Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

Quasar92 · Oct 17, 2016

VCO said:

Proof that God is the Holy Spirit and Father by the Scriptures is easy. Let me see you prove where the Bible, Jesus, or His disciples ever taught any such thing as the Trinity. For starter, review Jn.14:19 where Jesus said His Father lives in Him. What is in Him" The Holy Spirit, of course.

Quasar92

Placid · Oct 17, 2016

Hi Mpaper345,
　
Quote from Post 1037:
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,a visible manifestation of the invisible God,and the man Christ Jesus is the personal human body of God.

Response: --- I see that you are well informed in the Scriptures and are well established in what you believe. I have no problem with that. --- I think you will agree that we first must believe in God and accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord, and receive the Holy Spirit to guide us in understanding the Scriptures, --- and be a vessel that God can use. --- As it says in Ephesians 2:
8 For by (God's) grace you have been saved through (your) faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (There are no works that can be done to obtain a free gift, or it is not a gift, is it?)
10 For we are His workmanship (His workers), (re)created in Christ Jesus for good works (we are saved to serve), which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. --- (And God prepared a work for each of us to do beforehand)
--- So the Christian life comes with a work schedule, and we must live close to Him to know His will for us.
　
The statement above:
"Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,a visible manifestation of the invisible God,and the man Christ Jesus is the personal human body of God."

--- What I have presented is that Jesus was born on earth and 'was the visible manifestation of God,' and was indwelt by Christ who came from heaven. --- Therefore, Jesus was the Light of the world that all men followed. --- But the point came when He said in John 9:
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
--- After the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension, Jesus was no longer in the world, but took on the new role.
It said in Matthew that when Jesus died, the veil of the Temple was torn down (Matthew 27:51). --- And the way was opened into the Holy of Holies. --- Jesus became our High Priest and opened the door into the 'Prayer Room,' and kept it open, --- and so, we can come to God and pray directly in 'Jesus' name,' --- Jesus is our Savior, and our High Priest. --- And this is what I had written in Post 1025.
　
After the ascension, the focus was on Christ, who is the head of the Church. It says in 2 Corinthians 5:19 "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." --- (It doesn't say that God was in Jesus, --- but that Jesus and Christ were together till the Resurrection.) --- After Jesus left, there was no physical manifesttion of God in the world, --- but after the Day of Pentecost, --- by the New Birth, --- 'born again' believers become the physical Manifestation of God as 'children of God,' is that not right? --- It says in Romans 8:
14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."

--- I will give you the posts I wrote on the 'three phases of our redemption.'
First phase Post 892; --- the second phase Post 910; --- and the third phase Post 918.
Finally, we know that it says a few times that "Christ is sitting at the right hand of God." --- Therefore, Christ cannot be God, because He is 'sitting at the right hand of God.' --- Also it makes this distinction in Hebrews 8:
1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
--- Jesus was exalted to be the High Priest of the 'Sanctuary' of the true 'Tabernacle' in heaven, --- 'which the Lord erected' --- and it is situated 'at the right hand OF THE THRONE OF THE MAJESTY IN HEAVEN. --- So Jesus could not be God either, because He officiates as the High Priest of God, in a separate building, --- is that not right?
　

RBA238 · Oct 17, 2016

VCO said:

Good read! Add these two Verses and it locks up, The False Doctrine of The Trinity is a Myth.

Isaiah 9 verse 6 : (A Prophecy of a future event)
"For unto us A CHILD IS BORN, unto us a SON IS GIVEN . And his name shall be called wonderful, counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD,.THE EVERLASTING FATHER, And The PRINCE OF PEACE". So, we read that God is The "Child Born" "SON given" is God and The Father all at the same time..

VCO · Oct 17, 2016

Quasar92 said:

I already did that a multitude of times on this site, and to you personally on this thread, and you closed your eyes, stuck your figures in your ears and REFUSED TO BELIEVE.

What you are NOT GETTING, is it is NOT the body of Jesus that is GOD, but rather the SPIRIT of JESUS that IS GOD OUR CREATOR. GOD determined that ONLY a HOLY BLOOD Sacrifice would pay for the sins of the World. GOD wanted to show the HIGHEST FORM OF LOVE FOR HIS CREATION, AND PAY THAT SACRIFICE HIMSELF. GOD IS ETERNAL, therefore HE had to create in the womb of Mary a human body, so that HE thee ETERNAL ONE, COULD ENTER THAT BODY AND BE THAT HOLY BLOOD SACRIFICE. GOD says there is NO GREATER LOVE THAN A MAN LAY DOWN HIS LIFE FOR HIS FRIENDS. For GOD to Sacrifice an OFFSPRING instead of HIMSELF would be LESS THAN WHAT A MAN COULD DO.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (ASV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

THEREFORE when the HUMAN part of JESUS is speaking of HIS relationship to GOD, you have HIM saying "your God and my God". Which would be absolutely correct concerning JESUS THE MAN.

But when the Spiritual Part of JESUS is speaking, you have HIM saying, "Before Abraham was, I AM." and,"He who has seen me, has seen the the Father". Which is absolutely correct concerning the SPIRIT IN JESUS.

GOD IS SPIRIT, THEREFORE it is not the body of JESUS THAT IS GOD, IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN HIS ETERNAL SPIRIT, literally the Part of HIMSELF that has always carried out the will of the Father.

Quasar92 · Oct 17, 2016

VCO said:

I already did that a multitude of times on this site, and to you personally on this thread, and you closed your eyes, stuck your figures in your ears and REFUSED TO BELIEVE.

What you are NOT GETTING, is it is NOT the body of Jesus that is GOD, but rather the SPIRIT of JESUS that IS GOD OUR CREATOR. GOD determined that ONLY a HOLY BLOOD Sacrifice would pay for the sins of the World. GOD wanted to show the HIGHEST FORM OF LOVE FOR HIS CREATION, AND PAY THAT SACRIFICE HIMSELF. GOD IS ETERNAL, therefore HE had to create in the womb of Mary a human body, so that HE thee ETERNAL ONE, COULD ENTER THAT BODY AND BE THAT HOLY BLOOD SACRIFICE. GOD says there is NO GREATER LOVE THAN A MAN LAY DOWN HIS LIFE FOR HIS FRIENDS. For GOD to Sacrifice an OFFSPRING instead of HIMSELF would be LESS THAN WHAT A MAN COULD DO.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (ASV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

THEREFORE when the HUMAN part of JESUS is speaking of HIS relationship to GOD, you have HIM saying "your God and my God". Which would be absolutely correct concerning JESUS THE MAN.

But when the Spiritual Part of JESUS is speaking, you have HIM saying, "Before Abraham was, I AM." and,"He who has seen me, has seen the the Father". Which is absolutely correct concerning the SPIRIT IN JESUS.

GOD IS SPIRIT, THEREFORE it is not the body of JESUS THAT IS GOD, IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN HIS ETERNAL SPIRIT, literally the Part of HIMSELF that has always carried out the will of the Father.

1. That does not prove the Godhead is triune.

2. It does not prove Jesus was eternal as His Father is.

Try again.

Quasar92

Placid · Oct 17, 2016

Hi RBA,

Quote from Post 1043:
Isaiah 9 verse 6 : (A Prophecy of a future event)
"For unto us A CHILD IS BORN, unto us a SON IS GIVEN . And his name shall be called wonderful, counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD,.THE EVERLASTING FATHER, And The PRINCE OF PEACE". So, we read that God is The "Child Born" "SON given" is God and The Father all at the same time.

Response: --- But what if when Isaiah gave Ahab a Sign in Isaiah 7:
"Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel."
--- And the Child Jesus that was born had two names, as it says in Matthew 1:
　
20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (Jesus means Savior.)
　
9:6 For unto us a Child is born --- (Jesus),
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
Immanuel means Messiah, or Christ, so we have Jesus Christ, --- Savior and Messiah. --- So, The Messiah, Christ, was 'God with us.'

Unto us a Son is given; --- (the Word, was called both God in John 1:1, and the Son of God in John 1:18):
18 NKJ: No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, [f] who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared Him, ([f], 'only begotten God.')
18 NASB: No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
18 NIV: No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
　
And John 1:14 says: --- "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. ---So in this relationship, the Word and Christ were in close harmony, so we could say 'the Word/Christ.' --- It says in 2 Corinthians 5:19, "That God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. --- So, God, the Word, was in Christ, --- And Christ in turn was in Jesus. --- So this fulfills the Words, 'God with us.' --- But Jesus was human, and not God.

So what if God stayed in heaven, and the Word/Christ came to earth to indwell Jesus who was born on earth. --- You see Jesus had to be born a human to have blood in His veins that could be drained out. --- God's word says, "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin." --- Neither the Word, nor Christ, nor the Holy Spirit, could shed blood. --- And it confirms that Jesus had to be human in Hebrews 4:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

--- (I am sorry, I don't know how to get your actual response whether it is a question or a statement. --- Can you tell me how to get a message?)

　

bluto · Oct 17, 2016

Oh boy placid, still denying the Deity of Jesus Christ in spite of the fact that you have been given numerous verses proving His Deity even by God the Father Himself at Hebrews 1:8. But wait, you deny this by making excuses that the passages do not mean what they say.

So let me try this? It says at John 14:23, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and "WE" will come to him and make "OUR" abode with him." Please notice that Jesus Christ couples Himself with the Father in such a way that He says, "We," and He also says "Our" abode in the person.

Now look at John 14:1, "Let not your heart be troubled; ye believe in God, believe also in Me." If Jesus Christ is "NOT" God then this would be blasphemous statement. Where in the scriptures are we told to believe in a man only (according to you) that is going to make his abode in a believer along with God the Father?

And as a side note, can you please tell me who Stephen was praying to with his dying breath at Acts 7:59,60?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

VCO · Oct 17, 2016

Quasar92 said:

Was not trying to prove anything to you. PROOF IS IN THE BELIEVING, which comes from having the Holy Spirit in your heart. Which you seem to be proving that you do not have HIM in your heart.

John 17:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with that glory I had with You before the world existed.

fredoheaven · Oct 17, 2016

VCO said:

You're absolutely correct VCO! Not only Quassar denying the full deity of the Biblical Christ, he also deny the deity of the Holy Spirit. All I have to hear from him is his circular human reasoning. That's all he has. Anti trinitarian here are such trouble, why? some say there is only "one" person of the Godhead, while Quassar is "two". I hope there will be no more 4 persons in the Godhead

Placid · Oct 18, 2016

Hi Bluto,

Quote from Post 1047:

Oh boy placid, still denying the Deity of Jesus Christ in spite of the fact that you have been given numerous verses proving His Deity even by God the Father Himself at Hebrews 1:8. But wait, you deny this by making excuses that the passages do not mean what they say.

Response: --- Two things you miss are, the word 'deity' is not in Scripture, and I showed above where neither Jesus nor Christ could be God because of their positions in heaven.

Jesus is the High Priest in the Sanctuary God erected at the right hand side of His throne. --- And Christ is 'seated at the right hand of God.' --- So if Christ was God, He would be sitting beside Himself. --- It says in Colossians 3:

1 "If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

--- Being 'raised up with Christ' means being 'born again by the Spirit of God.' --- Bluto, have you been 'born again'? --- Does the Holy Spirit guide you as you defend this unscriptural doctrine?

　

--- Secondly, as I said before John 1:3 says:

3 "All things were made through Him (the Word), and without Him nothing was made that was made."

So when you come to Hebrews where it says in 1:

2 God has in these last days spoken to us by His Son (the Word), whom He has appointed heir of all things, 'through whom also He made the worlds.'

--- "Through Whom He made the worlds," --- has to be the Word, who is addressed here, and again in 1:

8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."

This Son from heaven, through whom all things were made, was already called God in John 1:1 --- "And the Word was with God and the Word was God."

--- And Jesus was never chosen from among companions, was He?

　

Quote: So let me try this? It says at John 14:23, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and "WE" will come to him and make "OUR" abode with him." Please notice that Jesus Christ couples Himself with the Father in such a way that He says, "We," and He also says "Our" abode in the person.

Response: --- Another thing to notice is that when Jesus (the vessel) speaks wisdom or prophecy, it can be the Word, Christ, or the Holy Spirit, speaking through Him. --- Also, the Word was called the Son of God, --- Christ was called the Son of God, --- and Jesus was called the Son of God, but each one from a different level. --- And this was before the Day of Pentecost, so they were all manifested through Jesus.

Christ, who came from heaven can say 'WE' because of His relationship with God, but He doesn't have to be God to do it.

On earth, a believer can speak a message by the Holy Spirit that indwells Him, and call God his Father, but he doesn't become the Holy Spirit.

　

Quote: Now look at John 14:1, "Let not your heart be troubled; ye believe in God, believe also in Me." If Jesus Christ is "NOT" God then this would be blasphemous statement. Where in the scriptures are we told to believe in a man only (according to you) that is going to make his abode in a believer along with God the Father?

　

Response: --- We are given a good verse in John 5:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

--- This was Jesus' voice, but because the second part is prophetic, it would be Christ that was speaking, "He who hears My word" (the Gospel message of Jesus Christ), --- "and believes in Him (God) who sent "Me" (Jesus Christ)," has (already) that eternal life living in Him, (which is the Holy Spirit.) --- Once we are born of the Holy Spirit we enter into the Family of God, "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God."

--- "And shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." This is the 'assurance' of salvation, --- when we die as a believer, the Holy Spirit takes our 'saved soul' to heaven with Him.

Quote: And as a side note, can you please tell me who Stephen was praying to with his dying breath at Acts 7:59,60?

Response: --- Stephan was given a vision of Jesus standing at the right hand of God, so God and Jesus were both there in the vision, --- and it says:

59 He was calling on God, and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

--- Stephan, as a disciple, would have been with the crowd that watched Jesus die, and heard him commit His spirit unto God, --- and He called on God, as Jesus did, to forgive the people, and not lay this sin to their charge.

--- O that believers today would imitate Christ as Stephen did.

　

notbythesword · Oct 18, 2016

Paul specifically identified God as the Father numerous times. Never did he identify God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It seems logical to me that if a Triune God was what Paul believed in, then we should see evidence of this in his letters and writings. However, we always see him referring to God as solely the Father.

Paul even goes as far to say that God (the Father) is both the God of us, as well as our Lord Jesus. If a Trinitarian could tell me why this is I would appreciate it. Here are some examples…

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

Romans 1:7-8 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

1 Corinthians 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:2-3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,

Galatians 1:3-4 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

Ephesians 1:2-3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

Philippians 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 1:1-3 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,

2 Thessalonians 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:2-3 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

2 Timothy 1:2 To Timothy, a beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.

Philemon 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thanks.

bluto · Oct 18, 2016

notbythesword said:

Perhaps I can be of service sword! I hope you don't mind me calling you "sword" instead of typing out your whole name? And welcome to the boards. First of all I noticed your only centering on what the Apostle Paul wrote which is fine but Paul did say the following at Titus 2:13, "looking for the blessed hope and the apparing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." So you see the Apostle Paul clearly identifies Jesus Christ as God.

And since you brought up introductions did you read what the Apostle Peter stated at his introduction at 2 Peter 1:1? "Simon Petert, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, BY THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF OUR GOD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST." So here you have Peter identifying Jesus Christ as God.

Then there is what the Apostle John wrote that Thomas said at John 20:28 to Jesus Christ. "Thomas answered and said to Him/Jesus Christ, "My Lord and my God!" This is another declaration of Jesus Christ being indentified as God. Now, you made this statement sword? "Never did he identify God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

So let me ask you this question? Would you accept (especially in the New Testament) other writers declaring God the Father as God, the Son of God and God and the Holy Spirit being identified as God? I'm asking you why are you just limiting your question to the Apostle Paul? At Acts 5:3,4 here is what Peter said, "But Peter said to Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart TO LIE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT, and keep back some of the price of the land? vs4, While it remained unsold did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it tha tyou have conceived this deed in your heart? YOU HAVE NOT LIED TO MEN, BUT TO GOD."

And lastly, you should know I'm the one who started this whole thread and I highly suggest you read the opening post #1 where it explains how one can arrive at the Trinity teaching by using the Bible. You should also know (and this is very important) that recognition of the Trinity is not a requirment for salvation, it is the natural result of salvation. Salvation is not based upon theology, it is the result of a correct personal relationship with God in the person of His Son and by His Spirit.

If you don't know Jesus is God, (which btw I have given you evidence of that fact) than you don't know Him, Matthew 7:21-23 for you cannot know God and somehow miss the fact that He is God. If you don't think the Holy Spirit is God, than you are "non of His." Please read Romans 8:9-11. If you have any other questions I will be happy to address them. You can ask me anything you want.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

notbythesword · Oct 18, 2016

Hey bluto. Thanks for the quick response and polite reply. No problem calling me sword either. I’m aware of Christ being called God, as well as men even. I don’t consider the men who were called Gods to be God though. It's simply a title. The bible teaches that there are many who have the “title” as Lord or God, but that there is only one God…the Father.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

I accept all of scripture and not just Paul’s writings btw. I was just pointing out that one particular subject though. As far Thomas saying “my Lord and my God”, I believe that Thomas knew that God was speaking to him through Christ, and was with Christ, not that Christ was God. I read as follows.

John 8:28-29 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.”

John 14:24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

This is also applicable to the widely used Isaiah 9:6 verse. As God was with Jesus, not that God was Jesus. If Jesus was God then that would mean that God sent Himself right? Only Jesus said that He did not come of Himself, rather that God sent Him.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

bluto · Oct 18, 2016

notbythesword said:

Ok sword, I can easily address all the verses you provided and the issue of why Jesus is "subordinate" to His Father but first I want to focus on what you said about John 20:28 and what you think it means. That is that it does not mean Jesus is God. Ok fine, what excuse are you going to come up with regarding 2 Peter 1:1 and what Paul said at Titus 2:13 where Jesus is identified as God? Deal with those verses first and then will move on. And btw, by chance are you a unitarian? I ask because these are the same arguments they use to deny the deity of Jesus Christ.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

notbythesword · Oct 18, 2016

bluto said:

Just as I said previously, men were also called Gods in the bible, but we don’t consider them to be “the” God. It’s a title. There’s a difference in being called a God or Mighty God, and being called Almighty God, or God of the Most High. God was cleary identified as being the Father in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 as I showed.

Another example I could give you is by reading Psalm 110:1 in which you can clearly see the word Lord used twice when describing both God and Christ. One is the Lord of us and one in the Lord of Christ. It reads as follows.

Psalm 110:1 The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

This shows how one can have a personal Lord or God over themselves, and that this Lord can also have a Lord. I would ask, how can Jesus have a Lord if He is God? Another verse I would show that may further shed some light on this would be 1 Corinthians 11:3.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Clearly this flies in the face of a co-equal triune theology. Can God have a head? Can God have a Lord? To answer your question in regards to my denomination, I am a non-denominational protestant Christian. I just let scripture guide me, rather than what is mainstream.

If you are serious about me asking anything I want though…I have many questions that I could ask you

RobbyEarl · Oct 19, 2016

To the OP, Yes. In the first Chapter of Genesis and the first Chapter of John. Then when Jesus was baptized "a voice spoke from Heaven saying this is my Son in whom I am well pleased" then the Holy Spirit came upon in the form of a dove. We are created in the Image of God are we not? We have a soul/mind, a spirit, and a body. 3 in one are we not? All things that man does is done by 3 things wisdom, knowledge, and prudence. Prudence being the act of wisdom and knowledge. Then again in the beginning God said " Let Us make man in our own image". Then again, when Nimrod tried to build the tower, God said man has become like Us knowing good from evil.

Then you have Jesus telling the Pharisee's that before Abraham was I AM.

bluto · Oct 19, 2016

notbythesword said:

Of course men are called "gods" and I totally understand (according to you) since men are called "gods" that does not mean Jesus Christ is God with a big "G." But your forgetting that Jesus Christ is the one and only begotten Son of God as in there are no others according to John 3:16.

Can you give me or name me one person that claimed to be a god or the Messaih that was killed by stoning or cruxification or by any other means of being put to death? Even today people are running around the landscape claiming to be the Messiah and none of them have been killed for it. Why do you think Jesus Christ was killed/crucified on that cross? Why did the Jewish Pharisees put Him to death for blasphemy sword?

Look at John 5:17,18, "But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." Vs18, For this cause the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, (why sword) because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD."

And what about John 8:56-59? "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad," vs57, The Jews therefore said to Him, have You seen Abraham?" vs58, "Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS BORN, I AM." Vs 59, "There fore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple." So sword, what did Jesus say that so upset the Jews that they wanted to kill Him?

Then there is John 10:30, "I and the Father We are one." Vs31, "The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Vs32, "Jesus answered them, "I showed you manyh good works from the Father; for which of them ar eyou stoning Me?" Vs33, "The Jews answered Him, For a good work we do not stone You, but for BLASPHEMY; AND BECAUSE YOU BEING A MAN, MAKE YOURSELF OUT GOD." In fact if you read the rest of the chapter you will see that Jesus brings up Psalme 82:6 where it is written, "I said ye are gods, but you will die like the men you are." In other words, men are not god like Jesus Christ is God.

Then there is John 19:7, "The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because he made Himself out the Son of God." Why do the Jews want to kill Jesue for claiming to be the Son of God since the Jews themselves claim to be sons of God?

And of course don't forget the trial transcript of Jesus Christ at Matthew 26:59-68. Please read it and you tell me why the Jews "again" wanted to kill Him? In fact let me put that another way. In all these instances/verses I just gave you can you please tell me what was it that Jesus said the ticked off the Jews to the point of accusing Him of blasphemy resulting in His death on the cross? Finally you said this: "If you are serious about me asking anything I want though…I have many questions that I could ask you

" Yes, I'm dead serious on answering any question you may have from any place in your Bible.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

VCO · Oct 20, 2016

miknik5 said:

I do not think that is what it was referring to:

John 3:5-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Here Jesus uses the expression "born of water" and in the very next verse HE explains what He meant by that term. It is a reference to the breaking of water at natural child birth.

notbythesword · Oct 20, 2016

So I think that the first thing that you have to realize is that most of the Jews at the time did not accept Jesus as the Messiah, nor the Son. This is one of the reasons why they ended up conspiring against Him, even after he had been arrested. They even chose Barabbas over Jesus when given the choice. Clearly they did not know who Jesus was.

Yet it seems that many will point to what the Jews were saying about Jesus and use this to back their own doctrine…but should they? Are what the Jews said about Jesus’s nature more substantial than what Jesus Himself said about His nature?

If you look at John 5:17-18 you will see that the Jews thought that He was making Himself equal with God, simply for saying that He was the Son of God. Now in John 10:28-30 we read…

John 28-30 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”

Jesus wasn’t saying that He and His Father were the same person, but rather, had the same purpose. They both are on a mission to save and are “one” in purpose. You can see another example of this language used in 1 Corinthians 3:6-8.

1 Corinthians 3:6-8 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

However, the Jews did not understand that Jesus wasn’t trying to say that He was equal with God, rather, that He was simply stating that they both had the same purpose. If we continue to read John 10:31-33 it states…

John 10:31-33 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

Now if Jesus was God and this is what He meant, then He could of just said something like “I am God” only He doesn’t. He actually calls into question their logic by asking them why they think He is making Himself out to be God when He is just saying He is the Son. Moreover, they themselves had even been called Gods in scripture. Yet Jesus was just saying He was the Son of God. Continuing in John 10:34-36.

John 10:34-36 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

Jesus being the Son of God, does not mean equality with God. Nor did Jesus ever say anywhere in scripture that He was equal with God. The only mention of equality was done by the Jewish people of the time (who many of) were in err of who Jesus was. I believe in what Jesus clearly spoke about His nature to the Father…from His own lips.

Finally regarding John 8:26-29. Jesus said before Abram was I am. The “I am” simply means “I exist” or “I existed”. Jesus was saying that before Abraham existed… “I existed”. In the same way that God meant in Exodus 3:14. This does not mean that Jesus is God, rather, that Jesus existed before the time of Abraham.

In fact, Jesus questioned His disciples on this very topic. He wanted to make sure that they knew who He was. In Matthew 16:13-17 we read…

Matthew 16:13-17 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?” So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

VCO · Oct 20, 2016

Zechariah 14:9 (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.

NOW WHO WAS HE TALKING ABOUT? Look how it was worded in the HCSB:

Zechariah 14:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.

Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]10[/SUP][SUP] [/SUP]“You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He.
No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

1 Timothy 6:14-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]14[/SUP][SUP] [/SUP]to keep the command without fault or failure until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]God will bring this about in His own time. ⌊He is⌋ the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings, and the Lord of lords,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]the only One who has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; no one has seen or can see Him, to Him be honor and eternal might. Amen.

Revelation 17:14 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]These will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will conquer them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings. Those with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

Revelation 19:11-16 (NASB)
[SUP]11[/SUP][SUP] [/SUP]And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
[SUP]12[/SUP][SUP][/SUP][SUP] [/SUP]His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. [SUP]13 [/SUP]He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. [SUP]14[/SUP][SUP] [/SUP]And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

Hebrews 1:8 (NRSV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.

John 1:1 (YLT)
[SUP]1[/SUP][SUP] [/SUP]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

John 1:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14[/SUP][SUP] [/SUP]And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (ASV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

John 10:30 (HCSB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]The Father and I are one.”

Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

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