Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

[Jason0047]

1 John 3

1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! 2 Dear friends, NOW we are the children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 BUT you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. (If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1:9; But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father -- Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:1b,2)
6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. (If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8) [WATCH THIS] NO ONE WHO CONTINUES TO SIN HAS EITHER SEEN HIM OR KNOWN HIM. (which would be an unbeliever)
7 Dear children, do not let any one lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. (Any believer in Christ WANTS to do what is right, may fall but that heart's desire is still there - we do not remain "out of fellowship", i.e. in sin because If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8)
8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning (NO ONE WHO CONTINUES TO SIN HAS EITHER SEEN HIM OR KNOWN HIM) The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
10 THIS IS HOW WE KNOW WHO THE CHILDREN OF GOD ARE AND THE CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL ARE: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child (this cannot be referring to occasional sin because "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".), nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister (17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person.)

21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him.
23 AND THIS IS HIS COMMAND: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
24 The one who keeps God's commands lives in him, and he in them. (AND THIS IS HIS COMMAND: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us)

And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. (John 3:6b - That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.)

By what you said here, this makes me believe you might be OSAS Light or Mid Range OSAS. OSAS Light Proponents believe that you cannot live a lifestyle of sin or you were never saved to begin with. Mid Range OSAS Proponents believe you camnot live in habitually in sin, too; However, they believe that dying in one unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as murder, theft, lust, lying, etc.) will not necessarily send someone into the Lake of Fire. Which position best describes your beliefs?

As for 1 John 3:6 & 1 John 3:9: Well, if a believer slips up into a sin, that does not mean that they were never born again. The "whosever" in 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 is in reference to comparing a true born again believer with those false teachers that believed that they could sin and still be saved. For these false teachers like modern day OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) teachers taught that they could have fellowship with the Lord and also walk in the darkness (1 John 1:7) because they are exempt from the penalty of sin while under his grace (1 John 1:8) (1 John 1:10).

Now, 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 teach that a person who is truly born of God does not remain in an ongoing state of sin (i.e. habitual sin). This sin is in reference to sins that lead unto spiritual death (i.e. Hell) and not sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16, 17). If a believer sins, they have an advocate named Jesus Christ that they can go to (1 John 2:1) so that they can confess that sin and cleanse themselves of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). If a believer constantly abides in unrepentant sin, they are proving that they are not loving God and thereby showing that they love darkness rather than the Lord.

John 3:19

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

I say this all in love and in the hope that Christians should not trivialize or minimize sin as if they do need to stop from sinning or to confess it. Sin is no joke. Sin is what put Jesus Christ on the cross and we should never act as if sin is no big deal. Sin hurts God and we should repent and get our hearts right with God if we do sin. For Jesus told the woman that was forgiven to sin no more. Peter had to say three times to the Lord that he loved him for denying him three times. Ananias and Sapphira were instantly killed by the Spirit for lying to God and a great fear had fell upon the rest of the church because of it.

Important Note:

Oh, and the church was made up of Spirit filled believers, so why would they be feeling fear over their deaths? It's because they went to Hell and not Heaven. Remember, death is a good thing for that servant of Christ who is a faithful believer.

 

[djness]

What is interesting is that folks who believe they can have broken fellowship with God and still have salvation have not ever been able to provide any verses that specifically state this. At least not in the history of me bringing up this topic. Also, I am not expecting many folks to look at the verses I provided, much less try and explain them using the context or it's surrounding text. Why? Well, it's obvious that people do not want to see what the Scriptures plainly say on this issue. Why don't they want to see it? It always comes back to the Condemnation (John 3:19-21); Either in regards to themselves or in regards to others.But narrow is the way that leads towards life and few be there that find it.

" Try taking a chance on seeing something differently. Open yourself to the other side of the coin. Knowing all angles of a battlefield as well as your enemy makes for a better outcome in war.

Take a lesson from Sun Tzu who offers a holistic perspective:And therefore I say: ‘Know the enemy, know yourself; victory will never be endangered. Know the ground, know the weather; your victory will then be total.’

What do you think of Peter, Moses, David? All men who broke fellowship with God? Peter the rock who denied christ three times? David had to be told of his sin by Nathan before he repented? Moses killed an Egyptian and hid the body and only fled when a fellow jew asked "Will you kill me as well"?

Did they ever have broken fellowship? Did they lose their salvation because of these sins?

 

[djness]

Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

Well, when we look at the Scriptures we have to be very careful to not see something that we would want to see and or that is not there. For there is no verse or set of verses that specifically state that we can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved. On the contrary, the Scriptures strongly suggest otherwise. For God is the source of Salvation, Light, and Life.. Sin causes a separation between us and God; And we can see a connection between having fellowship with the Lord and eternal life within His Word.

Sin is Separation from God:

Isaiah 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

​

Micah 3:4

Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.

​

Ezekiel 39:23-24

And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them

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Isaiah 1:15

And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

​

Deuteronomy 31:17-18

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

​

Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29

Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord

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Isaiah 57:17 ESV

Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.

​

Proverbs 15:29

The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

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Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2

And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.

​

John 9:31 ESV

We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.

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Proverbs 28:9

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

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Job 27:8-9 GNV

For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?

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Zechariah 7:13 KJ2

Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.

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Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT

Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.

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Jeremiah 14:10-12

Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

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Isaiah 58:9 HCSB

At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,

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Proverbs 21:13

Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

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Psalm 66:18

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me

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Psalm 34:15-16

The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.


​

If you will notice the last verse in the list above, you will see that the Lord is against them that do evil. Also, if you look at Jeremiah 14:10-12 within the list, you will also take note that those who wander away God will not accept. In fact, sin being separation from God is not a new concept. For it was Adam and Eve's sin that separated them from God whereby they and all off their offspring (i.e. the entire human race) would need a Savior.


God is Salvation, Light, and Life:

#1. God is Salvation:
(Isaiah 12:2) (Exodus 15:2) (Psalm 27:1) (Psalm 118:14) (Revelation 7:10) (Jonah 2:9) (Acts 4:12).

How can you have Salvation if you do not have God?

#2. God is Light:
(1 John 1:5) (James 1:17) (Psalm 27:1) (Psalm 36:9) (1 Timothy 6:16) (Isaiah 60:19) (John 1:4) (John 1:9) (John 8:12) (John 9:5) (John 12:35-36) (Revelation 21:23) (Revelation 22:5).

How can you have Light if you are in darkness without God?

#3. God is Life:
(John 1:4) (John 5:21) (John 5:26) (John 6:33) (John 6:51) (John 6:57) (John 10:28) (John 11:25) (John 14:6) (John 17:3) (1 John 1:1-2) (1 John 5:11-12) (1 John 5:20) (Acts 3:15) (Romans 5:21) (1 Corinthians 15:45) (Colossians 3:4).

How can you have Spiritual Life if you are without God?

Fellowship with God = Eternal Life:

He That Has the Son Has Life And He That Does Not Have the Son Does Not Have Life:

1 John 5:11-12 says,
"And this is the record, that God hath given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

Did you catch that? It says we have eternal life but this life is in the Son. For he (anyone) who has the Son has life. However, anyone who does not have the Son does not have life. The words "eternal life" and "life" here are obviously tied to salvation. How so?

Well, John 3:16-17 says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

In other words, those in this world who hear the gospel, or those who seek it might be saved. For whosever believes in him will have everlasting life; For that is the connection in how one might be saved.

Besides, how can you be saved and not have eternal life?

God Alone Has Immortality:

1 Timothy 6:16 says,
"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

Christ (God) only has immortality. To be immortal means one has "eternal life." So no one is immortal without Jesus Christ because only He alone possesses immortality or eternal life. There is no verse that says men are naturally immortal; And only those who are saved have everlasting life (John 3:16-17).

A Connection Between Life and Fellowship With God:

John 17:3 says,
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Here we see that "life eternal" is connected with knowing the one true God ---> Jesus Christ. Knowing someone implies that you are having fellowship with them.

The Scriptures also say,

"(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." (1 John 1:2-3).

"If we say we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth." (1 John 1:6).

And all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).

We also learn in the Scriptures that knowing him is tied to the power of His resurrection, too.

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." (Philippians 3:10-11).

All the Seed of Abraham will be Justified "In" the Lord:

In fact, Isaiah 45:25 says, "In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified." For Galatians 3:29 says, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." In other words, if you are a true believer (that is saved), you are of the seed of Abraham and an heir according to the Promise. Yet, Isaiah 45:25 that only all those who are of the seed of Israel shall be justified by being IN the Lord.

Conclusion:

So can you be out of fellowship with God and still be saved? No. Most definitely not. "You were at one time were far off, but now you are made near by the blood of Christ." (Ephesians 2:13). For what fellowship has Light with Darkness? What fellowship does righteousness have with unrighteousness? (2 Corinthians 6:14). For we are to have no felllowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but we are to rather reprove them (Ephesians 5:11). For... "if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

I notice on your profile it says the following:
Accepted Christ in 1992 and Renewed my Faith in 2010.
As for my personal life: Well, I renewed my faith in Jesus in 2010 after meeting a beautiful Christian woman who lives in Brazil. I am now currently engaged to her and we are seeking to marry soon so as to serve and glorify Jesus Christ in all things within our lives.

What were you doing all those years between 1992 and 2010? For someone so strongly in support of scripture stating one can fall away vs OSAS, how do you even ''renew your faith''?

This would be very informative.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

By what you said here, this makes me believe you might be OSAS Light or Mid Range OSAS. OSAS Light Proponents believe that you cannot live a lifestyle of sin or you were never saved to begin with. Mid Range OSAS Proponents believe you camnot live in habitually in sin, too; However, they believe that dying in one unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as murder, theft, lust, lying, etc.) will not necessarily send someone into the Lake of Fire. Which position best describes your beliefs?

I believe in what I posted concerning 1 John 3.

As for 1 John 3:6 & 1 John 3:9: Well, if a believer slips up into a sin, that does not mean that they were never born again. The "whosever" in 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 is in reference to comparing a true born again believer with those false teachers that believed that they could sin and still be saved. For these false teachers like modern day OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) teachers taught that they could have fellowship with the Lord and also walk in the darkness (1 John 1:7) because they are exempt from the penalty of sin while under his grace (1 John 1:8) (1 John 1:10).

That is not what the scriptures say. Is "whosoever" in verse 6 or verse 9? I don't see that word there. Context of 1 John is "fellowship" - 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. . . .6 If we claim to have "fellowship" with him and yet walk in darkness [walk in sin, i.e. NO ONE WHO CONTINUES TO SIN HAS EITHER SEEN HIM OR KNOWN HIM.], we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have "fellowship" with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. . . . 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. . . . If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Do you think it surprises God that we still have the tendency to sin?

Now, 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 teach that a person who is truly born of God does not remain in an ongoing state of sin (i.e. habitual sin). This sin is in reference to sins that lead unto spiritual death (i.e. Hell) and not sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16, 17). If a believer sins, they have an advocate named Jesus Christ that they can go to (1 John 2:1) so that they can confess that sin and cleanse themselves of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). If a believer constantly abides in unrepentant sin, they are proving that they are not loving God and thereby showing that they love darkness rather than the Lord.

I believe I said all of the above. What sins lead to spiritual death for a believer? What sins take away the Holy Spirit that was born within you?

John 3:19
"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

I say this all in love and in the hope that Christians should not trivialize or minimize sin as if they do need to stop from sinning or to confess it. Sin is no joke. Sin is what put Jesus Christ on the cross and we should never act as if sin is no big deal. Sin hurts God and we should repent and get our hearts right with God if we do sin. For Jesus told the woman that was forgiven to sin no more. Peter had to say three times to the Lord that he loved him for denying him three times. Ananias and Sapphira were instantly killed by the Spirit for lying to God and a great fear had fell upon the rest of the church because of it.

Most born again believers do not love darkness rather than light . . . To be honest since becoming born again - I have lied at times, I have gotten angry sometimes a lot more than I like, I have not always loved people, I sometimes have trouble with patience, etc. . . . Do I want to do better? Of course. Does God know that when he looks upon my heart? Of course. Do I sin in the flesh or in the Spirit? Does God remove his Holy Spirit from me when I am out of "fellowship"? Does he look upon me and see his daughter whether in fellowship or out of fellowship? Who gives me the courage to not give up when I repeatedly fall? I don't believe that I have trivialized sin at all. I know that it grieves God - It grieves me when my children do wrong.

Important Note:

Oh, and the church was made up of Spirit filled believers, so why would they be feeling fear over their deaths? It's because they went to Hell and not Heaven. Remember, death is a good thing for that servant of Christ who is a faithful believer.

Usually Spirit filled believers fear death because they feel they haven't been "good" enough for God.

Hebrews 2:10-15

In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters. . . . since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death--that is the devil--and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I believe in what I posted concerning 1 John 3.

That is not what the scriptures say. Is "whosoever" in verse 6 or verse 9? I don't see that word there. Context of 1 John is "fellowship" - 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. . . .6 If we claim to have "fellowship" with him and yet walk in darkness [walk in sin, i.e. NO ONE WHO CONTINUES TO SIN HAS EITHER SEEN HIM OR KNOWN HIM.], we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have "fellowship" with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. . . . 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. . . . If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Do you think it surprises God that we still have the tendency to sin?

I believe I said all of the above. What sins lead to spiritual death for a believer? What sins take away the Holy Spirit that was born within you?

Most born again believers do not love darkness rather than light . . . To be honest since becoming born again - I have lied at times, I have gotten angry sometimes a lot more than I like, I have not always loved people, I sometimes have trouble with patience, etc. . . . Do I want to do better? Of course. Does God know that when he looks upon my heart? Of course. Do I sin in the flesh or in the Spirit? Does God remove his Holy Spirit from me when I am out of "fellowship"? Does he look upon me and see his daughter whether in fellowship or out of fellowship? Who gives me the courage to not give up when I repeatedly fall? I don't believe that I have trivialized sin at all. I know that it grieves God - It grieves me when my children do wrong.

Usually Spirit filled believers fear death because they feel they haven't been "good" enough for God.

Hebrews 2:10-15

In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters. . . . since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death--that is the devil--and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

Here is what I would ask you on the part I highlighted, and that is did you confess those sins when you committed them ?

That is the difference between a born again believer, and a person who is continuously still lost.
As people seem to always want to remove the confession part that John mentions, before remission is received.

 

[ChristIsGod]

Haven't read this thread - but they MAY Be a Prodigal son or daughter - so it's hard to say.

Only He would know who are His prodigals.

 

[BradC]

Here is what I would ask you on the part I highlighted, and that is did you confess those sins when you committed them ?

That is the difference between a born again believer, and a person who is continuously still lost.
As people seem to always want to remove the confession part that John mentions, before remission is received.

Confessing sin or faults to God is not always naming our sin, confessing is also an acknowledgment, on the spot, of something we said, did with action or thoughts we had because of the Holy Spirit's instant conviction so that we could maintain our fellowship and simply put off those things that were not right. This is how sensative we can be in our walk with God through the Spirit. As children who are growing there are even things that we might do that are never corrected because is was part of our growing process. Later when we are mature we look back on those things and see how God covered us and allowed us to grow up even without correction. It takes maturity to grow up in Christ and see the wisdom in dealing with children in this manner. Some of you will be very angry with this and say God would never do such a thing.

 

[BradC]

By what you said here, this makes me believe you might be OSAS Light or Mid Range OSAS. OSAS Light Proponents believe that you cannot live a lifestyle of sin or you were never saved to begin with. Mid Range OSAS Proponents believe you camnot live in habitually in sin, too; However, they believe that dying in one unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as murder, theft, lust, lying, etc.) will not necessarily send someone into the Lake of Fire. Which position best describes your beliefs?

As for 1 John 3:6 & 1 John 3:9: Well, if a believer slips up into a sin, that does not mean that they were never born again. The "whosever" in 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 is in reference to comparing a true born again believer with those false teachers that believed that they could sin and still be saved. For these false teachers like modern day OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) teachers taught that they could have fellowship with the Lord and also walk in the darkness (1 John 1:7) because they are exempt from the penalty of sin while under his grace (1 John 1:8) (1 John 1:10).

Now, 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 teach that a person who is truly born of God does not remain in an ongoing state of sin (i.e. habitual sin). This sin is in reference to sins that lead unto spiritual death (i.e. Hell) and not sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16, 17). If a believer sins, they have an advocate named Jesus Christ that they can go to (1 John 2:1) so that they can confess that sin and cleanse themselves of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). If a believer constantly abides in unrepentant sin, they are proving that they are not loving God and thereby showing that they love darkness rather than the Lord.

John 3:19

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

I say this all in love and in the hope that Christians should not trivialize or minimize sin as if they do need to stop from sinning or to confess it. Sin is no joke. Sin is what put Jesus Christ on the cross and we should never act as if sin is no big deal. Sin hurts God and we should repent and get our hearts right with God if we do sin. For Jesus told the woman that was forgiven to sin no more. Peter had to say three times to the Lord that he loved him for denying him three times. Ananias and Sapphira were instantly killed by the Spirit for lying to God and a great fear had fell upon the rest of the church because of it.

Important Note:

Oh, and the church was made up of Spirit filled believers, so why would they be feeling fear over their deaths? It's because they went to Hell and not Heaven. Remember, death is a good thing for that servant of Christ who is a faithful believer.

You need to take yourself off the judgment seat concerning the salvation of others and put on a humble and contrite heart less you be despised by one who is greater than all of us and is the author of salvation.

 

[BradC]

What is interesting is that folks who believe they can have broken fellowship with God and still have salvation have not ever been able to provide any verses that specifically state this. At least not in the history of me bringing up this topic. Also, I am not expecting many folks to look at the verses I provided, much less try and explain them using the context or it's surrounding text. Why? Well, it's obvious that people do not want to see what the Scriptures plainly say on this issue. Why don't they want to see it? It always comes back to the Condemnation (John 3:19-21); Either in regards to themselves or in regards to others.But narrow is the way that leads towards life and few be there that find it.

You would not recognize them or give them any merit even if they were put right in front of you. You would find some other way to apply them to something else. Example: Mt 26:41...

41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

 

[BradC]

The sinner has only one condition to salvation and to the cross and that is faith, an exercise of utterly trusting in the completed work of the cross for the cleansing and remission of all his sins. That condition of faith is also applied to the promises of God as the believer learns to walk in the light.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Here is what I would ask you on the part I highlighted, and that is did you confess those sins when you committed them ?

That is the difference between a born again believer, and a person who is continuously still lost.
As people seem to always want to remove the confession part that John mentions, before remission is received.

I ask God to forgive me of any sin that should stand in the way of my fellowship with him - I don't want to miss one because according to people on here He will take away my birth right as his daughter. He will take away his promise of eternal life through faith in His Son. Woe unto any believer that omits a sin he has committed - I hope everyone stays on top of it . . . .

You see I believe that when God says I am born of incorruptible seed and that His seed remains in me - I don't believe that He un-births that which He has begotten in me . . .

 

[BradC]

They do not see the new birth the same way we do through not only the word but also through the Spirit. It is so important that we have the Spirit involved with our understanding of the truth. He needs to the one through preaching and teaching and in our study of the word.

 

[Angela53510]

First, instead of throwing around baseless accussations around, let's try to understand where we are both coming from.

Personally, I believe in the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation" that teaches that a true believer who is saved will naturally bring forth a life full of holiness and fruitful works. Now, do not misunderstand me, works are not done to be saved, but they are merely the evidence that you have been saved when one repents and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. If a believer sins, they need to immediately confess that sin and forsake it and continue to walk uprightly with their Lord. If a believer continues to abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto death (lying cheating murder etc.) then they are not saved. For what exactly do you think you are being cleansed of if you do confess of your sin?

Anyways, seeing I hold to the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation", I am naturally against all forms of OSAS. However, that said, I believe that only those who hold to "Conditional Salvation" and "OSAS Lite" are true Christians (or my brothers). I believe all other forms of OSAS are teachings from the pits of Hell. For it promotes that abiding in sin and being out fellowship with God and is acceptable to the Lord. In any event, there are three major types of OSAS.

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).

Second, you have to understand that if a person practices evil as a way of life, they are not of God. It's Morality 101. Good guys do good and bad guys do evil. You really do not need a Bible to tell you that. But if you do, Jesus said, you will know false prophets (i.e. false believers) by their fruit. Peter also identified false believers as those who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14). In the book of Jude, there are those who have turned the grace of our God into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4 NIV). Paul says, be not deceived the unrighteous will not inhert the Kingdom of God. Having a belief on Jesus while one does both good and evil is not what God calls His people to do. Jesus said, I would rather you be cold or hot. Jesus does not want us to be Lukewarm. How do we become hot? Not by our own power. But by the Lord's power. Thru the regeneration and washing of the Holy Ghost. For we are saved not by works but by His grace we are saved. We are saved by being transformed spiritually by the Spirit when we surrender our life to Him.

As for 2 CorintMorehians 5: You cannot focus a laser beam on passages of the Bible you prefer while ignoring others. When you read 2 Corinthians 5, you must also read 2 Corinthians 7 that talks about how Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation. In fact, at the end of the chapter it talks about how it talks about the brethren's obedience and relates it to when they had fear and trembling when they received the Lord. In addition, Paul says in 2 Corinthians 13 says know ye not your own selves and prove that Christ be in you unless ye be reprobates. Doesn't sound like OSAS is in that verse to me. There is no I can do whatever sin and still be saved in that line of thinking withiin that passage. Paul says, no not your ownselves and prove that Christ be in you unless your reprobate. What is a reprobate. How would you define a reprobate believer in context of 2 Corinthians 13?

As for Romans 8:28: Well, read what the actual verse says. Those that LOVE God is the condition. One does not love God if they are sinning and or hating God. It's an oxymoron to say you love God and yet hate him by sinning against Him and or having broken fellowship with Him. Furthermore, if you were to look at Romans 8:1, it says those who are in Christ Jesus whoo WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH but who WALK after the Spirit are not under the "Condemnation." What is the "Condematiion" according to the Bible? The "Condemnation" is that Light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than the the Light because their deeds were evil. For everyone that does evil hates the Light, neither comes to the Light, unless his deeds should be reproved (See John 3:19-21).

Blah, blah, blah, blah!

More man made religion. More wrongly dividing the scriptures!

Very concerned about your false gospel, tiny God, and giant man in your soteriology. Praying you come to understand salvation comes from God, not man!

 

[Jackson123]

I think, we have to make a clear.

What is one save always save believe:

A. after the status of being the son, we can do what ever we want, killing, raping, stealing everyday and still go to heaven, but the relationship with God will effected

or

B. After the status of being the son, The Lord will cause us to repent when we kill or rape. Example, when David Kill Uriah, God send Nathan and cause him repent.

 

[newbirth]

I ask God to forgive me of any sin that should stand in the way of my fellowship with him - I don't want to miss one because according to people on here He will take away my birth right as his daughter. He will take away his promise of eternal life through faith in His Son. Woe unto any believer that omits a sin he has committed - I hope everyone stays on top of it . . . .

how many sins did this man omit???
Luke 18:13
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

You see I believe that when God says I am born of incorruptible seed and that His seed remains in me - I don't believe that He un-births that which He has begotten in me . . .

His seed ...you have to follow his seed....the word...that is the incorruptible seed....there is nothing like unbirth...you must be reborn by the word of God...when one sins they are rejecting the word/seed of God .....sin and the Spirit of God cannot abide in the same house/body...the one you obey is your master...God does not share his temple with sin...when your temple is rid of sin then will God dwell in it...

 

[Jason0047]

Blah, blah, blah, blah!

More man made religion. More wrongly dividing the scriptures!

Very concerned about your false gospel, tiny God, and giant man in your soteriology. Praying you come to understand salvation comes from God, not man!

What is errie is that your behavior towards me is of the same spirit of others on another forum on this matter. You attack me and talk to me with disrespect instead of dealing with the actual verses I presented. In fact, many on that other forum even love to quote the words "rightly divide" from 2 Timothy 2:15 as if it is was the key to understanding on this topic. As if that explains everything. But what exactly are you really defending? To me it looks like you are defending a sin and still be saved doctrine on some level. If that is not the case, then please tell me you do not believe you can abide in unrepentant sin with the thinking you can be saved. Please tell me that if a believer dies without refusing to repent of a sin, then they are not saved. However, if you are in denial of this, then I am led to the conclusion that you are indeed defending a license of immorality as spoken about in Jude 1:4 NIV.

 

[Jason0047]

I believe in what I posted concerning 1 John 3.

That is not what the scriptures say. Is "whosoever" in verse 6 or verse 9? I don't see that word there. Context of 1 John is "fellowship" - 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. . . .6 If we claim to have "fellowship" with him and yet walk in darkness [walk in sin, i.e. NO ONE WHO CONTINUES TO SIN HAS EITHER SEEN HIM OR KNOWN HIM.], we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have "fellowship" with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. . . . 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. . . . If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Do you think it surprises God that we still have the tendency to sin?

I believe I said all of the above. What sins lead to spiritual death for a believer? What sins take away the Holy Spirit that was born within you?

Most born again believers do not love darkness rather than light . . . To be honest since becoming born again - I have lied at times, I have gotten angry sometimes a lot more than I like, I have not always loved people, I sometimes have trouble with patience, etc. . . . Do I want to do better? Of course. Does God know that when he looks upon my heart? Of course. Do I sin in the flesh or in the Spirit? Does God remove his Holy Spirit from me when I am out of "fellowship"? Does he look upon me and see his daughter whether in fellowship or out of fellowship? Who gives me the courage to not give up when I repeatedly fall? I don't believe that I have trivialized sin at all. I know that it grieves God - It grieves me when my children do wrong.

Usually Spirit filled believers fear death because they feel they haven't been "good" enough for God.

Hebrews 2:10-15

In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters. . . . since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death--that is the devil--and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

If you believe you can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved, then that means you can sin and still be saved. But 1 John 5:12 says, He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Also, thinking you can sin and still be saved (or be out of fellowship with God) regulates 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 as useless background noise to you. You can't use these verses to defend your doctrine because they teach the exact opposite of the concept of a sin and still be saved type belief. Oh, and read the verses in the KJV. They mention the word "whosoever" within both verses. Also, you must take note that there are no chapter breaks in the original text. 1 John chapter 3 is connected to 1 John chapter 1. OSAS proponents say they are crucified with Christ and that there sin is buried. OSAS proponents say all future sin in their life is forgiven. So they are forever saved no matter if they sin and refuse to repent of it or not. This is essentially saying you have no sin because of a belief on Jesus Christ. Right? But 1 John 1:8 says if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:6 says if we say we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:9 says, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. All unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17).

 

[Jason0047]

In other words, people are not being upfront with me. I want folks here to tell it to me straight. Can you sin and still be saved? Well, if you believe you can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved, then that means you are condoning a sin and still be saved type doctrine. For sin obviously breaks a person's fellowship with God.

And if one has no fellowship, then they do not have life. Meaning, no God = No salvation.

1 John 5:12 and John 17:3 make this fact very clear for those who want to hear.

 

[Jason0047]

You need to take yourself off the judgment seat concerning the salvation of others and put on a humble and contrite heart less you be despised by one who is greater than all of us and is the author of salvation.

Uh, it's not wrong pointing out evil behavior. It's not wrong to say Hitler is evil; Or that the criminal who raped a bunch of women down the street is a bad guy. It not wrong to speak out against evil behavior in a self professing believer as if God would reward them for their evil by letting them into Heaven.

Believing that one can do evil and be rewarded for it is wrong. It is at the very heart pure evil and you know it. Jude 1:4 NIV says there are those who have turned the gospel into a license for immorality.

 

[Jason0047]

Haven't read this thread - but they MAY Be a Prodigal son or daughter - so it's hard to say.

Only He would know who are His prodigals.

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, when the son returned home, his father said he was once dead and is alive again twice within the text. This is speaking in spiritual terms. The Prodigal Son was dead spiritually to the father when he was considered him lost and gone. But when the son returned, he said he was alive again.