Catholicism vs Protestantism

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May 4, 2020
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My brother Dan, the problem is on your interpretation and your zeal to defend catholic, make you do what ever you can to make Catholic like not lie

Definition of zeal
: eagerness and ardent interest in pursuit of something : FERVOR
her zeal to succeed strained her relationships


I don't understand you believe Jews have zeal to God but don't worship a God.

That because ccc 841 say Muslim and us adore the same God. And you try to to cover up this lie
That why you say adore God do not mean adore Jesus

You know that Jesus God, am i correct?
How Muslim that don't believe Jesus God adore God?

This lie is the one that you try to cover, to make look like not lie
I agree Muslims cannot have salvation outside of faith in Christ and they don’t worship our God. However the God of the Jews is our God but they cannot be saved without Christ as well.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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The tribulation is not just 7 years. We are in the tribulation.

The tribulation started in the 1st century AD --> and continues --> all the way until Christ's Return:

The pope (Holy Father) already applies his mark by saying, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" and making the sign of the cross +

The middle ages Roman Catholic Church with the Holy Roman Empire already had their Inquisitions where they killed many Jews who would refused to be marked with the sign of the cross +
My brother, I am not very good in reading revelation, but from re 13 I notice 2 significant sign


1 first beast in power only 42 month
Rev 13

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

2. Second beast will force every body take a mark of the beast or not able to buy or sale

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.



And it will happen world wide because both of them have authority to all nation


7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

I don't think it happen yet because we still able to buy food now
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
8,912
803
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I agree Muslims cannot have salvation outside of faith in Christ and they don’t worship our God. However the God of the Jews is our God but they cannot be saved without Christ as well.
Some Jews worship true God, but Jesus say, Jews that don't believe in Him doesn't believe in Moses/Torah, how people that don't believe in Torah worship God?


John 5

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
 
Feb 8, 2019
579
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My brother, I am not very good in reading revelation, but from re 13 I notice 2 significant sign


1 first beast in power only 42 month
Rev 13

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

2. Second beast will force every body take a mark of the beast or not able to buy or sale

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.



And it will happen world wide because both of them have authority to all nation


7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

I don't think it happen yet because we still able to buy food now
The Buy and Sell thing happened during the middle ages and is now over.

The practice of Excommunication in Medieval England (under the roman catholic church)
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1468-229X.1957.tb02266.x

The sentence of greater excommunication had two immediate consequences for person who incurred it. 1) excluded from sacraments and 2) was cut off from intercourse with his fellows, with the intend to induce repentance. Other than his family no one could join him in eating or drinking, in buying or selling'....

To have the sentence of excommunication lifted one must repent for their sins against the Church and be marked with the sign of the cross (to receive the mark).

This is fulfillment of Rev 13: 17

-------------------

Here is another reference in regards to excommunication.

If you didn't repent to the Church with 40 days they would have the 1st beast of revelation arrest you.
(1st beast is a tyrannical government that was in bed with the corrupted church, the 2nd beast)
http://www.brepols.net/Pages/ShowProduct.aspx?prod_id=IS-9780888440150-1
 
Feb 8, 2019
579
108
43
My brother, I am not very good in reading revelation, but from re 13 I notice 2 significant sign


2. Second beast will force every body take a mark of the beast or not able to buy or sale

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Popes excommunicated even kings, (the great, and the rich). The king had to bow at the pope's feet and beg absolution with most assuredly was followed with the pope marking the king with the sign of the cross.

http://www.lhschools.org/Downloads/Gregory vs Henry.pdf
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
8,912
803
113
The Buy and Sell thing happened during the middle ages and is now over.

The practice of Excommunication in Medieval England (under the roman catholic church)
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1468-229X.1957.tb02266.x

The sentence of greater excommunication had two immediate consequences for person who incurred it. 1) excluded from sacraments and 2) was cut off from intercourse with his fellows, with the intend to induce repentance. Other than his family no one could join him in eating or drinking, in buying or selling'....

To have the sentence of excommunication lifted one must repent for their sins against the Church and be marked with the sign of the cross (to receive the mark).

This is fulfillment of Rev 13: 17

-------------------

Here is another reference in regards to excommunication.

If you didn't repent to the Church with 40 days they would have the 1st beast of revelation arrest you.
(1st beast is a tyrannical government that was in bed with the corrupted church, the 2nd beast)
http://www.brepols.net/Pages/ShowProduct.aspx?prod_id=IS-9780888440150-1


Seem to me rev 13 say buy and sal will happen to all nation, not only one country.
And what I remember people say after second beast than Jesus come.

And both 1 and second beast only 7 years

Daniel 9:27. “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

Again, I may wrong, but this is what I remember from baptist church where I am consider my churc, but I am not agree about their teaching for pre trib rapture
 
Feb 8, 2019
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Seem to me rev 13 say buy and sal will happen to all nation, not only one country.
So what are you saying, you really, truly believe that there has to be a one world government and one world religion, otherwise Rev13:12 cannot be fulfilled? Seriously?

Rev 13: 12
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


First of all the 2nd beast came up out of the earth, which is metaphorical to begin with.

Second, Do you interpret Genesis 41:57 this literally too?

Genesis 41:57
And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere.

You mean for this to be true the Aborigines from Australia came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph? For this to be true the Incas from Peru somehow found a way to get to Egypt too? Of course not! This is preposterous.

This notion that, the earth and them which dwell, must apply to every single person on the globe is biblically unfounded.
-----------------
And excommunication did not just happen in England. It happened in all of Europe. Under all the countries the pope ruled over.
 
Feb 8, 2019
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Seem to me rev 13 say buy and sal will happen to all nation, not only one country.
Genesis 41:57
And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere.
Are we to interpret Genesis 41:57 so literally to say that every single person on the planet came to Egypt?

If no, then why are we being this unrealistically literal with Revelation 13:12?
 
May 4, 2020
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So what are you saying, you really, truly believe that there has to be a one world government and one world religion, otherwise Rev13:12 cannot be fulfilled? Seriously?
I see it that way. It seems to me that the world will be under the beast, and that will be the only government and religion. But this doesn’t mean that there will not be people who refuse the authority of the beast. There will be people who rebel against the beast by not having the mark of the beast. But I think that if there is no way to buy or sell without the mark there must be one government. This is not a hill I am willing to die on though. I could be wrong. I think that we are getting off track though. We have already established the falsehood of CCC 841. We should continue to discuss the false teachings until an actual Catholic shows up to debate our arguments.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
8,912
803
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Are we to interpret Genesis 41:57 so literally to say that every single person on the planet came to Egypt?

If no, then why are we being this unrealistically literal with Revelation 13:12?
So you believe second beast already come to England ? What year it start and what year it finish?

Seem to me as soon as second beast stop reign Jesus come.
 
Feb 8, 2019
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So you believe second beast already come to England ? What year it start and what year it finish?

Seem to me as soon as second beast stop reign Jesus come.
England was under the Roman Catholic Church, but so was most of Europe. Also, the beast had two horns, which signified the east/west schism of 1054 AD. The eastern (Greek) catholic church also covered Russia, Asia minor, Syria, Egypt... in other words "the whole world".

Prostitute of Babylon occurs after the (1st and 2nd) beast of Revelation. And within the Prostitute of Babylon (Chpt 17) you have the phrase mentioned twice: "The beast that was, is now not, and is yet to come." This all happens before Christ returns.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,196
1,426
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Some Jews worship true God, but Jesus say, Jews that don't believe in Him doesn't believe in Moses/Torah, how people that don't believe in Torah worship God?


John 5

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
We must beleive the whole or perfect law, not the letter that kills part. but the part not seen. Faith mixed with the other part the things seen .Called the law of faith according to its labor of love..

Believing the law according to the faithless letter "death" and comparing it to ones corrupted flesh is a wile of the evil one.

As new creatures we commanded not to known any man after the flesh .It takes away the false power of the father of lies . No creature seen to spread his lies. No voice box for the father of lies.

His goal having no vision of faith is still "kill em all" The serial Killer from the beginning .Killed the first prophet, apostle and first martyr Abel .
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,196
1,426
113
England was under the Roman Catholic Church, but so was most of Europe. Also, the beast had two horns, which signified the east/west schism of 1054 AD. The eastern (Greek) catholic church also covered Russia, Asia minor, Syria, Egypt... in other words "the whole world".

Prostitute of Babylon occurs after the (1st and 2nd) beast of Revelation. And within the Prostitute of Babylon (Chpt 17) you have the phrase mentioned twice: "The beast that was, is now not, and is yet to come." This all happens before Christ returns.
The beast is the father of lies (the strange woman) . She works in all the kingdoms of men .Some are ruled as Lord and Master by her and call her Mary "Queen of heaven" The kingdoms of this world fornicate with her as a god and violate the first commandment making the second without effect .

We who have the spirt of Christ in theses earthen bodies do not wrestles against flesh and blood (things of men seen) as kingdoms and neither are we defended by them as if the kingdom did come by the avenue of the father of lies.

"observation, touching. . self edifying

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

What we need is a better observation periscopic tool in 2020. (faith) Then we can see over the horizon. Its the orange blossom special. no need for a ticket all you need is faith coming from the Conductor working in. All aboard.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The faithless Jews used to represent all of mankind turned that tool upside down and inspired from earth as a oral tradition of corrupted mankind taking away the understanding of the Potter.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
8,912
803
113
England was under the Roman Catholic Church, but so was most of Europe. Also, the beast had two horns, which signified the east/west schism of 1054 AD. The eastern (Greek) catholic church also covered Russia, Asia minor, Syria, Egypt... in other words "the whole world".

Prostitute of Babylon occurs after the (1st and 2nd) beast of Revelation. And within the Prostitute of Babylon (Chpt 17) you have the phrase mentioned twice: "The beast that was, is now not, and is yet to come." This all happens before Christ returns.
If the second beast start at AD 1054 when is the first beast start?

Daniel 9:27. “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolated, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

Seem to me first and second beast combine only 7 years than second coming.

And mark of the beast only happen during second beast and it say 42 months.

About Christian persecution, it happen since Jesus time, but I don't think every Christian persecution mean great tribulation like what it say in rev 13 to the point we can buy or sale without mark of the beast.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
8,912
803
113
We must beleive the whole or perfect law, not the letter that kills part. but the part not seen. Faith mixed with the other part the things seen .Called the law of faith according to its labor of love..

Believing the law according to the faithless letter "death" and comparing it to ones corrupted flesh is a wile of the evil one.

As new creatures we commanded not to known any man after the flesh .It takes away the false power of the father of lies . No creature seen to spread his lies. No voice box for the father of lies.

His goal having no vision of faith is still "kill em all" The serial Killer from the beginning .Killed the first prophet, apostle and first martyr Abel .
Yep, the devil is killer and father of lie, so if an organization, no matter it call, kill and lie, it is the son of the father of lie and killer
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,038
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My brother Dan, the problem is on your interpretation and your zeal to defend catholic, make you do what ever you can to make Catholic like not lie
I certainly don't think so.

Definition of zeal
: eagerness and ardent interest in pursuit of something : FERVOR
her zeal to succeed strained her relationships


I don't understand you believe Jews have zeal to God but don't worship a God.
I don't follow what you're saying here.

I believe that Jews have a zeal for God, because that is stated in the Bible.

I believe that Jews worship God, because that is what the Bible teaches.

That because ccc 841 say Muslim and us adore the same God. And you try to to cover up this lie
That why you say adore God do not mean adore Jesus
I think if you will accept what is stated in Romans 10:2, what CCC 841 says will become clearer.

You know that Jesus God, am i correct?
How Muslim that don't believe Jesus God adore God?
again, when you can accept Romans 10:2, then it will make sense to proceed, imo.

This lie is the one that you try to cover, to make look like not lie
let's deal with what the Bible says before we make charges about people covering up lies.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
8,912
803
113
I believe that Jews worship God, because that is what the Bible teaches.
And bible teach Muslim worship God?
John 5
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,038
113
For example, every denomination that recites the Nicene Creed is pledging allegiance to the RCC, which is the pope, which is the man of sin.
do you mean because the Nicene Creed says

"We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church."

if so, then I would disagree.
"catholic" above is understood by many Protestant denominations to mean "universal".
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,038
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We have already established the falsehood of CCC 84
I just wanted to say for the record that I do not, at this moment, view CCC 841 as false.

but I think it is important for Jackson and I to resolve the issue of the Jews worshipping God, and especially having a zeal for God, before we move on to Muslims.
 
Feb 8, 2019
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If the second beast start at AD 1054 when is the first beast start?

Daniel 9:27. “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolated, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

Seem to me first and second beast combine only 7 years than second coming.

And mark of the beast only happen during second beast and it say 42 months.

About Christian persecution, it happen since Jesus time, but I don't think every Christian persecution mean great tribulation like what it say in rev 13 to the point we can buy or sale without mark of the beast.
This is getting all over the place now, and I can see you are locked in to your interpretation of Daniel 9:27.
The only way forward with this discussion between us is backwards to Daniel 7. My understanding is that most evangelicals agree with this assessment of the four beasts of Daniel 7 at:
https://www.gotquestions.org/Daniel-four-beasts.html

Got Questions is saying this:
1st beast = babylon
2nd beast = medo-persian
3rd beast = greece
4th beast = roman empire
little horn = end times anti-christ

Let us focus here to assess where you stand on daniel 7.

Do you agree gotquestions on daniel 7 or do you interpret differently?