Catholicism vs Protestantism

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Benadam

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Aug 14, 2019
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Jesus not talk to Elijah, Jesus talk to His Father, ask why The Father forsaken Him.

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Jackson do you agree that the two Jewish leaders thought Jesus was asking for Elijah's help.
And they were mistaken! Jesus was crying out to God only, as explained in the text quoted from Matthew's gospel.
You haven't refuted my statement. You give me your opinion.
 

Benadam

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Aug 14, 2019
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And they were mistaken! Jesus was crying out to God only, as explained in the text quoted from Matthew's gospel.
Just because a person believes something that "religious" leaders have presented does not make it God's truth. Jesus spoke of the lack of understanding of the religious leaders many times. Sadly, this has continued throughout history, and disrupted the purposes of God.

Matt 22:29
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."

The following commentary mentions why people could have been led to believe something that the bible does not support. Notice "rabbis felt." Feeling something is true without concrete evidence, supported by 2-3 witnesses from the word causes one to err in their understanding and believe a lie. (Prov. 30:5-6)

Matthew 27:45
27:47. Because Elijah was thought never to have died, some *rabbis felt that he was sent on errands like the angels, often to deliver pious rabbis from trouble.
(from IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament by Craig S. Keener Copyright © 1993 by Craig S. Keener. Published by InterVarsity Press. All rights reserved.)


Matt 15:8-9
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Wansvic, Jaybo, my post remains unanswered.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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what is the test of time?
is it something spoken of in the scriptures?


48. He who rejects me, and doesn`t receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
(John, 12)

is Jesus referring there to the entire Bible?
or to the words he spoke during his ministry here on Earth?

do you believe that Jesus is identical with the father, such that when Jesus says, "my words" it would refer to words that the father spoke as well?
(similar question below)


hmmm...
how does that work regarding people living on the American continent prior to Europeans coming over around 1500 ad?


I'm glad you're still interested in talking about water baptism.

thinking over past stuff on this thread, I believe you have talked about Jesus saying to baptize in a single name in Matthew 28.

matching that up with other things you've talked about regarding baptism,
do you believe Jesus is the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy Spirit?
The test of time comment was referring to the fact that the bible is still being published even until today. It's contents confirmed as authentic through historical discoveries; such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc. This confirms the fact that word has not passed away as Jesus stated in Mark 13:21.

"In terms of survival and comparing the Bible with other ancient writings, the Bible has more manuscripts to support it than any other ten pieces of classical literature. The New Testament has the most number of ancient manuscripts than any literature.
Enemies of the Bible have tried to destroy it through the years and the Bible remains. Jesus said, "heaven and earth will pass away, but My word will by no means pass away" (Mark 13:21). People are always trying to refute the Bible. Every time this happens it is proven that the Bible is true. It is the only book with a 100 percent accurate prophecy rate. No prophecy has ever gone unfilled. Those remaining will be fulfilled." Excerpt by Pastor Wahn, Gold Country Media

I don't know how Jesus' statement pertains to Europeans. However, I believe the inspired word of God, therefore I am confident that Jesus statement means exactly what it says. (John 12:48)

I brought up water baptism because it is a component of the spiritual rebirth that the forerunners of the Catholic Church through their tradition have made of none effect. A person who has not been obedient and taken on the name of Jesus in water baptism has not been buried into His death (Rom 6:4, Col 2:9-14) for the remission of their sins. (Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38) If a person neglects to be reborn spiritually nothing else matters. Without the experience of being reborn spiritually a person has no hope of entering the kingdom of God. (John 3:3-5)

And yes, the bible clearly depicts what name Jesus was referring to in accordance with water baptism. Since the bible states that in Jesus dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is Jesus.

People can scream, holler, and/or throw a fit but the truth of using Jesus' name is stated over and over in the word. There is salvation in none other name. (Acts 4:12) This truth is seen in the scripture referencing that whatsoever is done in word and deed should be done in Jesus' name. (Col 3:17)

What is the difference between someone engaged and a bride? A Name Change.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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The test of time comment was referring to the fact that the bible is still being published even until today. It's contents confirmed as authentic through historical discoveries; such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc. This confirms the fact that word has not passed away as Jesus stated in Mark 13:21.



"In terms of survival and comparing the Bible with other ancient writings, the Bible has more manuscripts to support it than any other ten pieces of classical literature. The New Testament has the most number of ancient manuscripts than any literature.

Enemies of the Bible have tried to destroy it through the years and the Bible remains. Jesus said, "heaven and earth will pass away, but My word will by no means pass away" (Mark 13:21). People are always trying to refute the Bible. Every time this happens it is proven that the Bible is true. It is the only book with a 100 percent accurate prophecy rate. No prophecy has ever gone unfilled. Those remaining will be fulfilled." Excerpt by Pastor Wahn, Gold Country Media
it sounds to me like a very loose interpretation to say that Mark 13:21 means that the book with the most copies must therefore be the word of God.

about historical accuracy,
The book of Daniel says that Nebuchadnezzar ruled over everyone on Earth at that time.
a loose interpretation comes in handy,
he ruled over most parts of the then known world.

I don't know how Jesus' statement pertains to Europeans.
if we say that every single person ever alive will be judged by the entire contents of the 66 book Bible,
then how does that apply to the people who lived in North America before Christianity came?

However, I believe the inspired word of God, therefore I am confident that Jesus statement means exactly what it says. (John 12:48)
again, I think that would be using a loose interpretation such that "my word" becomes the entire Bible.

I brought up water baptism because it is a component of the spiritual rebirth that the forerunners of the Catholic Church through their tradition have made of none effect. A person who has not been obedient and taken on the name of Jesus in water baptism has not been buried into His death (Rom 6:4, Col 2:9-14) for the remission of their sins. (Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38) If a person neglects to be reborn spiritually nothing else matters. Without the experience of being reborn spiritually a person has no hope of entering the kingdom of God. (John 3:3-5)



And yes, the bible clearly depicts what name Jesus was referring to in accordance with water baptism. Since the bible states that in Jesus dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is Jesus.



People can scream, holler, and/or throw a fit but the truth of using Jesus' name is stated over and over in the word. There is salvation in none other name. (Acts 4:12) This truth is seen in the scripture referencing that whatsoever is done in word and deed should be done in Jesus' name. (Col 3:17)



What is the difference between someone engaged and a bride? A Name Change.
so, when we (or the scriptures) say the name Jesus,
it refers equally to the father, the Son, and the spirit all at the same time, in your view?
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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Wansvic, Jaybo, my post remains unanswered.
Sorry, I thought my post addressed your comment.

As you stated, those who thought Jesus was calling out to Elijah must have believed this due to people praying or asking deceased persons for help during that time. I understood what you were saying. However, as I said, just because a concept such as praying to the dead is accepted by society does not mean it is acceptable as far as God is concerned. I shared a commentary that spoke of things rabbi's thought were true about Elijah.

Thinking something is true is not evidence of truth. One can only ascertain the truth about Godly principles by searching the scriptures and seeing what they actually say about what is and is not acceptable to God.

No where in scripture does it state that God condones praying to the dead.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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it sounds to me like a very loose interpretation to say that Mark 13:21 means that the book with the most copies must therefore be the word of God.

about historical accuracy,
The book of Daniel says that Nebuchadnezzar ruled over everyone on Earth at that time.
a loose interpretation comes in handy,
he ruled over most parts of the then known world.


if we say that every single person ever alive will be judged by the entire contents of the 66 book Bible,
then how does that apply to the people who lived in North America before Christianity came?


again, I think that would be using a loose interpretation such that "my word" becomes the entire Bible.


so, when we (or the scriptures) say the name Jesus,
it refers equally to the father, the Son, and the spirit all at the same time, in your view?
My comments included far more than those you reference.

However, since you seem to imply that the Bible is unreliable. Please provide your thoughts concerning what people will be judged by?
 

jaybo

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Jun 5, 2020
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... do you agree that the two Jewish leaders thought Jesus was asking for Elijah's help.

[jaybo] You haven't refuted my statement. You give me your opinion.
I haven't given you my opinion, I have quoted from the Word of God. There is a world of difference.

Matthew 27:46, "About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”). (He was quoting Psalm 22:1 verbatim)

It's irrelevant what the people heard. All that means is that they didn't know the psalm.
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Jackson do you agree that the two Jewish leaders thought Jesus was asking for Elijah's help.
I am not sure, how do you come with 2. It say some, and how do you know they are Jews leader?
47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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My comments included far more than those you reference.
that's true!
I responded to the ones that I thought would make for the most interesting discussion.

was there a question you asked that I didn't answer?

However, since you seem to imply that the Bible is unreliable. Please provide your thoughts concerning what people will be judged by?
I wouldn't say so much unreliable as
open to interpretation.

which to me is one of the key differences between Catholics and Protestants:
Protestants tend to see the Bible as interpreted by the individual,
Catholics tend to see the Bible as interpreted by the church.

it looks to me like the Bible speaks of judgment in many ways.
there's this
32. Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
(Matthew, 25)

and this
6. who `will pay back to everyone according to their works:`
7. to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life;
(Romans, 2)

and
15. in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Good News, by Jesus Christ.
(Romans, 2)

I'm content with the idea that God is just,
and that he will establish justice.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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The born of Jesus is in the Bible
That's true!
However, the celebration of his birth on December 25th is not in the Bible.

I'm not completely sure, but it seems to me that other than feasts listed in the law,
no days are celebrated in the New testament except for the first day of the week.
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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That's true!
However, the celebration of his birth on December 25th is not in the Bible.

I'm not completely sure, but it seems to me that other than feasts listed in the law,
no days are celebrated in the New testament except for the first day of the week.
I heard, Christmas and Easter was pagan celeberation, catholic Rome adopt it from pagan, than Protestant Carry on. My opinion, God see the heart, to me, it is ok as long as we do it in remembrance of how God love us, born and die to us.

It is different from pray to death saint. Another spirit may come pretend to be saint and deceive us.

The same pagan tradition but different effect.
 

Benadam

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Aug 14, 2019
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I am not sure, how do you come with 2. It say some, and how do you know they are Jews leader?
47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
good point. Somehow I see mostly citizens of Jerusalem watching the Crucifxion. But i'm sure there were Romans and Greeks and many others too. Thanks for mentioning that,
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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good point. Somehow I see mostly citizens of Jerusalem watching the Crucifxion. But i'm sure there were Romans and Greeks and many others too. Thanks for mentioning that,
You are welcome, my brother
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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He isn't God of the dead. You believe the Body of Christ is dead
I will reword my response you commented about so there is no misunderstanding as to what I mean:

As you stated, those who thought Jesus was calling out to Elijah must have believed this due to people praying or asking deceased persons (THOSE WHO CEASE TO EXIST HERE ON EARTH) for help during that time. I understood what you were saying. However, as I said, just because a concept such as praying to the dead (THOSE WHO CEASE TO EXIST HERE ON EARTH) is accepted by society does not mean it is acceptable as far as God is concerned. I shared a commentary that spoke of things rabbi's THOUGHT/FELT were true about Elijah.

Thinking something is true is not evidence of truth. One can only ascertain the truth about Godly principles by searching the scriptures and seeing what they actually say about what is and is not acceptable to God.

NOTE: The word specifically states that there is only one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus. (1 Tim 2:5) And, Jesus said we are to pray to the Father in His name. (John 15:16, 16:23)

I am not aware of scripture that states/implies it is proper to pray to anyone else. If you know of any please provide them. Thanks.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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I heard, Christmas and Easter was pagan celeberation, catholic Rome adopt it from pagan, than Protestant Carry on. My opinion, God see the heart, to me, it is ok as long as we do it in remembrance of how God love us, born and die to us.

It is different from pray to death saint. Another spirit may come pretend to be saint and deceive us.

The same pagan tradition but different effect.
yes, I think this is kind of the idea of
pagan traditions are okay as long as they have been "Christianized".

myself, I wouldn't worry about deception coming from asking members of the body of Christ no longer on this Earth to pray with you.

I think the reception comes in when we move away from loving other people

God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.
(1 John, 4)

(for me, when it comes to prayer,
I just like to say the Lord's prayer.
so people all over the world are already praying with me, and possibly those in heaven as well!)
 

Dan_473

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He isn't God of the dead. You believe the Body of Christ is dead
myself, I like the idea of believers no longer on this Earth being part of the body of Christ!

I also like the idea of believers on Earth being called the church militant
and those in heaven
the church triumphant.

I used to attend a Presbyterian Church where when someone passed from this Earth, the pastor would say, "Sister Jones joined the church triumphant last night, surrounded by her family..."

3 Though with a scornful wonder
men see her sore oppressed,
by schisms rent asunder,
by heresies distressed,
yet saints their watch are keeping,
their cry goes up, "How long?"
And soon the night of weeping
shall be the morn of song.

4 The church shall never perish!
Her dear Lord to defend,
to guide, sustain, and cherish,
is with her to the end;
though there be those that hate her,
and false sons in her pale,
against both foe and traitor
she ever shall prevail.

5 'Mid toil and tribulation,
and tumult of her war,
she waits the consummation
of peace forevermore;
till with the vision glorious
her longing eyes are blest,
and the great church victorious
shall be the church at rest.

https://hymnary.org/text/the_churchs_one_foundation
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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I wouldn't say so much unreliable as
open to interpretation.

which to me is one of the key differences between Catholics and Protestants:
Protestants tend to see the Bible as interpreted by the individual,
Catholics tend to see the Bible as interpreted by the church.
The truth is that the bible is not open for interpretation. This idea is what has resulted in so many denominations. (this particular word always brings to mind demon nations) What separates one from another is what each group has decided they will accept from the word. If people would just accept and obey what is written concerning the rebirth experience in Acts 2:38, unity would burst forth because spiritual eyes would be opened. Consider the words recorded in John 3:3, Except a man be born again (come out of water) he cannot SEE (recognize) the Kingdom of God. The scripture goes on to say one must be born of both water and Spirit in order to ENTER (be given entrance) into the Kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21

32. Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
(Matthew, 25)

and this
6. who `will pay back to everyone according to their works:`
7. to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life;
(Romans, 2)

and
15. in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Good News, by Jesus Christ.
(Romans, 2)

I'm content with the idea that God is just,
and that he will establish justice.
Without a gauge or set of rules in place a person's actions have nothing to be compared against for judgment purposes. If not the bible, what?

Your #32 - During the separation process what will be used to make the distinction between the sheep and the goats? See John 10, Sheep know the shepherds voice (word) and another they will not follow.

As to the other verses you mention, What will be the determining factor between what actions of a person were good or bad? What will these actions be compared to? If not the bible, then what?
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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The truth is that the bible is not open for interpretation. This idea is what has resulted in so many denominations. (this particular word always brings to mind demon nations) What separates one from another is what each group has decided they will accept from the word. If people would just accept and obey what is written concerning the rebirth experience in Acts 2:38, unity would burst forth because spiritual eyes would be opened. Consider the words recorded in John 3:3, Except a man be born again (come out of water) he cannot SEE (recognize) the Kingdom of God. The scripture goes on to say one must be born of both water and Spirit in order to ENTER (be given entrance) into the Kingdom of God. (John 3:5)



"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21
earlier on this thread I was talking with someone about "slaves obey your masters".
their position was that it actually meant respect those in authority.
(as I remember, that was yourself, but I could be wrong.)
anyways, that would be an example of interpretation, imo.

this example might be easier to talk about
36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it. And also take a bag. If you don’t have a sword, sell your coat and buy one.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+22&version=NIRV

the Bible says if you don't have a sword,
go buy one.

Without a gauge or set of rules in place a person's actions have nothing to be compared against for judgment purposes. If not the bible, what?
I would assume the law of God written on human hearts
15. They show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them.
(Romans, 2)

ever since Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil,
all humans capable of making a moral decision have known the difference between Good and evil, imo.

Your #32 - During the separation process what will be used to make the distinction between the sheep and the goats?
as I read it, Jesus tells us the standard that will be used
35. for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in.
40. `The King will answer them, `Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.`
(Matthew, 25)

See John 10, Sheep know the shepherds voice (word) and another they will not follow.
yes, I think that dovetails nicely with the Matthew passage.

the ones who hear Jesus' voice in John 10 are the ones who will do things like feed the hungry and take in the stranger.

As to the other verses you mention, What will be the determining factor between what actions of a person were good or bad? What will these actions be compared to? If not the bible, then what?
I think the idea of to whom much is given much is required would come into play.

certainly, if a person has received God's revelation through the scriptures, that would definitely be taken into account, imo.


17 Suppose you call yourself a Jew. You trust in the law. You brag that you know God. 18 You know what God wants. You agree with what is best because the law teaches you.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+2&version=NIRV

so, for example, a Jew who has been taught by the law will be judged by the things they know from the law.