Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?
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B
Just exactly what are those good works that have been flowing through and from you? Surely you can mention those without violating your privacy. We are to boost in the Lord and the goodness of God. We are to provoke one another unto love and good works. We have been redeemed and ordained by God unto good works. Is not proclaiming and declaring the good works of God part of our praise and what He has done in that goodness unto the children of men? Shall we not shout it from the roof tops as we let our light so shine before men that they might see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven!
Psalm 145:4 One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts.
Psalm 73:28 But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord God, that I may declare all thy works.
Psalm 107:8,15,21,31 Oh that men would praise the Lord for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
Psalm 145:4 One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts.
Psalm 73:28 But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord God, that I may declare all thy works.
Psalm 107:8,15,21,31 Oh that men would praise the Lord for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
P
God chose to come to us clothed in human flesh and frailty at just the right time.
part of that choice was that the children of Israel were under Roman rule.
has anyone looked into the historicity of adoption in said Roman law?
it could not be undone.
Roman aristocrats didn't necessarily grant heirship to natural born children.
they would often adopt an heir...anyone they deemed worthy, and was the highest honor one could confer.
the adoption ceremony proclaimed you heir to the estate of the nobleman.
it could not be reversed...as long as you were alive, you were the heir and adopted, legit son.
that's why the term is used in Eph 1:5; Rom 8:15; Gal 4:5.
believers are deemed worthy not on the basis of their own works,
but based on Christ's.
part of that choice was that the children of Israel were under Roman rule.
has anyone looked into the historicity of adoption in said Roman law?
it could not be undone.
Roman aristocrats didn't necessarily grant heirship to natural born children.
they would often adopt an heir...anyone they deemed worthy, and was the highest honor one could confer.
the adoption ceremony proclaimed you heir to the estate of the nobleman.
it could not be reversed...as long as you were alive, you were the heir and adopted, legit son.
that's why the term is used in Eph 1:5; Rom 8:15; Gal 4:5.
believers are deemed worthy not on the basis of their own works,
but based on Christ's.
DiscipleDave said
Blaspheme of the Holy Ghost can not be forgiven. So tell me, if a person is Saved and they are always Saved, and lets say the blaspheme the Holy Ghost, are they still SAVED? Yes or No?
How many hundreds of example like this one does the OSAS camp ignore, refute, make void, or cast off? If OSAS is True, then a person who is SAVED can't possibly blaspheme the Holy Ghost can they? Because if they could, then OSAS is not, nor can be the Truth. Because it is not the Truth. but keep holding on to that false doctrine, because it makes you feel all fuzzy and warm inside. Does not make it True though.
And you are absolutely right in saying OSAS does not advocate free sinning. But what it does do, is teach that if you did live in continual sins you are still SAVED. matters of fact it teaches that you CAN blaspheme the Holy Ghost and still be SAVED. it teaches that when a person is SAVED their name is written in the Book of Life and can NEVER be removed, because Once Saved, You are Always SAVED, despite the Word of God teaches a person name can be blotted out of the Book of Life. So your right OSAS does not advocate free sinning, it advocates that if you do your still SAVED.
Is it not written that there is no temptation that is so strong that you can't handle it? Now if there were sins that were so strong that you could not handle it, i would understand your above statement, that we should abstain from sin as much as humanly possible. But every temptation is such that it is only strong enough that you CAN handle it, and with every temptation Jesus allows a path out of that temptation, are you now saying that it is not humanly possible to do so? know this. There is no sin that you do that you can't cease from, therefore be prepared to answer for yourself on Judgement Day WHY you did not cease from them.
True, But True forgiveness is granted to those who Truly repent.
a man comes home and beats his wife, afterwards he repents and says he is sorry. The next night he comes home from work and again beats his wife, and again repents and says he is sorry. This he does every night, beats his wife, and repents of it. Tell me, how sorry is he, even though he repents of it?
A Saved person commits fornication, and he goes to God in prayer and repents of it. He again commits fornication and again repents of it to God in prayer. Another week goes by and again he commits fornication and again repents of it. This he continues to do, to fornicate then repent of it. Tell me how sorry is he, if he continues to fornicate?
i will tell you the Truth, that man even though he claims to be Saved, and a Christian, will be judged as a fornicator, which will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, despite how many time he repents of his fornicating.
A person Truly repents of a particular sin when they repent of it, AND CEASE to ever do it again, this man will be forgiven and not be found a fornicator on Judgment Day.
Do you know how a person can tell if they are being truly repentant. When a person prays to God and Says God please forgive me of ____________________, i will NEVER do it again.
NOT this generation this generation prays to God "God please forgive me of ________________________. KNOWING full well they will do it again. This person is NOT forgiven, even though they repented with their mouths of it.
The Strength and the power of the cross applies to a person when the are SAVED, the moment they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. It is at that moment, that Jesus took the punishments for that persons sins up to that point in their life, by His Stripes, it is at that time, when Christ went to the cross and died for that person on the cross.
What do you think Jesus goes to the cross every single time you commit a sin and ask for forgiveness? God forbid, this Jesus did for us ONCE, the moment we accept Him as our Savior and Lord, is when He did that for that person. He does not continually go to the cross over and over and over again. You do error if you think He does.
The Power and the Strength of the cross is to SAVE the lost, to SAVE the unbelievers. to SAVE the UNSAVED. If it were not for the power and the Strength of the cross, nobody could be SAVED.
^i^
How many hundreds of example like this one does the OSAS camp ignore, refute, make void, or cast off? If OSAS is True, then a person who is SAVED can't possibly blaspheme the Holy Ghost can they? Because if they could, then OSAS is not, nor can be the Truth. Because it is not the Truth. but keep holding on to that false doctrine, because it makes you feel all fuzzy and warm inside. Does not make it True though.
And you are absolutely right in saying OSAS does not advocate free sinning. But what it does do, is teach that if you did live in continual sins you are still SAVED. matters of fact it teaches that you CAN blaspheme the Holy Ghost and still be SAVED. it teaches that when a person is SAVED their name is written in the Book of Life and can NEVER be removed, because Once Saved, You are Always SAVED, despite the Word of God teaches a person name can be blotted out of the Book of Life. So your right OSAS does not advocate free sinning, it advocates that if you do your still SAVED.
Is it not written that there is no temptation that is so strong that you can't handle it? Now if there were sins that were so strong that you could not handle it, i would understand your above statement, that we should abstain from sin as much as humanly possible. But every temptation is such that it is only strong enough that you CAN handle it, and with every temptation Jesus allows a path out of that temptation, are you now saying that it is not humanly possible to do so? know this. There is no sin that you do that you can't cease from, therefore be prepared to answer for yourself on Judgement Day WHY you did not cease from them.
True, But True forgiveness is granted to those who Truly repent.
a man comes home and beats his wife, afterwards he repents and says he is sorry. The next night he comes home from work and again beats his wife, and again repents and says he is sorry. This he does every night, beats his wife, and repents of it. Tell me, how sorry is he, even though he repents of it?
A Saved person commits fornication, and he goes to God in prayer and repents of it. He again commits fornication and again repents of it to God in prayer. Another week goes by and again he commits fornication and again repents of it. This he continues to do, to fornicate then repent of it. Tell me how sorry is he, if he continues to fornicate?
i will tell you the Truth, that man even though he claims to be Saved, and a Christian, will be judged as a fornicator, which will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, despite how many time he repents of his fornicating.
A person Truly repents of a particular sin when they repent of it, AND CEASE to ever do it again, this man will be forgiven and not be found a fornicator on Judgment Day.
Do you know how a person can tell if they are being truly repentant. When a person prays to God and Says God please forgive me of ____________________, i will NEVER do it again.
NOT this generation this generation prays to God "God please forgive me of ________________________. KNOWING full well they will do it again. This person is NOT forgiven, even though they repented with their mouths of it.
The Strength and the power of the cross applies to a person when the are SAVED, the moment they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. It is at that moment, that Jesus took the punishments for that persons sins up to that point in their life, by His Stripes, it is at that time, when Christ went to the cross and died for that person on the cross.
What do you think Jesus goes to the cross every single time you commit a sin and ask for forgiveness? God forbid, this Jesus did for us ONCE, the moment we accept Him as our Savior and Lord, is when He did that for that person. He does not continually go to the cross over and over and over again. You do error if you think He does.
The Power and the Strength of the cross is to SAVE the lost, to SAVE the unbelievers. to SAVE the UNSAVED. If it were not for the power and the Strength of the cross, nobody could be SAVED.
^i^
God does hold us securely and God will do all that He can to keep us, for it is written that God desires none to perish, and that all come to the Truth, So of coarse God will try to hold us securely, the problem is not with God, but with our own selves.
The problem with OSAS is the ALWAYS SAVED part, its simply not the Truth nor is it Biblical, because the Scriptures plainly teach that a name can be blotted out of the Book of Life. That many call Jesus Lord, who will not be taken with Him, there are hundreds of example in the Bible that plainly teaches it is NOT ALWAYS, because there are some things that would negate that Salvation, such as unforgiveness towards others, hatred towards others. What about having all the Faith in the world that you are SAVED and will always be Saved, yet you have no works, what does the Bible say about that kind of Faith? it is dead. So people who believe OSAS can't possibly believe the Bible and OSAS, they either believe one or the other. if you believe the Bible you can't believe OSAS, and if you believe OSAS then you can't believe the Bible.
We are taught all our lives to believe in OSAS, but anyone who does a study of the Word of God will soon realize there are major flaws to that teaching, they will soon realize it is NOT what the Bible teaches at all, it is however what preachers teach to fill the pews, it is easy on the ears. come up and be SAVED that is all you have to do and you ARE GOING to Heaven, wow, easy, sign me up. fills the pews for sure. But anyone who studies the Bible will soon come to know the Truth concerning OSAS. i have read the entire Bible over 80 times in my life, and OSAS is NOT the Truth.
^i^
DiscipleDave said
Do i do that or does the Word of God teach that?
I John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
So if i teach the same thing, is it from me or from the Word of God? This verse and many other verses like it, is what makes it conditional. Don't give me the credit for teaching that it is conditional, that credit belongs to God and what He teaches in His Word. It people like you, who do not think it is conditional, that has to explain away this verse, interpret it to mean something other than what it says, or just ignore it as if it were not in the Bible. That verse is inspired by God, unless you do not believe that ALL Scriptures is inspired by God. The above verse teaches that it is conditional, what do you say that verse teaches?
I John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
When is a person cleansed by His blood from all sin? When they walk in the light as Jesus is in the light, that is ONLY when. But what does this generation say, they say they are cleansed by His blood and from all sin, all the while they walk in darkness by committing sins, which they know full well are sinful but willingly do them anyways, all the while saying they are walking in the light. Brother, i don't make Salvation conditional. The Word of God makes it conditional.
It does justify the sinner, at the time they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord and they repent of their past sins. The problem is with this generation which thinks they can continually put Christ on the cross and sacrifice Himself every single time they commit sin. This is not the Truth. Christ sacrificed Himself for a person ONCE, at the time they accept Him as Savior and Lord. You do error not understanding that the cross is not for those that are already Saved, but for those who are not Saved.
Are you then saying that believing only is enough? Because that is what it sounds like. Know you not that believing alone is NOT enough. please read Faith, Works, or Both to see all the Scriptures which prove they go hand in hand, not one without the other. that is read it if you want Scriptural proof of the Truth
Know you not that there is a difference between Becoming Saved from one who is SAVED? How one is Saved by the cross and sacrifice of Jesus Christ is for them that are unsaved, so that they can be SAVED. But once this is done, and they received the free gift from God which they did not deserve, they are required to DO things once they ARE SAVED.
We don't have to DO ANYTHING to become SAVED, we can come as we are. But we have to DO THINGS once we are SAVED, big difference. For example of what we MUST DO once we are SAVED is to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, and the others namely are to DO all that Jesus and His Apostles instructs us to do.
This atonement is given at the moment a person is SAVED, The moment they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. This has nothing to do with what a person is suppose to do AFTER they are SAVED.
True, and this happens the moment we accept Him as our Savior and Lord, it is as that time that Jesus cleanseth that person from all his/her past sins.
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
They are clean, they are white as snow, they are pure, they are righteous. This has nothing to do with the walk of that person AFTER Jesus did all this for that person. only what He did for that person at the moment they accept Him as Savior and Lord.
Again you need to understand the difference between what it means to GET SAVED, and what it means to BE SAVED. There is a difference.
^i^
Do i do that or does the Word of God teach that?
I John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
So if i teach the same thing, is it from me or from the Word of God? This verse and many other verses like it, is what makes it conditional. Don't give me the credit for teaching that it is conditional, that credit belongs to God and what He teaches in His Word. It people like you, who do not think it is conditional, that has to explain away this verse, interpret it to mean something other than what it says, or just ignore it as if it were not in the Bible. That verse is inspired by God, unless you do not believe that ALL Scriptures is inspired by God. The above verse teaches that it is conditional, what do you say that verse teaches?
I John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
When is a person cleansed by His blood from all sin? When they walk in the light as Jesus is in the light, that is ONLY when. But what does this generation say, they say they are cleansed by His blood and from all sin, all the while they walk in darkness by committing sins, which they know full well are sinful but willingly do them anyways, all the while saying they are walking in the light. Brother, i don't make Salvation conditional. The Word of God makes it conditional.
It does justify the sinner, at the time they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord and they repent of their past sins. The problem is with this generation which thinks they can continually put Christ on the cross and sacrifice Himself every single time they commit sin. This is not the Truth. Christ sacrificed Himself for a person ONCE, at the time they accept Him as Savior and Lord. You do error not understanding that the cross is not for those that are already Saved, but for those who are not Saved.
Are you then saying that believing only is enough? Because that is what it sounds like. Know you not that believing alone is NOT enough. please read Faith, Works, or Both to see all the Scriptures which prove they go hand in hand, not one without the other. that is read it if you want Scriptural proof of the Truth
Know you not that there is a difference between Becoming Saved from one who is SAVED? How one is Saved by the cross and sacrifice of Jesus Christ is for them that are unsaved, so that they can be SAVED. But once this is done, and they received the free gift from God which they did not deserve, they are required to DO things once they ARE SAVED.
We don't have to DO ANYTHING to become SAVED, we can come as we are. But we have to DO THINGS once we are SAVED, big difference. For example of what we MUST DO once we are SAVED is to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, and the others namely are to DO all that Jesus and His Apostles instructs us to do.
This atonement is given at the moment a person is SAVED, The moment they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. This has nothing to do with what a person is suppose to do AFTER they are SAVED.
True, and this happens the moment we accept Him as our Savior and Lord, it is as that time that Jesus cleanseth that person from all his/her past sins.
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
They are clean, they are white as snow, they are pure, they are righteous. This has nothing to do with the walk of that person AFTER Jesus did all this for that person. only what He did for that person at the moment they accept Him as Savior and Lord.
Again you need to understand the difference between what it means to GET SAVED, and what it means to BE SAVED. There is a difference.
^i^
V
Do you know what "blaspheme" of the Holy Spirit is? Did you know that for a true believer today, it is impossible?
Looking at Matthew Matthew 12:22-32 and Mark 3:22-30, it is obvious from the context that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is saying that Jesus did His miracles by the power of the devil. This is unforgivable. But could a Christian be guilty of this sin?
How?
Can someone who has been born again (John 3:7), made a new creation (2 Corinthians. 5:17), and received eternal life (John 10:27-29) actually commit the unforgivable sin? No, absolutely not. Jesus Himself said that we have eternal life, not conditional life: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:27, 28). Besides, it says in the Corinthians passage here that the Christian is a new creation in Christ. We are different--no longer slaves to the old nature (Romans 6:14). We are regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
None. We just interpret them correctly.
Absoultely right. You will note that your rant ignores the fact that the Matthew and Mark passages occur before the cross, before the indwelling Spirit, and therefore was only possible before Jesus died, arose, and sent Him, the Spirit, as our Comforter and Helper. Now, the only people who can blaspheme the Holy Spirit are those who are those who make a continual effort at rejection of the Holy Spirit's promptings to trust in Jesus Christ That, and only that, today represents what is the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against Him. Remember what is stated in John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
There is no other way to say this except, "You're full of it."
No one who knows the truth of the Bible, that it teaches eternal security -- what you so derisively and dismissively attempt to disparage through the acronym OSAS -- claims you can "live in continual sin and still be SAVED." When you make claims like this, you absolutely destroy your own arguments, because anyone who investigates that misstatement will see it is at best misrepresentation, and at worst an outright lie.
One who exhibits no spirit change once professing Christ may or may not be saved, but if over time the fact of "unchange" continues, it is likely he/she is not saved. But that isn't for me to say, and despite the fact you want to set yourself up as a judge of others' salvation, it isn't your purview either. Sanctification is three-fold. It is instant -- the new believer is set apart, made holy. It is progressive -- growth in Christ last a lifetime. It is ultimate -- upon the believer's transmission into eternity, he/she is made absolutely perfect in spirit and in soul. The flesh is shed -- it is sinful, it cannot pass onward into the next life. So the believer is transfigured, perfected in a way that is absolutely impossible in this temporal life.
There will be fits and starts here and now. The new believer isn't instantly transformed into a mature, discerning follower of Christ. Sins clings. Sin holds on. Strongholds that have been erected stubbornly refuse to be dismantled. But through the power of the Holy Spirit, who enabled faith to begin with -- you had nothing to do with your own salvation -- sin is shed, maturity sets in, conviction grabs hold, and the new life in Christ is realized, built, matured, grown. But never complete, not in this life.
Your rant is detrimental to others. You keep others from maturity. You destroy growth. You prevent ministry. You are a false prophet. They listen to you and think they must make their own effort to escape sin, and they become frustrated, angry, and ultimately stop trying -- not because they have "lost their salvation" but because your lies get between them and Christ. Stop holding people back. Stop telling Satan's lies. Be truly redeemed, and let them be as well. Trust that only Christ can hold you In Him, can grow you to maturity, can make you useful for service to Him. We have nothing withing us that can do any of those things, but we have within us Him who can do all things.
You preach fear, not grace. You hinder Him. Stop it, before you are given over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that your spirit and soul may be saved in the last days.
Looking at Matthew Matthew 12:22-32 and Mark 3:22-30, it is obvious from the context that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is saying that Jesus did His miracles by the power of the devil. This is unforgivable. But could a Christian be guilty of this sin?
How?
Can someone who has been born again (John 3:7), made a new creation (2 Corinthians. 5:17), and received eternal life (John 10:27-29) actually commit the unforgivable sin? No, absolutely not. Jesus Himself said that we have eternal life, not conditional life: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:27, 28). Besides, it says in the Corinthians passage here that the Christian is a new creation in Christ. We are different--no longer slaves to the old nature (Romans 6:14). We are regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
None. We just interpret them correctly.
Absoultely right. You will note that your rant ignores the fact that the Matthew and Mark passages occur before the cross, before the indwelling Spirit, and therefore was only possible before Jesus died, arose, and sent Him, the Spirit, as our Comforter and Helper. Now, the only people who can blaspheme the Holy Spirit are those who are those who make a continual effort at rejection of the Holy Spirit's promptings to trust in Jesus Christ That, and only that, today represents what is the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against Him. Remember what is stated in John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
There is no other way to say this except, "You're full of it."
No one who knows the truth of the Bible, that it teaches eternal security -- what you so derisively and dismissively attempt to disparage through the acronym OSAS -- claims you can "live in continual sin and still be SAVED." When you make claims like this, you absolutely destroy your own arguments, because anyone who investigates that misstatement will see it is at best misrepresentation, and at worst an outright lie.
One who exhibits no spirit change once professing Christ may or may not be saved, but if over time the fact of "unchange" continues, it is likely he/she is not saved. But that isn't for me to say, and despite the fact you want to set yourself up as a judge of others' salvation, it isn't your purview either. Sanctification is three-fold. It is instant -- the new believer is set apart, made holy. It is progressive -- growth in Christ last a lifetime. It is ultimate -- upon the believer's transmission into eternity, he/she is made absolutely perfect in spirit and in soul. The flesh is shed -- it is sinful, it cannot pass onward into the next life. So the believer is transfigured, perfected in a way that is absolutely impossible in this temporal life.
There will be fits and starts here and now. The new believer isn't instantly transformed into a mature, discerning follower of Christ. Sins clings. Sin holds on. Strongholds that have been erected stubbornly refuse to be dismantled. But through the power of the Holy Spirit, who enabled faith to begin with -- you had nothing to do with your own salvation -- sin is shed, maturity sets in, conviction grabs hold, and the new life in Christ is realized, built, matured, grown. But never complete, not in this life.
Your rant is detrimental to others. You keep others from maturity. You destroy growth. You prevent ministry. You are a false prophet. They listen to you and think they must make their own effort to escape sin, and they become frustrated, angry, and ultimately stop trying -- not because they have "lost their salvation" but because your lies get between them and Christ. Stop holding people back. Stop telling Satan's lies. Be truly redeemed, and let them be as well. Trust that only Christ can hold you In Him, can grow you to maturity, can make you useful for service to Him. We have nothing withing us that can do any of those things, but we have within us Him who can do all things.
You preach fear, not grace. You hinder Him. Stop it, before you are given over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that your spirit and soul may be saved in the last days.
Exactly, and all well put, 'notuptome".
I don't know why those who think you can loose your salvation think we, those of us who know we can't loose our salvation, want to us that understanding to sin, sin, sin.
It is as you said, knowing Gods grace, "... makes His children to have a desire for Him, a hunger for the presence of God. A hunger only God Himself can fill. It is not a hunger for sin but a hunger for Gods righteousness.
Amen!
what do you mean....basis of their own works...believers do not belong to them self...they belong to God...created for good works...
Ephesians 4:1
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Colossians 1:10
That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.Luke 9:62
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 4:1
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Colossians 1:10
That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.Luke 9:62
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
Exactly, and all well put, 'notuptome".
I don't know why those who think you can loose your salvation think we, those of us who know we can't loose our salvation, want to us that understanding to sin, sin, sin.
It is as you said, knowing Gods grace, "... makes His children to have a desire for Him, a hunger for the presence of God. A hunger only God Himself can fill. It is not a hunger for sin but a hunger for Gods righteousness.
Amen!
A. Is OSAS believe no matter what you do, kill, rape etc and not repent still go to heaven if that person ever accept Jesus?
Or
B. The person that ever accept Jesus will repent if they make sin because Jesus will chase them.
2.
Jesus forgive the past present and future sin. If we repent or it doesn't matter.
I looked at the scripture carefully and notice it says If we SAY we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth IN CONTRAST TO - But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Two separate walks. One in darkness and one in the light. But according to you, "walks in darkness, lies, does not practice the truth" = saved believer. Do you also believe these are saved believers in 1 John 2:9; 1 John 2:11 and 1 John 3:10?
What did John say about those who "walk in darkness?" 1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness (Acts 26:18; 2 Corinthians 6:14; Ephesians 5:8) and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. That is not descriptive of a saved believer. 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. - Are you seeing the connection yet? 1 John 1:6 - If we SAY that we have fellowship with Him and "WALK IN DARKNESS"; 1 John 2:9 - He who SAYS he is in the light, and hates his brother, is IN DARKNESS UNTIL NOW. 1 John 2:11 - "IN DARKNESS/WALKS IN DARKNESS." Not descriptive of a saved believer, but a lost unbeliever.
Just because John's letter is addressed to believers does not mean that everyone being discussed in the letter is a believer. John specifically said in 1 John 3:8 - the one who practices sin is of the devil.. and in 1 John 3:10 he said - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. Compare "does not practice righteousness here" with "does not practice the truth" in 1 John 1:6. 1 John 2 is addressed to believers - "My little children" - verse 1, yet by verse 19, John said - They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
It's not hard to find deceived unbelievers mixed in with genuine believers who claim to be Christians. John is simply stating what some were falsely claiming. Those who SAY they have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness lie (do not have fellowship with Him, do not practice the truth and do not walk in the light) no matter what they say/claim.
The specific "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" in Matthew 12:31 was not committed by believers, but unbelievers. This case of blasphemy is a specific one. In Matthew 12:31-32, the Pharisees, having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that the Lord was possessed by the demon “Beelzebub” (Matthew 12:24). Now notice that in Mark 3:30 Jesus is very specific about what they did to commit “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.” The unpardonable sin, is the state of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief.
What did John say about those who "walk in darkness?" 1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness (Acts 26:18; 2 Corinthians 6:14; Ephesians 5:8) and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. That is not descriptive of a saved believer. 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. - Are you seeing the connection yet? 1 John 1:6 - If we SAY that we have fellowship with Him and "WALK IN DARKNESS"; 1 John 2:9 - He who SAYS he is in the light, and hates his brother, is IN DARKNESS UNTIL NOW. 1 John 2:11 - "IN DARKNESS/WALKS IN DARKNESS." Not descriptive of a saved believer, but a lost unbeliever.
Just because John's letter is addressed to believers does not mean that everyone being discussed in the letter is a believer. John specifically said in 1 John 3:8 - the one who practices sin is of the devil.. and in 1 John 3:10 he said - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. Compare "does not practice righteousness here" with "does not practice the truth" in 1 John 1:6. 1 John 2 is addressed to believers - "My little children" - verse 1, yet by verse 19, John said - They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
It's not hard to find deceived unbelievers mixed in with genuine believers who claim to be Christians. John is simply stating what some were falsely claiming. Those who SAY they have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness lie (do not have fellowship with Him, do not practice the truth and do not walk in the light) no matter what they say/claim.
The specific "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" in Matthew 12:31 was not committed by believers, but unbelievers. This case of blasphemy is a specific one. In Matthew 12:31-32, the Pharisees, having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that the Lord was possessed by the demon “Beelzebub” (Matthew 12:24). Now notice that in Mark 3:30 Jesus is very specific about what they did to commit “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.” The unpardonable sin, is the state of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief.
So you are implying that everytime a believer sins they are not fully cleansed until they confess those specific sins? Are believers lost all over again every single time they sin and are not cleansed all over again until they confess every specific sin? What happens if they forget a sin? I believe that John has in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing an forgiveness since what he said in verse 9 is IN CONTRAST to what he said in verse 8 - "If we SAY that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" AND verse 10 - "If we SAY that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
At least we are in agreement on this, unlike newbirth. He believes we ARE saved by works.
Amen! Good works are certainly the demonstrative evidence that one has been saved by grace through faith, but good works are not the means of our salvation. Faith in Christ is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation.
If we are in a right relationship with God, then repentance and confession are not just a one time event and then we do a 180 and completely go the other way later, but are ongoing.
This is an oxymoron for believers. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor the one who does not love his brother.
Genuine believers confess their sins, and are forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness, IN CONTRAST TO those who SAY they have no sin, deceiving themselves and the TRUTH IS NOT IN THEM (1 John 1:8) and have not sinned and make Him a liar and HIS WORD IS NOT IN THEM (1 John 1:10).
At least we are in agreement on this, unlike newbirth. He believes we ARE saved by works.
Amen! Good works are certainly the demonstrative evidence that one has been saved by grace through faith, but good works are not the means of our salvation. Faith in Christ is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation.
If we are in a right relationship with God, then repentance and confession are not just a one time event and then we do a 180 and completely go the other way later, but are ongoing.
This is an oxymoron for believers. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor the one who does not love his brother.
Genuine believers confess their sins, and are forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness, IN CONTRAST TO those who SAY they have no sin, deceiving themselves and the TRUTH IS NOT IN THEM (1 John 1:8) and have not sinned and make Him a liar and HIS WORD IS NOT IN THEM (1 John 1:10).
Not with God. You confess your sins and then you seek God's help to forsake them. This is repentance.
You have to walk the walk before you talk the talk is a human expression of doing something instead of just talking about it. This does not apply to the act of repentance. Besides, many OSAS proponents do not believe that the walk is not necessary for your salvation. It's only belief that saves. Which contradicts the Bible.
Again, 1 John 1:9 says we are forgiven of sin and cleansed of unrighteousness by confessing. In the OSAS false worldview, all sin is cleansed the moment you believe. All past present and future sin is gone. No more. But 1 John 1:9 acts like sin still needs to be cleansed for the believer. This is also the case for James 5:15.
However, your view on James 5:15 is not correct, though. James 5:15 does not teach teach OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). For there is no OSAS in James 5:15. For your wrong interpretation does not take into context the following verses that follow it. You isolate the one verse that you prefer so as to fit your theology without looking at any of the other verses. The context of verses 15 that says: "IF he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him" is connected to verse 16 that says, "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed." In other words, verse 16 is clarifying verse 15. Both verse 15 and 16 say to pray for one another for healing and both verses deal with a believer's sins and how they will be forgiven (or healed). Meaning, if you confess your faults (sins) to the brethren (because you are struggling with that fault), and you are sick, then the brethren can pray over you and give you victory or life in overcoming that sin along with any sickness that might be attached to it. Praying to give one life or victory over sin can be seen in 1 John 5:16. It's about a sin they are struggling to overcome. Hence, why they are sick. Also, if their sins need to be forgiven, then why were they not taken care of? This is why the sick brother who is struggling with sin needs to confess their faults (sins) to other brethren so they can be healed both spiritually and physically. For the other brethren are walking righteously and can pray for him. For the same chapter says, the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. So this believer who is sick and is struggling with sin needs the prayers of his righteous brethren. He is seeking to get right with God before the church and or other believers.
For verses 19-20 talk about if one of the brethren does err from the truth (into backsliding into sin or the error of their ways), the fellow brother (or sister) can convert them back to the faith which will in effect save their soul from death and cover their sins (Because they helped them to repent).
James 5:13-16
"Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
As I had said before, when a person comes to the faith in accepting Christ, they don't need to confess every single sin. We are not talking about unbelievers or new converts here. We are talking about believers in Jesus Christ. For a new convert merely needs to acknowledge they are a sinner and feel sorrowful that they have sinned against God. Confession of sin is generally for believers. Hence, why 1 John 2:1 and 1 John 1:9 is addressed to the believer to confess their sin to Christ so as to be cleansed of their unrighteousness and or forgiven of their sin.
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You have to walk the walk before you talk the talk is a human expression of doing something instead of just talking about it. This does not apply to the act of repentance. Besides, many OSAS proponents do not believe that the walk is not necessary for your salvation. It's only belief that saves. Which contradicts the Bible.
Again, 1 John 1:9 says we are forgiven of sin and cleansed of unrighteousness by confessing. In the OSAS false worldview, all sin is cleansed the moment you believe. All past present and future sin is gone. No more. But 1 John 1:9 acts like sin still needs to be cleansed for the believer. This is also the case for James 5:15.
However, your view on James 5:15 is not correct, though. James 5:15 does not teach teach OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). For there is no OSAS in James 5:15. For your wrong interpretation does not take into context the following verses that follow it. You isolate the one verse that you prefer so as to fit your theology without looking at any of the other verses. The context of verses 15 that says: "IF he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him" is connected to verse 16 that says, "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed." In other words, verse 16 is clarifying verse 15. Both verse 15 and 16 say to pray for one another for healing and both verses deal with a believer's sins and how they will be forgiven (or healed). Meaning, if you confess your faults (sins) to the brethren (because you are struggling with that fault), and you are sick, then the brethren can pray over you and give you victory or life in overcoming that sin along with any sickness that might be attached to it. Praying to give one life or victory over sin can be seen in 1 John 5:16. It's about a sin they are struggling to overcome. Hence, why they are sick. Also, if their sins need to be forgiven, then why were they not taken care of? This is why the sick brother who is struggling with sin needs to confess their faults (sins) to other brethren so they can be healed both spiritually and physically. For the other brethren are walking righteously and can pray for him. For the same chapter says, the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. So this believer who is sick and is struggling with sin needs the prayers of his righteous brethren. He is seeking to get right with God before the church and or other believers.
For verses 19-20 talk about if one of the brethren does err from the truth (into backsliding into sin or the error of their ways), the fellow brother (or sister) can convert them back to the faith which will in effect save their soul from death and cover their sins (Because they helped them to repent).
James 5:13-16
"Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
As I had said before, when a person comes to the faith in accepting Christ, they don't need to confess every single sin. We are not talking about unbelievers or new converts here. We are talking about believers in Jesus Christ. For a new convert merely needs to acknowledge they are a sinner and feel sorrowful that they have sinned against God. Confession of sin is generally for believers. Hence, why 1 John 2:1 and 1 John 1:9 is addressed to the believer to confess their sin to Christ so as to be cleansed of their unrighteousness and or forgiven of their sin.
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Wanted to add after the first paragraph above.
For even a general verbal admittance that one is a sinner in need of mercy can be seen in Luke 18:9-14. God is looking for us to be sorrowful and to call out to him to save us. Many times (not all the time) this comes first before any fruit is visible.
Wanted to add after the first paragraph above.
For even a general verbal admittance that one is a sinner in need of mercy can be seen in Luke 18:9-14. God is looking for us to be sorrowful and to call out to him to save us. Many times (not all the time) this comes first before any fruit is visible.