Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

[Jason0047]

As for the point I am driving at with having fellowship with God = Salvation: Well, this is important to understand because people think they can break fellowship with God because of their sin and still be saved. This is a false teaching. Salvation or eternal life can only be found in the Son (1 John 5:12) (John 17:3); For Christ alone possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16); And those who do not have the Spirit of Christ do not belong to Him (Romans 8:9).

 

[Jason0047]

*Long List of Verses That Erroneously Show OSAS*

Long List of Verses Refuting OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved):

• Matthew 7:21-23 - Jesus only “knows” those who do Father God’s will; all others are practicing lawlessness.

• Matthew 10:33 - Whoever denies Jesus before men He will also deny before His Father in heaven.

• Matthew 12:31-32 - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This means verbally cursing or speaking bad about the Holy Spirit.

• Matthew 13:18-23 - 2 people types (no root, unfruitful) come to eternal life, and then return to the lost state.

• Matthew 18:21-35, Mark 11:25-26 - Forgive men’s sins against you, or God won’t forgive your sins against Him.

• Matthew 25:44-46 - Those who do not help even one needy soul will go into everlasting punishment.

• Mark 8:35-36 - Whoever desires to save his (old) life, or gain the whole world, will lose his soul.

• Mark 9:43-48 - Get rid of whatever causes you to sin; it will cause you to be cast into hell fire.

• Mark 13:13 - But he who endures with his faith to the end (of his life) shall be saved eternally (Also see Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 4:16, Hebrews 10:35-39, Revelation 2:10)

• Luke 9:23-25 - Whoever does not deny himself for Jesus’ sake will be destroyed (eternal death).

• Luke 14:26-33 - Jesus warns prospective believers how difficult and costly it is to be His disciple… will they have enough to finish this life of placing Him above all else, bearing their crosses, etc.?

• Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus taught that the man who was more justified was the one who humbled himself and cried out to God for mercy before God vs. the man who did not do so.

• John 3:19, 20 - An important point about "The Condemnation" is that those who loved darkness hate the Light because they loved the pleasure of their own evil deeds, unless of course their deeds should be reproved (that is).

• John 12:25 - He who loves his life in this world will lose it (eternal life) later.

• John 15:1-6 - Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.

• John 17:3 - Eternal life is actually “knowing” Father God and Jesus Christ. Do you really know them?

• Romans 1:29-32 - Anyone practicing such sins is deserving of death due to God’s wrath on unrighteousness.

• Romans 2:5-11 - Wrath is coming to those who are unrighteously self-seeking and do not obey the truth.

• Rom 6:15-23 - Be a slave of God and to righteousness for holiness, resulting in holiness and eternal life.

• Romans 8:1-8 - Anyone who is carnally-minded (is living according to the flesh) will die spiritually.

• Romans 8:12-13 - We are not debtors to the flesh; if we live according to the flesh, we will die.

• Romans 11:20-22 - Fear unbelief, that if you do not continue to have faith, you will be cut off like the OT Jews.

• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Anyone practicing such sins is unrighteous, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• 1 Corinthians 15:2 - You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel) … unless you believed in vain.

• 2 Corinthians 7:10 - Godly sorrow over sin leads Christians to repent, which leads to salvation.

• 2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine and test yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.

• Galatians 5:1-4 - Christians are warned: those who later have attempted to be justified by law, … have been estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace.

• Galatians 5:19-21 - Anyone practicing such sins (the works of the flesh) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• Galatians 5:24 - Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

• Galatians 6:7-8 - Don't be deceived: sowing to the flesh reaps corruption, sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.

• Ephesians 5:3-6 - Believers practicing such sins will not inherit God’s kingdom, but will incur the wrath of God.

• Ephesians 5:25-27 - Jesus gave Himself for a glorious Church which will be sanctified, holy, without blemish.

• Philippians 2:12-16 - Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, holding fast the word of life …
  … so that: (1) you may become blameless, and (2) Paul did not labor in vain concerning you.

• Philippians 3:7-14 - Paul presses on to attaining the goal of gaining Christ, knowing Him, and being found in Him.

• Colossians 1:21-29 - Jesus’ desires (and Paul labors to warn and teach) to present “holy and blameless” and “perfect in Christ Jesus” those who continue in faith, not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

• Colossians 3:5-6 - Believers practicing such sins beware: the wrath of God will come upon sons of disobedience.

• 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith.

• 1 Timothy 5:11-15 - Some younger widows are condemned; they cast off their first faith and turned after Satan.

• 1 Timothy 6:3-4 - Paul says that if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Christ is proud knowing nothing.

• 1 Timothy 6:9-14 - Greed and love of money drowns men in destruction and perdition; Instead, pursue godliness and lay hold on eternal life (and keep this command without blame).

• 1 Timothy 6:17-19 - Commands for the rich (yes, Christians) to follow, so they may lay hold on eternal life.

• Titus 1:1-3 - Faith and knowledge of the truth lead to godliness, in the hope of eternal life.

• Hebrews 2:1-4 - Warning about drifting away: how shall we escape, if we drift and neglect so great a salvation?

• Hebrews 3:6 - We belong to Christ, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

• Hebrews 3:12-15 - Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, for we are only partakers of Christ if we hold steadfast to the end.

• Hebrews 3:17-19 - The OT Jews who sinned (did not obey) could not enter into God’s rest (the Promised Land).

• Hebrews 4:1 - Let us fear lest any of us come short of entering God’s rest (God’s promise of salvation).

• Hebrews 4:11 - Be diligent to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.

• Hebrews 6:4-8 - Those enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.

• Hebrews 10:26-27 - If we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, expect God’s fiery judgment.

• Hebrews 10:29-31 - The Lord will judge His people. “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.

• Hebrews 10:35-39 - Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.

• Hebrews 12:14-15 - Pursue holiness (w/o which no one will see the Lord) lest anyone falls short of God’s grace.

• Hebrews 12:15-17 - Many believers become defiled, and finding no place for repentance, are rejected.

• James 1:12-16 - Love the Lord, endure temptation to sin; do not be deceived, sin results in spiritual death.

• 1 Peter 1:8-9 - Believing, you will receive the end of your (enduring) faith—the salvation of your souls.

• 2 Peter 1:10-11 - Be diligent to make your call & election sure, so you won’t stumble, but gain the kingdom.

• 2 Peter 2:1, 14 - The false prophets (i.e. believers) are those who have eyes full of adultery and cannot cease from sin.

• 2 Peter 2:20-22 - If Christians are overcome by worldly sins, they are worse off than they were before knowing the way of righteousness, they turned from the holy commandment delivered to them.

• 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, God will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

• 1 John 2:3-5 - We are sure that we “know” God and are “in” Him, if we keep His commandments.

• 1 John 2:24-25 - If God’s word does not abide in us, the Father and the Son will not abide in us, nor we in Them, and we will not receive the promised eternal life.

• 1 John 3:15 - If you hate your brother, you’re like a murderer who has no eternal life abiding in him.

• Jude 1:4 NIV - There are those false believers who turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality

• Jude 1:20-21 - 3 things for Christians to do, while looking for God’s mercy unto eternal life.

• Revelation 2:10 - Be faithful until death and Jesus will give you the crown of (eternal) life (Also see Mark 13:13above).

• Revelation 2:11 - He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death (eternal death).

• Revelation 3:5 - He who overcomes will not have his name blotted out from the Book of Life.

• Revelation 14:9-11 - Those that worship the Beast and take his mark drink of the wine of the Wrath of God and will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.

• Revelation 21:8 - Anyone practicing such sins will go into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

• Revelation 21:27 - Anyone practicing such sins is not in the Book of Life, and will not enter the New Jerusalem.

• Revelation 22:14 - Anyone who does not do God’s commandments does not have the right to the tree of life.

• Revelation 22:15 - Anyone practicing such sins will be outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.

• Revelation 22:18 - If any man takes away from the prophecy of the book (i.e. the Scriptures), God will take away their name out of the Book of Life.

Source Used:
Your handy-dandy long list of verses against OSAS - BaptistBoard.com

 

[Jason0047]

Only then does salvation occur, and it can never, ever be denied or lost.

Well, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

• Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

• Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)

• The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

• Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)

• Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)

• Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14, 15)

• Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8, 9, 10)

• Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)

• Balaam (Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24) (Numbers 31:8) (Joshua 13:22) (Jude 1:11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

• The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45, 46)

• Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)

• The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14, 15)

• Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)

• Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)

• Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5, 6)

• Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)

• Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)

• Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7, 8)

• The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
  (James 5:19, 20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

 

[Jason0047]

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. (Romans 8:16)

This verse in and of itself does not even remotely suggest Eternal Security. This verse could be used by any false religion claiming that they are true (When they are not). But Romans 8 does not support Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved, though. Romans 8:1 says in order to not be under the "Condemnation" you have to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. The "Condemnation" is defined for us in John 3:19-20. It says, "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

 

[BradC]

If a believer murders, do you think God will convict them of that murder to repent of it? If the believer refuses to repent of that murder, do you think they are saved? What about other horrible sins such as hating, lying, lusting, coveting, idolatry, and drunkenness? Are any of these sins any different?

In other words, if God knows a person is going to repent, then there is no need for the Lord to leave a person. But if they refuse to repent, then why would God live inside a rebellious person?

This understanding that you continue to propagate as doctrine leaves no room for anyone to fail without the loss of salvation, reconciliation and eternal life (Rom 14:4, 5:1,2). Jason, what you fail to understand is that God has put away a multitude of sin in your life that you never acknowledged or confessed. You committed it either willfully or involuntarily and it was part of your life, but you never confessed it to God because it was so deeply embedded in your subconscious mind and heart. It had to do with wicked imaginations and thoughts (Gen 6:5, 8:21, Deut 31:21, Jer 3:17, 7:24,
Rom 1:21, 2 Cor 3:3-7) that were conceived in the chamber of imagery (Ez 8) we all have within the mind. Love covered those wicked imaginations that were sinful and full of iniquity and they were put away without God having to bring them to your remembrance or putting them before your face. Did you know that presumption is a great transgression (Ps 19:13) and when you presume against a brother you have transgressed and it falls way short of loving your brother? If you were to try and search out these things in your own life God would not show them to you because He saw them and put them away through the shed blood of Christ. I will leave you with this and you should think soberly being a man who desires to know the righteousness of God...

2 Cor 5:14-21

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Heb 12:6-8, Psalm 51:9, Ps 90:8, Ps 103:10, Is 43:25, Micah 7:18-20, Rom 4:7,8, Heb 8:12, 10:17,

 

[BradC]

This verse in and of itself does not even remotely suggest Eternal Security. This verse could be used by any false religion claiming that they are true (When they are not). But Romans 8 does not support Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved, though. Romans 8:1 says in order to not be under the "Condemnation" you have to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. The "Condemnation" is defined for us in John 3:19-20. It says, "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

Can any man have the witness of the Spirit that they are a child of God and not have the assurance of inheriting the kingdom of God?

In the original manuscripts concerning Romans 8:1 the phrase 'who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit' is absent from the text. The only reason it was added was because of verse 4. Rom 8:1 is a continuation of chapter 7 and by translation could say only two words, 'NO CONDEMNATION'. Because of what was added many have made 'NO CONDEMNATION' conditional and that contradicts the understanding we have been given in chapter 7 and the answer to verse 24. Paul thanked God through Jesus Christ (and the work of the cross) and expressed with great delight with exclamation that the things he described was happening to him, no matter how difficult they may be to understand, that there was 'NO CONDEMNATION' in any of it.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Isaiah 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

How is it you fail to quote in context? How about we look at the whole passage, shall we? Particularly, take note of the very first verse:

Isaiah 59, NASB
1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not so short That it cannot save; Nor is His ear so dull That it cannot hear.
2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.
3 For your hands are defiled with blood And your fingers with iniquity; Your lips have spoken falsehood, Your tongue mutters wickedness.
4 No one sues righteously and no one pleads honestly. They trust in confusion and speak lies; They conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity.
5 They hatch adders' eggs and weave the spider's web; He who eats of their eggs dies, And from that which is crushed a snake breaks forth.
6 Their webs will not become clothing, Nor will they cover themselves with their works; Their works are works of iniquity, And an act of violence is in their hands.
7 Their feet run to evil, And they hasten to shed innocent blood; Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity, Devastation and destruction are in their highways.
8 They do not know the way of peace, And there is no justice in their tracks; They have made their paths crooked, Whoever treads on them does not know peace.​

Isaiah presents an indictment against Israel and all mankind. No one is righteous, no one follows God. How do you not recognize unsaved people when they are described? You cherry-pick verses and lift them out of context and ignore clear biblical facts, just so you can "prove" your unbiblical belief against eternal security. You should be ashamed.

Later in the same chapter, the prophet gives the answer for all men.

Isaiah 59
20 "A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the LORD.
21 "As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring's offspring," says the LORD, "from now and forever."
​

Deliberately poor or erroneous biblical scholarship is bankrupt method of obfuscation. And if you really don't understand the context, you should read and study if before you attempt to quote it as proof of anything -- especially anything unbiblical.

 

[newbirth]

This understanding that you continue to propagate as doctrine leaves no room for anyone to fail without the loss of salvation, reconciliation and eternal life (Rom 14:4, 5:1,2). Jason, what you fail to understand is that God has put away a multitude of sin in your life that you never acknowledged or confessed. You committed it either willfully or involuntarily and it was part of your life, but you never confessed it to God because it was so deeply embedded in your subconscious mind and heart. It had to do with wicked imaginations and thoughts (Gen 6:5, 8:21, Deut 31:21, Jer 3:17, 7:24,
Rom 1:21, 2 Cor 3:3-7) that were conceived in the chamber of imagery (Ez 8) we all have within the mind. Love covered those wicked imaginations that were sinful and full of iniquity and they were put away without God having to bring them to your remembrance or putting them before your face. Did you know that presumption is a great transgression (Ps 19:13) and when you presume against a brother you have transgressed and it falls way short of loving your brother? If you were to try and search out these things in your own life God would not show them to you because He saw them and put them away through the shed blood of Christ. I will leave you with this and you should think soberly being a man who desires to know the righteousness of God...

2 Cor 5:14-21

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Heb 12:6-8, Psalm 51:9, Ps 90:8, Ps 103:10, Is 43:25, Micah 7:18-20, Rom 4:7,8, Heb 8:12, 10:17,

if the topic is still about fellowship ...it is pretty clear in scripture those out of fellowship are in sin and thus not in a saved state...
1 John 1:3-7King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I understand your confusion. During Christ's ministry, Jesus was the First Comforter that lived in the hearts of his disciples and those who believed in Him. Hence, why He said He would send them another Comforter. Yes, Jesus is a physical man, but he also is God, too. For Jesus said, where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is admist them. Jesus also said,

"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world sees me no more; but you see me: because I live, you shall live also. At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you." (John 14:17-20).

In fact, John the Baptist was the last great OT prophet, and he had the Holy Ghost since birth.

In addition, I know I said this before, but I want to stress the importance that Jesus appeared surprised that Nicodemus did not know about how someone should be born again.

Side Note:

This is not what Jesus really looked like. He is not white or European, and he did not have long hair. Nobody knows what he rreally looked like. But Jesus was Jewish and would have been darker in skin color.

Oh, I think that you misunderstood me - I am not confused at all. I understand all of the above [and what I posted] I posted it as a question to you. You seem to think that the new birth has been available throughout the scripture . . . How is it that God in Christ is in us? Is it because of the new birth? And what does "born" mean? Actually John the Baptist was the only person recorded in scripture that had the holy Spirit since birth.

Yes because Nicodemus should have known what had been prophesied - "I will put my Spirit IN you" . . . I think the term "born again" had him a little confused.

 

[Nick01]

If a believer murders, do you think God will convict them of that murder to repent of it? If the believer refuses to repent of that murder, do you think they are saved? What about other horrible sins such as hating, lying, lusting, coveting, idolatry, and drunkenness? Are any of these sins any different?

In other words, if God knows a person is going to repent, then there is no need for the Lord to leave a person. But if they refuse to repent, then why would God live inside a rebellious person?

Well, I was not and still am not overly interested in getting into an argument with you on the content of this thread - I came, gave my thought, and I'm ready to tap out.

But three things:

1. Could or would a genuine believer murder someone? Why or why not?
2. Could or would a genuine believer, if for some reason they DID kill someone, fail to repent of that sin and try to make some kind of restitution? Why or why not?
3. As the kind of contrast to your original questions, is someone's fellowship with God actually secured by them NOT murdering people, or NOT failing to repent of sin? Why or why not?

Not questions for argument, just for reflection.

 

[newbirth]

How is it you fail to quote in context? How about we look at the whole passage, shall we? Particularly, take note of the very first verse:

Isaiah 59, NASB
1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not so short That it cannot save; Nor is His ear so dull That it cannot hear.
2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.
3 For your hands are defiled with blood And your fingers with iniquity; Your lips have spoken falsehood, Your tongue mutters wickedness.
4 No one sues righteously and no one pleads honestly. They trust in confusion and speak lies; They conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity.
5 They hatch adders' eggs and weave the spider's web; He who eats of their eggs dies, And from that which is crushed a snake breaks forth.
6 Their webs will not become clothing, Nor will they cover themselves with their works; Their works are works of iniquity, And an act of violence is in their hands.
7 Their feet run to evil, And they hasten to shed innocent blood; Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity, Devastation and destruction are in their highways.
8 They do not know the way of peace, And there is no justice in their tracks; They have made their paths crooked, Whoever treads on them does not know peace.​

Isaiah presents an indictment against Israel and all mankind. No one is righteous, no one follows God. How do you not recognize unsaved people when they are described? You cherry-pick verses and lift them out of context and ignore clear biblical facts, just so you can "prove" your unbiblical belief against eternal security. You should be ashamed.

Later in the same chapter, the prophet gives the answer for all men.

Isaiah 59
20 "A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the LORD.
21 "As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring's offspring," says the LORD, "from now and forever."
​

Deliberately poor or erroneous biblical scholarship is bankrupt method of obfuscation. And if you really don't understand the context, you should read and study if before you attempt to quote it as proof of anything -- especially anything unbiblical.

what is your concept of eternal security???
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
does it say for those who disobey also??? salvation in Christ is eternal ...obedience depends on you.so your ES depends on your obedience to God......what happens if you die in disobedience???.so much for ES and OSAS

 

[kennethcadwell]

I know man cannot administer the baptism of the Holy Spirit - who says man has to administer a baptism? Jesus Christ administers the baptism with Holy Spirit to all who believe and have faith in him. Why wouldn't I want to be baptized with the "greater" baptism of our Lord Jesus Christ and be immersed with Holy Spirit?

Anyway that is not what this thread is about . . .

Our Lord Jesus Christ commanded man to do baptizing in His name, which is immersion in water.................


Matthew 28:16-20


The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

what is your concept of eternal security???
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
does it say for those who disobey also??? salvation in Christ is eternal ...obedience depends on you.so your ES depends on your obedience to God......what happens if you die in disobedience???.so much for ES and OSAS

Quoting without understanding again. This is getting tiresome.

"Obey" -- ὑπακούω "to listen, harken." And what does Jesus say, to which we must harken?

John 6, NASB
47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. ​

God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. Certainly that means that we must do as Paul instructed Timothy.

1 Timothy 4​

7 But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness;
8 for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.
​

I just quoted that on another thread, but it applies here as well. We are to grow in Christlikeness, and we do so by seeking godliness, which is obedience to the command. This is the kind of "obedience" Jesus expects of us. Certainly we must confess our sins, but this hard-headed insistence that sin destroys our relationship with God is unbiblical. Christ has made us righteous through His blood, not through anything we have done. By the same token, nothing we can do can "undo" what He has done for us.

The word εὐσέβεια in the Greek, translated "godliness" here, means devoutness, reverence, respect, even piety, toward God. It implies that the "doing" of the spiritual disciplines -- Bible reading and study, worship, prayer, fellowship, personal reflection, and service -- is "obedience," and causes the heart to follow the action. In other words, doing these things changes our heart/spirit attitude about living the Christian life so that, rather than finding it "too hard" to do, we gradually become enthusiastic about it.

This is what Christ seeks from us. As long as we abide in the flesh, it is unrealistic to think we can totally abstain from sin. Our attitude changes toward it, however, because of our love for Him, and we now have a choice we never had before -- the choice not to sin, which a choice unknown to those not in Christ. And as we grow in Christlikeness, our consciously committed sin will decrease, because we will gradually come to the fully conscious knowledge not only of how much He loves us, but also of how much we love Him.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Luke 6:46-49


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.


If you hear or listen only, but do not do what He said then you are deceived as that mere belief does not save..........

 

[Hizikyah]

Our Lord Jesus Christ commanded man to do baptizing in His name, which is immersion in water.................


Matthew 28:16-20


The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Yahchanan (John) 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

 

[Rudimental]

Dave, I think you are missing my point friend.

Scripture clearly says that once you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart. You will be saved.

Once you are a believer, you will still sin. You were born in and out of sin my friend. You probably have sins in your life you aren't even aware of!

If you do not forgive your brother, you will not be forgiven. That doesn't say you will not be saved..

You cannot be blotted out of the book of life fool! You think God makes mistakes? You think He would add someones name into the book of life and then 2 weeks later remove it? You are deluded if you think that!

Yes, I say that once you become born again, you are saved. It doesn't matter what sins you commit after that.

Take me for example. I became born again at 12 years old. But I have sinned a lot since. Does that mean that my name has been removed from the book of life? NO! Does that mean that I wont have eternal life? NO!

God wouldn't add a mans name into that book and then remove it some time later!

GOD DOES NOT MAKE MISTAKES!

Come the day of Christs return, there will be no hate in our hearts. Hate wont exist anymore.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

My point to the OP is. You are ALREADY saved. There is nothing else you have to do.

You DO NOT have to have a personal close relationship with God or Jesus to enter into Heaven.

You DO NOT have to live a sinless blame free life. All your good works are like filthy rags to God!

All you have to do is confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Christs lives.

THAT IS IT!

You can try and live a sinless life. But you will always still be a sinner no matter how good you are or how many good works you do.

That is the beautiful simplicity of it. God doesn't ask any more from us than that.

You cannot please God without faith.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

I earnestly seek God. But I admit that I am living a sinners life. Does that mean that I will be weeping and gnashing my teeth? NO.

To be honest with you friend. It's that kind of doctrine that causes so much strife in the ministry with believers.

You can still be the worst sinner on earth. A cold serial murderer. But if you believe Christ exist, you will be saved.

Its a shame that some people can't see that simplicity of that and must quote lots of scripture to say otherwise.

It's not "contrary to what scriptures teach".

I never said its about how loudly you proclaim to be saved. I said it's about whether you believe it in your heart.

Do I need to go to church to be saved? NO!

Do I need to become a missionary and help poor kids in 3rd world countries? NO!

Do I need to become a priest, a pastor, vicar or anything else that would elevate my position amongst people to be saved? NO!

Do I need to stop sinning and repent of my sins? Yes!

But if I don't, I will still be saved come Christs return.

I will still be called up into the clouds to meet Him and all the saints.

I will be made perfect. There will be no hate in my heart because hate wont exist anymore.

We are not living in the days of the Old Testament anymore people!!

We are living in the day of Grace!

Once you are saved - you are saved. There is NOTHING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you can do to become un-saved!

I quote this to you again...

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come. 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.,

That is Paul, talking about us who are believers. It goes for Jews and Gentiles alike. It goes for people back then and people today too. It is Paul saying, you are saved and there is nothing you can do to loose that saving.

Hallelujah! This is why we should always give thanks and praise to God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Be happy and rejoice! He came back for us because He loves us.

He wants us to be happy and confident in our saving.

On that fine day, some people are going to be so shocked to see people standing at the throne of God that they NEVER in a million years thought would ever make it there.

It is the non-believers that you need to pray for Dave. Those that persecute us for our faith. Those that laugh and mock us like the people of Noah did when he told them there was going to be a great flood.

Trust me pal. You and I are saved. There is NOTHING that can take away that salvation Dave. NOTHING!

Praise God!!

There are so many things wrong with this doctrine i don't even know where to start. "It doesn't matter what sins you commit after you are Saved" Really, so do you make void all the verses that say if you do not forgive your brother, then you are not forgiven. Do you make void the verses which teach if you hate your brother, then God is not in you? Do you make void the verses which teach you can be blotted out of the Book of Life? What about the verse :

I john 1:7 But IF (conditional) we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

But you say it doesn't matter what sins you commit, they are covered, which is contrary to what the Scriptures actually teach. Scriptures teaches IF we walk in the light as Jesus walked, then His blood cleanseth us from all sin, you say that you can walk in darkness all you want and are still cleansed by His Blood, this doctrine in not of God.

friend, it would behoove you to study and pray for the Truth to be revealed to you concerning this matter, your very soul depends on it. Because if you continue to believe doctrines that are contrary to sound Scriptures, then there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth. i assure you Scriptures are True, they plainly teach us who will NOT enter into Heaven. They teach that if you have hate in your heart you will not enter into Heaven, if you have unforgiveness in your heart you will not enter into Heaven. You can claim with your mouth all you want that you are Saved, and covered by His Blood, but if you are not abiding in His Word, that is to say Living in it, you will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven ,no matter how loudly you proclaim to be Saved and under Grace, and under His Blood.
i will pray that you will pray and seek the Truth and study the Scriptures, your soul depends on it.

^i^

 

[Rudimental]

I can't help to sin Dave. Sin has control over the flesh.

We are prisoners to sin.

God already knows this!

Even after people confess Christ and become born again believer. They will still continue to sin!

Whether its consciously or subconsciously.

Romans 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

This is why Christ had to come to earth and die for our sins. Not just the sins we had already committed. But for the sins we are yet to commit as well!

So we can have a NEW body. A sinless body. A perfect body. A spiritual incorruptible body.

 

[Hizikyah]

You cannot be blotted out of the book of life fool!

Psalm 69:27-28, "Add iniquity to their iniquity! Let them not come into Your righteousness! May they be blotted out of The Book of Life, and not be written with the righteous!"

Revelation 3:5, "He who overcomes, the same will be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name from The Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His malakim."

Revelation 14:12-13, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, (in conformity) with the faith, in Yahshua Messiah. And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

 

[KJV1611]

Psalm 69:27-28, "Add iniquity to their iniquity! Let them not come into Your righteousness! May they be blotted out of The Book of Life, and not be written with the righteous!"

Revelation 3:5, "He who overcomes, the same will be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name from The Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His malakim."

Revelation 14:12-13, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, (in conformity) with the faith, in Yahshua Messiah. And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

When is a persons name written in the book of life?

 

[Rudimental]

Psalm 69:27-28, "Add iniquity to their iniquity! Let them not come into Your righteousness! May they be blotted out of The Book of Life, and not be written with the righteous!"

That was King David that wrote that right? That was David's supplication to God against his enemies. He was asking God to blot out their names from the book of life. But him asking God to do that and God actually doing that are 2 different things.

Revelation 3:5, "He who overcomes, the same will be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name from The Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His malakim."

I'm not sure what your point is here. But despite that not being the KJV version. The KJV version (which is the only correct unchanged version) says "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." By overcometh here. Isn't God talking about people that have overcome faithlessness and become faithful? Not sinners over coming some sort of sin..

Revelation 14:12-13, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, (in conformity) with the faith, in Yahshua Messiah. And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

Your good works don't save you. It's your faith that saves you. So that no man can boast "I done more good works than you nee nar nee nar"

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

I'm not sure how this proves that faith alone is what saves you and not good works.