide myself", sense I have biblical support for my answers and posts, and not just "that has ntohign to do with salvation" kind of answers with no evidence of support, just mere opinion because you hate the thought of having consequences, your still waking after the flesh and dont even know it:

which trouble you.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh,(saying Jesus freed us from sin so we can sin - heresies) but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies

Everyone of those passages in the other posts have to do with loosing salvation, are you serious? do you even know what they say? And to answer your question, we are cleansed by the blood of Christ, this is not an act that lasts even if we decide to live in darkness. The Bible says the blood of Christ "cleanses", "ES" in the end of th word, shows on going, it continues to cleans us as long as we are walking in the light:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us

Did you notice the "IF" in that passage? IF means conditional, IF we walk in the light, continue to walk in the light, what IF we do not? Then read those passages you say have nothign to do with loss of salvation, and while your add it, explain what they mean then.

What does it mean to "fall from grace", "to have no more sacrifice for sins" and "have Christ BECOME no effect", how do we "receive the grace of God in VAIN"??????

If we choose to not walk in the light, then we choose darkness, and we choose a life separated from God - ISA 59:1-2.

Jesus gives us the ability to made made complete (Col 1:28) and stand before God sinless, as if we never sinned through his blood, we can repent. IF we choose not to, then we are not in the light, and we have walked away from God's grace and done despite to the Spirit of grace, for teaching we can sin willfully - Heb 10:26-f.

 

[Red33]

I need not to "hide myself", sense I have biblical support for my answers and posts, and not just "that has ntohign to do with salvation" kind of answers with no evidence of support, just mere opinion because you hate the thought of having consequences, your still waking after the flesh and dont even know it:

which trouble you.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh,(saying Jesus freed us from sin so we can sin - heresies) but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies

Everyone of those passages in the other posts have to do with loosing salvation, are you serious? do you even know what they say? And to answer your question, we are cleansed by the blood of Christ, this is not an act that lasts even if we decide to live in darkness. The Bible says the blood of Christ "cleanses", "ES" in the end of th word, shows on going, it continues to cleans us as long as we are walking in the light:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us

Did you notice the "IF" in that passage? IF means conditional, IF we walk in the light, continue to walk in the light, what IF we do not? Then read those passages you say have nothign to do with loss of salvation, and while your add it, explain what they mean then.

What does it mean to "fall from grace", "to have no more sacrifice for sins" and "have Christ BECOME no effect", how do we "receive the grace of God in VAIN"??????

If we choose to not walk in the light, then we choose darkness, and we choose a life separated from God - ISA 59:1-2.

Jesus gives us the ability to made made complete (Col 1:28) and stand before God sinless, as if we never sinned through his blood, we can repent. IF we choose not to, then we are not in the light, and we have walked away from God's grace and done despite to the Spirit of grace, for teaching we can sin willfully - Heb 10:26-f.

I never demand that anyone answer my questions but you have not answered anything I have asked you. You have avoided it completely because you do not want to consider these thoughts that were mentioned and if you can't deal with those thoughts then you may not have the right understanding as you think you do. The only way that any person can lose their salvation is when it is presented to them through the gospel of Christ and they turn from it and do not believe. Therefore they have never been justified or cleansed from their sin through the blood of Christ. That is the only time salvation can be lost, PERIOD! They remain a lost soul and will spend their life in a lost eternity forever. Without quivication it would appropriate and just to say that these individuals are eternal losers because all who have lost out on salvation, have lost and will not inherit eternal life.

 

[feedm3]

I never demand that anyone answer my questions but you have not answered anything I have asked you. You have avoided it completely because you do not want to consider these thoughts that were mentioned and if you can't deal with those thoughts then you may not have the right understanding as you think you do. The only way that any person can lose their salvation is when it is presented to them through the gospel of Christ and they turn from it and do not believe. Therefore they have never been justified or cleansed from their sin through the blood of Christ. That is the only time salvation can be lost, PERIOD! They remain a lost soul and will spend their life in a lost eternity forever. Without quivication it would appropriate and just to say that these individuals are eternal losers because all who have lost out on salvation, have lost and will not inherit eternal life.

wow, you accuse me of avoiding...Anyway, you, and many others here have gone rounds with me on this subject, you repeat the same thing, no proof, as i am sure you feel i do, though I am giving scripture. Everything you wrote above is your opinion, and not in accordance with scripture, I showed you several passages that are a death blow to what you just said, yet you wont/cant deal with them. I am sure you can redefine them or something as others, you just completely ignore them.

Anyway I was answering Jimmy because I have not spoken much with him, and he simply asked in a civil manner what I saw in Simon's account. As for everyone else I have went in circles with, no offense but I dont really care if you answer me or not, I know you believe what you do and no amount of scripture will change that. It's pointless going in circles, if you have a question about a passage I brought up, then ask, i will answer, otherwise I really dont feel like arguing your opinion, or if you have a passage and would like to know what I believe about that passage, feel free to bring it out. Take care.

 

[Katy-follower]

Well Paul in Gal, said we could "fall from grace" and "Christ will become no effect" upon us.

You need to read the chapter itself to see the full meaning...

Galatians 5:1-6: "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love"

This scripture is saying that we are free from bondage through faith in Christ and so we should be happy and feel free, not get tangled up in stories stating otherwise because we are freeee and secure . Those who live by the law and think they are saved that way do not go by faith and so they are not accepting grace as that free gift. They have fallen away from that gift of grace (they reject it) and basically Christ becomes of no effect because they favor their works over Him. They choose their own way (just like the Pharisees)..

The Heb writer says concerning sinning willfully, "their remains no more sacrifice for sins" (Heb 10:26)

Link --> Does Hebrews 10:26 mean that a believer can lose salvation?

 

[Red33]

wow, you accuse me of avoiding...Anyway, you, and many others here have gone rounds with me on this subject, you repeat the same thing, no proof, as i am sure you feel i do, though I am giving scripture. Everything you wrote above is your opinion, and not in accordance with scripture, I showed you several passages that are a death blow to what you just said, yet you wont/cant deal with them. I am sure you can redefine them or something as others, you just completely ignore them.

Anyway I was answering Jimmy because I have not spoken much with him, and he simply asked in a civil manner what I saw in Simon's account. As for everyone else I have went in circles with, no offense but I dont really care if you answer me or not, I know you believe what you do and no amount of scripture will change that. It's pointless going in circles, if you have a question about a passage I brought up, then ask, i will answer, otherwise I really dont feel like arguing your opinion, or if you have a passage and would like to know what I believe about that passage, feel free to bring it out. Take care.

Do you know according to the truth of the scriptures what God actually does when He redeems a lost soul and imputes to them His righteousness when they believe upon the Son for salvation? That is what you need to study and focus upon in relationship to Christ's death, burial and resurrection. If you did know, then you would never believe the way you do about those scriptures and use them to support your terrible belief about God's great salvation. Many on this site have proved over and over that your belief about God's precious and effectual work of salvation to be not only in error but a travesty of the justice of God and because of unbelief in the heart. You will not believe them nor trust that they have the eternal Spirit that witnesses the truth in them. Why would Jesus, as the Lamb of God, come and shed His blood and take away the sins of the world if He was not going to save them to the uttermost that come to Him by faith and believe? It is an impossibility for any redeemed believer to lose, forfeit or give back the righteousness of God's salvation and it is unbelief to think that God would take back all that He has done through redemption for the sinner at salvation and to separate that sinner from His perfect love and fulfilled promise.

 

[feedm3]

You need to read the chapter itself to see the full meaning...

Galatians 5:1-6: "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love"

This scripture is saying that we are free from bondage through faith in Christ and so we should be happy and feel free, not get tangled up in stories stating otherwise because we are freeee and secure

. Those who live by the law and think they are saved that way do not go by faith and so they are not accepting grace as that free gift. They have fallen away from that gift of grace (they reject it) and basically Christ becomes of no effect because they favor their works over Him. They choose their own way (just like the Pharisees)..

So your saying we cannot lose our salvation, except if we choose to live under the law of Moses, then we reject grace -----then we LOSE SALVATION?

Here you said:

They have fallen away from that gift of grace (they reject it) and basically Christ becomes of no effect because they favor their works over Him.

IF they wre saved before, how can they fall away? How can Christ become of no effect? Even if they returned to the law of Moses, how can salvation be taken back?

See your being inconsistent, your saying we cannot lose salvation, then you say they did because they rejected grace as a free gift by the returning to the law.

So your saying if one starts to believe in works and not grace he will lose his salvation?

So either they were never saved, or they "fell from grace". Of course in order to fall from grace you had to have it, in order for Christ to become of no effect, he must have been effecting you first, so you showed the Gal Christians could lose salvation by what you just said.

Those in Gal church that were fooled by false teachers into thinking they had to keep the law of Moses in order to be a Christian, were warned if they tried to return to the law(A sin) they would fall from grace. Why? Because returning to the law of Moses is sinful because it has been done away with.

Heb 10:26 shows this applies to all willful sinning (i.e. unrepentant). The link you provided below is just another person trying their hardest to change the simple meaning of "if we sin willfully" - Sure Hebrews is about returning to the law of Moses as well, yet this does not change the context of verses 25-29. This is speaking of forsaking the assembling of the church (vs 25), and then it is compared with those who disobeyed the law of Moses (vs 27), showing that the Christians were being told they would deserve a "more sorer" punishment than those under the law for despising the "spirit of grace".

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully (Sin in general, not limited to the law of Moses)after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Christ's sacrifice upon you)
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses 'law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: (Those under Moses Law)
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy(Those under Christ's law - see the contrast?), who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace (because Grace does not teach us we can sin)

The link you provided just does not even explain the verses, because it cant, they already have a misunderstanding due to preconceived idea that forces them to ignore plain and easy to understand words like above.

Thanks for your post, take care.

 

[Katy-follower]

So your saying we cannot lose our salvation, except if we choose to live under the law of Moses, then we reject grace -----then we LOSE SALVATION?

You're misunderstanding what I said. Please read my post again: http://christianchat.com/757057-post132.html

A person who is saved by grace through faith cannot then change their mind and reject grace. Impossible.

Only a non saved person depends on their works to make it to heaven. These are the people who are rejecting grace through faith. They choose to reject it. Most religious groups do. Non believers that try to live a good life are also depending on their works. But all have sinned. There is nothing we can do to save ourselves. It was all done on the cross for us. These people are not saved.

"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law" - again, they are trying to be saved by obeying the law (they have rejected grace through faith)

As the scripture is saying - those who think their works will save them are far from grace because they are depending on themselves (these people are not saved). They don't look to Christ, they look to themselves.

(Note: a person who is saved bears fruits of the Holy Spirit, one of them being sustained obedience - the desire to live a life pleasing to God. We love God so we want to keep his commands in the bible. We try. We don't keep them to be saved, it's after salvation that we want to)

So your saying if one starts to believe in works and not grace he will lose his salvation?

No. I said nothing about losing salvation. You're misunderstanding. I said that a real Christian accepts grace through faith and is saved. A person who is not really a christian depends on works - that person is far away from grace and depending on their works that they are estranged from Christ. This is not losing salvation, rather talking of those who aren't saved to begin with.

A person who is saved already and covered by the blood of Jesus already knows it's not by works. You cannot undo your way of thinking once saved. Impossible. For example, a true Christian who has been born again spiritually and found God does not then turn atheist. Impossible.

 

[oldmanbill]

Salvation cannot be lost. God gives it. God preserves it.
You'll see a lot of scriptures taken from the Gospels and the book of James etc. that some believe proves that salvation can be earned or lost. What many misunderstand is the difference between being a disciple and being saved. A Disciple is a student/follower of Jesus. All Christians are disciples, but not all disciples are Christians. Don't let the legalistic "works" crowd spin your head. Yes, we're created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10) but we're not saved or kept saved by works (Ephesians 2:8&9).
Jesus said in John 5:24 that when we believe in him we have, not will have, eternal life. If that eternal life could be lost, then it was not eternal and Jesus lied.
The true Gospel is that Jesus was the Messiah and that he died for all sin (1John 2:2) and was raised to life again. When you believe that truth, then you are a Christian and receive the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) and are sealed. No one can break God's seal, including you. Praise God!

 

[oldmanbill]

I agree that's all you need to be saved. You cannot get saved by works.
We are talking about if it is possible to loose that salvation.the law was not abolished, it was fulfilled; without faith God it is impossible to please Him (this is just one part of the scripture) the other part said "faith without works is dead" they have to work hand in hand. You cannot separate the scriptures,or believe one part and not the other, it is all one truth.

Faith without works is not visible to others. It's not dead in the sense that it is non existant. It's dead in the sense that it is not vibrant and effective in the view of others. There's no evidence in context that the dead faith that James mentions causes a loss of salvation.

 

[Katy-follower]

Heb 10:26 shows this applies to all willful sinning (i.e. unrepentant). The link you provided below is just another person trying their hardest to change the simple meaning of "if we sin willfully" - Sure Hebrews is about returning to the law of Moses as well, yet this does not change the context of verses 25-29. This is speaking of forsaking the assembling of the church (vs 25), and then it is compared with those who disobeyed the law of Moses (vs 27), showing that the Christians were being told they would deserve a "more sorer" punishment than those under the law for despising the "spirit of grace".

God does not take away the gift He offers. Nowhere does scripture suggest this.

Hebrews 10:26: "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins".................... "Knowledge of the truth" - my husband is not saved. I have shared truth with him practically all the time. He rejects it. He has been given knowledge of the truth but chooses his works in his church instead. He rejects it, even when I share a scripture with him. Just like you could witness to someone telling them about Jesus and they may mock the truth. They remain living their sinful lives when they have knowledge that they are sinners and need to be forgiven. Before anyone shared this truth with them they did not have knowledge of it. "no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" - To a person who rejects after knowledge of the truth, Jesus died in vain to them as they cannot be saved any other way, only through faith in what He did on the cross. They mock the truth, so there is no other way to be saved (there is no sacrifice for their sins as they don't believe)

A person who has not heard the Gospel message does not have knowledge of the truth yet. They are sinners still but no one has witnessed to them yet.

Hebrews 10:29: "Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?" - insulted grace/rejected and mocked grace... trample the son of God/reject or mock Jesus. This verse is making clear that it will be worse punishment for people who were told the truth but rejected it! This is directed at those who are not saved.

(Romans 8:1 - "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" - because those who are born again have been forgiven, covered by the blood of Jesus and can never be condemned. They've been forgiven, they are a child of God) - so verse 29 is not referring to saved people because the two would then contradict each other. So we can see verse 29 is talking of those who heard the gospel and rejected grace through Jesus.

Hebrews 10:30: "For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" - this speaks of God's vengeance. This is clearly not for those who are born again/saved as I stated. It clearly is directed at those who reject the truth and continue to live their sinful lives, trying to be justified by the law. It is not by works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You need to read the chapter itself to see the full meaning...

Galatians 5:1-6: "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love"

This scripture is saying that we are free from bondage through faith in Christ and so we should be happy and feel free, not get tangled up in stories stating otherwise because we are freeee and secure . Those who live by the law and think they are saved that way do not go by faith and so they are not accepting grace as that free gift. They have fallen away from that gift of grace (they reject it) and basically Christ becomes of no effect because they favor their works over Him. They choose their own way (just like the Pharisees)..

People like freedom don't get it. They want to pull verses out of a passage, take them out of context. Then try to cut us down when we look at context and do not look at it their way.

What does paul say here? He is talking to a whole bunch of people, and he breakes them into two groups.

1. "Us or we"- (those who are included with payl)
a. Are free
b. Are awaiting the Hope of righteousness BY FAITH

2. "You" (those who are not included with Paul)
a. Become entangled with the law
b. Become circumcised (add this work of the law to the gospel of Christ.
c. Are trying to be saved by the law, thus are indebted to obay the whole law
d. Are trying to be justified by the law, thus rejecting grace.
e. Grace because useless to them. because they are trying to be saved by law, and have fallen from the message of grace which they have heard but rejected.

here is the point.

1. The context is law vs grace
2. Those who try to add law to grace have fallen from grace and have become indebted to the law. because they have rejected grace and have accepted law.
3. paul separates the two groups. Us, saved by grace through faiht alone. Them, Those who have rejected grace and instead attempt to be justified by law.

no where in this passage does it say what they are saying, they use ONE part of a whole passage, destroy context, and twist it to make their own faulty belief come true.

 

[Katy-follower]

People like freedom don't get it. They want to pull verses out of a passage, take them out of context. Then try to cut us down when we look at context and do not look at it their way.

What does paul say here? He is talking to a whole bunch of people, and he breakes them into two groups.

1. "Us or we"- (those who are included with payl)
a. Are free
b. Are awaiting the Hope of righteousness BY FAITH

2. "You" (those who are not included with Paul)
a. Become entangled with the law
b. Become circumcised (add this work of the law to the gospel of Christ.
c. Are trying to be saved by the law, thus are indebted to obay the whole law
d. Are trying to be justified by the law, thus rejecting grace.
e. Grace because useless to them. because they are trying to be saved by law, and have fallen from the message of grace which they have heard but rejected.

here is the point.

1. The context is law vs grace
2. Those who try to add law to grace have fallen from grace and have become indebted to the law. because they have rejected grace and have accepted law.
3. paul separates the two groups. Us, saved by grace through faiht alone. Them, Those who have rejected grace and instead attempt to be justified by law.

no where in this passage does it say what they are saying, they use ONE part of a whole passage, destroy context, and twist it to make their own faulty belief come true.

Absolutely. I like the way you explained it here EG