Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

Jason0047 · Jan 17, 2015

When I read verses like this, there is no way that one can abide in unrepentant sin (i.e. be out of fellowship) and still be saved.

2 Timothy 3:1-9

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."

For the above passage is telling me that in the last days there will be false men who will be lovers of their own selves, covetous, unholy, false accusers, fierce, despisers of those that are good, etc. For a man in the last days abiding in these types of sins lets us know they are not a true believer but a false believer. They are reprobate concerning the faith as the passage says. So a believer today cannot say we can sin and still be saved. This would be a direct violation of this passage. For you can't have false men doing the same exact thing as a believer. There would be no way to tell them apart.

Jason0047 · Jan 17, 2015

BradC said:

Again, as I said before, I will not share my personal life unless I feel God is directing me to share something specific that will give Him the glory.

Okay, so who does the "good work" in a believer's life? Is it God? Or is it the believer? Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10 KJV
Hebrews 12:1, 2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22, 23, 24 (cf. Matthew 7:16, 18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26, 27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

Kaycie · Jan 17, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

Well, when we look at the Scriptures we have to be very careful to not see something that we would want to see and or that is not there. For there is no verse or set of verses that specifically state that we can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved. On the contrary, the Scriptures strongly suggest otherwise. For God is the source of Salvation, Light, and Life.. Sin causes a separation between us and God; And we can see a connection between having fellowship with the Lord and eternal life within His Word.

Sin is Separation from God:

Isaiah 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Micah 3:4

Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.

Ezekiel 39:23-24

And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them

Isaiah 1:15

And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Deuteronomy 31:17-18

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29

Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord

Isaiah 57:17 ESV

Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.

Proverbs 15:29

The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2

And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.

John 9:31 ESV

We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.

Proverbs 28:9

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Job 27:8-9 GNV

For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?

Zechariah 7:13 KJ2

Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.

Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT

Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.

Jeremiah 14:10-12

Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Isaiah 58:9 HCSB

At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,

Proverbs 21:13

Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Psalm 66:18

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me

Psalm 34:15-16

The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

If you will notice the last verse in the list above, you will see that the Lord is against them that do evil. Also, if you look at Jeremiah 14:10-12 within the list, you will also take note that those who wander away God will not accept. In fact, sin being separation from God is not a new concept. For it was Adam and Eve's sin that separated them from God whereby they and all off their offspring (i.e. the entire human race) would need a Savior.

God is Salvation, Light, and Life:

#1. God is Salvation:
(Isaiah 12:2) (Exodus 15:2) (Psalm 27:1) (Psalm 118:14) (Revelation 7:10) (Jonah 2:9) (Acts 4:12).

How can you have Salvation if you do not have God?

#2. God is Light:
(1 John 1:5) (James 1:17) (Psalm 27:1) (Psalm 36:9) (1 Timothy 6:16) (Isaiah 60:19) (John 1:4) (John 1:9) (John 8:12) (John 9:5) (John 12:35-36) (Revelation 21:23) (Revelation 22:5).

How can you have Light if you are in darkness without God?

#3. God is Life:
(John 1:4) (John 5:21) (John 5:26) (John 6:33) (John 6:51) (John 6:57) (John 10:28) (John 11:25) (John 14:6) (John 17:3) (1 John 1:1-2) (1 John 5:11-12) (1 John 5:20) (Acts 3:15) (Romans 5:21) (1 Corinthians 15:45) (Colossians 3:4).

How can you have Spiritual Life if you are without God?

Fellowship with God = Eternal Life:

He That Has the Son Has Life And He That Does Not Have the Son Does Not Have Life:

1 John 5:11-12 says,
"And this is the record, that God hath given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

Did you catch that? It says we have eternal life but this life is in the Son. For he (anyone) who has the Son has life. However, anyone who does not have the Son does not have life. The words "eternal life" and "life" here are obviously tied to salvation. How so?

Well, John 3:16-17 says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

In other words, those in this world who hear the gospel, or those who seek it might be saved. For whosever believes in him will have everlasting life; For that is the connection in how one might be saved.

Besides, how can you be saved and not have eternal life?

God Alone Has Immortality:

1 Timothy 6:16 says,
"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

Christ (God) only has immortality. To be immortal means one has "eternal life." So no one is immortal without Jesus Christ because only He alone possesses immortality or eternal life. There is no verse that says men are naturally immortal; And only those who are saved have everlasting life (John 3:16-17).

A Connection Between Life and Fellowship With God:

John 17:3 says,
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Here we see that "life eternal" is connected with knowing the one true God ---> Jesus Christ. Knowing someone implies that you are having fellowship with them.

The Scriptures also say,

"(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." (1 John 1:2-3).

"If we say we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth." (1 John 1:6).

And all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).

We also learn in the Scriptures that knowing him is tied to the power of His resurrection, too.

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." (Philippians 3:10-11).

All the Seed of Abraham will be Justified "In" the Lord:

In fact, Isaiah 45:25 says, "In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified." For Galatians 3:29 says, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." In other words, if you are a true believer (that is saved), you are of the seed of Abraham and an heir according to the Promise. Yet, Isaiah 45:25 that only all those who are of the seed of Israel shall be justified by being IN the Lord.

Conclusion:

So can you be out of fellowship with God and still be saved? No. Most definitely not. "You were at one time were far off, but now you are made near by the blood of Christ." (Ephesians 2:13). For what fellowship has Light with Darkness? What fellowship does righteousness have with unrighteousness? (2 Corinthians 6:14). For we are to have no felllowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but we are to rather reprove them (Ephesians 5:11). For... "if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

How is it that if you discuss this topic no one gets angry at you, but if I discuss this topic people get angry at me?

psychomom · Jan 17, 2015

Kaycie said:

Kaycie, i'm sorry you feel that way!

if i am one who offended you, please forgive me?
though it would have been unintentional, your hurt would still be very real!
- ellie

Kaycie · Jan 17, 2015

psychomom said:

No one offended me, I just feel like some are getting angry, but not you

I just simply want to discuss what the scriptures say. A woman can't really do this much in church.

Jason0047 · Jan 17, 2015

Kaycie said:

Well, if it makes you feel any better, at TOL (Theology Online) when I debated against OSAS for many years, I was called some pretty nasty stuff by many there. Some had a very strong hatred for me there. I strived to talk in a third person way so as not to attack anyone personally. For my focus was to attack the doctrine and not the person. Anyways, TOL's policy is a little more liberal when it comes to appropriate and respectful behavior. I had to put many people on ignore there. They still replied to me even though they knew I told them I was not reading their posts. They just wanted to slander me or sling mud at me. I had to develop a very thick skin there and be kind and loving despite the way they were. So being here is like a walk in the park compared to TOL. There are some pretty rough characters there (of which I care for and love despite the way they are).

You can check out my many OSAS discussions at TOL by going to Google and doing the following keyword search:

Jason0047 OSAS site:theologyonline.com

kennethcadwell · Jan 17, 2015

Kaycie said:

There will always be some that get angry or even hateful, and start doing name calling and such at us who disagree with OSAS. Then they use faulty arguments by trying to say we have no assurance of our own salvation, which is not true. Then the other thing they do is blurr the way works was applied in the bible, and mix spiritual works of love with self-righteous works. Making all works a dirty thing or subject, as to try and cover up their own faults instead of confront them. Anything the Lord told us to do is a spiritual work that is done in His righteousness, and from there it says we are to walk in the Spirit of doing good works and producing good fruit.

Jason0047 · Jan 17, 2015

BradC said:

Uh, if you read the chapter, it is not in context to sin. Just the opposite.

Also, I want to thank you. You helped me to find one more verse that refutes the thinking that you can be out of fellowship with God and yet be saved.

Psalm 73:27 NLT
"Those who desert him will perish,
for you destroy those who abandon you."

Word_Swordsman · Jan 17, 2015

Jason0047 said:

To that I will posit this. Recently I spent time ministering to a man that's a habitual felonious criminal, trapped in the world of felons, unable to be hired by an employer that checks criminal history. It's a horrible circumstance. Up to that day he was known to be an effective evangelist among felons in and out of jail. He knows the Bible inside and out, but keeps going back on illegal drugs and dealing them to make a living.

What struck me this time was the new tattoos. He had some identifying himself as Islamic. In prison he took those on to "survive", thinking he's more secure by holding Christ and "Allah" both. He asked me "Do you think I'm lost?" I answered "Yes, if you don't forsake Islam. You can't serve both, and only Jesus offers biblical eternal life." He allegedly is promised to inherit many virgins after death (not supported in the Ku'ran), but they are all in hell. But then there's that permanent tattoo, and that twisted conscious descent into ungodliness.

Jason0047 · Jan 17, 2015

mailmandan said:

The Context of 1st John Chapter 5 Verse 16
(From Within the Epistle Itself):

What does John mean by “death?”

It is unlikely John means the physical death common to all humankind, whether righteous or unrighteous. With the exception of the final generation when Jesus returns, all humans will inevitably die. In the only other occurrence of "death" in the epistle (1 John 3:14) John claims true believers have already "passed over out of (ek) death into (eis) life." Those who do not love the brethren are already "abiding in death" (note the Greek present tense – an ongoing state of abiding “in death”). In the Greek clause both “life” and “death” have the definite article; that is, “the life” and “the death.” John is referring to two different spheres or realms: one of life and one of death.

Elsewhere in 1 John we read that those who love the saints “abide in the light” (1 John 2:10), are “born of God (1 John 4:7) and God abides in them (1 John 4:12). In comparison those who hate their brothers and sisters “are in darkness until now” (1 John 2:9), “walk in the darkness” (1 John 2:11) and “do not know God” (1 John 4:8). John is contrasting two different spheres, one characterized by light and life, the other by darkness and death. What determines in which realm one lives is one’s relationship to God and the community of faith. 1 John 3:14 is parallel to John 5:24 ("he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed over out of the death into the life”) where the exact same terminology is found.

John uses terms like “life,” “death,” “light” and “darkness” metaphorically to contrast two different manners of living; two different kinds of character. Those who love God and His children already live in light and life. Those who do not even now dwell in the realms of darkness and death. Nothing is said of whether one can change the “realm” in which one lives.

What does John mean by “ask for life” in 1 John 5:16?

In 1 John “everlasting life” is what God has promised to true believers (1 John 2:25). Who are these true believers? Those who love God and the brethren have already passed over from the realm of death to that of life (1 John 3:14). God has given those who love Him life that is found only in His Son (1 John 5:11) and those who believe in the name of the Son already have “everlasting life” (1 John 5:13). Indeed, God sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might have life even now (1 John 4:9). When John speaks of life he does not mean the mortal existence all humans have between birth and death, but the “everlasting life” from God that is found only in the Son, a life we can possess and experience in some sense now, though its fullness awaits the Age to Come.

In comparison the one who hates his brother does not have eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15) and the one who does not have the Son already lacks life (1 John 5:12). Though one continues to exist, one does not in any sense possess the everlasting life of the Age to Come. Those who have the Son and love the brethren already have “life” (1 John 2:25)(1 John 3:14) (1 John 5:11-13).

John’s epistle begins with the thematic statement about the “Word of life” (1 John 1:1-3), the life of the Father manifested in the historical person of Jesus Christ and now proclaimed as the message of “everlasting life.” In this epistle the term “life” is a way to sum up what God has done for believers including “being in the light” (1 John 1:5), the forgiveness of sins (1 John 1:9-2:2) (1 John 4:10), the granting of everlasting life (1 John 1:2) (1 John 2:25) (1 John 3:14) (1 John 5:11-13) (1 John 5:20), fellowship with one another (1 John 1:7), an anointing (1 John 2:20), love from the Father (1 John 3:1), the status of “children of God” (1 John 3:1-2) (1 John 3:10) (1 John 5:2), the hope of becoming like Him (1 John 3:2-3), the gift of the Spirit (1 John 3:24) (1 John 4:13), being “born of God” (1 John 5:1), and our victory over the world (1 John 5:4-5). John summarizes his message with the statement, “and this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son”. Compare 1 John 5:11 with 1 John 5:20.

Historical & Literary Context:

John was writing to a congregation (or possibly several small ones) experiencing turmoil caused by doctrinal disputes with former members (hereafter referred to as ‘secessionists’), individuals who had left the church and were teaching heretical doctrines (1 John 2:18-28) (1 John 4:1-6) (1 John 5:6-7). This problem went beyond discouraged or disgruntled individuals who had simply left the church. Some of them were attempting to propagate their false teachings to those still in the assembly (1 John 2:26) (1 John 4:1-3) (2 John 1:7), raising the possibility that some members of John’s congregations would be deceived and also leave the assembly.

In his opening section John lays out the main claims of the secessionists. They claimed to have “fellowship with Jesus” and to walk with Him (1 John 1:6), “to have no sin” (1 John 1:8), and that they “have not sinned” (1 John 1:10). In the same passage John provides some of the details of the controversies in play. To their claim of “fellowship with Jesus” John responds that those walking with Him “love one another” and Jesus' blood “is cleansing us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). By implication the secessionists were failing to love the brethren. As to having no sin, John points out the necessity of confessing sin and thereby receiving forgiveness (1 John 1:9). And as to the assertion they “have not sinned,” John cites this as evidence that His word is not in them (1 John 1:10).

The secessionists boasted that they have come “to know Him” (1 John 2:4). John refutes this with the charge they are “not keeping His commandments,” the logic being that if you know Him you will keep his commandments. They boasted that they are “abiding in him (1 John 2:6). If so, John retorts, they should be “walking in the same manner” as did Jesus. The secessionists emphasized that they are “in the light” yet, as John points out, they hate their brothers and sisters (1 John 2:9). When John speaks of “commandments” he is not thinking of the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Law, but of God’s commands to love Him, believe in His Son and to love one another. In other words, the community of faith (1 John 3:23) (1 John 4:21) (1 John 5:2-3). Likewise “walking in the manner Jesus walked” refers above all to following his example of self-sacrificial love for one’s brothers and sisters (1 John 3:16).

Article Source:
http://www.gospeltoallnations.org/1_...eath_-_WEB.htm

Jason0047 · Jan 17, 2015

The Meaning of 1st John Chapter 5 Verse 16
(A Quick Overview Using Various Scripture Verses):

1 John 5:16 is clearly talking about how the Christian needs to pray for another believer sins in regards to His spiritual condition. These sins can either be transgressions that do not lead unto spiritual death and or they can be sins that do in fact lead unto spiritual death (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

#1. The Believer's Sin that does NOT lead unto Death are:

(a) Sins that are truly confessed to God and cleansed (1 John 1:9)

(b) Hidden faults or "non second death sins" done out of ignorance (Psalms 19:12), which is part of falling short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

If a believer sees another believer commit a sin that they know they are confessing (i.e. a sin that does not lead unto death), they are to pray for life (i.e. everlasting life) to continue to flow within their life. This is the hope that they continue to abide in the Lord and His righteousness.

#2. The Believer's and Unbelievers's Sin that leads unto Death are:

(a) Unconfessed or unrepented sins that lead unto the second death (Revelation 21:8).
~ Such unrepentant or unconfessed sins would include murder, hate, lusting, drunkenness, unbelief, lying, robbery, idolatry, adultery, and coveting, etc (Revelation 21:8) (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) (Romans 1:28-32).

If a believer sees another believer not confessing their sins and (i.e. a sin unto death) and they are refusing to confess or repent of it, they are admonished not to neglect to pray for them, as well.

1 John 5:16 NLT - "If you see a Christian brother or sister sinning in a way that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give that person life. But there is a sin that leads to death, and I am not saying you should pray for those who commit it."

ISeeYou · Jan 17, 2015

Jason0047 said:

They dont adress you as Jason0047 but as Jason666

You poor thing. Yeah, thats a good example of what I meant on another thread about no desirable christian forums left. Even if one starts up you only have so much time before it turns into a sour lemon. They start off okay but something seems to happen and they all disintegrate into something way less desirable.

This place is the last of the nicer sites, but it doesnt take long at all to be overrun.

Jason0047 · Jan 17, 2015

Word_Swordsman said:

To that I will posit this. Recently I spent time ministering to a man that's a habitual felonious criminal, trapped in the world of felons, unable to be hired by an employer that checks criminal history. It's a horrible circumstance. Up to that day he was known to be an effective evangelist among felons in and out of jail. He knows the Bible inside and out, but keeps going back on illegal drugs and dealing them to make a living.

What struck me this time was the new tattoos. He had some identifying himself as Islamic. In prison he took those on to "survive", thinking he's more secure by holding Christ and "Allah" both. He asked me "Do you think I'm lost?" I answered "Yes, if you don't forsake Islam. You can't serve both, and only Jesus offers biblical eternal life." He allegedly is promised to inherit many virgins after death (not supported in the Ku'ran), but they are all in hell. But then there's that permanent tattoo, and that twisted conscious descent into ungodliness.

I am sorry to hear that. It is sad indeed when folks think they can do whatever they like while serving Jesus thinking they are saved. It is my prayer that people can see what the Scriptures are saying on this matter.

Jason0047 · Jan 17, 2015

ISeeYou said:

Thank you for being kind. That means a lot to me. May God bless your heart and soul for your way.

Jason0047 · Jan 17, 2015

All that live Godly in Christ Jesus will endure persecution. Verbal persecution is a much smaller form of physical persecution. But verbal persectuion is still considered persecution within the Scriptures, though. For Jesus said,

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." (Matthew 5:11).

I feel like I have lived out that verse many times. But it is my honor to live as Christ did. To conform to His image and to give Him all the glory.

Anyways, in addition to God, this video is an inspiration to me.

[video=youtube;j3lwsOPEpMw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3lwsOPEpMw[/video]

In fact, it gives me goose-bumps in a good way just watching it.

Word_Swordsman · Jan 17, 2015

Jason0047 said:

How many people hear the gospel, want the benefits, but want the world a little more?

The author of that video (Joseph?) knows to have Jesus only.

mailmandan · Jan 18, 2015

Jason0047 said:

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.
So you call the sin leading to death "unconfessed sin." Jesus made it very simple in John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. So should we add - He who believes in Him "but sins too much" is condemned or He who believes in Him "but refuses to confess their sin" is condemned? 18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. So how does verse 18 fit your argument here about Christians committing sins that lead them to the lake of fire? In 1 John 3:9, John said - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. But you say there are those who are born of God that practice sin and lose their salvation anyway, in spite of the fact that His seed abides in Him; he can sin, even though he is born of God?

I'm not reading your explanation in 1 John 5. John simply said If anyone sees his brother sinning "a sin" (not a list of multiple sins) which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. The meaning of verses 16 and 17 is debated among Christians. There is no absolute consensus on what this means. The other argument is that there are particular sins that people can commit which God takes seriously enough so as to end their lives. An example of this is of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-10 who lied to the Holy Spirit. God judged them for this and both were killed. Another sin that is associated with physical death is found in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 where it is reported that a man was having sexual relations with his father's wife. Verse 5 - I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 11:29 - For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. Paul knows that the judgment of God can take on the form of physical illness and even physical death. The word "sleep" when referring to death, refers to the physical death of believers, not spiritual death (John 11:11-12; Acts 7:60; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4).

Notice that Revelation 21:7 says - He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 1 John 5:4 says - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Those who are born of God, the righteous, are not described as cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and liars. These are lost unbelievers, not believers. Notice in Galatians 5:19, Paul said - Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Now once again, John said 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Where did John say in 1 John 5:16 that a believer refused to confess their sins which led them to spiritual death in the lake of fire? Are you sure that you are not simply reading your theology into this verse? 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. 18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

In Acts 5, we saw a sin that led to physical death; in 1 Corinthians 5:5 we saw a sin that led to physical death and in 1 Corinthians 11:30 we saw a sin that led to physical death. UNBELIEF leads to spiritual death (John 3:18). So I see a contradiction with "born of God, but practices sin"; "born of God, but refuses to confess their sins."

Jason0047 · Jan 18, 2015

peacefulbeliever said:

No, Balaam did not practice divination. Balaam was a prophet of God who talked with the Lord. Balaak sent men with money (i.e.. fees of divination). Nothing in the text says Balaam desired payment or that there was a fee of divination that he charged them. Yes, Balaam was later tempted, but he was not a false prophet from the get go. Okay, let's just read the text and see what it says (Note: I will provide a commentary on the text in my next post).

Then the people of Israel traveled to the plains of Moab and camped east of the Jordan River, across from Jericho. Balak son of Zippor, the Moabite king, had seen everything the Israelites did to the Amorites. And when the people of Moab saw how many Israelites there were, they were terrified.

The king of Moab said to the elders of Midian,
“This mob will devour everything in sight, like an ox devours grass in the field!”

So Balak, king of Moab, sent messengers to call Balaam son of Beor, who was living in his native land of Pethor near the Euphrates River.

His message said:
“Look, a vast horde of people has arrived from Egypt. They cover the face of the earth and are threatening me. Please come and curse these people for me because they are too powerful for me. Then perhaps I will be able to conquer them and drive them from the land. I know that blessings fall on any people you bless, and curses fall on people you curse.”
Balak’s messengers, who were elders of Moab and Midian, set out with money to pay Balaam to place a curse upon Israel.They went to Balaam and delivered Balak’s message to him.

“Stay here overnight,” Balaam said.
“In the morning I will tell you whatever the LORD directs me to say.”

So the officials from Moab stayed there with Balaam.

That night God came to Balaam and asked him,
“Who are these men visiting you?”

Balaam said to God,
“Balak son of Zippor, king of Moab, has sent me this message: ‘Look, a vast horde of people has arrived from Egypt, and they cover the face of the earth. Come and curse these people for me. Then perhaps I will be able to stand up to them and drive them from the land.’”

But God told Balaam,
“Do not go with them. You are not to curse these people, for they have been blessed!”

The next morning Balaam got up and told Balak’s officials,
“Go on home! The LORD will not let me go with you.”

So the Moabite officials returned to King Balak and reported,
“Balaam refused to come with us.”

Then Balak tried again. This time he sent a larger number of even more distinguished officials than those he had sent the first time.

They went to Balaam and delivered this message to him:
“This is what Balak son of Zippor says: Please don’t let anything stop you from coming to help me. I will pay you very well and do whatever you tell me. Just come and curse these people for me!”

But Balaam responded to Balak’s messengers,
“Even if Balak were to give me his palace filled with silver and gold, I would be powerless to do anything against the will of the LORD my God. But stay here one more night, and I will see if the LORD has anything else to say to me.”

God came to Balaam at night and said to him,

"If the men have come to call you, rise up and go with them; but only the word which I speak to you shall you do."

So the next morning Balaam got up, saddled his donkey, and started off with the Moabite officials. But God was angry that Balaam was going, so he sent the angel of the LORD to stand in the road to block his way. As Balaam and two servants were riding along, Balaam’s donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand. The donkey bolted off the road into a field, but Balaam beat it and turned it back onto the road. Then the angel of the LORD stood at a place where the road narrowed between two vineyard walls. When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, it tried to squeeze by and crushed Balaam’s foot against the wall. So Balaam beat the donkey again. Then the angel of the LORD moved farther down the road and stood in a place too narrow for the donkey to get by at all. This time when the donkey saw the angel, it lay down under Balaam. In a fit of rage Balaam beat the animal again with his staff.

mailmandan · Jan 18, 2015

newbirth said:

NO. James 2:14 - What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. We are saved by the kind of faith that is accompanied (confirmed, authenticated) by works. We are justified by faith but only by true faith, a faith proved to be true if it is followed by good works. We are not doing good works to become saved (Ephesians 2:10), we are doing good works because we have already been saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:5-9). Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9); yet genuine saving faith in Christ will be substantiated and confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24).

mailmandan · Jan 18, 2015

Jason0047 said:

I believe that verse but I don't ignore the verses before and after verse 9. 1 John 1:8 - If we SAY that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we SAY that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

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