Catholicism vs Protestantism

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Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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And what is Catholic mean by no salvation apart catholic?
I think what they say is that there is no salvation apart from the church, which is the body of Christ.


I think they mean that the body of Christ is involved whenever a person is saved. How that works with people who have never heard the name of Jesus is a mystery.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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This is a quote from one of vatican publication

Quote

1. A brief history of the impact of "Nostra aetate" (No.4) over the last 50 years

1. "Nostra aetate" (No.4) is rightly counted among those documents of the Second Vatican Council which have been able to effect, in a particularly striking manner, a new direction of the Catholic Church since then. This shift in the relations of the Church with the Jewish people and Judaism becomes apparent only when we recall that there were previously great reservations on both sides, in part because the

history of Christianity has been seen to be discriminatory against Jews, even including attempts at forced conversion (cf. "Evangelii gaudium", 248).


The background of this complex connection consists inter alia in an asymmetrical relationship: as a minority the Jews were often confronted by and dependent upon a Christian majority. The dark and terrible shadow of the Shoah over Europe during the Nazi period led the Church to reflect anew on her bond with the Jewish people.

End quote.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...i_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html

So vatican admit about discrimination and force conversion in the past, I am not make the story up
Yes there was discrimination and forced conversions in the past. I agree that those things happened.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Than read this

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...i_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html


Quote

because the history of Christianity has been seen to be discriminatory against Jews, even including attempts at forced conversion (cf. "Evangelii

End quote

And some years ago I talk to ex catholic from Poland, she said when she young, she went to Catholic Church, and she heard story that Jews kill Jesus, Jews kill Christian etc, the story to stimulus hatred against Jews.
All very sad and very true! Have you ever heard the term
Christ-killer?
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
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A great topic. I wish I didn't have to keep things this short, but the why of things will have to be held off for later.


Where do they differ and why?
Mainly on the question of justification and authority. They differ because of sin and Satanic deception.

Do both lead to salvation? Why or why not?
No. Our religions teach very different things on the topic of salvation. While each can enjoy each other's company, appreciate the other's historical contributions, and revel in mutual opposition to the worst elements of Western culture, the difference is an extremely wide gulf.

How should we treat each other?
In essentials, unity.
In non-essentials, liberty.
In all things, charity.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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It doesn't say in the Bible, if so I believe Luke wrote it
Luke can't include every detail
Acts 28: 30 Paul stayed two whole years in his own rented house, and received all who were coming to him.

Who came to see him? Was the soldier there at the same time, or did the soldier wait outside by the door? Was the same soldier there 24 hours a day?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I don't know. Maybe Peter had a successor, maybe God has continued to call apostles.


I can accept the possibility that God continued to lead the church through councils of the apostles and elders like the one done in Acts 15. Or not.
Catholic believe Pope is peter successor, but you don't know, so you are one step closer to the thruth my brother, because you not sure catholic main doctrine anymore.

You accept possibility the Church lead by council of apostle?
To me, I believe real Church lead by Holy Spirit.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Luke can't include every detail
Acts 28: 30 Paul stayed two whole years in his own rented house, and received all who were coming to him.

Who came to see him? Was the soldier there at the same time, or did the soldier wait outside by the door? Was the same soldier there 24 hours a day?
So Luke say receive all who come, mean your theory that the authory not allow Christian visit Paul invalid.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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And the formal church may not the body of Christ.

Not because the organization register as a church mean the body of Christ. 2 or 3 people worship together with honest doctrine is the body of Christ

If we reside where we are the only Christian and we worship Jesus, we are member of the body
True!
1 Corinthians 12: 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.

Beyond that, there are different views about authority structures.


Catholics say that there is a single authority structure made up of elders and overseers (priests and bishops), with the Pope being the leader of the overseers.


Eastern Orthodox, I think, also have elders and overseers, but the structure basically ends at the national Church level, with the overseer of Constantinople being the "first among equals".


Some Protestants end the authority structure with the denomination, such as Presbyterian or Methodist. Others limit the structure to the local congregation, still others acknowledge no authority structure, every individual is on their own.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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The questions are then what is the body and how do we know they are the body?
Definitely! I believe the body is composed of all those who believe the good news
1 Corinthians 15: 1 Now I declare to you, brothers, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

If I understand right, the Catholic teaching is in practice not too different. They say that the body of Christ is composed of all those who have had a trinitarian baptism.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I think what they say is that there is no salvation apart from the church, which is the body of Christ.


I think they mean that the body of Christ is involved whenever a person is saved. How that works with people who have never heard the name of Jesus is a mystery.
I believe thno salvation apart from Christ. Because not every church is the body of Christ and as soon as you accept Jesus, you are the body of christ
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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True!
1 Corinthians 12: 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.

Beyond that, there are different views about authority structures.


Catholics say that there is a single authority structure made up of elders and overseers (priests and bishops), with the Pope being the leader of the overseers.


Eastern Orthodox, I think, also have elders and overseers, but the structure basically ends at the national Church level, with the overseer of Constantinople being the "first among equals".


Some Protestants end the authority structure with the denomination, such as Presbyterian or Methodist. Others limit the structure to the local congregation, still others acknowledge no authority structure, every individual is on their own.
Yep, but Protestant not claim their leader is peter successor
 
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Not "all nations", "many nations".
Abraham was visible, and you can see today the Nations that he fathered. A visible father of visible Nations

In addition to that, he is also the father of those who live by faith. And yes, that fatherhood is unseen.
Which nation is he not father of?

Abraham was visible, and you can see today the Nation (singular) family that he fathered. That is if a person could trace the genealogy of a Jew even 10 generations .The genealogy of the seed, the "born again generation of Christ" ended with the Son of man Jesus . the true representative of the unseen seed that works in us said "it is finished" prophesying the will of the father. . .

Matthew 1 King James Version (KJV) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his
brethren;

his brethren; = sons of God of who we are but not revealed what we will be as the bride

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.1 John 3:2


In that way I think we are to concern ourselves with two generations. The generation of Christ, the generation of new creatures and the generation of Adam spoken of the evil generation, men with no faith that could please a God who wrote the letter of His law with his finger (will)

The fulfillment of the generation of Christ was when Jesus said it is finished. It began the period of the last days called a thousands years in Revelation 20 signaling the time of reformation had come.. One like never before or ever again .A terrible tribulation to a outward Jew, a jubilation like never before to the whole world.

Abraham's fleshly seed was not frozen and put into a sperm bank. That DNA died when he took his last breath. Abraham a metaphor used to represent our father in heaven not seen. He in Mathew commands to call no man like Abraham of earth father .Abraham father of all nations to include the Jewish. . . . not Abram the father of one family.

Abraham to represent the unseen holy place of God. It is used in multiple parables to give the unseen father of all nations the unseen credit for passing on the spiritual seed "Christ" the anointing Holy Spirit of God . Not the spiritless corrupted seed Abram.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
 
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Yes we should. If I believed that the grace was given in fullness to our dear sister in the lord Mary exclusively and a unknown remnant to all others. And after death (no life) somehow or other I would suffer somehow for another unknown amount of time .

I would think someone shedding the light of the gospel could give them a hope and the idea of patrons saints as workers with familial spirits would be driven out by the living words of the law found in the Bible (sola scriptura) The bible calls it a abomination

If I believed in the foundation of necromancy worshiping or what they call venerating removing themselves from the idea of worship . Which is simply one of the manners as venerable. Those who lord it over another beliefs. They must seek their approval.

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the "abominations" that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord.

Isaiah 8 builds on that doctrine that exposed necromancy . Rachel hid them image idols (teraphim as household family gods ) Isaiah 8 uses the word "seek" twice. The first necromancy seeking after the dead. And the second seek, seek after God who gives life to those dead in their trespasses and sin as the fullness of Grace . Not a remnant as Catholics must believe.

Isaiah 8:18-20 King James Version (KJV) Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no "light "in them.

I would suggest offering them light of the gospel .Not a remnant the whole.
There's quite a lot here for me to digest, I'm not sure if I get all of it.
If I understand you correctly, you're saying you don't agree with praying to Saints and you believe in the sufficiency of Scripture alone.

I have a Roman Catholic background, but I started attending a non denominational bible based Church where the elders try to model the Church on the early apostolic Church. So it's very different from the RCC, where my priest never encouraged me to study the Bible. He said it was his duty to explain the scriptures to us and if the congregation started to study in private, we would all arrive at different conclusions and it would cause division in the Church.

Most people stick to the denomination they were born into, for the sake of harmony. I had no idea how much opposition I would face from my family, friends, relatives and work colleges. They say I've been brainwashed, but the more I study the Bible the more everything makes sense. Christ did say that He didn't come to bring peace into the world, but He came as a sword to divide families.

The parish priest gave me a book about the mainline denominations, it gives a brief history of each one and explains how they started. It was interesting to see that each denomination was founded by a man, except for the RCC which was supposedly founded or started by Christ Himself.

My family thought that the book would wake me up and make me come back to the mother Church, but they were shocked when I refused. My dad took my NKJV Bible to the priest, and he took it and gave my dad a "Good News Bible" as an authorized replacement. I have since purchased another NKJV and I have no plans of returning to the mother Church.

I believe that there are saved people in every denomination, my reasoning is that God deals with individuals. So we're not saved because we belong to a specific denomination.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
9,883
992
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There's quite a lot here for me to digest, I'm not sure if I get all of it.
If I understand you correctly, you're saying you don't agree with praying to Saints and you believe in the sufficiency of Scripture alone.

I have a Roman Catholic background, but I started attending a non denominational bible based Church where the elders try to model the Church on the early apostolic Church. So it's very different from the RCC, where my priest never encouraged me to study the Bible. He said it was his duty to explain the scriptures to us and if the congregation started to study in private, we would all arrive at different conclusions and it would cause division in the Church.

Most people stick to the denomination they were born into, for the sake of harmony. I had no idea how much opposition I would face from my family, friends, relatives and work colleges. They say I've been brainwashed, but the more I study the Bible the more everything makes sense. Christ did say that He didn't come to bring peace into the world, but He came as a sword to divide families.

The parish priest gave me a book about the mainline denominations, it gives a brief history of each one and explains how they started. It was interesting to see that each denomination was founded by a man, except for the RCC which was supposedly founded or started by Christ Himself.

My family thought that the book would wake me up and make me come back to the mother Church, but they were shocked when I refused. My dad took my NKJV Bible to the priest, and he took it and gave my dad a "Good News Bible" as an authorized replacement. I have since purchased another NKJV and I have no plans of returning to the mother Church.

I believe that there are saved people in every denomination, my reasoning is that God deals with individuals. So we're not saved because we belong to a specific denomination.
Yep I heard Catholic believe Jesus only establish one church and that is rcc, that mean other church is not Christ church, but now they seem to change their mind they start promote one world religion, to make every body accept that concept, they say as long as you believe trinity, that to make Protestant happy, than to make Jews happy, they say Judaism is not other religion, and to make Islam happy they say Islam is include in the plan of salvation and Islam adore or share the same god with catholic

All of this is not honest, they do it to prepare one world religion, to support one world government

The end game is one world government, that antichrist government
 
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I haven't stayed updated for the last few pages so I will say this though. I doubt anyone is 100% correct in how to respond. We have as Protestants the Bible and Holy Spirit as the authority. With that being said there are many scriptures about warning and defending against false teachings, warnings against the legalistic system of religion, and is quite clear salvation comes as grace through faith alone. That salvation comes from faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior

If the RCC hold to salvation comes from Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior but has in my view many unbiblical doctrines. Then in my opinion I believe God is the only one who can sort out the hearts of the RCC crowd.

I'm sure there are Jesus followers or hearts who are truly after Jesus but are lost in the sea of centuries worth of false dogma and traditions.

I believe we pray for them, correct when necessary in a friendly loving manner, always make more of Jesus in the discussion than pope's, father's, priests, etc. But we also examine the fruit. Is God working in the individual even within the jumbled theology?

Unbelievers are treated in a manner where we know they are not believers so they are not held to the same standards as believers. A believer on the other hand Paul tells us to correct, rebuke, and in some extreme cases to kick out the church if unrepentant sin is causing problems. So it is according to how you define the golden rule. Scripture tells us to correct, defend, rebuke, or even weed out the problem. A sick and contagious sheep could infect and destroy the flock. Just as unrepentant sin and false teachings can poison the church as it restricts its credibility in the eyes of unbelievers.

Sometimes a Shepherd has to protect the flock and that doesn't end with treating the wolf how it wants to be treated. The wolf being the influence of Satan just as Jesus sternly told Peter, " Get behind me Satan!" As Peter was trying to stop the will of God. Someone in our church could be a Peter or some could be a Judas. One from ignorance while the other in purposeful intentions. The flock must be protected either way. No one said being a leader would make you popular. In fact most in scripture was martyred.
I find it very difficult to share the Gospel with my family, relatives and friends. Because they're mostly Roman Catholics, who think that I'm trying to be 'holier than thou'.

They remember my life before my conversion, and say things like - you were rebellious towards your parents, you were a drug addict, fornicator, who took advantage of many girls and then dumped them, did crime, violence and many other anti social activities. And now you think you can just put all that behind you and preach to us!

The main problem I find is, everyone has lived a much cleaner life than me. So they say things like, 'I'm happy for you, whatever works for you'. Just keep your new religion to yourself, I don't need it I have my own. They look down their nose at me, so I'm at a disadvantage because my old life.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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If you describe the body of Christ as the catholic church then my answer is absolutely.

A man becomes part of the body of Christ by being born again by grace through faith according to the word of God. This is evidenced by the Holy Spirit witnessing with his spirit that he is a child of God.

No rituals no sacred relics and no traditions are necessary to be saved from sin. Gods grace is given to those who believe and trust Christ to save them from their sins. Christ saves because He is able and will to receive all who come to Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yes, terminology can be difficult. I think Catholics say that everyone with a trinitarian baptism is part of the church. That would include nearly all Protestants. And there is only one Church. And church is synonymous with Body of Christ.


The Catholics would go on to say that the Catholic hierarchy is the visible instrument that God uses to lead the church, the body of Christ.


Your description of the details of salvation is based, I think, on your belief that God reveals his truth to each person individually through his holy spirit as they read the Bible.

You might be interested to know that that is actually my position too, if I have to pick one. However, I have not been able to find that position stated in the Bible.


Are you willing to consider with me the possibility that maybe, just maybe, God reveals his truth to a group?
 
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Yep I heard Catholic believe Jesus only establish one church and that is rcc, that mean other church is not Christ church, but now they seem to change their mind they start promote one world religion, to make every body accept that concept, they say as long as you believe trinity, that to make Protestant happy, than to make Jews happy, they say Judaism is not other religion, and to make Islam happy they say Islam is include in the plan of salvation and Islam adore or share the same god with catholic

All of this is not honest, they do it to prepare one world religion, to support one world government

The end game is one world government, that antichrist government
This current pope seems to be more progressive, than his predecessors. He is trying to unite all the religions, so they can all work together to bring about world peace. I don't know if he has ulterior motives, but I've heard many people say what you've said.

It does look like we will have a one world government soon, but I can't figure out how they will organize it and who will lead it.
 
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Yes, terminology can be difficult. I think Catholics say that everyone with a trinitarian baptism is part of the church. That would include nearly all Protestants. And there is only one Church. And church is synonymous with Body of Christ.


The Catholics would go on to say that the Catholic hierarchy is the visible instrument that God uses to lead the church, the body of Christ.


Your description of the details of salvation is based, I think, on your belief that God reveals his truth to each person individually through his holy spirit as they read the Bible.

You might be interested to know that that is actually my position too, if I have to pick one. However, I have not been able to find that position stated in the Bible.


Are you willing to consider with me the possibility that maybe, just maybe, God reveals his truth to a group?
I believe God did reveal His truth to His chosen people under the old covenant, but I believe He doesn't do that under the new covenant.
I'm not really sure on where the Jews currently stand, my limited understanding tells me that they are still His chosen people but He has blinded them until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.