Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?
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God was simply aware of the child's future free will's choices concerning Him. Meaning, God knew the child was going to accept Jesus Christ as His Savior.
God does not force salvation upon anyone. God is Eternal and He is simply outside of time and can control where people go thru out history. God knew about each and everyone of us before He laid down the first atom in creation.
For example: Imagine a bunch of balls of light at God's feet before the Lord created everything. Now say these balls of light are the souls of everyone who has ever lived. God already knows who is going to accept Him and who is going to reject Him from looking at all these lights. So the Lord can then pick up one of these balls of light and place it it into whatever time line or place as He so desires. Everyone of those balls of lights still has a free will choice to accept or reject God. The Lord is simply sovereign over all time to know what their decision was going to be and He has placed them into the timeline and place of His choosing. For God had declared the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10).
For God literally created a line of notable men of God from Abraham to Joseph. What about the 144,000? Are they not special sealed Messianic Jews in the End Times? What are the odds of that happening? Does God just create believers? Does he make some people believers and other people unbelievers? I think that if that was the case, then the Judgment would be a farce or a joke.
God does not force salvation upon anyone. God is Eternal and He is simply outside of time and can control where people go thru out history. God knew about each and everyone of us before He laid down the first atom in creation.
For example: Imagine a bunch of balls of light at God's feet before the Lord created everything. Now say these balls of light are the souls of everyone who has ever lived. God already knows who is going to accept Him and who is going to reject Him from looking at all these lights. So the Lord can then pick up one of these balls of light and place it it into whatever time line or place as He so desires. Everyone of those balls of lights still has a free will choice to accept or reject God. The Lord is simply sovereign over all time to know what their decision was going to be and He has placed them into the timeline and place of His choosing. For God had declared the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10).
For God literally created a line of notable men of God from Abraham to Joseph. What about the 144,000? Are they not special sealed Messianic Jews in the End Times? What are the odds of that happening? Does God just create believers? Does he make some people believers and other people unbelievers? I think that if that was the case, then the Judgment would be a farce or a joke.
Alright here's the question...have you received the Holy Spirit?
I suggest you stop listening to apostates.
According to your thinking since elephants are gray then all gray things are elephants.
It is necessary to know that when you come across the English word baptism it does not always mean water baptism. I will repeat so that you are clear I have never suggested that man can baptize with the Holy Spirit. I have clearly stated that water baptism cannot save. You are clearly confused over the traditions of men and biblical baptisms in the world today.
Since you have been indoctrinated in error it will require you to humble yourself and really look at the subject with an open heart and mind.
I hope that you are not of the sect that does not believe that people today are baptized in the Holy Spirit. One Holy Spirit baptism at the moment of salvation. There are many subsequent fillings of the Holy Spirit but only one baptism.
Not all gray things are elephants even though elephants are gray.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I suggest you stop listening to apostates.
According to your thinking since elephants are gray then all gray things are elephants.
It is necessary to know that when you come across the English word baptism it does not always mean water baptism. I will repeat so that you are clear I have never suggested that man can baptize with the Holy Spirit. I have clearly stated that water baptism cannot save. You are clearly confused over the traditions of men and biblical baptisms in the world today.
Since you have been indoctrinated in error it will require you to humble yourself and really look at the subject with an open heart and mind.
I hope that you are not of the sect that does not believe that people today are baptized in the Holy Spirit. One Holy Spirit baptism at the moment of salvation. There are many subsequent fillings of the Holy Spirit but only one baptism.
Not all gray things are elephants even though elephants are gray.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
No. In Galatians, Paul is referencing how the brethren are trying to go back to the Law of Moses thru circumcision. The Law of Moses was fulfilled on the cross. However, Paul is not talking about the moral law which is a part of the New Testament Commands given to us by Christ and supported by Paul (Which is to love God and love your neighbor). Paul repeatedly warns in the Scriptures that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. He said "be not deceived" concerning that matter. Get a piece of paper out and a pencil. Please objectively write down all phrases that appear to relate to the old man and not the new man. In Romans 7: Paul is talking about his struggle with sin before he became a Christian. Just read Romans 7 with that view in mind and it will become clear. But if you do not want to see it, then that is your choice.
P
God bless you, Jason and He will keep you. You are saved by the blood of Jesus and sealed with His Holy Spirit. I hope that you will come to understand what God's definition of faithful is. Perhaps that is something more easily understood by parents. No parent EVER gives up on his/her child and God's love for us (his children not the unbelievers) exceeds that of ours.
The Old Testament is proof that you cannot sin and still be saved.
If Adam and Eve were not in any danger spiritually with God then why send a Savior?
Jews were actually cut off if they did not do certain things within the Law. In fact, I have already mentioned a list of verses in the OP (Original Post) that talk about how sin separates us from God.
I am not talking sinless perfectionism. I am talking about confessing one's sins when they happen. For if we mess up, you have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1); For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9); And all unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17).
If Adam and Eve were not in any danger spiritually with God then why send a Savior?
Jews were actually cut off if they did not do certain things within the Law. In fact, I have already mentioned a list of verses in the OP (Original Post) that talk about how sin separates us from God.
I am not talking sinless perfectionism. I am talking about confessing one's sins when they happen. For if we mess up, you have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1); For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9); And all unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17).
I am sorry. But that is a lie from the pits of Hell. You need to confess sin to be cleansed of unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). For if we say we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth (1 John 1:6). But if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).
So Jason - you believe that we are made perfect in the flesh once we are born again? If that was the case then we wouldn't even be having this discussion because the Spirit would be directing, in total control of each and every moment of our lives and there would be no problem. You think that because a person is born again that flesh does not conflict with the Spirit?
Originally Posted by peacefulbeliever
What makes you think those that believe their faith in Jesus Christ makes them born again children of God and thus gives them eternal life and they are secure in that belief - do not humble themselves before God when they sin?
Your response:
Luke 13:3, 1 John 1:7-9, 1 John 2:1, 2 Corinthians 7:10.
In other words, by your response here it makes it sound like you are saying is that you would rather associate with the Pharisee than the Tax Collector. Is that how far you really want to go with this false teaching?
You didn't answer the question . . . just like other questions I have asked on this thread that haven't been answered.
Your response:
Luke 13:3, 1 John 1:7-9, 1 John 2:1, 2 Corinthians 7:10.
In other words, by your response here it makes it sound like you are saying is that you would rather associate with the Pharisee than the Tax Collector. Is that how far you really want to go with this false teaching?
Do you know of Gods grace? Have you allowed Christ to forgive you of your sins? Why do you cling to your sin? Ps 103:12 God has removed our sin as far as the east is from the west.
It appears that you do not believe that the blood of Christ is completely sufficient to save us from our sins. You discount the intercession that Christ makes for us ever before the Father in heaven. Do not count God slack concerning His promise to save all that come to Him.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
It appears that you do not believe that the blood of Christ is completely sufficient to save us from our sins. You discount the intercession that Christ makes for us ever before the Father in heaven. Do not count God slack concerning His promise to save all that come to Him.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
There are many things in Scripture that are not explicity stated as if it had to hit us over the head in order for us to get it. For example: Paul does not state that he is talking from his present day experience either.
It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30) (1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).
It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30) (1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).
Yes, I know God's grace. Not a false grace. But a true grace by God's Word and by His Spirit. True believers do not cling to their sin. They repent and or confess of their sins. True believers do not abide in unrepentant sin (of which I do). Anyone who refuses to repent of their sins, especially when being convicted to do so by the Spirit is not forgiven. For the Scriptures say that if one does not forgive others, then they will not be forgiven. If one has hate towards their brother, they do not have eternal life abiding within them. This is all written in Scripture. I do not need to post the verses. You should be aware of them.
No, dear sir. You discount the proper teaching of the blood within Scripture. Read 1 John 1:7 again. It says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin; And 1 John 1:6 says if we say we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth. What happens to all liars? (See Revelation 21:8).
No, dear sir. You discount the proper teaching of the blood within Scripture. Read 1 John 1:7 again. It says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin; And 1 John 1:6 says if we say we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth. What happens to all liars? (See Revelation 21:8).
R
Jason, the confession was already made the day you confessed Jesus is Lord.
Now all we need to do is give thanks and praise to Him for that forgiveness of all past and future sins we may commit because of the work He done for us on the cross.
You no longer have to confess all your sins to him 1 by 1.
You don't have to wear sackcloth and ashes and whip yourself with coarse animal hair.
All you have to do is admit you are a sinner and give thanks and praise to Him for his forgiveness through Christ.
Humble yourself before God and recite the Lords prayer daily.
Now all we need to do is give thanks and praise to Him for that forgiveness of all past and future sins we may commit because of the work He done for us on the cross.
You no longer have to confess all your sins to him 1 by 1.
You don't have to wear sackcloth and ashes and whip yourself with coarse animal hair.
All you have to do is admit you are a sinner and give thanks and praise to Him for his forgiveness through Christ.
Humble yourself before God and recite the Lords prayer daily.
Attachments
When we REPENT and accept Jesus Christ as our Savior, we are saved in that moment. But if we sin again, we have to confess and repent of that sin. For when we came to Christ we acknowledged that we were a sinner in need of a Savior. That is what one does when they confess. They are continualy walking and abiding as they did the first day they came to him. Being humble always before Him. Do I believe a saint will not struggle with sin? No. But they will in time crucify the affections and lusts. It's what the end of Galatians 5 says. For those that are His have crucified the affections and lusts. Then read the verses before and ask yourself if the unrighteous shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
Scripture is my answer to that question. You might want to read those verses. In Luke 13:3, Jesus says, repent or you will all perish. 1 John 1:6 says if we walk in darkness and say we have fellowship we lie and do not the truth. 1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin. Are you walking light or darkness? Scripture says we are to confess our sins so as to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). For if a believer sins they have an advocate that they can go to named Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1). For Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation. Think about that. Repentance unto... salvation. In other words, one follows the other. But to answer the question. No. The Tax Collector was not justified. He was the contrast of behavior that the Lord was showing not to have. As I said, this is clear to see when looking at other verses (As I shown above).
Scripture is my answer to that question. You might want to read those verses. In Luke 13:3, Jesus says, repent or you will all perish. 1 John 1:6 says if we walk in darkness and say we have fellowship we lie and do not the truth. 1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin. Are you walking light or darkness? Scripture says we are to confess our sins so as to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). For if a believer sins they have an advocate that they can go to named Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1). For Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation. Think about that. Repentance unto... salvation. In other words, one follows the other. But to answer the question. No. The Tax Collector was not justified. He was the contrast of behavior that the Lord was showing not to have. As I said, this is clear to see when looking at other verses (As I shown above).
V
What makes you think anyone is "clinging" to their sin anymore than you cling to yours? This is an example of being arrogantly judgmental.
Supremely arrogant. What makes you think anyone who knows eternal security to be true does not confess and repent of their sin? It seems you condemn us only because we don't agree with your unbiblical viewpoint.
What happens to all benders of God's truth? You rely on a handful of verses to "prove" salvation can be lost, and ignore the far greater number of passages and biblical doctrines affirming eternal security. You run all over this forum aiming to skewer anyone who does not agree with you, and when truth is spoken to you, you refuse it.
I refuse to play with you anymore, because you are blind to Christ's sufficiency and authority. You love to use the words "true believer" but it appears you do not know what that means. You ignored my question yesterday regarding your wife's love -- which isn't nearly so great as that of God -- and whether it is reasonable to think such love would be violated so heinously. The reason? You think it is performance, not love, that binds us to Christ. You ignore the greatest lesson of the Bible.
I suggest you read Assurance of Eternal Security on Bible.com. Absorb it. Learn it. Believe it. One who clings to fear, and not love, can never know the complete fulfillment he can enjoy in Christ.
Supremely arrogant. What makes you think anyone who knows eternal security to be true does not confess and repent of their sin? It seems you condemn us only because we don't agree with your unbiblical viewpoint.
What happens to all benders of God's truth? You rely on a handful of verses to "prove" salvation can be lost, and ignore the far greater number of passages and biblical doctrines affirming eternal security. You run all over this forum aiming to skewer anyone who does not agree with you, and when truth is spoken to you, you refuse it.
I refuse to play with you anymore, because you are blind to Christ's sufficiency and authority. You love to use the words "true believer" but it appears you do not know what that means. You ignored my question yesterday regarding your wife's love -- which isn't nearly so great as that of God -- and whether it is reasonable to think such love would be violated so heinously. The reason? You think it is performance, not love, that binds us to Christ. You ignore the greatest lesson of the Bible.
I suggest you read Assurance of Eternal Security on Bible.com. Absorb it. Learn it. Believe it. One who clings to fear, and not love, can never know the complete fulfillment he can enjoy in Christ.
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R
Well they are saved on the day of Christ's return if they are believers or they are not if they aren't.
Jason, nobody is perfect. Even the most devout Christian on this forum or in the whole world who's only sin is to be late returning a library book is seen as a sinner to God the same way as he would see a deliberate sinner.
A sin is a sin is a sin to God. It doesn't matter how great that sin is or how small it is.
Since everyone is born in sin (Psalm 51:5) when they are born (because of Eve's doings).
We are all walking in darkness. Even if we confess and believe we are walking in the light (by being a Good Christian, always attending church, doing good deeds etc).
I can say I have fellowship with God and the Lord even if I dont attend church and do all the good Christian stuff.
Because I believe that God exists and that He will bring us all to the finish line.
And we will have an eternity to make up for it.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’d first begun.
Amen,.
Jason, nobody is perfect. Even the most devout Christian on this forum or in the whole world who's only sin is to be late returning a library book is seen as a sinner to God the same way as he would see a deliberate sinner.
A sin is a sin is a sin to God. It doesn't matter how great that sin is or how small it is.
Since everyone is born in sin (Psalm 51:5) when they are born (because of Eve's doings).
We are all walking in darkness. Even if we confess and believe we are walking in the light (by being a Good Christian, always attending church, doing good deeds etc).
I can say I have fellowship with God and the Lord even if I dont attend church and do all the good Christian stuff.
Because I believe that God exists and that He will bring us all to the finish line.
And we will have an eternity to make up for it.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’d first begun.
Amen,.
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I have been discussing the evil behind OSAS and Eternal Security for many years now. I know all the excuses and verses that OSAS proponents love to use while ignoring many other verses. I mean, when you read the Bible,, how do you like ignore so many verses? You know, verses that say you will not be forgiven if you don't forgive? Did you even look at one of the verses in my list? So I can say the same to you, my friend. Learn everything you can about verses that talk about "Conditional Salvation." Absorb it. Learn it. Believe it.
As for Judging: This is another false line of thinking within the church today. It is not wrong to judge evil and bad behavior. Jesus said, judge not by appearance but judge righteous judgment. Paul says, know ye not that ye shall judge angels? For the Scriptures say we are not to have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but we are to rather reprove them. What is the unfruitful works of darkness? Sin. Just read the Condemnation in John 3:19-21.
As for your claim that you think I believe in performance so as to be saved: Nothning could be further from the truth. Repentance and or confession of sin is what you did when you first came to God. It's the basics. It's not a performance or work. It takes no real effort to say you are sorry to God. It's about throwing yourself down before the Lord in humbleness. It's not a work. Not doing evil is not a work. Good works are preaching, helping the poor, praying, reading the Bible, etc. Good works are not done so as to be saved. They are done because one is already saved. They are evidence that God lives within you. For God does the good work within the believer. But if sin still controls your life with every second and you feel no remorse for that sin, then how are you changed or different? How are you the new man? How are you born again if nothing has changed?
As for Judging: This is another false line of thinking within the church today. It is not wrong to judge evil and bad behavior. Jesus said, judge not by appearance but judge righteous judgment. Paul says, know ye not that ye shall judge angels? For the Scriptures say we are not to have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but we are to rather reprove them. What is the unfruitful works of darkness? Sin. Just read the Condemnation in John 3:19-21.
As for your claim that you think I believe in performance so as to be saved: Nothning could be further from the truth. Repentance and or confession of sin is what you did when you first came to God. It's the basics. It's not a performance or work. It takes no real effort to say you are sorry to God. It's about throwing yourself down before the Lord in humbleness. It's not a work. Not doing evil is not a work. Good works are preaching, helping the poor, praying, reading the Bible, etc. Good works are not done so as to be saved. They are done because one is already saved. They are evidence that God lives within you. For God does the good work within the believer. But if sin still controls your life with every second and you feel no remorse for that sin, then how are you changed or different? How are you the new man? How are you born again if nothing has changed?
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