Can we or can we not lose our salvation?

[Chester]

I do think you got what I was trying to say and we basically agree:

"So you want me to believe these people will not get to heaven or what? How can you get any better than this?"

Response: I am just saying that is not what "predestination" is. Of course believers will get to heaven.


"So you believe an unbeliever will be conformed to the image of God, Adopted as his child. and holy and without blame?

Just trying to understand. "


Response: Only believers are conformed to God's image, etc.


"I agree, Based on Gods foreknowledge, God chose these people who would recieve him in faith to be given all those things..(ie given eternal life) "

It does not have to state it directly..

But unless you think someone can be conformed to Gods image, Made holy and WITHOUT BLAME, and adopted as his children. and not get to heaven, then we have another whole hill to climb over to get what those terms really mean, that they would not make a person worthy of eternal life and heaven. "




Response: The getting to heaven issue is a big one and an important one - re - OSAS or not OSAS etc. - but I am not trying to go there, and I think it is not what Biblical "predestination" is about. Biblical "predestination" means that when I became "in Christ" that God did the work of cleaning me up: making me holy and blameless, I became adopted as His Son, I became like His Son! Hallelujah! Praise, and honor, and glory be to God!

It seems to me that five point "Calvinistic'"predestination where God predetermines some to hell and some to heaven and man has no free choice: I don't see how that brings honor and glory to God?

 

[Chester]

Here is a 6 minute talk on predestination that answers a lot of stuff for me and it resonates with my spirit.


[video=youtube;d4Ewsad_yEk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Ewsad_yEk[/video]

Some interesting ideas, but - he uses much more than "10 words" to describe predestination:

Let me try:

Biblical predestination is that God ordained that those who choose Him would be holy, blameless, pure, and forgiven.

(Ah, I didn't do it either - 18 words!)

 

[Chester]

Ah, I think I am getting off topic of the thread - maybe we should start another one?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do think you got what I was trying to say and we basically agree:

"So you want me to believe these people will not get to heaven or what? How can you get any better than this?"

Response: I am just saying that is not what "predestination" is. Of course believers will get to heaven.


"So you believe an unbeliever will be conformed to the image of God, Adopted as his child. and holy and without blame?

Just trying to understand. "


Response: Only believers are conformed to God's image, etc.


"I agree, Based on Gods foreknowledge, God chose these people who would recieve him in faith to be given all those things..(ie given eternal life) "

It does not have to state it directly..

But unless you think someone can be conformed to Gods image, Made holy and WITHOUT BLAME, and adopted as his children. and not get to heaven, then we have another whole hill to climb over to get what those terms really mean, that they would not make a person worthy of eternal life and heaven. "




Response: The getting to heaven issue is a big one and an important one - re - OSAS or not OSAS etc. - but I am not trying to go there, and I think it is not what Biblical "predestination" is about. Biblical "predestination" means that when I became "in Christ" that God did the work of cleaning me up: making me holy and blameless, I became adopted as His Son, I became like His Son! Hallelujah! Praise, and honor, and glory be to God!

It seems to me that five point "Calvinistic'"predestination where God predetermines some to hell and some to heaven and man has no free choice: I don't see how that brings honor and glory to God?

Hey bro.. I am not a calvanist.. Nor do I hold to the calvanist view of predestination apart from free will..

I see where you are going, forgive me if I misunderstood you.

 

[Trail-of-Truth]

Here is a 6 minute talk on predestination that answers a lot of stuff for me and it resonates with my spirit.


[video=youtube;d4Ewsad_yEk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Ewsad_yEk[/video]

I agree with some things he said in this video, but here are the things I'd like to address from watching this video…


*Calling on the name of the Lord
*Religion
*Selecting souls for heaven
*Does the Lord come to us, or must we go to Him?


Calling on His name.


“Those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved” What does it mean to call on His name? It means to get baptized into Christ. Let's take a look at Paul's conversion. Seeing Christ did not save him. Believing did not save him. Prayer did not save him. Fasting did not save him. Having his eyes healed did not save him. So what did? The only thing that saves is Christ's blood, because it washes away our sins, and baptism puts us in contact with His blood- for we are baptized into His death where His blood was shed (Romans 6).


Ananias said to Paul, “What are you waiting for? Arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” We cannot get into heaven by our own merit. My name/reputation means “sinner” but if I take on His name “CHRISTian” then now my name means “perfect like Christ”. I call on His name to save me, because my own name cannot save me.


Religion


Many people look at the word “Religion” as a dirty word. This is because we've lost its true definition. Many false religions broke off of the church that Christ established, and created many new faiths (beliefs). But, genuinely speaking, there is only one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. “…who belong to ‘the Faith’” There is faith- which is belief in God, then there is Thee Faith which is more specifically the doctrine of Christ- which is the New Testament.


Those who follow Christ's doctrine are Christ's church. “…MUST worship in spirit AND in truth.” “They worship Me in vain, their doctrine is merely human rules.” True religion is obeying God from the heart. And the bible says that religion that God finds acceptable is this- to look after widows and orphans in their distress. So in that verse, which portrays the proper definition of religion, religion is not a bad thing, but a good thing. Is religion a list of rules? Do you consider looking after widows and orphans a list of rules?


Selecting souls for heaven


Does God select souls for heaven? Yes, because not every soul is going there. Does God randomly select souls for heaven as this video portrayed? No, He selects those who obey Him, and we all have an equal opportunity to do so.


Does the Lord come to us, or must we go to Him?


If Christ comes to us, where is our free will decision? We must go to Him. “Seek Ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.” In the Old Testament, a snake lifted high on a pole represented Christ. What happened was The people sinned against God, and God sent poisonous snakes as punishment. But a snake was set up so that all who look upon it would be healed (this is the reason for that medical symbol). Just as the snake was lifted in the dessert, so the Son of Man (in the form of sinful men) may be lifted high to draw man onto Him that he might be saved. You had to go to the snake, not have it come to you. You have to go to Christ just the same. “Many are called, but few are chosen.” When you call someone, you are calling for them to come to you.

 

[Angela53510]

Oops! I forgot to answer the question. No, we cannot lose the salvation we have, because it is God who saves us. (Passive tense!) But we do have to follow Jesus. That is the sign that we are truly saved.[/QUOTE

I'll read more tomorrow. Now is late 12:35PM and I am tired. But for sure you can lose your path towards Christ...read the posts I made. Ok so Justification, Sanctification are on Earth, but Glorification and Salvation is afterwards ! Read 1 Peter 1:4-9, Romans 8: 22-25, Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10: 35-39, 2 Peter 1:9-11, 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, and so on...

One more time!!

We are saved from the moment God justifies us. See Romans 5:1, Eph. 2:8-10 Both of these say that justification, OR SALVATION - is something that occurred in the past. Future tense is not used in the Greek, it is Aorist in Romans 5:1 and the Perfect in Eph. 2:8! Perfect means it "has been" done - in the past. It is a finished work. σεσῳσμένοι (have been saved)
Is a perfect passive participle. It is something done by God and complete in the past

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10

Here is a quote from someone besides me. Take heed to the bonded part in the middle.

"Simply put, to justify is to declare righteous, to make one right with God. Justification is God’s declaring those who receive Christ to be righteous, based on Christ’s righteousness being imputed to the accounts of those who receive Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). Though justification as a principle is found throughout Scripture, the main passage describing justification in relation to believers is Romans 3:21-26: “But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.”

We are justified, declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation. Justification does not make us righteous, but rather pronounces us righteous. Our righteousness comes from placing our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. His sacrifice covers our sin, allowing God to see us as perfect and unblemished. Because as believers we are in Christ, God sees Christ's own righteousness when He looks at us. This meets God's demands for perfection; thus, He declares us righteous—He justifies us.

Romans 5:18-19 sums it up well: “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” It is because of justification that the peace of God can rule in our lives. It is because of justification that believers can have assurance of salvation. It is the fact of justification that enables God to begin the process of sanctification—the process by which God makes us in reality what we already are positionally. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1)."

What is justification? What does it mean to be justified?

We are not saved after we die. That is wrong Catholic doctrine. Justification MEANS salvation. Before you come up with more false doctrines you need to study English grammar. Then, you need to study Greek, and learn the meanings of the words, plus the aspect and tenses of the verbs, and the cases of the nouns, pronouns and adjectives.

Until then, try and listen to people who have studied the Bible extensively - I'm not talking about me, but real theologians. Except Catholic theologians. Don't bother with them.

 

[Chester]

Hey bro.. I am not a calvanist.. Nor do I hold to the calvanist view of predestination apart from free will..

I see where you are going, forgive me if I misunderstood you.

Ah! I didn't think you were a Calvinist - I didn't think you were misunderstanding me - I think you were just struggling to try to keep up with and understand my ramblings.

Maybe you thought I was trying or going to try to push the OSAS button (which I do sometimes So, anyway, God bless you brother!

 

[Chester]

God did, When he used the word "eternal"

If he wanted us to know life was conditional. He would have called it conditional life, Not eternal (never ending) life.

WHo gives any man the right to change the meaning of a word God used?

Ah! This is the OSAS button. I think I'll just quit pushing mine! When we both push at the same time and don't listen to each other it just screeches for everyone else!

 

[PeterJens]

This sounds extreme to me. Being faithless doesn't mean loss of justification. It does though require an acknowledgement at some point of being unfaithful. GOD is faithful to us during times of faithlessness.

This does sound extreme because God is saying these things matter to Him.

Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Matt 10:32-33


I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God.
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.
Luke 12:8-9

Walking away from Christ is a salvation issue.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This does sound extreme because God is saying these things matter to Him.

Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Matt 10:32-33


I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God.
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.
Luke 12:8-9

Walking away from Christ is a salvation issue.

I guess we are interpreting the word faithless in two different ways. Walking away from Christ would be denying Christ, which is the ultimate form of faithlessness. But simply not walking perfectly is not being faithful. GOD does not abandon us, nor do we lose salvation, when we are faithless in this way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ah! I didn't think you were a Calvinist - I didn't think you were misunderstanding me - I think you were just struggling to try to keep up with and understand my ramblings.

Maybe you thought I was trying or going to try to push the OSAS button (which I do sometimes So, anyway, God bless you brother!

to be honest.. I can't even remember what I thought now..lol

 

[FreeNChrist]

This does sound extreme because God is saying these things matter to Him.

Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Matt 10:32-33


I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God.
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.
Luke 12:8-9

Walking away from Christ is a salvation issue.

Christ is in us. You cannot walk away from Who is in you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ah! This is the OSAS button. I think I'll just quit pushing mine! When we both push at the same time and don't listen to each other it just screeches for everyone else!

I would rather call it eternal security, OSAS seems to be a bad word for to many people..lol

 

[rdbseekingafterhim]

This is why I said cross reference is so important. Pray for wisdom and understanding on His word and read it and find parallel verses and chapters to have the full picture not a zoomed in view.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This does sound extreme because God is saying these things matter to Him.

Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Matt 10:32-33


I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God.
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.
Luke 12:8-9

Walking away from Christ is a salvation issue.

Peter denied Jesus 3 times..

What was jesus response to Peter?

 

[Ariel82]

He is blessed to have you to have his back.

No we are all blessed because God has our back.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I would rather call it eternal security, OSAS seems to be a bad word for to many people..lol

I don't like it either. Because it gives the impression that we are saved once and then no longer have a need for our Savior. When the reality is that there is never a time we do not need our Savior doing what He does, saving us. That is were our assurance lies. In the indwelling Savior who has promised to never leave us or forsake us, and to complete the work He has begun in us.

 

[Grace777x70]

I don't like it either. Because it gives the impression that we are saved once and then no longer have a need for our Savior. When the reality is that there is never a time we do not need our Savior doing what He does, saving us. That is were our assurance lies. In the indwelling Savior who has promised to never leave us or forsake us, and to complete the work He has begun in us.

Well said...I love that statement.

That is were our assurance lies. In the indwelling Savior who has promised to never leave us or forsake us, and to complete the work He has begun in us.

We need to be preaching and teaching the grace and love of Christ that brings full "assurance" of understanding the true gospel of the grace of Christ. There are "riches" to be had in having full assurance.

Colossians 2:2 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

 

[Chester]

Well said...I love that statement.

That is were our assurance lies. In the indwelling Savior who has promised to never leave us or forsake us, and to complete the work He has begun in us.

We need to be preaching and teaching the grace and love of Christ that brings full "assurance" of understanding the true gospel of the grace of Christ. There are "riches" to be had in having full assurance.

Colossians 2:2 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Amen! I agree with every word here!

 

[PeterJens]

Christ is omnipresent.

Christ is omnipresent. This is a statement of faith.
It is an attribute of the Father. We cannot say whether Christ has this attribute as well or not.

You cannot lose Christ is also a statement of faith.
It appears Jesus said if we disown Him, he will disown us. Sounds remarkable like saying you are no longer
His. If you are no longer with Christ, you are no longer saved.

I am happy that you hold a position of faith, amen, but I have Jesus words of loyalty. Sounds more authoritative.