Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

[bluto]

Ok sword, first things first. Whether or not the Jews accepted Jesus Christ as the Messiah is not the issue. If they did not accept Him as the Messiah then there would be no need for them to conspire against Him. The question is was Jesus Chrsit the Messiah/Christ? Isaiah 9:6 is a prophecy pertaining to Jesus Christ saying He is not only the Messiah but He is "Mighty" God, Eternal Father, (and this does not mean the Messiah is the person of God the Father), Wonderful Counselor, Prince of Peace.

Regarding John 5:17,18 ask yourself what did Jesus say that so upset the Jews they accused Him of blasphemy and want to kill Him? And I mean what did Jesus say at all the references I gave you for them to want to kill Him. In John 5 here the Jews tell us what ticked them off at vs18. "Calling God His own Father which means to them that Jesus is equating Himself with God. And if you look at Luke 2:49 Jesus as a boy says the following to His parents, "And he said to them, Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I HAD TO BE ABOUT MY FATHER'S BUSINESS?" Here Jesus is calling God the Father His own Father just like at John 5:17,18.

Now for John 10:30. "I and the Father, We are one." This means they are one in nature because the sheep are just as safe in the hands of Jesus Christ as they are in the Fahter's hands. I am "NOT" saying they are the same person. Nor is the text teaching they are "one" in purpose. Although they are one in purpose but not in this specific instance, do you know why?

Look at the context starting at vs33, "The Jews answered Him, For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out God." In the next verses Jesus Himself addresses (not this issue of being one in purpose) but He says at Vs36, "do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, "You are blaspheming, becasue I said , I am the Son of God?" In other words sword, Jesus is addressing the blasphemy charge, not the one in purpose issue. In fact, Jesus quotes Psalm 82:6, where God says, "I said ye are gods" and ye shall die like the men you are.

And do you know why Jesus brought up Psalme 82:6? He did it for a reason, so what was the reason? What Jesus is simply doing is taking the Jew's statment about Him blaspheming to its logical conclusion to show that they are being inconsistent. In effect, jesus is saying, "If you say that I am blaspheming, you must also hold that God is blaspheming because he said to those by whom the word of God came, (at Psalm 82:6) "ye are gods,"

Since God is calling human judges gods (who btw where corrupt judges) why are you not accusing Him of blasphemy?

Now, if Jesus Christ would have just used the words and said, "I am God" do you really think they would have believed Him? In fact, you don't even believe Him nor do you believe the testimony of others in the New Testament that identified Jesus Christ as God. The fact of the matter is that Jesus Christ wants us to come to our own conclusion as to His identity which was the purpose of Matthew 16:13-17 which you brougt up. Remember, the Jews had the writings of the Old Testament but not the New Testament like we have where we can indeed come to the right conclusion, hopefully.

Opps, I almost forgot about John 8:58. "Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham sprang into existence I am." So what do the Jews do again? Vs59, Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him." Jesus is saying He existed before Abraham and the "I am" is what God said at Exodus 3:14. Now, you also have John the Baptist saying the following at John 1:15, "John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, He who comes after Me has a higher rank that I, (why) because HE EXISTED BEFORE ME." How did John the Baptist know Jesus existed before Him since John was six months older than Jesus? Next I will gladly deal with the trial of Jesus Christ at Matthew 26. So sword, any more questions please ask away.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[notbythesword]

Thanks bluto. I’ll try to just ask a few questions at a time to try and not overload you. The first issue I have in respect to the trinity doctrine is the nature of co-equality with God (whom I identify as being the Father). I know that Jesus was sent into this world by the Father, and that He willingly humbled Himself taking on the form of a man.

However, while Jesus was a man He said things like “the Father is greater than I” and many other verses that I’m sure you have heard many times before. I could accept this logic of a temporarily submissive Jesus if indeed Jesus was only involved in temporary subjugation while taking on this role of a man.

Instead, I see this behavior occurring both before and after His earthly bodily roles. This leads me to conclude that Jesus was not just temporarily subjugated while in the form of a man. For instance, after Jesus had risen from the dead, He made it a point to say that He had a God, and that both His God and ours are one and the same.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.”

1: Why would Jesus say that He is ascending to His God if He in fact is God? This is after He has already risen from the dead, so there would be no reason for Him to still be submissive.

The co-eternal compound has problems too, as God cannot be begotten. God has no beginning, but scripture shows us that Jesus did. In fact, the bible shows that Jesus was the firstborn over all creation. That He was the first thing created by God (firstborn from the dead). That “through” Jesus and “for” Jesus God created everything after, because it pleased the Father that the fullness of everything should dwell in His Son.

Colossians 1:15-19 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Proverbs 8:22-31 The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began. I was born when there were no watery depths and no springs filled with water. I was delivered before the mountains and hills were established, before He made the land, the fields, or the first soil on earth. I was there when He established the heavens, when He laid out the horizon on the surface of the ocean, when He placed the skies above, when the fountains of the ocean gushed out, when He set a limit for the sea so that the waters would not violate His command, when He laid out the foundations of the earth. I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him. I was rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race.

2: How can Jesus be a co-eternal part of the Godhead if He in fact had a beginning?

 

[HisHolly]

Thanks bluto. I’ll try to just ask a few questions at a time to try and not overload you. The first issue I have in respect to the trinity doctrine is the nature of co-equality with God (whom I identify as being the Father). I know that Jesus was sent into this world by the Father, and that He willingly humbled Himself taking on the form of a man.

However, while Jesus was a man He said things like “the Father is greater than I” and many other verses that I’m sure you have heard many times before. I could accept this logic of a temporarily submissive Jesus if indeed Jesus was only involved in temporary subjugation while taking on this role of a man.

Instead, I see this behavior occurring both before and after His earthly bodily roles. This leads me to conclude that Jesus was not just temporarily subjugated while in the form of a man. For instance, after Jesus had risen from the dead, He made it a point to say that He had a God, and that both His God and ours are one and the same.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.”

1: Why would Jesus say that He is ascending to His God if He in fact is God? This is after He has already risen from the dead, so there would be no reason for Him to still be submissive.

The co-eternal compound has problems too, as God cannot be begotten. God has no beginning, but scripture shows us that Jesus did. In fact, the bible shows that Jesus was the firstborn over all creation. That He was the first thing created by God (firstborn from the dead). That “through” Jesus and “for” Jesus God created everything after, because it pleased the Father that the fullness of everything should dwell in His Son.

Colossians 1:15-19 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Proverbs 8:22-31 The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began. I was born when there were no watery depths and no springs filled with water. I was delivered before the mountains and hills were established, before He made the land, the fields, or the first soil on earth. I was there when He established the heavens, when He laid out the horizon on the surface of the ocean, when He placed the skies above, when the fountains of the ocean gushed out, when He set a limit for the sea so that the waters would not violate His command, when He laid out the foundations of the earth. I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him. I was rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race.

2: How can Jesus be a co-eternal part of the Godhead if He in fact had a beginning?

I agree.. One cannot be seated at the right hand while being that same one.. Stephen said he seen Jesus standing.. Not the trinity standing, just Jesus

 

[notbythesword]

I agree.. One cannot be seated at the right hand while being that same one.. Stephen said he seen Jesus standing.. Not the trinity standing, just Jesus

That’s a very good point. Even more interesting is how the Father has the authority to decide who sits on His right or left, not Christ. Jesus said the following in Matthew 20:23…

Matthew 20:23 So He said to them, “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.”

Then we can see other verses showing God deciding where Jesus is to sit.

Psalm 110:1 The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

Ephesians 1:20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

I would ask, If Jesus was God (the power) why is He seated next to it?

Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

 

[jaybird88]

Was not trying to prove anything to you. PROOF IS IN THE BELIEVING, which comes from having the Holy Spirit in your heart. Which you seem to be proving that you do not have HIM in your heart.

John 17:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with that glory I had with You before the world existed.

when Jesus speaks about sending the Spirit i dont remember Him teaching you have to up hold certain church doctrines to receive it.

 

[notbythesword]

when Jesus speaks about sending the Spirit i dont remember Him teaching you have to up hold certain church doctrines to receive it.

I have been told on numerous occasions that my salvation is at risk if I don’t adhere to the trinity doctrine. I believe that God raised Jesus (my Lord) from the dead. If you believe that Jesus is God, then you believe either that God raised God from the dead or that Jesus never truly died.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[jaybird88]

I have been told on numerous occasions that my salvation is at risk if I don’t adhere to the trinity doctrine. I believe that God raised Jesus (my Lord) from the dead. If you believe that Jesus is God, then you believe either that God raised God from the dead or that Jesus never truly died.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

i been told same thing. there are scriptures that support the doctrine but just as many that raise questions. what i dont get is why its such a big deal. neither Jesus, the 12 or saint Paul teach you have to believe in a triune Father or your not with us. yet on sundays half the churches are having sermons on this very issue reassuring the congregations that the doctrine is in fact biblical and you must, above all things, believe in the doctrine.

 

[VCO]

when Jesus speaks about sending the Spirit i dont remember Him teaching you have to up hold certain church doctrines to receive it.

John 17:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with that glory I had with You before the world existed.



Wrong question. Now the proper question, is "Do you believe JESUS?" He said clearly that He shared the GLORY of GOD with the FATHER even before the World existed.

 

[valiant]

Thanks bluto. I’ll try to just ask a few questions at a time to try and not overload you. The first issue I have in respect to the trinity doctrine is the nature of co-equality with God (whom I identify as being the Father). I know that Jesus was sent into this world by the Father, and that He willingly humbled Himself taking on the form of a man.

However, while Jesus was a man He said things like “the Father is greater than I” and many other verses that I’m sure you have heard many times before. I could accept this logic of a temporarily submissive Jesus if indeed Jesus was only involved in temporary subjugation while taking on this role of a man.

Instead, I see this behavior occurring both before and after His earthly bodily roles. This leads me to conclude that Jesus was not just temporarily subjugated while in the form of a man. For instance, after Jesus had risen from the dead, He made it a point to say that He had a God, and that both His God and ours are one and the same.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.”

1: Why would Jesus say that He is ascending to His God if He in fact is God? This is after He has already risen from the dead, so there would be no reason for Him to still be submissive.

He said it as man to man not as God to man. But you will note He did not say OUR God. He was speaking of God as different towards Himself. His presence on earth ended with the Ascension, not the resurrection,

The co-eternal compound has problems too, as God cannot be begotten.

neither could the Son literally. It is in order to bring out the Son's relationship with the Father as true Son (not created). Human language must be used. That is why He is spoken of as 'eternally begotten'.

God has no beginning, but scripture shows us that Jesus did.

The Son also had no beginning, He was ever with the Father. He was born as Jesus the man. Thus His manhood had a beginning,

In fact, the bible shows that Jesus was the firstborn over all creation. That He was the first thing created by God (firstborn from the dead). That “through” Jesus and “for” Jesus God created everything after, because it pleased the Father that the fullness of everything should dwell in His Son.

The firstborn cannot be created. The First born was the name applied by the Greek philosophers to the eternal reason, who existed from eternity with God.

Colossians 1:15-19 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell

,

Not a word about His being created,. He was the Word (which was God) and created all things,

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

His Son, therefore not a created being. see above.

Proverbs 8:22-31 The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began. I was born when there were no watery depths and no springs filled with water. I was delivered before the mountains and hills were established, before He made the land, the fields, or the first soil on earth. I was there when He established the heavens, when He laid out the horizon on the surface of the ocean, when He placed the skies above, when the fountains of the ocean gushed out, when He set a limit for the sea so that the waters would not violate His command, when He laid out the foundations of the earth. I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him. I was rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race.

this was spoken of the eternal wisdom. Or are you suggesting that there was a time when God had no wisdom? But it was a SHE. It is not referring to Christ.

2: How can Jesus be a co-eternal part of the Godhead if He in fact had a beginning?

The Son had no beginning. Nor in fact did God's wisdom. But they are not the same

 

[Placid]

Hi VCO,

Quote from Post 1060:
John 10:30 (HCSB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]
[SUP]The Father and I are one."[/SUP]
[SUP] [/SUP]
[SUP] --- Here the Lord is praying to God for the Apostles, in John 17:
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.

--- So when it mentions 'being one,' it means (Echad) in harmony, as here it mentions the Apostles, who are to carry the Gospel Message to the world, "That they may be one, even as we are one."
　
[/SUP]

 

[notbythesword]

I believe that God never had a beginning. He was never begotten, nor was there ever a time when God had no wisdom. I do believe that Jesus was begotten and did have a beginning. I believe that Jesus is eternal henceforth, but that He was the firstborn of God’s creation.

You cannot be made at the beginning of God’s creation (as shown in Proverbs 8:22) and be God. God never had a starting point. Yet scripture shows us that Jesus did. Jesus wanted us to know who He was, as well as the Father. This is why He said this when praying to His Father…

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Now if God was comprised of a three person entity, then why didn’t Jesus say “us” when referencing God? Instead He says “you”. Jesus Identifies the Father as God…not a trinity. Not only does Jesus identify God as being the Father, but so do the apostles.

Galatians 1:1-5 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Romans 15:5-6 Now may the God of patience and comfort grant you to be like-minded toward one another, according to Christ Jesus, that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If both Jesus and the apostles identify God as being the Father…I do too.

 

[valiant]

I believe that God never had a beginning. He was never begotten, nor was there ever a time when God had no wisdom. I do believe that Jesus was begotten and did have a beginning. I believe that Jesus is eternal henceforth, but that He was the firstborn of God’s creation.

and thereby you are lost. You do not believe in the LORD Jesus Christ,

You cannot be made at the beginning of God’s creation (as shown in Proverbs 8:22) and be God

.

Read Proverbs chapter 9 and still say wisdom and Jesus are the same, Wisdom was a woman with maidens. It is pictorial writing,

God never had a starting point. Yet scripture shows us that Jesus did.

The Son never had a starting point. Only the man Jesus did.

Jesus wanted us to know who He was, as well as the Father. This is why He said this when praying to His Father…

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

To know Christ is to know God for He was sent from God and we cannot have eternal life without knowing Him

Now if God was comprised of a three person entity, then why didn’t Jesus say “us” when referencing God? Instead He says “you”.

Because the triunity of God was still in process of revelation.

Jesus Identifies the Father as God…not a trinity. Not only does Jesus identify God as being the Father, but so do the apostles.

Jesus Christ is identified as LORD, which in OT was God. Thus Paul speaks of one God and one Lord (as opposed to the many gods and lords of the heathen).

Galatians 1:1-5 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Romans 15:5-6 Now may the God of patience and comfort grant you to be like-minded toward one another, according to Christ Jesus, that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If both Jesus and the apostles identify God as being the Father…I do too.

They also identify Jesus as GOD (2 Peter 1.1; Col 1.19; 2.9; John 1.1, 14; Heb 1;rev 22.13).

That Jesus was the living God was to slowly dawn on those to whom the Father revealed it. To the rest He spoke in parables

 

[notbythesword]

and thereby you are lost. You do not believe in the LORD Jesus Christ,

.

Read Proverbs chapter 9 and still say wisdom and Jesus are the same, Wisdom was a woman with maidens. It is pictorial writing,




The Son never had a starting point. Only the man Jesus did.



To know Christ is to know God for He was sent from God and we cannot have eternal life without knowing Him



Because the triunity of God was still in process of revelation.



Jesus Christ is identified as LORD, which in OT was God. Thus Paul speaks of one God and one Lord (as opposed to the many gods and lords of the heathen).



They also identify Jesus as GOD (2 Peter 1.1; Col 1.19; 2.9; John 1.1, 14; Heb 1;rev 22.13).

That Jesus was the living God was to slowly dawn on those to whom the Father revealed it. To the rest He spoke in parables

Let me get this straight…you debunk who Jesus identified as God “Because the triunity of God was still in process of revelation.” Okay. Looks like I can’t use scripture as a tool to prove anything then. Unless this “process of revelation” allows it.

 

[jaybird88]

John 17:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with that glory I had with You before the world existed.



Wrong question. Now the proper question, is "Do you believe JESUS?" He said clearly that He shared the GLORY of GOD with the FATHER even before the World existed.

there was no question i was simply posting what Jesus teaches, more specifically, what He does not teach.

do i believe Jesus, yes, i believe in what He taught, however i do not insert my own doctrines and philosophies into His teachings. why do i not do this, because Jesus taught very clearly NOT to do it.

 

[jaybird88]

and thereby you are lost. You do not believe in the LORD Jesus Christ,

he is not lost, he is going by what the bible teaches rather than what man teaches.

IMO people fall away when they use doctrines of man as a tool against others.

 

[notbythesword]

John 17:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with that glory I had with You before the world existed.



Wrong question. Now the proper question, is "Do you believe JESUS?" He said clearly that He shared the GLORY of GOD with the FATHER even before the World existed.

I personally believe that Jesus existed before the world existed. He obviously has great glory since He is the Son of God. I’d just like to know how Jesus existing prior to the world makes Him God though? The angels have been around for a while too. Seems like a jump to an absolute conclusion based upon a preconceived doctrine to me.

 

[VCO]

there was no question i was simply posting what Jesus teaches, more specifically, what He does not teach.

do i believe Jesus, yes, i believe in what He taught, however i do not insert my own doctrines and philosophies into His teachings. why do i not do this, because Jesus taught very clearly NOT to do it.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] If anyone teaches other doctrine and does not agree with the sound teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the teaching that promotes godliness,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] he is conceited, understanding nothing, but has a sick interest in disputes and arguments over words. From these come envy, quarreling, slander, evil suspicions,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and constant disagreement among people whose minds are depraved and deprived of the truth, who imagine that godliness is a way to material gain.


2 Timothy 4:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new.

 

[notbythesword]

1 Timothy 6:3-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] If anyone teaches other doctrine and does not agree with the sound teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the teaching that promotes godliness,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] he is conceited, understanding nothing, but has a sick interest in disputes and arguments over words. From these come envy, quarreling, slander, evil suspicions,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and constant disagreement among people whose minds are depraved and deprived of the truth, who imagine that godliness is a way to material gain.


2 Timothy 4:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new.

Something new…you mean like the Council of Nicea new? You know, where a bunch of “teachers” gathered to make an official doctrine.

 

[jaybird88]

1 Timothy 6:3-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] If anyone teaches other doctrine and does not agree with the sound teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the teaching that promotes godliness,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] he is conceited, understanding nothing, but has a sick interest in disputes and arguments over words. From these come envy, quarreling, slander, evil suspicions,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and constant disagreement among people whose minds are depraved and deprived of the truth, who imagine that godliness is a way to material gain.


2 Timothy 4:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new.

i think you and i see two totally different things here.
there are some of us here that are trying to follow scripture and we are basing our conclusions according to that and not letting doctrines of man be an influence, yet when we do this what happens, we get attacked and slandered, just like the passage says. i have not accused anyone of anything but have had it done to me. so what does that tell you of the scripture above?

this is the second time you posted this passage to me, its as if you want it to mean "sound doctrines" equal doctrines of man, if this was correct then we wouldn't need what Jesus teaches as we could just as easily make it ourselves as we go. what exactly do you think "sound doctrine" means? you think the passage is referring to doctrines that would not be taught until many years later. think about it.

to me sound doctrines means what Jesus teaches and not what man teaches.

and again, just because the majority say its truth does not make it so, Jesus was far from the majority when He was teaching, you seem to forget that.

 

[HisHolly]

That’s a very good point. Even more interesting is how the Father has the authority to decide who sits on His right or left, not Christ. Jesus said the following in Matthew 20:23…

Matthew 20:23 So He said to them, “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.”

Then we can see other verses showing God deciding where Jesus is to sit.

Psalm 110:1 The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

Ephesians 1:20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

I would ask, If Jesus was God (the power) why is He seated next to it?

Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

In the law it said everything is established by the word of at least 2.. Jesus said He was not alone in His testimony of Himself bc His Father also was testifying of Him.. They indeed are 2