Catholicism vs Protestantism

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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I think that's one way to look at it, yes.

but for now I like the idea of sticking to Jews and Christians.
And I am not agree Hindu, Muslim or Jews that don't believe Jesus as god, worship true God

John 5
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

This what Jesus say and I can believe Jesus and catholic in the same time

Not believe Jesus, mean not believe in Moses, mean not believe Torah, mean not believe God in Torah, mean not worship true God.

If catholic teach Muslim that don't believe in Jesus worship true god, than catholic lie
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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again, I think there's a danger of running into too many subjects at the same time.

but let's keep that in mind for later!
At least you say it, so I ask for confirmation what do you mean by Catholic built strong church.
Pagan religion that teach purgatory, lie about Peter etc
To me Church mean body of Christ and catholic not build body of Christ, they build
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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the issue I have with that approach is that it means that anyone who I think does not respect all of the teachings of Jesus as I understand them is not a Christian.

as an example, I will demonstrate how your approach would work in this conversation.
since you do not respect the teaching of Jesus given through Paul that Jews have a zeal for the true God, then I would have to say that you are not a Christian.
You can say what ever you want brother, but I don't believe catholic that teach a lot of unbiblical doctrine is Christian et all
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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To me the word God include Father, Son and Holy Spirit

If Jews targeting Father only, catholic must say Jews only worship Father, refused Jesus
well, then to be fair, Paul (or the translator) has to say the same thing here.

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

he either has to say that Jews have a zeal of the father only, or he has to say that Jews only think they have a zeal of God, they don't actually.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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And I am not agree Hindu, Muslim or Jews that don't believe Jesus as god, worship true God
then maybe we can come to an understanding by talking about Jews and Christians.

I think that will be easier since there are many verses about Jews in the scriptures.


John 5
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

This what Jesus say and I can believe Jesus and catholic in the same time

Not believe Jesus, mean not believe in Moses, mean not believe Torah, mean not believe God in Torah, mean not worship true God.

If catholic teach Muslim that don't believe in Jesus worship true god, than catholic lie
is believing Jesus the same as worshipping God, in your mind?

in my mind, believe in Jesus and worshiping God are different things, although there is going to be some overlap.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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At least you say it, so I ask for confirmation what do you mean by Catholic built strong church.
Pagan religion that teach purgatory, lie about Peter etc
To me Church mean body of Christ and catholic not build body of Christ, they build
At least you say it, so I ask for confirmation what do you mean by Catholic built strong church.
no, I didn't say that the Catholics built a strong Church.
I said that Jesus promised that he would.

"rather, it glorifies Jesus when we see that he built a very strong Church, as he promised!'
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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You can say what ever you want brother, but I don't believe catholic that teach a lot of unbiblical doctrine is Christian et all
but it's not what I say.

I was demonstrating the outcome of using your approach.
I was showing what would happen if I went by what you say.

do you honestly believe that everyone who believes that Jews have a zeal for the true God cannot be a Christian?
if so, then you would have to say that I am not a Christian.
and you would have to say that either Paul or the translator of the King James is not a Christian.
 
May 20, 2020
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this reminds me of something, once i ordered something on ebay and drove round to the house. very secluded estate dominated by a large church and i sensed this was a highly religious neighbourhood. But one house stood out, wicca stars, gnomes, statues, frescos on the wall all manner of neo-pagan objects spilling out over the front garden. Of course this was the house my item was at. Nothing unusual happened but it was strange. They seemed on edge. Probably without all that clutter they might have fitted in a bit better, maybe even agreed on a few points or even popped into the church. But with that setup there was no chance. I think there are similarities and common points even with the pagan pantheon which admits eventually to a sort of monotheism but the clutter around it that is often for intentional effect makes it very hard to accept or see. The only religions i don't see as worshipping the same God are satanism and things like voodoo and obviously dark type of stuff. But within these traditions individuals may still be deceived and follow the enemy as happens a lot in the New Age, and why a lot come out of this to Christ after bad experiences
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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well, then to be fair, Paul (or the translator) has to say the same thing here.

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

he either has to say that Jews have a zeal of the father only, or he has to say that Jews only think they have a zeal of God, they don't actually.
Like I say I am not only read verse 2 but 3 4 and 5

To me Paul say Jews not worship true god.
Jews make their own god, and true god not made by human.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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then maybe we can come to an understanding by talking about Jews and Christians.
Wich Jews? Jews that refused jesus not worship true God because Jesus is one of the true God element.

is believing Jesus the same as worshipping God, in your mind?
Not believe Jesus is not believe in God. That is what imply in verse 46

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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but it's not what I say.

I was demonstrating the outcome of using your approach.
I was showing what would happen if I went by what you say.

do you honestly believe that everyone who believes that Jews have a zeal for the true God cannot be a Christian?
if so, then you would have to say that I am not a Christian.
and you would have to say that either Paul or the translator of the King James is not a Christian.
If christian willing to ponder this verse

John 5

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Like I say I am not only read verse 2 but 3 4 and 5
that's a great idea!

A thing I like to keep in mind, if a person's interpretation in the end is contradicted by something stated in the passage, then the interpretation cannot be correct.

would you agree with that?
To me Paul say Jews not worship true god.
you are correct, that it is not stated Jews worship the same God as Christians in that passage.

what is stated is that Jews have a zeal for the true God.

Jews make their own god, and true god not made by human.
then I believe translator would be incorrect in capitalizing "God".
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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the Jews that Paul is talking about in Romans 10:2.

Jews that refused jesus not worship true God because Jesus is one of the true God element.
I suggest we focus on having a zeal of the true God.
then I think the question about worshipping will be easier to talk about.
Not believe Jesus is not believe in God. That is what imply in verse 46

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
thank you for your answer, but I believe what I had asked was if believing Jesus was the same as worshipping God, in your mind?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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If christian willing to ponder this verse

John 5

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
A Christian is someone who is willing to ponder that verse?

I agree that Christians believe Jesus! More importantly I think, Christians believe in Jesus.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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that's a great idea!

A thing I like to keep in mind, if a person's interpretation in the end is contradicted by something stated in the passage, then the interpretation cannot be correct.

would you agree with that?

you are correct, that it is not stated Jews worship the same God as Christians in that passage.

what is stated is that Jews have a zeal for the true God.


then I believe translator would be incorrect in capitalizing "God".
Some time we can not interprate letter by letter. I try to consider the whole picture before interprate.

If Jews worship true God, why Paul, Peter etc try to convert them?

If Jews zeal to true God why don't they worship true God?

About interpretation I don't want to comment

Check the original language

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/10-2.htm
 
May 4, 2020
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To me the word God include Father, Son and Holy Spirit

If Jews targeting Father only, catholic must say Jews only worship Father, refused Jesus

I understand what you are saying, but this would mean that you agree that the Jews worship a true God. First, is God the Father a false God. Not at all, the Father is a true God. Second, the Trinity has existed since the beginning. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were there since the beginning, yet the Father never revealed the Son or Spirit to be worshipped. So according to your logic because God is triune the Father told them to worship a false God. I think that we would agree that He has never lied so the Jews cannot be worshipping a false God.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I understand what you are saying, but this would mean that you agree that the Jews worship a true God. First, is God the Father a false God. Not at all, the Father is a true God. Second, the Trinity has existed since the beginning. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were there since the beginning, yet the Father never revealed the Son or Spirit to be worshipped. So according to your logic because God is triune the Father told them to worship a false God. I think that we would agree that He has never lied so the Jews cannot be worshipping a false God.
Thank for your respon brother.

1. We talking about after Jesus, come and die on the cross. not before

Jesus say

John 14:6
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

To me it mean the only way to worship Father is worship Jesus.

2. Jesus say
John 5
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

If you believe Moses/Torah, you will believe Jesus

It mean The fact that Jews don't believe Jesus mean don't believe Torah

That what Jesus say, not me.

How people that don't believe Torah worship true God

Again that is base on Jesus standard not me
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
8,989
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Some time we can not interprate letter by letter. I try to consider the whole picture before interprate.
sure!
would you agree that if in the end a person's interpretation is contradicted by what is stated in the passage, then the interpretation cannot be correct?
If Jews worship true God, why Paul, Peter etc try to convert them?
because worshipping God is not the same as believing in Jesus.

Peter and Paul and all the other apostles and Christians at the time wanted as many Jews as possible to believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and to believe in him.

of course we still want the same thing today!

If Jews zeal to true God why don't they worship true God?
because they are blinded.
About interpretation I don't want to comment

Check the original language

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/10-2.htm
ὅτι ζῆλον θεοῦ ἔχουσιν

it literally says
"that zeal for God they have."

it does not say that they do not have a zeal for God.
nor does it say that they only think they do.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
8,989
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I understand what you are saying, but this would mean that you agree that the Jews worship a true God. First, is God the Father a false God. Not at all, the Father is a true God. Second, the Trinity has existed since the beginning. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were there since the beginning, yet the Father never revealed the Son or Spirit to be worshipped. So according to your logic because God is triune the Father told them to worship a false God. I think that we would agree that He has never lied so the Jews cannot be worshipping a false God.
an excellent point.

taking this passage just as an example
Exodus 33:10 All the people saw the pillar of cloud stand at the door of the Tent, and all the people rose up and worshiped, everyone at their tent door.

the people are worshipping the true God, who is a trinity.
but they don't know that they are worshipping a triune God.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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because worshipping God is not the same as believing in Jesus.
I am not agree. Jesus say

John 5

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Jews not even believe Moses, or Torah, how people not believe Torah worship true God?