Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

notbythesword · Oct 21, 2016

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

Matthew 4:1-11 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’” Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: ‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and, ‘In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’” Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’” Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’” Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

HisHolly · Oct 21, 2016

notbythesword said:

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

Matthew 4:1-11 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’” Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: ‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and, ‘In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’” Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’” Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’” Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

Amazing!!!!
Great job

jaybird88 · Oct 21, 2016

notbythesword said:

good find. James is one of my favs and dont remember that one.

i have thought about the temptation a lot on this subject. why would the Most High need to be tempted? He is above all things and has no equal so there is no one that could do this. i have not met a Christian that believes Satan would have the power to bend the will of the Almighty into temptation. IMO Satan would know better. evil yes but far from stupid.

bluto · Oct 21, 2016

notbythesword said:

Ok sword, I'm back from a very very busy day and I have read all the latest post from you and others like jaybird and holly here. I completely understand all the questions you have raised because I have seem them hundreds of times before. At this time I am not going to address the issue of the Trinity. Right now I am going to address the issue of who is Jesus Christ according to the book of Philippians 2. Please, forget the Trinity and focus on Philippians 2 and pay special attention not only the words but the context.

Starting at vs1-4 the Apostle Paul is telling the Philippian believers to be of the same mind and be united in their thinking because they were only looking out for their own interest and not the interes of putting others first which is what love does. That's the context sword. Now, at vs 5 Paul is using Jesus Christ as an example of how their attitude should be.

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, Vs6, who/Jesus Christ, ALTHOUGH He existed in the form of God, (That word "although" means that "in spite of the fact") that Jesus Christ HAS ALWAYS EXISTED IN THE FORM/Morph of God. The Greek word "morph" means the outward expression of something or how something is manifested. John 1:18 backs this up when it says, "No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."

In other words, Jesus Christ is the physical and visble expression/manifestation of God. This is also what Jesus meant at John 14:9 when He told Philip, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, show us the Father?" Continuing on with vs6, "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped." That means that Jesus Christ did not regard His existing as God or in His divine postion, privilege, authority, honor and glory as something to be held onto at all costs.

He was willing to give it all up just like an eartly king who had all the wealth, prestige, position, honor, and glor and looked upon it not as something he would never give up, but who was willing to give all that up for a time in order to meet the needs of his people. He is not giving up his kingship, but the outward expression of it. And this is where vs7 comes in.

"but emptied himself, (how sword?) by taking the form of a bond-servant, being made in the likeness of a men." Jesus Christ went from one form as God to another form as a man. Vs8, "And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

So now sword, when you see Jesus Christ saying for example, "The Father is greater that I," or "I don't know the day or the hour of My return" or like you said above, "If Jesus Christ is God how come He was tempted since God cannot be tempted?" The answer to all these types of questions is because Jesus Christ is operating as a 100% contingent human being who depended on His Father for everything, just like Christians are suppose to do. Does this make sense to you sword? And like I said, I will answer any question you may have. In fact, I used the word "begotten" and I'm sure you may have a question about the word. Or how about, "firstborn," or the difference between the words "being" and "person," or "distince" as opposed to "separate." In short, go for it! Next I will address how the Trinity fits into this and why I believe the Trinity is "NOT" a requriment for salvatioin.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

notbythesword · Oct 21, 2016

bluto said:

Thanks for the polite response bluto. Always good to be able to have a constructive conversation. Hope your schedule lightens up for you. First I’ll give you my opinion on Philippians 2:5-11.

Philippians 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

First thing you need to understand is that this passage is talking about being equal in “form”. Jesus is in a spiritual form, as is the Father. Jesus did not consider it robbery to be in the same form as God. This passage does not speak of Jesus being equal in power, only form. Equal meaning the same.

Jesus then humbled Himself and obeyed His Fathers command to take on the appearance as a man. Jesus obeyed His Father even unto death. This is why God highly exalts Jesus, because Jesus obeyed the Father even to death.

God now gives Jesus (whom God just exalted) a new name that is above all other. God made Jesus Lord of Lords. Now every knee should bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I have no problems with this passage at all. In fact, I feel like it shows how God the Father was in control from start to finish. God can exalt whomever He chooses, and He exalted Jesus to where Jesus is. It’s important to remember that it was God who mad Jesus Lord. It was God who gave the commandments.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

VCO · Oct 21, 2016

notbythesword said:

John 2:19-22 (ESV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
[SUP]20 [/SUP] The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?”
[SUP]21 [/SUP] But he was speaking about the temple of his body.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

Acts 5:30 (HCSB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had murdered by hanging Him on a tree.

John 14:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

2 Corinthians 5:19 (ASV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

John 10:30 (HCSB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]The Father and I are one.”

VCO · Oct 21, 2016

jaybird88 said:

Ephesians 4:11-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.

notbythesword · Oct 21, 2016

VCO said:

“I and my Father are one” Surely this proves God is Jesus, right? Wrong. This oneness is further explained in scripture. Take a look at John 17:20-26.

John 17:20-26 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

So, this same oneness that Jesus has with His Father, we will now have with them too. Does this mean that we will be God? Of course not, because this oneness was never speaking of Christ being God.

jaybird88 · Oct 21, 2016

VCO said:

Exodus 23:2
"Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd,

VCO · Oct 22, 2016

jaybird88 said:

Ecclesiastes 5:1 (RSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Guard your steps when you go to the house of God; to draw near to listen is better than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know that they are doing evil.

Hebrews 10:23-25 (NRSV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who has promised is faithful.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

The following is an excerpt from the Doctrinal Statement, on one of the websites that Dr. John MacArthur Jr. is associated with. NOTE THAT THEY INCLUDE THE CROSS REFERENCES THAT VALIDATE THESE ARE NOT THE DOCTRINES OF MAN BUT THE TEACHINGS FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES.

GOD

We teach that there is but one living and true God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 45:5-7; 1 Corinthians 8:4), an infinite, all-knowing Spirit (John 4:24), perfect in all His attributes, one in essence, eternally existing in three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14)—each equally deserving worship and obedience.

GOD THE FATHER

We teach that God the Father, the first Person of the Trinity, orders and disposes all things according to His own purpose and grace (Psalm 145:8-9; 1 Corinthians 8:6). He is the Creator of all things (Genesis 1:1-31; Ephesians 3:9). As the only absolute and omnipotent Ruler in the universe, He is sovereign in creation, providence, and redemption (Psalm 103:19; Romans 11:36). His fatherhood involves both His designation within the Trinity and His relationship with mankind. As Creator He is Father to all men (Ephesians 4:6), but He is spiritual Father only to believers (Romans 8:14; 2 Corinthians 6:18). He has decreed for His own glory all things that come to pass (Ephesians 1:11). He continually upholds, directs, and governs all creatures and events (1 Chronicles 29:11). In His sovereignty He is neither author nor approver of sin (Habakkuk 1:13; John 8:38-47), nor does He abridge the accountability of moral, intelligent creatures (1 Peter 1:17). He has graciously chosen from eternity past those whom He would have as His own (Ephesians 1:4-6); He saves from sin all who come to Him through Jesus Christ; He adopts as his own all those who come to Him; and He becomes, upon adoption, Father to His own (John 1:12; Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:5; Hebrews 12:5-9).

GOD THE SON

We teach that Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Trinity, possesses all the divine excellencies, and in these He is coequal, consubstantial, and coeternal with the Father (John 10:30; 14:9).
We teach that God the Father created according to His own will, through His Son, Jesus Christ, by whom all things continue in existence and in operation (John 1:3; Colossians 1:15 17; Hebrews 1:2).
We teach that in the incarnation (God becoming man) Christ surrendered only the prerogatives of deity but nothing of the divine essence, either in degree or kind. In His incarnation, the eternally existing second Person of the Trinity accepted all the essential characteristics of humanity and so became the God Man (Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 2:9).
We teach that Jesus Christ represents humanity and deity in indivisible oneness (Micah 5:2; John 5:23; 14:9-10; Colossians 2:9).
We teach that our Lord Jesus Christ was virgin born (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23, 25; Luke 1:26 35); that He was God incarnate (John 1:1, 14); and that the purpose of the incarnation was to reveal God, redeem men, and rule over God's kingdom (Psalm 2:7-9; Isaiah 9:6; John 1:29; Philippians 2:9-11; Hebrews 7:25-26; 1 Peter 1:18-19).
We teach that, in the incarnation, the second person of the Trinity laid aside His right to the full prerogatives of coexistence with God and took on an existence appropriate to a servant while never divesting Himself of His divine attributes (Philippians 2:5-8).
We teach that our Lord Jesus Christ accomplished our redemption through the shedding of His blood and sacrificial death on the cross and that His death was voluntary, vicarious, substitutionary, propitiatory, and redemptive (John 10:15; Romans 3:24-25; 5:8; 1 Peter 2:24).
We teach that on the basis of the efficacy of the death of our Lord Jesus Christ, the believing sinner is freed from the punishment, the penalty, the power, and one day the very presence of sin; and that he is declared righteous, given eternal life, and adopted into the family of God (Romans 3:25; 5:8-9; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18).
We teach that our justification is made sure by His literal, physical resurrection from the dead and that He is now ascended to the right hand of the Father, where He now mediates as our Advocate and High Priest (Matthew 28:6; Luke 24:38-39; Acts 2:30-31; Romans 4:25; 8:34; Hebrews 7:25; 9:24; 1 John 2:1).
We teach that in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the grave, God confirmed the deity of His Son and gave proof that God has accepted the atoning work of Christ on the cross. Jesus' bodily resurrection is also the guarantee of a future resurrection life for all believers (John 5:26-29; 14:19; Romans 1:4; 4:25; 6:5-10; 1 Corinthians 15:20, 23).
We teach that Jesus Christ will return to receive the church, which is His Body, unto Himself at the rapture, and returning with His church in glory, will establish His millennial kingdom on earth (Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 20).
We teach that the Lord Jesus Christ is the One through whom God will judge all mankind (John 5:22-23):

Believers (1 Corinthians 3:10-15; 2 Corinthians 5:10)
Living inhabitants of the earth at His glorious return (Matthew 25:31-46).
Unbelieving dead at the Great White Throne (Revelation 20:11-15).

As the Mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5), the Head of His Body the church (Ephesians 1:22; 5:23; Colossians 1:18), and the coming universal King, who will reign on the throne of David (Isaiah 9:6; Luke 1:31-33), He is the final Judge of all who fail to place their trust in Him as Lord and Savior (Matthew 25:14-46; Acts 17:30-31).

GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT

We teach that the Holy Spirit is a divine Person, eternal, underived, possessing all the attributes of personality and deity, including intellect (1 Corinthians 2:10-13), emotions (Ephesians 4:30), will (1 Corinthians 12:11), eternality (Hebrews 9:14), omnipresence (Psalm 139:7-10), omniscience (Isaiah 40:13-14), omnipotence (Romans 15:13), and truthfulness (John 16:13). In all the divine attributes He is coequal and consubstantial with the Father and the Son (Matthew 28:19; Acts 5:3-4; 28:25-26; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 13:14; and Jeremiah 31:31-34 with Hebrews 10:15-17).
We teach that it is the work of the Holy Spirit to execute the divine will with relation to all mankind. We recognize His sovereign activity in creation (Genesis 1:2), the incarnation (Matthew 1:18), the written revelation (2 Peter 1:20-21), and the work of salvation (John 3:5-7).
We teach that the work of the Holy Spirit in this age began at Pentecost when He came from the Father as promised by Christ (John 14:16-17; 15:26) to initiate and complete the building of the Body of Christ, which is His church (1 Corinthians 12:13). The broad scope of His divine activity includes convicting the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment; glorifying the Lord Jesus Christ and transforming believers into the image of Christ (John 16:7-9; Acts 1:5; 2:4; Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Ephesians 2:22).
We teach that the Holy Spirit is the supernatural and sovereign Agent in regeneration, baptizing all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). The Holy Spirit also indwells, sanctifies, instructs, empowers them for service, and seals them unto the day of redemption (Romans 8:9; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Ephesians 1:13).
We teach that the Holy Spirit is the divine Teacher, who guided the apostles and prophets into all truth as they committed to writing God's revelation, the Bible (2 Peter 1:19-21). Every believer possesses the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit from the moment of salvation, and it is the duty of all those born of the Spirit to be filled with (controlled by) the Spirit (John 16:13; Romans 8:9; Ephesians 5:18; 1 John 2:20, 27).
We teach that the Holy Spirit administers spiritual gifts to the church. The Holy Spirit glorifies neither Himself nor His gifts by ostentatious displays, but He does glorify Christ by implementing His work of redeeming the lost and building up believers in the most holy faith (John 16:13-14; Acts 1:8; 1 Corinthians 12:4-11; 2 Corinthians 3:18).
We teach, in this respect, that God the Holy Spirit is sovereign in the bestowing of all His gifts for the perfecting of the saints today, and that speaking in tongues and the working of sign miracles in the beginning days of the church were for the purpose of pointing to and authenticating the apostles as revealers of divine truth, and were never intended to be characteristic of the lives of believers (1 Corinthians 12:4-11; 13:8-10; 2 Corinthians 12:12; Ephesians 4:7 12; Hebrews 2:1-4).

jaybird88 · Oct 22, 2016

VCO said:

i also made a note to myself that they excluded the mountains of scripture that raise questions of their doctrines. but then again thats the only way to make some doctrines of man work.
how many times does Jesus or the 12 contradict themselves or the holy scriptures, zero. and thats the difference between laws of the Most High and laws of man

notbythesword · Oct 22, 2016

I have some questions. I believe that Jesus is the Divine Son of God. That Jesus died for my sins. I accept Him as my Lord and Savior. I’ve repented for my sins. I have been born again. Is this not good enough for my salvation? Am I not going to be saved because my God is a single person, rather than a three person God?

I have shown many verses that show how the Father was directly identified as God, by both Jesus and the apostles. Does anyone have any direct quotes from Jesus or the apostles of God being identified as the Father, Son, and Spirit combined? If not, then this means that one has to “infer” that this is the case.

I personally feel that a direct statement of who God was is more powerful than who some may “infer” God to be. Why is an assumption more powerful than a direct quote? You see, I don’t need to “infer” who God is, I can view direct quotes.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

I have respect for all Christians, of all denominations, who are seeking after the truth. Sometimes it just takes a while to step outside the constraints of doctrines and look objectively at scripture.

bluto · Oct 22, 2016

notbythesword said:

You keep saying the same thing sword by telling me, "But you don't understand?" The Bible explicitly identifies the one God as three distinct persons and you have been given rock solid proof of this fact. The problem you have is you do not accept this fact and the way you do it is by quoting scriptures that contradict other scriptures. In short, you do not know how to "reconcile" what appears to be contradictions.

You just said in the post, "I believe Jesus is the Divine Son of God." Then you say in this same post, "John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." The implication being that Jesus Christ is not God. If the Father alone is the only true God, there would be no need to distinguish Him as "the Father" and one would ONLY see the same continued metaphorical applications of that term, but you don't.

I gave you verses by the Apostles and God the Father Himself that idnetifies Jesus Christ as God. Hebrews 1:8, 2 Peter 1:1, Titus 2:13, John 1:1, John 20:28 and of course at the trial of Jesus Christ He was accused of blasphemy for claiming to be God. And what do you do or say? You have excuses for all of these references that they don't mean what they say because, "we don't understand." So the question for you is this? Is Jesus Christ God Almighty or not? In fact I can even prove Jesus Christ is God Almighty from the Old Testament as well as the Holy Spirit being a distinct person of God.

And lastly, as I said in my last post to you in which I gave you Philippians 2 the reason why Jesus Christ (who according to the Greek grammar always existed His incarnation) lowered Himself by becoming a man thereby doing everything that was pleasing to His Father. After he resurrected all His power, glory, honor etc. was returned back to Him.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

HisHolly · Oct 22, 2016

Col 1:19
It pleased God to have the fullness of the Godhead dwell in Him..

So many times it says He was pleased. It wouldn't need to be stated if indeed they were but 1.. a given is given.. God can't be displeased with Himself

HisHolly · Oct 22, 2016

The writer of every epistle made clear distinction of them.

Placid · Oct 22, 2016

Hi Posters,
Quote from notbythesword in Post 1066:
I have been told on numerous occasions that my salvation is at risk if I don’t adhere to the trinity doctrine.
Quote from Jaybird88, Post 1067:
I've been told the same thing. --- Yet on sundays half the churches are having sermons on this very issue reassuring the congregations that the doctrine is in fact biblical and you must, above all things, believe in the doctrine.

And I have been told also, "If you don't believe that Jesus is God you're going to hell."
I was quite surprised to hear that from a Bible teacher because that is a line I found in Roman Catholic teaching, but it is contrary to all Scriptural teaching on Salvation.
　
However, Bluto in his long and active topic is more gracious to us by saying:
Quote from Bluto, Post 1052:
"You should also know (and this is very important) that recognition of the Trinity is not a requirment for salvation, it is the natural result of salvation. Salvation is not based upon theology, it is the result of a correct personal relationship with God in the person of His Son and by His Spirit."

He has conceded one more thing which is in Post 893:
Hi placid! You said this: "Actually since I wrote in Post 801 that 'none of the language of trinity is in the Bible,' you couldn't have read it there."
(Bluto) You're right, none of the language of the trinity is in the Bible."
　
Bluto acknowledged that none of the language is in the Scriptures, --- but it doesn't seem to matter to those who believe what they have learned from others, --- that it is not in the Scriptures.
--- A common saying is, --- "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!"
　
So let's examine the terms, and language of trinity in the Strong's Concordance, which is based on the King James which was the Bible we started out with.
The 'deity' of Christ, --- Not found, because the word 'deity' is not in the Bible'
The 'divinity' of Christ --- Not found --- since 'divinity' is not in the Scripture.
The word 'divine' is used twice in 2 Peter 1, which speak of God's 'divine power,' and 'divine nature,' --- but no 'divine beings.'
--- 'God Incarnate,' 'incarnation' and 'pre-incarnation' are not found in Scripture.
The words 'triune,' tri-unity,' and 'trinity,' are not found in the Scripture.
The term, 'co-equal,' --- is not in the Scripture
The concept of trinity, --- it was obviously not known to the Apostles, or they would have taught it.
--- A verse that says, 'Jesus is God,' --- or a verse where Jesus said, "I am God." --- No.
--- A verse that says, 'Christ is God,' --- or a verse where Christ said, "I am God." --- No.
And there are no verses that say Jesus was in heaven before He was born on earth.
--- And no 'God-man.' ---But it does say that "Jesus was born on earth."
--- There are no places where it says, 'the Word was Jesus,' or that says, 'Jesus was the Word.'

John 1:1 says, "The Word was with God and the Word was God." --- The Word is also called the Son of God in John 1:18. (Only begotten God or only begotten Son) --- And it was through the Word that all things were made, John 1:3 --- And it was the Word that came down from heaven to indwell Jesus, John 1:14.
　
Basically, there is no wording in the Scripture that supports the concept of trinity.
--- I have no argument with those who believe in a trinity, after they have believed in God and accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, --- But to try to impose it on others who are saved by Faith and follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, --- can cause unnecessary division among believers.
--- I say, "If you believe it, then live it, but don't force it on others."

Placid

notbythesword · Oct 22, 2016

bluto said:

Bluto, I think you misunderstand what divine means. The angels are of a divine being, aren’t they? They are not merely flesh and blood. Nor do I view Christ and merely a man, but of divine being. Just because you believe Jesus is divine, does not mean you have to believe He is God.

Divine: relating to or coming from God or a god

As far as me not knowing how to reconcile contradicting verses, I think that this is in the eye of the beholder. You are going to feel that you have harmonized scripture to back your particular doctrine, just as I feel I have done the same looking objectively.

You mentioned how Philippians 2 shows how Jesus lowered Himself by becoming a man, then His power was returned back to Him. However, it was God who gave this command for Jesus to take the form of a man. Furthermore, it was God who then “exalted” Jesus and sits Him at His right hand.

Jesus specifically said that He did not come on His own accord, but that it was the Father who sent Him. This shows that Jesus was commanded by God before He was in earthly form. God was always in control, even before Jesus’s incarnation.

John 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

As far as John 1:1 is concerned, I think that you might want to look up that verse in an interlinear translation and ask yourself why John spelled one God Theon and the other Theos. In addition, why was the definite article “the” only placed in front of Theon. Seems odd if He was trying to show that they were the same God. I’m sure you know that there are other ways to translate that verse.

John 1:1 Interlinear: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

I’d discuss more but I have to head in to work.

1LonelyKnight · Oct 22, 2016

Such a long thread - a testament to perseverance, but surprising that it takes 55 pages ...

The tanakh (old testament) is three parts - one document;
1) Law - the law of Moses, ......................... = father = authority
2) Prophets, ................................................. = son .. = compassion
3) Psalms (first book of Wisdom/writings) = spirit = discernment

These three are one ...

The entire old testament speaks to the coming messiah, fulfilled in Jesus.

After the resurrection Jesus comes to his disciples ...

These three pillars of truth, now exemplified, clarified and amplified in Jesus as messiah (Law, prophets, wisdom = authority, compassion, discernment = father, son, spirit) are also the three pillars of the Tree of Life which we see in scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

Good exegesis of this concept of the triune, non-modal nature of godliness is not hard to do. We see Jesus take authority and power over the arrogance of scribes and Pharisees and money changers; teaching and rebuking them. We see Jesus having compassion to teach, heal, forgive and lay his life on the line for the ignorant, lame and impoverished. We see him discerning between good and evil, arrogance and ignorance - and justly warning many of condemnation, while calling many to reconcilliation.

Does God pray to himself and many similar questions are easily answered by such exegesis (Jesus meditated and contemplated in his position as son, on the authority of truth of the Father within). I and the Father are one ...

VCO · Oct 22, 2016

jaybird88 said:

IT ALL COMPUTES BECAUSE HE IS IN ME AND I AM IN HIM. I SEE THE DOCTRINE OF THE HOLY TRINITY AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH, AND IT IS CONFIRMED IN MY HEART BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

VCO · Oct 22, 2016

jaybird88 said:

Yes, HIS WORD does not contradict itself, when interpreted correctly. However refusing to listen to all Bible Teachers is as WRONG, as listening to ALL of them. WE ARE RESPONSIBLE, to search the scriptures daily to see if a Bible Teacher is teaching the Truth. We are to stop listening to those we find to be teaching error, and submit to learn from those who teach the Truth and are gifted by the Holy Spirit to TEACH. I learned that back in the early 80's, when I started to get hooked into listening to Kenneth Copeland. It did not take long for me to see that He was a False Teacher.

Acts 17:11 (NIV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

If the Bereans took the time check out the teachings of Paul, then we are responsible to check the teachings of those who teach us today, examining the Scriptures to see if they teach the Truth; NOT REFUSING TO BE TAUGHT by spiritually gifted Bible Teachers.

Here are the majority of the Bible Teachers that I checked out the Berean way, and having found they taught the Truth, I then submitted myself to being discipled by their teachings.

The Bible teachers that have had the most influence on my spiritual growth are:

Dr. John MacArthur, Jr. - Grace to You sermons dating back to the early 70s - free to listen to.
Dr. Adrian Rogers - Listen to Adrian Rogers - Love Worth Finding Radio Online
Dr. Charles Stanley - http://www.intouch.org/
Dr. Richard Lee - First Redeemer Church | Duluth | Cumming | Alpharetta
Dr. Zola Levitt - http://www.levitt.tv/media/watch/118 - some free - videos
Dr. Ed Young - Page Not Found
Dr. Gil Rugh - http://www.ihcc.org/ - free sermons dating back to the late 70s - free
Dr. Chuck Swindoll - Listen to Chuck Swindoll - Insight for Living Radio Online
Dr. Walter Martin - https://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/martin_walter/
Dr. Ben Haden - Why
Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost - Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost (1915–2014) -
Dr. Dave Hunt - https://www.thebereancall.org/
Eliezer Urbach, associated with Jews for Jesus - http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/realtime/october-2009/09

As well as the Pastors of Churches that I attended; Pastor Neil Berry and Pastor Gordan Broadbent especially.

Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

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