Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

[Placid]

Hi Bluto,

Quote from Post 1240:
I want to focus on this statement, "So, if the Word who was a Spiritual being, indwelt Jesus, then it was the Word who spoke through Jesus." Who is this "Spiritual being" that you yourself identify as the "Word" that spoke through Jesus Christ? I ask because the "Word/Logos" who became flesh is Jesus Christ according to the Apostle John.

Do you want to know how I know that fact? Read 1 John 1:1-3, "What was from the beginning what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, CONCERNING THE WORD OF LIFE. vs2, and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witnesss and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was WITH the Father and was manifested to us--vs3, what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, that you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ."

It cannot be more clear placid as to the identity of the Word. In fact, the Apostle John repeats three times, "what we have seen and heard" to make his point clearly identifying Jesus Christ, (you know, the one who became flesh) as the Word/Logos.
　
Response: --- Yes it does say 'that which we have seen and heard,' which was the voice of Jesus, but spoken through Him by the Word. They saw Jesus as the Manifestation of God on earth, and heard His voice.

Notice that the Word was there in Luke 1:
35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
It mentions the Holy Spirit that gives life, and the 'power of the Highest,' --- the Word (Logos, the creative power of God).
Remember it says "All things were made through Him" and I guess that includes the intricate creation of a pregnancy without a human father.

--- But the Word could not be part of the blood body, so the blood body came from Mary and was separate from the Spiritual beings, and appeared in physical form, so Jesus could be seen.--- The Spitiual beings from heaven could only indwell a fleshly body, or a 'water body.'
This is hinted at, but without any explanation in 1 John 5:
6 "This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth."
　
Some of the physical appearances of heavenly beings in the OT were perhaps in a 'water body' that was alive by the Holy Spirit, --- and that is understood to be the kind of bodies that Adam and Eve had before the fall. --- But that's another story.
Had Jesus come in a 'water body' He could have taught the people, healed the sick, raised the dead, been the Manifestation of God in the world, --- but He could not have died for the sins of the world.

The Scripture says, "Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin." --- Jesus had to come in a flesh and blood body. --- He had to die in the flesh, and shed His blood, then be resurrected in a Spiritual body. --- However this Spiritual body of Jesus Christ was seen after the resurrection, --- when He chose to appear among them.

But the flesh and blood body was indwelt by the Word, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. --- (At least some of the time, but I believe the Word [Logos] may have only been there part of the time), --- and in the ascension, Christ returned to heaven to sit at the right hand of God, Colossians 3:1, and Jesus became our High Priest in the Sanctuary of the Tabernacle of God, Hebrews 8:1.
　
Notice again in John 1:
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
--- When John said, among 'us' and 'we' beheld His glory, --- he referred to himself and Andrew who were the first disciples, as is found in the context.

--- I don't think Jesus glowed all of the time, but Peter, James, and John, saw His Glory on the Mount of Transfiguration in Matthew 17:
1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves;
2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
--- The Shekina glory of heaven surrounded them. --- So John "Beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father."
Jesus was called the Son of God, and represented God on earth, as well as demonstrating the power and wisdom of God among the people, --- but Jesus was in a flesh and blood body, that was the Perfect Sacrifice for sin.

 

[Placid]

While we are on the subject of "The Word became flesh," --- there are a few more things which may be difficult to understand, but I will try to explain.
--- The Word could not relate to a blood body, and this is why the transition was made in Malachi 3:1, from the Word (the LORD of hosts), --- to Christ, who was called 'the Son of Man' and could relate by identifying with Jesus even to the times when it said the blood of Christ was shed.

An early mention of the 'Son of Man' is in Daniel 7:
13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.

He is mentioned this way in Matthew 25:
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
--- (The righteous from the unrighteous.) --- He was earlier chosen to be the ruler of the nations to bring them all in subjection to Himself before He handed them over to God.
--- It says this also, in Romans 14:
10 "For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
　
--- And the 'nations of the earth' are brought under His control as mentioned, where it speaks of the Resurrected Christ in 1 Corinthians 15:
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He was seen by Cephas (Peter), then by the twelve.
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep (in death).
7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
　
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all (believers) shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him (Christ), then the Son (of Man) Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.
　

 

[Placid]

However, there is one more important place where the Word was directly involved.
It began when God sent the Word (called the LORD of hosts) in Isaiah 48:
16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me."

And it follows this up in Hebrews 10:
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’" --- (It was written in Isaiah 48:16.)
　
　
So God sent the Word to earth to do the job of organizing and implimenting the plan of redemption of mankind. --- The body that was prepared was the human body of Jesus, but it had to be without sin for a perfect Scrifice.
Christ, the Son of Man, and the Word, were with Moses in the wilderness, and Christ is called on again since He was able to relate to mankind.
　
Near the end of the Mission it says this, which has been misunderstood in John 17:
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
　
This is the 'Word' speaking because in 3, He speaks in the first person to God and refers to Jesus Christ in the third person.
In 4, He says, --- "I have finished the work which You have given Me to do."
And in 5, He says, --- "With the glory which I had with You before the world was."
　
I have said that the Word was the heavenly Son of God, who was from the beginning, and we get part of the information from Job 38:
--- God had tested Job and Job was asking questions to God, so God relates His Superior knowledge in asking Job some questions.
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?
3 Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 (Where were you) When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The Word, The Son of God was called God in John 1:1, and in Hebrews 1:8
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions
--- The heavenly Son of God was chosen from among others and anointed and called God. --- "Your throne o God is forever and ever."
　

 

[bluto]

I have to know placid who is teaching you this stuff or where did you learn it from? You said this: " Yes it does say 'that which we have seen and heard,' which was the voice of Jesus, but spoken through Him by the Word. They saw Jesus as the Manifestation of God on earth, and heard His voice."

You keep separating Jesus Christ from the "Word/Logos" when I gave you concrete scriptual proof that Jesus Christ "IS" the Word/Logos." This is what the Apostle John was teaching not only at John 1:1-14 but even in more deatain at 1 John 1:1-3. Jesus and the Word/Logos are the same person and not as you say two separate beings. Please tell me what church do you attend that teaches this stuff?

You also said this: "The Scripture says, "Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin." --- Jesus had to come in a flesh and blood body. --- He had to die in the flesh, and shed His blood, then be resurrected in a Spiritual body. --- However this Spiritual body of Jesus Christ was seen after the resurrection, --- when He chose to appear among them."

I agree 100% with you on this but yet you still deny that Jesus Christ is "Theos/God" who was sent by God the Father and in fact this is what Hebrews 10:5 states, "Therefore, when HE (who's the HE in this verse placid?) comes into the world, HE says, "Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired, BUT A BODY THOU HAST PREPARED FOR ME;" This does not mean that Jesus Christ was a created being either.

Now, please explain to me how you are going to separate Jesus Christ who is the "Word/Logos" from Acts 20:28 where the Apostle Paul wrote the following under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church OF GOD WHICH HE PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD." Who's blood purchased the church placid? It was not God the Father and it was not God the Holy Spirit, so who's left?

And btw, Jesus Christ is the Son of God and yes He is the only physical manifestation of God because He is God in flesh according to John 1:18. And if He was not perfect and sinless then He could not have died on that cross for the sins of the world.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[popeye]

However, there is one more important place where the Word was directly involved.
It began when God sent the Word (called the LORD of hosts) in Isaiah 48:
16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me."

And it follows this up in Hebrews 10:
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’" --- (It was written in Isaiah 48:16.)
　
　
So God sent the Word to earth to do the job of organizing and implimenting the plan of redemption of mankind. --- The body that was prepared was the human body of Jesus, but it had to be without sin for a perfect Scrifice.
Christ, the Son of Man, and the Word, were with Moses in the wilderness, and Christ is called on again since He was able to relate to mankind.
　
Near the end of the Mission it says this, which has been misunderstood in John 17:
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
　
This is the 'Word' speaking because in 3, He speaks in the first person to God and refers to Jesus Christ in the third person.
In 4, He says, --- "I have finished the work which You have given Me to do."
And in 5, He says, --- "With the glory which I had with You before the world was."
　
I have said that the Word was the heavenly Son of God, who was from the beginning, and we get part of the information from Job 38:
--- God had tested Job and Job was asking questions to God, so God relates His Superior knowledge in asking Job some questions.
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?
3 Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 (Where were you) When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The Word, The Son of God was called God in John 1:1, and in Hebrews 1:8
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions
--- The heavenly Son of God was chosen from among others and anointed and called God. --- "Your throne o God is forever and ever."
　

that part i highlighted in red is absolutely false,you literally made that up.

You need to get out of the "explaining Jesus" business.

 

[bluto]

I saw that as well popeye but forgot to comment on it. This reminds of the Mormon's teaching that Jesus Christ and Satan were spirit brothers and God the Father chose Jesus among other spirits from the Mormon planet of Kolob to come here to earth to save us. In response, Satan got mad/jealous and he then became the Devil. Unbelievable garbage!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Socreta93]

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name [singular] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19).

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all (2 Corinthians 13:14).

To God’s elect…who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood (1 Peter 1:1-2).

 

[Placid]

There is another aspect of importance to our discussion and that is, "Where did sin and Satan originate, which caused the need for redemption?"

The Scriptures are not in chronological order, and we find interwoven Prophecies that can confuse, but that is the way they are written, so we must seek the Lord's guidance to understand them.

　
The general concept of ‘original sin’ is that it began with Adam and Eve, --- but there had to be ‘sin’ before that, because they were ‘tempted’ to sin by an outside voice, the devil, Satan. --- Satan means 'adversary,' so something happened in eternity past to cause Satan to be an adversary to God.

　
(I quote this from the Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary.)

--- THE ORIGIN OF SATAN

How did Satan originate? --- "God is Love," and God is holy. --- Because Love is His predominating characteristic, God desired to surround His throne with creatures who He might love, and by whom He might be loved. Because of His holiness, these creatures must also be holy; and by logical necessity love and holiness cannot be forced. Compulsory love or holiness would not be either love or holiness, and could not satisfy the all-wise Creator. Therefore, these loving and holy creatures must be endowed with the ability to choose whether "to glorify God and enjoy Him forever" or to reject Him and suffer the consequences. The story of the beginning of sin is nowhere related explicitly in the Word; but certain passages seem to hint so strongly that the following theory has long been held to explain them. --- Isaiah 14:12-15 is apparently directed to "the King of Babylon" and Ezekiel 28:12-17 similarly to "the Prince of Tyre," but in each case the Prophet uses language which could not truly and literally refer to any mere man.

--- Apparently God first peopled the universe, or at least our part of it, with a hierarchy of holy angels, of whom one of the orders was (or contained) the Cherubim. One of them, perhaps the highest of all, was "the anointed cherub who covers," who was created beautiful and perfect in his ways. The cherub knew that he was beautiful, but pride entered his heart and the first sin in the whole history of eternity occurred. Pride led to self-will (Is 14:13-14) and self-will led to rebellion. This great cherub became the adversary Satan, and apparently led other angels into rebellion. --- End of quote.


We will start with Ezekiel 28:

11 'Thus says the Lord God: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

16 And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.

17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;

And his ambition of leading others in trying to make himself like God was his downfall as expressed in Isaiah 14:

12 NKJV: "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.

--- The footnote (b) says: Literally, Day Star --- And son of the morning.

12 NASB: "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn!

12 NIV: How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn!

12 Amplified Bible: "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning [light-bringer], son of the dawn!

--- These various terms for, Day Star, star of the morning --- son of the morning, and son of the dawn, speak of the angels mentioned in Job 38:

7 (Where were you, Job) When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

--- So this identifies the order of Cherubim angels that are mentioned in Job.
So sin originated in the heart of this prominent angel, because God said in Ezekiel 28:

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

 

[bluto]

Ok placid, we can discuss the sin issue if you like but I want to first get what I posted resolved when I just posted the following. I don't think it is wise to hip hop to other topics when you still have not addressed the issue of the "Word/Logos" being Jesus Christ Himself which is what I believe and proved from the Scriptures themselves. On the other hand, you believe the "Word/Logos is some other entity that entered into the body/flesh of Jesus Christ. And I also ask you where you came up with this teaching? In short, let's see if we can settle this issue first before moving on to something else.

"I have to know placid who is teaching you this stuff or where did you learn it from? You said this: " Yes it does say 'that which we have seen and heard,' which was the voice of Jesus, but spoken through Him by the Word. They saw Jesus as the Manifestation of God on earth, and heard His voice."

You keep separating Jesus Christ from the "Word/Logos" when I gave you concrete scriptual proof that Jesus Christ "IS" the Word/Logos." This is what the Apostle John was teaching not only at John 1:1-14 but even in more deatain at 1 John 1:1-3. Jesus and the Word/Logos are the same person and not as you say two separate beings. Please tell me what church do you attend that teaches this stuff?

You also said this: "The Scripture says, "Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin." --- Jesus had to come in a flesh and blood body. --- He had to die in the flesh, and shed His blood, then be resurrected in a Spiritual body. --- However this Spiritual body of Jesus Christ was seen after the resurrection, --- when He chose to appear among them."

I agree 100% with you on this but yet you still deny that Jesus Christ is "Theos/God" who was sent by God the Father and in fact this is what Hebrews 10:5 states, "Therefore, when HE (who's the HE in this verse placid?) comes into the world, HE says, "Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired, BUT A BODY THOU HAST PREPARED FOR ME;" This does not mean that Jesus Christ was a created being either.

Now, please explain to me how you are going to separate Jesus Christ who is the "Word/Logos" from Acts 20:28 where the Apostle Paul wrote the following under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church OF GOD WHICH HE PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD." Who's blood purchased the church placid? It was not God the Father and it was not God the Holy Spirit, so who's left?

And btw, Jesus Christ is the Son of God and yes He is the only physical manifestation of God because He is God in flesh according to John 1:18. And if He was not perfect and sinless then He could not have died on that cross for the sins of the world.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[mpaper345]

There are some people that hold a belief of the Bible that is not true,so when something goes against them,they have to be able to explain what those scriptures mean,instead of ignoring them.

So concerning can the trinity be proven by the Bible,they have to be able to explain those scriptures that oppose them.

Let us make man in our image.

Old Testament,Adam made in image of God.
New,Adam made in image of Christ.
Image of God is the image of Christ,so the man Christ Jesus has to be a part of the Let us make man in our image.

Explain.

Jesus conceived of the Holy Spirit,said if you have seem Me then you have seen the Father,said Spirit is Comforter,and that He will not leave them comfortless,but come to them,and said He is the Spirit there standing with them.

Where is God the Son,why was He conceived by the Holy Spirit,supposedly the third person,but He identified with the Father,and Holy Spirit,if you seen Him,but never said if you seen Me you seen God the Son.

Explain.

The Bible says the Son was made of a woman,made under the law,made according to the flesh.

Explain.

In the Old Testament it states the Son shall be called the everlasting Father.

Explain.

God the Father said He would reveal a new name to the saints,and Jesus said He came in His Father's name,and the Son inherited the name from the Father,and the Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Luke said baptize in Jesus' name,in the book of Acts,Jews,Gentiles,and Samaritans,all were baptized in Jesus' name.

Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,titles,not names.

Explain.

Jesus at the right hand of God.

The Bible says there is only one throne in heaven,and one on the throne,which is the throne of both God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus,as He shines pout of that body,and lights the New Jerusalem.

The LORD said unto My Lord,sit at My right hand until your enemies are conquered.

One God,one mediator between God and men,the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus said all power given to me in heaven,and earth.

The Son must reign until His enemies are conquered,then the Son shall submit to the Father,that God may be all in all.

The Son at the right hand of God,a temporary role,then He will cease being at the right hand,that God may be all in all.

Explain.

The Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father,but in another passage the Son shall present it to Himself.

Explain.

The Bible says,but to us there is one God,the Father,and another scripture,there is one God,the Father,who is above all,and in you all,and through you all.

Bible only ascribes the Father as God.

Explain.

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated,and according to His deity,He has no beginning,and is God,for the Bible says that Jesus dwells in the light that no person can approach,and no person has seen Jesus,and no person will ever see Jesus,and according to His humanity,He has a beginning,and is the Son,which when the fulness of the time was come,God sent forth His Son,made of a woman,made under the law,and made according to the flesh.

If someone thinks they have a scripture supporting a trinity,it can be explained that it is not a trinity,which the trinity became so popular that people think it was always the truth,but it is not the truth.

Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,are titles,and the three ways God has a relationship with the saints,designated by titles,not three persons in one God,when the Bible says there is one God,the Father,who is above all,and through you all,and in you all,and the Son shall be called the everlasting Father,and Jesus said if you have seen Me,you have seen the Father.

Father-parent of the saint.

Son-God's visible relationship to the saints,and the way He provided salvation,and God working among mankind visibly.

Holy Spirit-God's invisible relationship to the saints,and God working among people invisibly.That is why the Spirit moved in creation,and Jesus was conceived by the Spirit,and the Spirit dwells in the saints.

I understand why people that have believed a trinity,do not want to change their mind,for they are convinced too much concerning it,and do not want to offend God,and if in doubt do not say a thing unless you are sure.

But I read through the Bible,and there is no trinity,but one God,who is a Holy Spirit.Father is a title of God,and the Son is the man Christ Jesus,so while people think the Holy Spirit is the third person of a trinity,before God created anything,there is but one God,who is a Holy Spirit.

 

[Quasar92]

There are some people that hold a belief of the Bible that is not true,so when something goes against them,they have to be able to explain what those scriptures mean,instead of ignoring them.

So concerning can the trinity be proven by the Bible,they have to be able to explain those scriptures that oppose them.

Let us make man in our image.

Old Testament,Adam made in image of God.
New,Adam made in image of Christ.
Image of God is the image of Christ,so the man Christ Jesus has to be a part of the Let us make man in our image.

Explain.

Jesus conceived of the Holy Spirit,said if you have seem Me then you have seen the Father,said Spirit is Comforter,and that He will not leave them comfortless,but come to them,and said He is the Spirit there standing with them.

Where is God the Son,why was He conceived by the Holy Spirit,supposedly the third person,but He identified with the Father,and Holy Spirit,if you seen Him,but never said if you seen Me you seen God the Son.

Explain.

The Bible says the Son was made of a woman,made under the law,made according to the flesh.

Explain.

In the Old Testament it states the Son shall be called the everlasting Father.

Explain.

God the Father said He would reveal a new name to the saints,and Jesus said He came in His Father's name,and the Son inherited the name from the Father,and the Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Luke said baptize in Jesus' name,in the book of Acts,Jews,Gentiles,and Samaritans,all were baptized in Jesus' name.

Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,titles,not names.

Explain.

Jesus at the right hand of God.

The Bible says there is only one throne in heaven,and one on the throne,which is the throne of both God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus,as He shines pout of that body,and lights the New Jerusalem.

The LORD said unto My Lord,sit at My right hand until your enemies are conquered.

One God,one mediator between God and men,the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus said all power given to me in heaven,and earth.

The Son must reign until His enemies are conquered,then the Son shall submit to the Father,that God may be all in all.

The Son at the right hand of God,a temporary role,then He will cease being at the right hand,that God may be all in all.

Explain.

The Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father,but in another passage the Son shall present it to Himself.

Explain.

The Bible says,but to us there is one God,the Father,and another scripture,there is one God,the Father,who is above all,and in you all,and through you all.

Bible only ascribes the Father as God.

Explain.

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated,and according to His deity,He has no beginning,and is God,for the Bible says that Jesus dwells in the light that no person can approach,and no person has seen Jesus,and no person will ever see Jesus,and according to His humanity,He has a beginning,and is the Son,which when the fulness of the time was come,God sent forth His Son,made of a woman,made under the law,and made according to the flesh.

If someone thinks they have a scripture supporting a trinity,it can be explained that it is not a trinity,which the trinity became so popular that people think it was always the truth,but it is not the truth.

Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,are titles,and the three ways God has a relationship with the saints,designated by titles,not three persons in one God,when the Bible says there is one God,the Father,who is above all,and through you all,and in you all,and the Son shall be called the everlasting Father,and Jesus said if you have seen Me,you have seen the Father.

Father-parent of the saint.

Son-God's visible relationship to the saints,and the way He provided salvation,and God working among mankind visibly.

Holy Spirit-God's invisible relationship to the saints,and God working among people invisibly.That is why the Spirit moved in creation,and Jesus was conceived by the Spirit,and the Spirit dwells in the saints.

I understand why people that have believed a trinity,do not want to change their mind,for they are convinced too much concerning it,and do not want to offend God,and if in doubt do not say a thing unless you are sure.

But I read through the Bible,and there is no trinity,but one God,who is a Holy Spirit.Father is a title of God,and the Son is the man Christ Jesus,so while people think the Holy Spirit is the third person of a trinity,before God created anything,there is but one God,who is a Holy Spirit.

Points you alluded to in the above are well discerned in which all need to be addressed to understand who and what God is, together with that of Jesus. Consider the pertinent facts below:

The Bible, Jesus and His disciples teach the following, not a bogus Trinity:

Beginning with: God is Spirit according to: Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12. That no one has ever seen Him and that He is invisible, are found in Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; Heb.11:27 [Moses, Abraham and Jacob all saw the pre-incarnate Jesus, not God, the invisible Holy Spirit] and in 1 Jn.4:12.

God is Holy: God, who is Spirit according to the Scriptures, is also Holy, according to Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.

Therefore, according to the Scriptures, there is no option to the fact, God is the Holy Spirit!

There was only one God throughout the entire OT according to Isa.43:10; 44:6 and 45:5. Which rules out Jesus being co-eternal with God, the Holy Spirit. The Scriptural description of his origin is addressed below. It can be described as Jesus auto-biography, written by king Solomon as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is also the Father of Jesus according to Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and Acts 13:33.

The Holy Spirit, who is our One and Only God [Isa.43:10 and 44:6], not only stated He was the Father of Israel , in Dt.32:6, but also prophecied He was going to be the Father of a Son, in: 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Which was fulfilled in Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and Acts 13:33. Therefore, there is no option to the Scriptural fact: God, the Holy Spirit was/is the Father of Jesus Christ. And gave a body to the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus, by the virgin Mary, Confirming Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5.

The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus then became the incarnate Son of God in Lk.1:35, and received His name, Jesus, in Lk.1:31. Literally, God the Son, fulfilling the prophecy of the Holy Spirit, in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. Empowered to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, according to Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. To perform 36 miracles, of raising some from the dead, healing people with leprosy and other terminal illnesses as well as the blind and the deaf. Which no normal human being could ever do.

The title, "Father," given to God, the Holy Spirit, is nothing more than the very same title all men receive who produce children of their own! It does not constitute making God, who is the Holy Spirit, two persons through the use of His title as Father, trinitarians attempt to do! Which is the reason why Mt.28:19 is bogus, because it was obviously altered by unscrupulous scribes obsessed with belief in the doctrine of the Trinity. In addition 1 Jn.5:7 was a late Latin insert on, around the 11th or 12th centuries that never appeared in any of the earlier Greek manuscripts.

Mt.28:19 was altered and 1 Jn.5:7 was an insert:The Scriptures reveal, God to be the Holy Spirit and the Father [His title] of Jesus Christ. Therefore the use of the term Father with the Holy Spirit by trinitarians as two persons [together with the Son, as their truine formula] is in error, because the Father is the Holy Spirit, one person, not two! In addition to the fact: A. The Son did not exist in the OT. B. The pre-incarnate spirit who later became Jesus, was created, according to Pr.8:22-36, as documented above, and confirmed in Col.1:15 as the firstborn over all creation.


Quasar92.

 

[ZacharyB]

NO, except for the 50 biblically verses teaching us that Jesus is God!
And the 10 biblically verses teaching us that the Holy Spirit is God!
C'mon, get a life! ... Thank you.

 

[Quasar92]

The following seven scriptures show the fallacy of claiming that the Father and the Son are one being as the Trinity teaching asserts. How can one reconcile belief in the Trinity with these simple questions?
1. Hebrews 1:5 Hebrews 1:5For to which of the angels said he at any time, You are my Son, this day have I begotten you? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

The KJV tells us that Jesus was begotten by His Father. Did He beget Himself?

2. In Matthew 22:44 Matthew 22:44The LORD said to my Lord, Sit you on my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool?

KJV: the Father said Jesus would sit at His right hand until His enemies were made His footstool. Was Jesus to sit at His own right hand?

3. In Matthew 24:36 Matthew 24:36But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

KJV: when Jesus told His disciples that no one knows the day or hour of His return but the Father only, did He really know but made up an excuse to not tell them?

4. In John 14:28 John 14:28You have heard how I said to you, I go away, and come again to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice, because I said, I go to the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

KJV: Jesus said His Father was greater than He was. Does this mean He was greater than Himself?

5. In John 17:1 John 17:1These words spoke Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify your Son, that your Son also may glorify you:

KJV: Jesus prayed to His Father. Was He praying to Himself?

6. In Matthew 27:46 Matthew 27:46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

KJV: Jesus cried out, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?” Had He forsaken Himself?

7. In John 20:17 John 20:17Jesus said to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brothers, and say to them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

KJV: Jesus said He would ascend to the Father after His resurrection. Did He ascend to Himself?

These and many other biblical passages demonstrate to a rational Bible reader that the Trinity teaching is not only unbiblical, but also utterly illogical!



Quasar92

 

[valiant]

Points you alluded to in the above are well discerned in which all need to be addressed to understand who and what God is, together with that of Jesus. Consider the pertinent facts below:

The Bible, Jesus and His disciples teach the following, not a bogus Trinity:

Beginning with: God is Spirit according to: Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12.

What would God be if He was not Spirit? The Father is Spirit, the Son is Spirit, the Holy Spirit is Spirit. The ONLY one of your quotes above which mention 'spirit' is 2 Cor 3.17-18 where it is the Spirit of Christ Who is mentioned. You're a fake!!!

 

[Quasar92]

NO, except for the 50 biblically verses teaching us that Jesus is God!
And the 10 biblically verses teaching us that the Holy Spirit is God!
C'mon, get a life! ... Thank you.

Who are you addressing your remarks to?


Quasar92

 

[valiant]

That no one has ever seen Him and that He is invisible, are found in Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; Heb.11:27 [Moses, Abraham and Jacob all saw the pre-incarnate Jesus, not God, the invisible Holy Spirit] and in 1 Jn.4:12.

That was in His essential being. His appearances were all in earthly form. (e.g. Gen 32.30).

 

[bluto]

Oh my paper, your statement here is "fallacious." "So concerning can the trinity be proven by the Bible,they have to be able to explain those scriptures that oppose them." What your saying to me is to prove statements (like the ones you made here in this post) that the Trintiy is not true.

The real question is how does one "RECONCILE" verses that appear to contradict (again the verses you provided) verses that oppose ones that I will bring up to prove that the Trinity is true according to the Bible. I will start with a simple syllogism.

If the Bible teaches there There is one God

and

If in the Bible The Father is identifed as God

and

If in the Bible His Son is identifed as God

and

If in the Bible THEIR Spirit is identifed as God

The the doctrine of the Trinity is VALID

OR

The Bible is wrong.

In my post #1 I proved how God is identified in the Bible. By His names, His titles, His unique attributes, His unique actions and His worship. This means that within the Bible there are ONLY three persons of the Trinity that receive some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God from all that is not God.

Now, I will address some of your questions because I'm a nice guy! You brought up Isaiah 9:6 when you said: "In the Old Testament it states the Son shall be called the everlasting Father." Each named mentioned in Isaiah 9:6, "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace, ARE descriptions of the CHARACTER of Jesus Christ. He is indeed wonderful and the root of this word appeals for its force to the idea that our God is a God of wonders. He performs His wonders for His glory, as a testimony of His righteousness, and for our benefit.

And since He a God of wondr, He is qualified to be our conselor. Jesus Christ is "Mighty God," el gibbor, who is might to save His people. Jesus Christ is "Eternal Father" because He cares for His people like a father. It should be noted that some Scholars understand "Eternal Father" to mean Jesus Christ is the Father of eternity. Regardless, this phrase does NOT mean Jesus Christ is God the Father.

What about "Prince of peace?" Well He is just that to all who by faith trust His finished work on that cross for the forgiveness of our sins. So the main point I am trying to get across is the fact that this (again) descriptions of the character of Jesus Christ and not just "titles."

Now, in quasars latest post to me he said this: "There was only one God throughout the entire OT according to Isa.43:10; 44:6 and 45:5. Which rules out Jesus being co-eternal with God, the Holy Spirit." To be sure Jesus Christ is the physical manfiestion of God. One of the purposes of Hebrews 1:1,2 is to show the Son was so God could speak to us. In fact, God's purpose in manifesting Himself throughout human history has been to communicate and make Himself known to man.

In this sense, we can say that God's manifestion is His messenger. This can be seen at Exodus 3:2 where the Angel of the Lord identifies himself with God. Furthermore, the angel of the Lord is not a real angel like Michael or Gabriel. When communicating to Moses throught the burning bush, God said, "Come now, therefore, and I will send you to Pharaoh that you may bring My people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt. When communicated to the apostles throught the Son, God said, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to very creature" To Moses He said, "I will ceetaintly be with you. The the apostles He said, "Lo, I am with you alway, even to the end of the age."

Lastly, I want to ask you a question paper? Hebrews 6:13,14, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swar by no one grater; He swore by Himself, vs14, saying, " I wio surely bless you; and I will surely multiply you." Can you please tell me where in the book of Genesis God made this promise?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[valiant]

God is Holy: God, who is Spirit according to the Scriptures, is also Holy, according to Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.

Therefore, according to the Scriptures, there is no option to the fact, God is the Holy Spirit!

But my spirit is called to be holy. Does that make me God.? To take a common adjective like holy and insist that it means that any spirit who is called Holy must be the Father is ridiculous

 

[Quasar92]

What would God be if He was not Spirit? The Father is Spirit, the Son is Spirit, the Holy Spirit is Spirit. The ONLY one of your quotes above which mention 'spirit' is 2 Cor 3.17-18 where it is the Spirit of Christ Who is mentioned. You're a fake!!!

My post 1251 provides the Scriptural description of God, who is the Holy Spirit, His TITLE as Father, ONE person - not TWO, and His only begotten Son, Jesus, as recorded in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35, who was very human as recorded in Jn.1:14. The Father and the Son are TWO very separate entities, as recorded in many places such as in Jn.14:28, 17:3 and 5.


Quasar92

 

[valiant]

There was only one God throughout the entire OT according to Isa.43:10; 44:6 and 45:5. Which rules out Jesus being co-eternal with God, the Holy Spirit.

There IS only one God, YHWH, Who is Father Son and Holy Spirit.' The First and the Last mentioned in Is 44.6 is used of Jesus in Rev 2.8 and 22.13. That rules Him in again LOL