Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

jaybird88 · Nov 1, 2016

i only know of the bible teaching the Most High is one, not 2, 3 or any more. the Father and Son both confirm this.

Demi777 · Nov 1, 2016

normally if they should have a ten-ity because its father,son,holy spirit, spirit of the Lord, Spirit of wisdom,spirit of understanding, spirit of knowledge, spirit of the fear of the Lord, spirit of counsel, spirit of strength.

goodness lol! naw God the father is ONE and theres no other God besides him. Jesus is his son, the son of God. but yea thats just me

notbythesword · Nov 1, 2016

Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.

1 Peter 3:5-6 For in the past, the holy women who put their hope in God also beautified themselves in this way, submitting to their own husbands, just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. You have become her children when you do what is good and are not frightened by anything alarming.

Exodus 7:1 The Lord answered Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother will be your prophet.

I think Paul summed it up best. He knew that there were both things on and above the earth that were called lords and gods. However, he made it clear that there was only one true God (the Father) and one true Lord (Jesus Christ).

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth—as there are many “gods” and many “lords”—yet for us there is one God, the Father. All things are from Him, and we exist for Him. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ. All things are through Him, and we exist through Him.

Jesus said this while praying to His Father in John 17:3 This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and the One You have sent—Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1:8-9 but to the Son: Your throne, God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; this is why God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of joy rather than Your companions.

notbythesword · Nov 1, 2016

Yeah the Father is directly quoted numerous times throughout scripture as being God. Never have we seen a person in scripture identify God as the Father, Son, and Spirit combo. It is something that must be inferred by them. Even in my first post (page 53 #1051) I gave an example of this.

Placid · Nov 1, 2016

Hi notbythesword,
　
Quote from Post 1208
Has the Trinity Doctrine been added into scripture?
　
Response: --- No, the trinity doctrine was not added to the Scripture, since none of the language of trinity is in the Bible. The trinity was introduced by the Roman Emperor Constantine at a meeting in 325 AD, as a solution to the dispute in his kingdom. --- His concern was not about what the doctrine said, but only to bring a peaceful solution to his problem.

The argument among theologians was from Arian who said Christ was a created being, and not God, so they distorted the Godhead by removing the Word (Logos, the creative power of God) through whom all things were made. John 1:3. --- And they added 'the Son' referring to Jesus, instead of the Word, (who was the Heavenly Son of God). --- Then they declared, 'they were both God, and co-equal.' --- (So there was no trinity from the first meeting, just two, the Father and Son, but logic shows that father and son can't be the same, or one person.)

It was at a later meeting in 381 AD that they expanded the doctrine and included the Holy Spirit as the third of the trinity. --- None of this is from Scripture, and there is no mention of prayer in their meetings, or any claim that it was 'guided by the Holy Spirit,' so it was a manmade doctrine, that the newly formed Roman Catholic Church imposed on the local community Churches.

--- Also, I want to comment on some of your examples like the following:
Quote:
Ephesians 3:9 HCSB: and to shed light for all about the administration of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things

Ephesians 3:9 KJV: And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

Yes, surprisingly, we find it in the KJV, but not in others, as I have listed the main ones below.
The New King James follows a pattern of including verses with a footnote, as it does here to indicate it is not in other Manuscripts.
9 NKJ: and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;

--- The footnote says:
NU-Text omits through Jesus Christ. --- And other versions say:
9 NIV: and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
9 NASB: and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
9 Amplified Bible: and to make plain [to everyone] the plan of the mystery [regarding the uniting of believing Jews and Gentiles into one body] which [until now] was kept hidden through the ages in [the mind of] God who created all things.
9 Darby Translation: and to enlighten all [with the knowledge of] what is the administration of the mystery hidden throughout the ages in God, who has created all things,
9 Complete Jewish Bible: and of letting everyone see how this secret plan is going to work out. This plan, kept hidden for ages by God, the Creator of everything,
Douay Rheims translated from the Latin Vulgate of 400 AD:
9 And to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God, who created all things:
--- I will add another example later.

valiant · Nov 1, 2016

Placid said:

How did he enable Tertullian to discuss the trinity one hundred and fifty years before and provide the name?

His name was Arius. Constantine tried to get the church to agree with him. Those who stood for the Triune Godhead had to oppose Constantine.

-

But John said that the Word (Who was God - 1.1) was made flesh and dwelt among us (1.14),

-

What are you talking about?

They are God and co-equal. But they are NOT one persona, but two. They are however one being.

Rubbish, it was taught by Jesus in John 14-16 that God the Holy Spirit was a separate persona

It is ALL from Scripture, and the Roman Catholic church was not formed until 8th century AD

valiant · Nov 1, 2016

Jesus said, 'That all may honour the Son AS they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son (as they honour the Father), does not honour the Father Who sent Him.' John 5.23

Equal honour equals equality of position,

“For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given the Son to have life in Himself” John 5.26

Notice He has life In HIMSELF, not as life from the Father.

Jesus answered them, “MY Father is working still and I am working.” This was why the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God John 5.17-18

Jesus called Him MY Father. No Jew would ever have dared to call Him that. It was calling God His own Father.

“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” John 8.58

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know Me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father. John 14.9

This could only be true because Jesus and the Father shared the same attributes.

“And this is life eternal, that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent – and now, Father, glorify Me with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17.5)

Here He proclaimed that before the creation of the world He had the same glory as the Father had.

John said, 'In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was face to face with God, and What God was the Word was, – and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1.1, 14).

The risen Jesus said, “Baptising them in the (one) Name (YHWH) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Matthew 28.19

And for us there is ONE GOD, the Father, from Whom are all things and for Whom we exist, and ONE LORD through Whom are all things and through Whom we exist 1 Corinthians 8.6 (in contrast with the many gods and lords)

He is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstBORN before the whole of creation Colossians 1.15

In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form Colossians 2.9

Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ Titus 2.13

When the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared, – which He poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Saviour Titus 3.4, 6

In the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ – of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Peter 1.1 ,11 (exactly parallel in the Greek).

I am still waiting for someone to explain these verses. They have just been avoided up to now,

valiant · Nov 1, 2016

notbythesword said:

Matthew 28.19 distinguishes them and yet says that they have one NAME i.e. YHWH

notbythesword · Nov 1, 2016

Placid said:

Hi Placid. I agree with you that many of the textual variances within numerous Trinitarian passages have been shown to have been tampered with from within the Greek/English translation phase of production. However, regardless if the forgeries and alterations are taking place during the transcribing phase, or in the actual Greek manuscripts themselves (as was the case of 1 John 5:7), it is still wrong.

Adding or taking away from God’s word is not okay, whether it be done to various English versions of the Bible, or to some of the Greek Manuscripts themselves. I personally, do not want to read a Bible that deliberately has changed words and phrases simply to push certain doctrinal beliefs. I want the truth, the way it was originally written. I’ll decide for myself what it means, with the Holy Spirit of God to guide me in my efforts.

It is a shame that one has to go through such intense scrutiny just to ensure the accuracy of what he or she is reading sometimes. Nevertheless, I know that God told Peter that not even the gates of Hades would prevail against His original message. That Jesus was the Son of the Living God, that Jesus was the Christ.

Matthew 16:13-20 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?” So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

Jesus was saying that Peter was going to be the rock of the faith. Peter explained correctly who Christ was and would now be the foundation on which Christ would build His church through. However, this teaching of who Christ was, may have flown in the face of some differing Christian sects, mainly the ideas being produced from the first Council of Nicea in 325 AD.

In fact, only around 5 years later (roughly 330 AD) did the building of St. Peter’s Basilica begin taking place during the reign of Constantine. The Romans desired to “literally” build a church over the remains of Peter’s body, just to be able to claim that the passage “you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church” was now physically talking about the Roman church’s location above his body.

They used this newly established fact as a tool to show that they were indeed the true church, that they had authority, divinely alluded to in scripture. That their ideals, their practices, their rituals, their understandings, their doctrines and their insights, were the correct ones.

I do not understand God’s nature based upon what ancient Roman councils have asserted is correct. I do not identify God’s nature through the re-edited translations of various opinionated scribes. I accept all of scripture, not just a fraction of conveniently arranged verses. My identification of God being the Father, may indeed be a minority Christian view, but it is a view that I am proud to hold.

Placid · Nov 1, 2016

Hi notbythesword,

To continue with this example from Post 1208, concerning 1 John 5:7, which is misunderstood to favor a trinity.
Quote:
1 John 5:7 HCSB: For there are three that testify:

1 John 5:7 KJV: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

--- Again in the New King James it gives the verse, with a footnote 1 John 5:
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth:
--- The footnote says:
NU-Text and M-Text omit the words from in heaven (verse 7) through on earth (verse 8). Only four or five very late manuscripts contain these words in Greek.
However, in the Douay Rheims that was translated from the Latin Vulgate, which was translated first from the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures into Latin, by the Scholar Jerome in 400 AD, includes it,
7 Douay Rheims: And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

7 NIV: For there are three that testify:
8 the [a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
--- The footnote [a] says the full verses are in other versions.
　
But notice that the full verses would have to be in the Manuscript they used when the verses were numbered, --- as they cut most of verse 7 out.

Another thing, it accurately identifies the three witnesses in heaven: The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit.
It says in John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, --- So we have the three who are in harmony. These three are one in purpose,
　
The great Commandment given to the Jews was in Deuteronomy 6:
4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

But it used 'Elohim' the plural name for God, --- and 'one' is 'Echad.'
---The Lord our God (Elohim), the Lord is one (Echad). in harmony.
It can be used for marriage when two people become one (Echad) in union.
Or for an army of 1000 men who are one (Echad) in purpose.

So in 1 John 5: There are three witnesses, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one (Echad) in harmony, in union, and in purpose. --- But they remain three, with three different 'roles.'
The Father is the Designer and Architect, He says, "Let Us make man in Our image." --- So the Word (Logos, the creative power of God) is the Builder through whom all things were made, so he makes a body according to the design --- then the Holy Spirit gives life by 'breathing life into the body.' --- "And man became a living soul."
　
But if these three are WITNESSES, who are they witnesses for? --- Are they witnesses of one another?
　
Think of this, --- this is something that I mentioned before, --- which you may reject, but I said,
Take a piece of stiff paper or light cardboard and cut a 4 inch square. --- Then fold it across the center from the corners to make four creases or four triangles. --- Now cut the crease on one corner into the center. Overlap one side so you have a three sided figure with the center raised. Glue or tape it that way, and consider that the top apex is "ALMIGHTY GOD" --- and the three witnesses, or Manifestations of God are, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, --- So consider them on each of the three corners, as the three in harmony under ALMIGHTY GOD.

--- Yes it may add more mystery to God, but think about it, and see where it leads you.

bluto · Nov 1, 2016

notbythesword said:

Ok sword, and others around here like placid, demi, jaybird and quasar I am going to address you post here instead of individually addressing y'all.

You mentioned Psalm 82:6 and it was Jesus Christ Himself who brought up the Psalm. I also want you to notice there is a common theme by the Jews themselves that prompted Jesus Christ to quote Psalm 82:6. What do I mean? At John 5:18, John 8:59, John 10:33, John 19:7 and at Matthew 26:65 the Jews wanted to kill Jesus Christ for the crime of blasphemy. What did Jesus Christ say in all of these verses that the Jews accused Him of blasphemy?

In fact let me give you your options. Did the Jews misunderstand Jesus? Was Jesus guilty of blasphemy because at John 19:7 the Jews said, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die, because He made Himself out the Son of God." The law the Jews are talking about is at Leviticus 24:16. So what do you say sword, or anybody else that I mentioned in my first sentence of this post? Did Jesus Christ break the Levitical law at 24:16, yes or no? And one more thing which I already mentioned, why did Jesus Christ bring up Psalm 82:6?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

valiant · Nov 1, 2016

Placid said:

Hi notbythesword,

To continue with this example from Post 1208, concerning 1 John 5:7, which is misunderstood to favor a trinity.
Quote:
1 John 5:7 HCSB: For there are three that testify:

1 John 5:7 KJV: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

--- Again in the New King James it gives the verse, with a footnote 1 John 5:
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth:
--- The footnote says:
NU-Text and M-Text omit the words from in heaven (verse 7) through on earth (verse 8). Only four or five very late manuscripts contain these words in Greek.
However, in the Douay Rheims that was translated from the Latin Vulgate, which was translated first from the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures into Latin, by the Scholar Jerome in 400 AD, includes it,
7 Douay Rheims: And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

7 NIV: For there are three that testify:
8 the [a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
--- The footnote [a] says the full verses are in other versions.
　
But notice that the full verses would have to be in the Manuscript they used when the verses were numbered, --- as they cut most of verse 7 out.

Another thing, it accurately identifies the three witnesses in heaven: The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit.
It says in John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, --- So we have the three who are in harmony. These three are one in purpose,
　
The great Commandment given to the Jews was in Deuteronomy 6:
4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

But it used 'Elohim' the plural name for God, --- and 'one' is 'Echad.'
---The Lord our God (Elohim), the Lord is one (Echad). in harmony.
It can be used for marriage when two people become one (Echad) in union.
Or for an army of 1000 men who are one (Echad) in purpose.

So in 1 John 5: There are three witnesses, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one (Echad) in harmony, in union, and in purpose. --- But they remain three, with three different 'roles.'
The Father is the Designer and Architect, He says, "Let Us make man in Our image." --- So the Word (Logos, the creative power of God) is the Builder through whom all things were made, so he makes a body according to the design --- then the Holy Spirit gives life by 'breathing life into the body.' --- "And man became a living soul."
　
But if these three are WITNESSES, who are they witnesses for? --- Are they witnesses of one another?
　
Think of this, --- this is something that I mentioned before, --- which you may reject, but I said,
Take a piece of stiff paper or light cardboard and cut a 4 inch square. --- Then fold it across the center from the corners to make four creases or four triangles. --- Now cut the crease on one corner into the center. Overlap one side so you have a three sided figure with the center raised. Glue or tape it that way, and consider that the top apex is "ALMIGHTY GOD" --- and the three witnesses, or Manifestations of God are, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, --- So consider them on each of the three corners, as the three in harmony under ALMIGHTY GOD.

--- Yes it may add more mystery to God, but think about it, and see where it leads you.

and think about this that Father and Son speak to each other in both old and new testaments showing that they are more than manifestations. They are personal.

Now ANSWER my last but one post 1227.

notbythesword · Nov 1, 2016

valiant said:

Hi valiant, sorry if I can take a while to respond. I’ve been trying to respond to quite a few posts recently. Matthew 28:19 is a verse that has been contested as having been changed from its original rendering by the Trinitarian church. The first thing that should stick out about this verse, is how we only see this Triune formula being applied in this one particular verse. Let’s look at baptisms and see how they were baptized. Either we’ll see a baptism through all three, or through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 8:16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Colossians 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

As you can see, baptism was done in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Not using a Father, Son, and Spirit formula. Conveniently for Trinitarians, all of the ancient manuscripts dating prior to the fourth century have Matthew 28 “missing”.

However, a proclaimed Bishop of Caesarea by the name of Eusebius, (265 AD – 339 AD) had access to the Library of Caesarea which housed references and ancient manuscripts that are not around today. Eusebius quoted Matthew 28:19 with these words as he read from the ancient text available to him…

“Go ye into all the world, and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe whatsoever I have commanded you.”

Nothing about a Trinity here, not even about water baptism. However, even though it looks like the earliest renderings of Matthew 28 have been lost, we still see various pieces of evidence that may validate the translation that Eusebius used. For instance, the Shem Tob manuscripts.

Let’s pretend that there was no controversy surrounding this verse though. Even if (only the sake of argument), we were to accept that Matthew 28:19 in its current form is correct (which I in no way believe), you would simply learn of a different way to baptize. This says nothing of God being those three together, nor does it say that they are all co-equal, nor all co-eternal, nor them being three separate persons all making up one being. So, either way you look at it, the Trinity Doctrine, as defined, would by no means be understood by this verse.

notbythesword · Nov 1, 2016

bluto said:

Why should how the Jews viewed Christ portraying Himself to be, be used as an instrument of guidance for us to follow? You’ll admit that the Jews were wrong about believing that Jesus was not the Messiah, you’ll admit that the Jews were wrong about Jesus not being the King, in fact, just about everything regarding Christ’s nature, you would admit they were wrong about.

Yet, you quickly point to the Jews to show how they thought that Jesus was making Himself equal with God. As if their views of Him were suddenly correct this time. Sounds like an extreme attempt to try and show validity of your doctrinal beliefs. The Jews of the time thought a lot of things about Jesus…doesn’t make them true.

Jesus actually had to correct them in regards to what they were saying. Let’s look at a verse you brought up. For example: John 5:18…

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

So, the Jews thought that Jesus was making Himself equal with God, yet Jesus has to explain to them in the very next verse that He can do nothing of Himself. He can only do what the Father shows Him to do. John 5:19…

John 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.”

We see the same thing occur In John 10:33-36. When the Jews sought to stone Jesus because they thought He was blaspheming by making Himself God. Yet again, Jesus had to set the record straight. He asked them why they were going to stone Him for just claiming to be the “Son” of God, since even the scripture had used language referring to them as “Gods”.

Eventually it was acknowledged by the Jews, that Jesus was claiming to be the “Son” of God. This we can see in John 19:6-7.

John 19:6-7 When the chief priests and the temple police saw Him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!” Pilate responded, “Take Him and crucify Him yourselves, for I find no grounds for charging Him.” “We have a law,” the Jews replied to him, “and according to that law He must die, because He made Himself the Son of God.”

Note that they didn’t say “was God” when He was being arraigned before the people.

bluto · Nov 1, 2016

Demi777 said:

Hi demi!

Since you agree that God is a Father and He is the Father of Jesus Christ (i.e. the Son of God) and John 3:16 states, "For God so loved the world that He/God the Father gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

So here are two questions? In what respect is Jesus Christ the "ONLY" begotten Son of God? Secondly, can you please give me an example of a son that does not share the same nature as its father?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Placid · Nov 2, 2016

Hi Bluto,
Quote from Post 1231:
Ok sword, and others around here like placid, demi, jaybird and quasar I am going to address you post here instead of individually addressing y'all.

You mentioned Psalm 82:6 and it was Jesus Christ Himself who brought up the Psalm. I also want you to notice there is a common theme by the Jews themselves that prompted Jesus Christ to quote Psalm 82:6.

Response: --- Psalm 62 was written by Asaph, a Levite appointed over the service of praise in the time of David and Solomon. He led the singing and sounded symbols before the ark, and apparently set up a school of music. --- He was the one to lead the people in 'praise and worship,' but he saw the hypocricy of the unjust judges.

A Psalm of Asaph.
82 1 God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods. [a] --- Footnote: Hebrew elohim, mighty ones; that is, the judges. --- (elohim is a plural name for God, but used with lower case, elohim and gods, it can refer to others.)

2 How long will you judge unjustly, And show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy; Free them from the hand of the wicked.
5 They do not know, nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
6 I said, "You are gods, --- Footnote: Hebrew elohim, mighty ones; that is, the judges.

And all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But you shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes."
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; For You shall inherit all nations.

Jesus mentioned this when the Jews asked Him if He was the Christ in John 10:
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
30 I and My Father are one."

Something that is not considered is that the 'trins' like to quote John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." --- So, if the Word who was a Spiritual being, indwelt Jesus, then it was the Word who spoke through Jesus. As I showed in John 1:18, that the Word (Theos) was also the Son of God, or 'the only begotten God' as it says in the New American Standard Bible in John 1:
18 "No one has seen God (Theov) at any time; the only begotten God (Theos) who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
So here, it is the Word speaking through Jesus saying:
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
--- Anything spoken of wisdom or prophecy was not from Jesus, but from the Word, --- No one but God could say "I give them eternal life," could they?

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
30 I and My Father are one."
--- And verse 30 is a favorite for the 'trins,' --- However, when the Word said, "My Father is greater than all," --- He was subjecting Himself to His Father. --- And then He said, "I and My Father are one," --- (echad) in harmony, union and purpose. --- Father and Son always refer to 2 generations. --- A son might be like a father, but there is no concept of father and son being anything other than 2 generations.
　
Quote:
why did Jesus Christ bring up Psalm 82:6? --- The answer is in John 10:
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, "You are gods"’?
35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
33 When they tried to say He was guilty because they said, "You being a Man make yourself God" --- His response was "I am the Son of God."

34 "Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, "You are gods"’?
--- Jesus was speaking to the same unjust and hypocritical judges that Asaph wrote the Psalm to. --- In fact some of the Jews almost thought of themselves as gods, as though they could do no wrong. --- It says in Acts 12:
20 Now Herod had been very angry with the people of Tyre and Sidon; but they came to him and they asked for peace, because their country was supplied with food by the king’s country.
21 So on a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat on his throne and gave an oration to them.
22 And the people kept shouting, "The voice of a god and not of a man!"
23 Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.
　
Jesus had said, "
The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me."
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"

The Pharisees were hypocrites, which was revealed early, because Nicodemus was a member of the Sanhedrin, and it said in John 3:
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, WE KNOW THAT YOU ARE A TEACHER COME FROM GOD; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
--- You see, they knew that He was the Messiah, and it was no offense to be called the Son of God, but they were jealous because all of the people followed Him and not them, as they said after the raising of Lazarus in John 11:
45 Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him.
46 But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did.
47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, "What shall we do? For this Man works many signs.
48 If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation."
--- So their common theme was to kill Jesus, and they were motivated by envy and hatred to plot his murder.
　

Quasar92 · Nov 2, 2016

valiant said:

What you are posting is what is rubbish! Either prove one single passage of Scripture verifying what I posted is false on 1211, or your views are! The Bible, Jesus nor His disciples ever taught the Trinity! The basic reason that it is false, is that the Bible clearly reveals God is the Holy Spirit AND Father! One person, not TWO as trinitarians would have us believe!

Quasar92

Placid · Nov 2, 2016

Hi,
I want to cover the other verses you gave in Post 1231:
--- Sorry my Posts seem to end up longer than I plan, but to understand the Scripture, we need to use it.
　
To continue with John 5:18, and John 8:59,

Response: --- And remember that everything spoken of wisdom or prophecy was from the Word, John 1:

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
--- Notice that it says 'the Word' was 'the only begotten of the Father.'
　
To start with John 5:18
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
--- In the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6, Jesus taugh the disciples to pray this way:
9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.

--- Jesus always called God His Father, --- so they were trying another angle. --- But in 19, the Son showed His subjection to His Father, saying, "The Son can do nothing of Himself, but does what He sees the Father doing.
--- Again this speaks of the Word, doing what His Father does, because Jesus could see His earthly Father, but He could not see the work that God was doing, except the work that was done through Him. --- The verse says, "God was manifest in the flesh," and this was how, --- the Word, indwelling Jesus, did the work of His Father through Jesus.
　
John 8:59,
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
　
--- They really would have had grounds to stone Jesus because He said "I AM" --- but before these verses, the Word said through Jesus:
23 And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
--- This had to be the Word speaking because He came from above, but Jesus was born on earth.
　
28 Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."
30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
　
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

The Word had seen Abraham in Genesis 18:
17 And the Lord said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing,
18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice, that the Lord may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him."

--- This was the Word speaking in prophetic terms. --- and in Galatians 3:
6 Just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

--- And much later when God wanted to bring the children of Israel out of Egypt, He called Moses, And the Lord spoke from the Burning Bush and said, I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. --- Then these words from Exodus 3:
11 But Moses said to God, "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?"
12 So He said, "I will certainly be with you. --- (So the invisible Word was with Moses to perform the miracles in Egypt and in the wilderness.)
13 Then Moses said to God, "Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?"
14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"
　
So in John 8 when they said, "
"Have You seen Abraham?"
The Word said to them through Jesus, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
The Jews understood that only God could say "I AM" and the 'Word was God' John 1:1

trofimus · Nov 2, 2016

Quasar92 said:

Hi, even though there is no verse teaching all triunity aspects at once in modern translations, we can derive all of it by putting various verses together:

Quick Christian Source - Bible Verses Proving the Trinity

bluto · Nov 2, 2016

Ok placid, you said the following: "Something that is not considered is that the 'trins' like to quote John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." --- So, if the Word who was a Spiritual being, indwelt Jesus, then it was the Word who spoke through Jesus. As I showed in John 1:18, that the Word (Theos) was also the Son of God, or 'the only begotten God' as it says in the New American Standard Bible in John 1:"

I want to focus on this statement, "So, if the Word who was a Spiritual being, indwelt Jesus, then it was the Word who spoke through Jesus." Who is this "Spiritual being" that you yourself identify as the "Word" that spoke through Jesus Christ? I ask because the "Word/Logos" who became flesh is Jesus Christ according to the Apostle John.

Do you want to know how I know that fact? Read 1 John 1:1-3, "What was from the beginning what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, CONCERNING THE WORD OF LIFE. vs2, and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witnesss and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was WITH the Father and was manifested to us--vs3, what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, that you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ."

It cannot be more clear placid as to the identity of the Word. In fact, the Apostle John repeats three times, "what we have seen and heard" to make his point clearly identifying Jesus Christ, (you know, the one who became flesh) as the Word/Logos. And regarding your very last statement, "So their common theme was to kill Jesus, and they were motivated by envy and hatred to plot his murder." I have no problem that one of the motives of the Jews was "envy and hatred" but they could not kill Him just because they felt like it.

However, the common theme with the verses I provided was the crime of "blasphemy." The Jews convicted Jesus of breaking the law against blasphemy by claiming to be the "Messiah, the Son of God." In fact, the Jews were NOT forbidden from executing someone under their own law. They were forbidden from doing so without Roman permission, which is why they took Jesus to Pilate and he granted their request. And btw, Pilate did not buy the Jews story but he still gave them the permission.

But here's the kicker? The Jewish charge of blasphemy was FALSE. It was not. They rightly convicted Jesus of blasphemy--NOT because Jesus blasphemed, but because they did not beleive He is who He said He was. Now, I did ask the question of why did Jesus bring up Psalm 82:6?

What Jesus was doing by quoting Psalm 82:6 was taking the Jews charge of blasphemy to its logical conclusion in order to show them they are being inconsistent. In other words, Jesus is saying, "If you say that I am blaspheming, you must also hold that God is blaspheming because he said to those by whom the Word of God came, "ye are gods." Nowhere does Jesus take back His statement and say that He is not one with the Father. He in fact draws a clear distinction between Himself and those by whom the word of God came when He says that He was sanctified and sent into the world by God. In short, Jesus is turning the tables on the Jews to show they are also accusing God of blasphemy.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

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