Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?
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Colossians 1:16-20 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
John 17:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with that glory I had with Youbefore the world existed.
1
The Jews hold to the law (torah) because it is for them to control the ID (fleshly, sensual desires) and the EGO (desires of the mind). The law alone is not enough as it must be inculcated and assimilated as a new nature. This requires teaching (prophets or "prophesying") - this is the second part of Godliness. Thirdly understanding must take place in the mind and heart. With understanding comes Wisdom.
The ability to see longer term consequences. If THE LAW says the speed limit is 35, and one finds they can go 37 and see no immediate consequences, one begins to see the law as false, trickery, of no value. Experience, the ability to see Reason (LOGOS) goes beyond the immediate. Going 37 and getting away with it is a sort of Gnostic grace. Taken to an extreme the person then goes 45 and etc. New circumstances take effect - a slippery road, a tired or distracted driver, more traffic, pedestrians, an animal crossing, darkness, and etc. - and now the law is naturally in place as in these cases someone is bound to get injured, maimed or killed. To see this LOGOS is wisdom. To deny or reject it is human nature - back to the ID and EGO.
Thus the GODLINESS is three parts in one, the LAW itself, the teaching or PROPHESYING of the law to help assimilate the REASON for the law and WISDOM to see the longer term more complex cause and effect relationships.
Human nature again creeps in and makes offices or stations (Modes or modality) for each part; a LAW office of Jehovah Pharisees, Lawyers, Police etc to make and enforce laws; a TEACHING office of preachers and teachers and speech makers and media to impart some idea, but not holistic understanding. Thirdly a PHILOSOPHY office is established that imparts 'chit happens' and we'll make a pill to cure it. Because of this modality man and his society FAIL over time.
Cancer is not instantaneous, takes time and many players, actions/behaviors and mindsets (the tobacco company, the tobacco farm, the advertiser and seller, the smoker, the continued habit of smoking (one cigarette won't kill a person), the nicotine patch company, the doctor, nurse medical device company, and hospital, the government tax collector, and of course the funeral director.)
This is why the three are and must be one to lead to salvation. The tanakh is one composed of three integrated parts. The tree of Life is one composed of three integrated parts - G- O-D. This is the triune ( three parts in one integrated whole) nature of Godliness. Moses knew and foretold of more to come than just the law. This is why the entire three part tanakh had to be in place before messiah's coming. The Pharisees knew and understood this in Jesus being all three at the proper time, this God as one.
The ability to see longer term consequences. If THE LAW says the speed limit is 35, and one finds they can go 37 and see no immediate consequences, one begins to see the law as false, trickery, of no value. Experience, the ability to see Reason (LOGOS) goes beyond the immediate. Going 37 and getting away with it is a sort of Gnostic grace. Taken to an extreme the person then goes 45 and etc. New circumstances take effect - a slippery road, a tired or distracted driver, more traffic, pedestrians, an animal crossing, darkness, and etc. - and now the law is naturally in place as in these cases someone is bound to get injured, maimed or killed. To see this LOGOS is wisdom. To deny or reject it is human nature - back to the ID and EGO.
Thus the GODLINESS is three parts in one, the LAW itself, the teaching or PROPHESYING of the law to help assimilate the REASON for the law and WISDOM to see the longer term more complex cause and effect relationships.
Human nature again creeps in and makes offices or stations (Modes or modality) for each part; a LAW office of Jehovah Pharisees, Lawyers, Police etc to make and enforce laws; a TEACHING office of preachers and teachers and speech makers and media to impart some idea, but not holistic understanding. Thirdly a PHILOSOPHY office is established that imparts 'chit happens' and we'll make a pill to cure it. Because of this modality man and his society FAIL over time.
Cancer is not instantaneous, takes time and many players, actions/behaviors and mindsets (the tobacco company, the tobacco farm, the advertiser and seller, the smoker, the continued habit of smoking (one cigarette won't kill a person), the nicotine patch company, the doctor, nurse medical device company, and hospital, the government tax collector, and of course the funeral director.)
This is why the three are and must be one to lead to salvation. The tanakh is one composed of three integrated parts. The tree of Life is one composed of three integrated parts - G- O-D. This is the triune ( three parts in one integrated whole) nature of Godliness. Moses knew and foretold of more to come than just the law. This is why the entire three part tanakh had to be in place before messiah's coming. The Pharisees knew and understood this in Jesus being all three at the proper time, this God as one.
Yes, indeed Jesus was the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD. The first living creation of God. Created before all other creations. It pleased the Father that His Son would have all the preeminence of creation. Can God have a point where He has no life (be dead) and then become the firstborn from the dead?
You also need to understand that it was still God who was the creator. Jesus was the vessel in which God created “through” and “for”. Also, this particular verse was talking about the fullness of creation that dwelt within Jesus, not God. This passage is talking about creation.
You have been deceived into believing that Colossians 1:19 reads: “For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.” The heavily Trinitarian influenced ESV indeed reads this way. However, look at the NKJV translation. It reads: “For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell”…no word God. Which one is correct?
It’s actually talking about the fullness of God’s creation. Everything being created through Jesus and for Jesus. The fullness of creation exists within, and started with, the Son. If you wonder if the word “God” is actually in Colossians 1:19, here’s a link to an interlinear translation so that you can see for yourself.
Colossians 1:19 Interlinear: because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
With as much passion and conviction that you carry forth towards identifying God as a Triune being, I carry forth with identifying God as the Father. It took me many nights of prayer, asking God for guidance, that I finally started to see things clearly.
When I was younger, I used to just take the Trinity for granted, as both my parents were Trinitarians. However, I kept running into problems with conflicting verses as to Jesus’s identity. I thought to myself, if God is not the author of confusion, why are there so many conflicting verses regarding Gods nature vs the Trinity?
I told God that I was knocking at the door and asked if He would open it for me. I then started reading scripture more clearly, without any presuppositions formed to guide me. I began to see just how weak the Trinity Doctrine actually was. I felt that God had opened my eyes.
In fact, it’s why we see forgeries like 1 John 5:7 being inserted into scripture by a Trinitarian dominated church. Erasmus never intended the “these three are one” verse to be entered into scripture. He never saw this translation. He was pressured and given a “later written” manuscript that showed this translation.
None of the early manuscripts contain the “these three are one” language in them. This is why many translations are now having to admit that indeed 1 John 5:7 is a forgery and removing it from their translations. Just look at 1 John 5:7 in a King James and compare it to the ESV.
These are just a few among many evidences that debunk the Trinity as being Biblically solid.
You also need to understand that it was still God who was the creator. Jesus was the vessel in which God created “through” and “for”. Also, this particular verse was talking about the fullness of creation that dwelt within Jesus, not God. This passage is talking about creation.
You have been deceived into believing that Colossians 1:19 reads: “For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.” The heavily Trinitarian influenced ESV indeed reads this way. However, look at the NKJV translation. It reads: “For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell”…no word God. Which one is correct?
It’s actually talking about the fullness of God’s creation. Everything being created through Jesus and for Jesus. The fullness of creation exists within, and started with, the Son. If you wonder if the word “God” is actually in Colossians 1:19, here’s a link to an interlinear translation so that you can see for yourself.
Colossians 1:19 Interlinear: because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
With as much passion and conviction that you carry forth towards identifying God as a Triune being, I carry forth with identifying God as the Father. It took me many nights of prayer, asking God for guidance, that I finally started to see things clearly.
When I was younger, I used to just take the Trinity for granted, as both my parents were Trinitarians. However, I kept running into problems with conflicting verses as to Jesus’s identity. I thought to myself, if God is not the author of confusion, why are there so many conflicting verses regarding Gods nature vs the Trinity?
I told God that I was knocking at the door and asked if He would open it for me. I then started reading scripture more clearly, without any presuppositions formed to guide me. I began to see just how weak the Trinity Doctrine actually was. I felt that God had opened my eyes.
In fact, it’s why we see forgeries like 1 John 5:7 being inserted into scripture by a Trinitarian dominated church. Erasmus never intended the “these three are one” verse to be entered into scripture. He never saw this translation. He was pressured and given a “later written” manuscript that showed this translation.
None of the early manuscripts contain the “these three are one” language in them. This is why many translations are now having to admit that indeed 1 John 5:7 is a forgery and removing it from their translations. Just look at 1 John 5:7 in a King James and compare it to the ESV.
These are just a few among many evidences that debunk the Trinity as being Biblically solid.
Good grief sword, holley, placid, quasar and others that believe Jesus Christ was the first living creation of God. Give me one verse in the entire Bible that teaches that Jesus Christ was the first creation of God? And, if you have a mind to use Proverbs 8 watch how easy it is for me do dismantle/exegete the verses properly. Proverbs 8:22 is "NOT" teaching Jesus Christ is created.
Secondly, do me a favor sword, tell me what Revelation 3:14 is teaching about Jesus Christ? Is He first created in this verse? And lastly, can you please (and this applies to the others I mentioned in this post) give me a definition of the Trinity? I'm asking you and others for your understanding of the Trinity?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Secondly, do me a favor sword, tell me what Revelation 3:14 is teaching about Jesus Christ? Is He first created in this verse? And lastly, can you please (and this applies to the others I mentioned in this post) give me a definition of the Trinity? I'm asking you and others for your understanding of the Trinity?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
H
I already said what I get from scripture. I don't go back and forth with obstinate individuals unless they are directly opposing the freedom we have in Jesus to have no stumbling block.. Trinity, same in essence not in person or being.. 3 of authority with different positions. None completely equal bc they do not operate in another's place. Are they any less, no. The same, absolutely not.
Good grief sword, holley, placid, quasar and others that believe Jesus Christ was the first living creation of God. Give me one verse in the entire Bible that teaches that Jesus Christ was the first creation of God? And, if you have a mind to use Proverbs 8 watch how easy it is for me do dismantle/exegete the verses properly. Proverbs 8:22 is "NOT" teaching Jesus Christ is created.
Secondly, do me a favor sword, tell me what Revelation 3:14 is teaching about Jesus Christ? Is He first created in this verse? And lastly, can you please (and this applies to the others I mentioned in this post) give me a definition of the Trinity? I'm asking you and others for your understanding of the Trinity?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Secondly, do me a favor sword, tell me what Revelation 3:14 is teaching about Jesus Christ? Is He first created in this verse? And lastly, can you please (and this applies to the others I mentioned in this post) give me a definition of the Trinity? I'm asking you and others for your understanding of the Trinity?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Proverbs 8:22-31 “The Lord made at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began. I was born when there were no watery depths and no springs filled with water. I was delivered before the mountains and hills were established, before He made the land, the fields, or the first soil on earth. I was there when He established the heavens, when He laid out the horizon on the surface of the ocean, when He placed the skies above, when the fountains of the ocean gushed out, when He set a limit for the sea so that the waters would not violate His command, when He laid out the foundations of the earth. I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him. I was rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race.
Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
1 John 4:9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
You asked about Revelation 3:14 but I’m not exactly sure why? It seems to indicate that the words of the Amen (the Word), the faithful witness, is the first of God’s creations.
Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
Obviously, Revelation 3:14 is speaking of Christ. If we read just a little further down, we read in verse 21…
Revelation 3:21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
As for you wanting to know how I understand the Trinity…
It is the view that there is a Godhead consisting of three co-equal, co-eternal persons that make up one divine being.
I know what "essence" means and at first you said, "Essence= nature.. character, quality, core, desires." Right, essence means nature so does the Son of God and the Holy Spirit have the same essence/nature as God the Father? All this requireis is a yes or no answer. I'm not asking you about "three" of anything. So again, does the Son and Holy Spirit have the same essence/nature of God the Father?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Okay I’ll post your favorite passage first
Proverbs 8:22-31 “The Lord made at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began. I was born when there were no watery depths and no springs filled with water. I was delivered before the mountains and hills were established, before He made the land, the fields, or the first soil on earth. I was there when He established the heavens, when He laid out the horizon on the surface of the ocean, when He placed the skies above, when the fountains of the ocean gushed out, when He set a limit for the sea so that the waters would not violate His command, when He laid out the foundations of the earth. I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him. I was rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race.
Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
1 John 4:9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
You asked about Revelation 3:14 but I’m not exactly sure why? It seems to indicate that the words of the Amen (the Word), the faithful witness, is the first of God’s creations.
Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
Obviously, Revelation 3:14 is speaking of Christ. If we read just a little further down, we read in verse 21…
Revelation 3:21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
As for you wanting to know how I understand the Trinity…
It is the view that there is a Godhead consisting of three co-equal, co-eternal persons that make up one divine being.
Proverbs 8:22-31 “The Lord made at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began. I was born when there were no watery depths and no springs filled with water. I was delivered before the mountains and hills were established, before He made the land, the fields, or the first soil on earth. I was there when He established the heavens, when He laid out the horizon on the surface of the ocean, when He placed the skies above, when the fountains of the ocean gushed out, when He set a limit for the sea so that the waters would not violate His command, when He laid out the foundations of the earth. I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him. I was rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race.
Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
1 John 4:9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
You asked about Revelation 3:14 but I’m not exactly sure why? It seems to indicate that the words of the Amen (the Word), the faithful witness, is the first of God’s creations.
Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
Obviously, Revelation 3:14 is speaking of Christ. If we read just a little further down, we read in verse 21…
Revelation 3:21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
As for you wanting to know how I understand the Trinity…
It is the view that there is a Godhead consisting of three co-equal, co-eternal persons that make up one divine being.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
H
I know what "essence" means and at first you said, "Essence= nature.. character, quality, core, desires." Right, essence means nature so does the Son of God and the Holy Spirit have the same essence/nature as God the Father? All this requireis is a yes or no answer. I'm not asking you about "three" of anything. So again, does the Son and Holy Spirit have the same essence/nature of God the Father?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
J
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, “Who do people say I am?”
[SUP]28 [/SUP]They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.”
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.”
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.
VCO im looking at this and i can not find where Jesus tells peter his answer is the only correct one and everyone else is wrong. wishful thinking maybe?
not accepting the tri9nity and denying the Spirit in the Son are 2 very very very different things. this is a perfect example of taking the doctrine to far. not a believer, no salvation, etc etc all because someone doesent accept a law of man.