Can women be Pastors?

[Noose]

And your scriptural support for this is...?

Eph 5:
21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her 26to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to Himself as a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle or any such blemish, but holy and blameless.

28In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29Indeed, no one ever hated his own body, but he nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church. 30For we are members of His body.a

31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”b 32This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

I suspect that this is till difficult for you.

No it isn't. First, you're fudging your paraphrase, and second, the word authentein likely does not mean "usurp authority". It's inconsistent with the context.

No, i'm not going to discuss Greek or Hebrew, i know nothing about that. As far as English translation is concerned, Paul says women should not usurp authority over by speaking/teaching.

It's not my theory; it's well-attested in the research literature.

The only authoritative literature is the bible and what we get in the bible is that women must submit to the authority of men, not because of paganism or anything but because it is the will of God.

No, it doesn't. It says that (as a consequence of sin) men will rule over women. There is no law in the entire OT that is given to someone other than the one expected to fulfill the law. Do you sweat while you eat your food? If not, by your reasoning, you're breaking the "law" (v. 19). Did God "command" that childbirth would be painful? Obviously not. He said that it would be... that's a consequence, not a command.

The consequences of sin is still with us, so yeah, men rule over women and it is a command.

A man is the head of his own wife only. As I said before, this does not give men general authority over women.

Yet women are commanded to stay silent in the assembly and not in the house.

1 Tim 2:
9Likewise, I want the women to adorn themselves with respectable apparel, with modesty, and with self-control, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, as is proper for women who profess to worship God.

11A womana must learn in quietness and full submissiveness. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man;b she is to remain quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression. 15Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

I'm sorry if these things hurt you but it is not about paganism or wives not teaching their husbands, it is just women being submissive to men as God has put it.

 

[KnowMe]

Women saved through childbearing, hmm I’m not understanding that at all, anyone know?

 

[Noose]

Women saved through childbearing, hmm I’m not understanding that at all, anyone know?

The union between man and woman is a profound mystery as Paul puts it because it describes godliness and godliness is a mystery.

It all goes back to the creation story when "...God created Him; male and female, He created them...". This statement alone is mysterious, on the outside, it shows God only created the man and gave him His breathe and in within the man, there was a woman.

The mystery continues when Eve is deceived by satan. After Eve ate the forbidden fruit, sin still did not make an entry because she didn't even realize she was naked until the husband (Adam) also ate of the fruit. Furthermore, sin and therefore death entering the world is on the account of Adam and not Eve. This shows that Adam was created from within God and Eve from within Adam, so Adam is the reflection of God and Eve is the reflection of Adam and this is the spiritual hierarchy set from the beginning.

IMO, just as there's different levels of authority within God, one being that of the son from which Adam came from, there's different levels of authority within the son (Adam) the subordinate one being that of the woman from which Eve came from.

It is through this hierarchy that salvation of the church is achieved too. When God becomes a husband to the church and the sin of the church being imputed on His account so that we can be set free. But this doesn't exonerate us from the fleshly punishment for our role in the sin, the church has to undergo a child birth sufferings for the kingdom of God to be birthed.

Eve likewise, doesn't go free, painful childbirth was her fleshly payment for her role, while eating from sweat, was Adam's fleshly payment. As much as women are paying the painful price, righteousness is imputed to them when they fully submit to the authority above them which is that of the husband while men's righteous is imputed to them when they fully submit to the Lord.

Eph 5 is a good read.

 

[Dino246]

I suspect that this is till difficult for you.

Snarky comments like that only show your character and say nothing about me.

No, i'm not going to discuss Greek or Hebrew, i know nothing about that. As far as English translation is concerned, Paul says women should not usurp authority over by speaking/teaching.

As I said, willful ignorance is inexcusable. Doctrine built only from an English translation is suspect at best, and in this case, it is incorrect.

The only authoritative literature is the bible and what we get in the bible is that women must submit to the authority of men, not because of paganism or anything but because it is the will of God.

I didn't claim that the research was authoritative, so you're off base on that. The Bible does not state that "women must submit to the authority of men"... period.

The consequences of sin is still with us, so yeah, men rule over women and it is a command.

Already addressed. It's not a command. It doesn't fit the structure of a command. The other statements alongside it clearly are not commands. Misinterpret it is you like, but your reasoning is flawed on this matter.

I'm sorry if these things hurt you but it is not about paganism or wives not teaching their husbands, it is just women being submissive to men as God has put it.

This has nothing to do with my feelings. Your view is an opinion based on an interpretation of Scripture, as mine is.

Given that, and given that we are at odds on this matter, I suggest we agree to disagree.

 

[KnowMe]

The union between man and woman is a profound mystery as Paul puts it because it describes godliness and godliness is a mystery.

It all goes back to the creation story when "...God created Him; male and female, He created them...". This statement alone is mysterious, on the outside, it shows God only created the man and gave him His breathe and in within the man, there was a woman.

The mystery continues when Eve is deceived by satan. After Eve ate the forbidden fruit, sin still did not make an entry because she didn't even realize she was naked until the husband (Adam) also ate of the fruit. Furthermore, sin and therefore death entering the world is on the account of Adam and not Eve. This shows that Adam was created from within God and Eve from within Adam, so Adam is the reflection of God and Eve is the reflection of Adam and this is the spiritual hierarchy set from the beginning.

IMO, just as there's different levels of authority within God, one being that of the son from which Adam came from, there's different levels of authority within the son (Adam) the subordinate one being that of the woman from which Eve came from.

It is through this hierarchy that salvation of the church is achieved too. When God becomes a husband to the church and the sin of the church being imputed on His account so that we can be set free. But this doesn't exonerate us from the fleshly punishment for our role in the sin, the church has to undergo a child birth sufferings for the kingdom of God to be birthed.

Eve likewise, doesn't go free, painful childbirth was her fleshly payment for her role, while eating from sweat, was Adam's fleshly payment. As much as women are paying the painful price, righteousness is imputed to them when they fully submit to the authority above them which is that of the husband while men's righteous is imputed to them when they fully submit to the Lord.

Eph 5 is a good read.

There definitely seems to be more to it, to say the opposite that women are not saved without producing a child doesn’t seem logic.

1 Tim 2
15Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

 

[Noose]

Snarky comments like that only show your character and say nothing about me.


As I said, willful ignorance is inexcusable. Doctrine built only from an English translation is suspect at best, and in this case, it is incorrect.


I didn't claim that the research was authoritative, so you're off base on that. The Bible does not state that "women must submit to the authority of men"... period.


Already addressed. It's not a command. It doesn't fit the structure of a command. The other statements alongside it clearly are not commands. Misinterpret it is you like, but your reasoning is flawed on this matter.


This has nothing to do with my feelings. Your view is an opinion based on an interpretation of Scripture, as mine is.

Given that, and given that we are at odds on this matter, I suggest we agree to disagree.

All these and still nothing. You seem to suggest that understanding comes from other languages rather than the Holy spirit- wrong
Your other suggestion is that one can only understand the bible by reading other extra-biblical literature- Good luck with that


You don't need other sources to understand simple commands such as this:

1 Cor 14:
33For God is not a God of disorder, but of peace.

As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women are to be silent in the churches. They are not permitted to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35If they wish to inquire about something, they are to ask their own husbands at home; for it is dishonorable for a woman to speak in the church.

 

[Noose]

There definitely seems to be more to it, to say the opposite that women are not saved without producing a child doesn’t seem logic.

1 Tim 2
15Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Paul's teachings are offensive to many and especially this one. The offended often try to look for other avenues to disqualify Paul's teachings- some say it is additional material/ some fall back to the original language, different meanings in Greek and Hebrew/ some say it is Paul's own counsel and not God's/ some say it was directed to a particular pagan society and not everyone.

I believe 1 Tim 2:15 statement is truth and it is inspired by God.

 

[Noose]

There definitely seems to be more to it, to say the opposite that women are not saved without producing a child doesn’t seem logic.

1 Tim 2
15Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

It doesn't mean that women are not saved when they don't give birth, it means that a woman is always attached to some man, either her father or the husband. The tradition that a girl child carry's the father's name until the day they are married when they swap the father's name to the husbands name is symbolic. IMO, submission to the authority, whether father or husband is key.

 

[lightbearer]

There definitely seems to be more to it, to say the opposite that women are not saved without producing a child doesn’t seem logic.

1 Tim 2
15Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

1Tim 2:15 but she will be saved (protected, delivered) through the childbearing, if they should abide (in) faith and love and sanctification (with) discreetness.«

Saved in the Greek is defined as G4982 σώζω sozo (sode'-zo) v.
1. to save, i.e. deliver or protect

In other words the cursed passed on to all woman due to the transgression is some how lessened and more bearable if they abide in the faith, love and sanctification of our LORD and Savior.

 

[lightbearer]

Paul's teachings are offensive to many and especially this one. The offended often try to look for other avenues to disqualify Paul's teachings- some say it is additional material/ some fall back to the original language, different meanings in Greek and Hebrew/ some say it is Paul's own counsel and not God's/ some say it was directed to a particular pagan society and not everyone.

I believe 1 Tim 2:15 statement is truth and it is inspired by God.

As you know Paul spoke and wrote in Greek and Hebrew not English. Translations do not always give a true translation of the intent of the Spirit. To think and teach one should not use Dictionaries, Lexicons and other various Bible helps to get the full intent would be a great error.

The many Christians that brought us our translations through the Spirit did it through getting an understanding of the Greek and Hebrew through many outside sources.

 

[selfdissolving]

Our Father breathes the same life into all people, the very same. The soul has n distinction in His sight. He has given all roles on the earth, in this material existence,, but many here are verging on some kind of heavenly matwerial world where all men who make there will have 70 virgins to serve them. Read what our Salvtion, Jesus has to say about men, women and reproduction and also who belongs to whom come the Kingdom. Perhaps that will clear the air on the subject. A person speaking with the Holy Spirit givi

The only reference to fobidding women is from Pau sayiing "I" do not permit.

I have not seen where woman are excluded by the Holy Spirit…….

Paul is specific in saying it is his thinking andnot a commandment from God.

1 Timothy 3:26-17
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[lightbearer]

1Tim 2:15 but she will be saved (protected, delivered) through the childbearing, if they should abide (in) faith and love and sanctification (with) discreetness.«

Saved in the Greek is defined as G4982 σώζω sozo (sode'-zo) v.
1. to save, i.e. deliver or protect

In other words the cursed passed on to all woman due to the transgression is some how lessened and more bearable if they abide in the faith, love and sanctification of our LORD and Savior.

I think this is further emphasized considering the LORD increased the issues involving conception.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

 

[selfdissolving]

As you know Paul spoke and wrote in Greek and Hebrew not English. Translations do not always give a true translation of the intent of the Spirit. To think and teach one should not use Dictionaries, Lexicons and other various Bible helps to get the full intent would be a great error.

The many Christians that brought us our translations through the Spirit did it through getting an understanding of the Greek and Hebrew through many outside sources.

I wholeheartedly disagree. While translation is not always black and white, much labor goes into selecting words and phrases that properly convey the original concepts. It's safe to say that after thousands of Bible translations, those concepts have been accurately conveyed.

 

[Noose]

As you know Paul spoke and wrote in Greek and Hebrew not English. Translations do not always give a true translation of the intent of the Spirit. To think and teach one should not use Dictionaries, Lexicons and other various Bible helps to get the full intent would be a great error.

The many Christians that brought us our translations through the Spirit did it through getting an understanding of the Greek and Hebrew through many outside sources.

Then the Greek and the Hebrew societies should be the most blessed societies in the world, they don't even need the spirit of God to gain understanding of the scriptures. We both know very well this is not the case:

John 5:39 You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, 40yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.…

These people read the scriptures in their own language but did not understand nothing.

 

[Noose]

1Tim 2:15 but she will be saved (protected, delivered) through the childbearing, if they should abide (in) faith and love and sanctification (with) discreetness.«

Saved in the Greek is defined as G4982 σώζω sozo (sode'-zo) v.
1. to save, i.e. deliver or protect

In other words the cursed passed on to all woman due to the transgression is some how lessened and more bearable if they abide in the faith, love and sanctification of our LORD and Savior.

That's not correct. The curse was about the pain during childbirth, the pain is the same for believing women, for atheists, for Muslims and satanists alike. There are so many believing women , go ask them. Whether they have a bible next to them, whether they deliver in a church, the pain is the same if not worse for believing women. Knowing Greek is not going to work where painkillers have failed.

 

[Dino246]

All these and still nothing. You seem to suggest that understanding comes from other languages rather than the Holy spirit- wrong
Your other suggestion is that one can only understand the bible by reading other extra-biblical literature- Good luck with that


You don't need other sources to understand simple commands such as this:

1 Cor 14:
33For God is not a God of disorder, but of peace.

As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women are to be silent in the churches. They are not permitted to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35If they wish to inquire about something, they are to ask their own husbands at home; for it is dishonorable for a woman to speak in the church.

I have no problem considering other sources to help me understand why Paul authorizes women to speak in the assembly in chapter 11 and then apparently forbids them in chapter 14.