Cessationism or Continuationism: What Does Scripture Say?

[enoch1nine]

Clearly they are faking "it" when there is no one to interpret what they are saying (as is often times the case). Furthermore, tongues are an actual language, not just shouting "O sheeba la la losa!", which is clearly gibberish.

Just for giggles,
"O sheeba la la losa!"
in hebrew is
"And the promise to her to her a full table!"

Sorry, couldn't resist.

There's no telling what kinds of reiteration of prophesy is really coming from people that actually fake tongues.
And they don't even know it.

 

[homwardbound]

1 Corinthians 12:8-10lists 9 spiritual gifts, to include the utterance of wisdom, the utterance ofknowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, speakingin tongues, and the interpretation of tongues. These gifts are given to members of the Body of Christ (Christians)through The Holy Spirit. The spiritualgifts are for the uplifting and edifying of the church; essentially they are abenediction that God bestows upon believers. Paul affirms this truth by stating, “Now to each one the manifestationof the Spirit is given for the common good” (1 Cor 12:7). All of these gifts come from the same Spirit,for “Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts formone body, so it is with Christ (1 Cor 12:12).

Spiritual gifts are of theutmost importance for the fortification of the church, and they are anextension of The Holy Spirit, who works through us. Yet they are not a reflection of spiritualmaturity, simply because one exercises them. There is often an unclear distinction between one who possesses Fruit ofthe Spirit and one who employs a spiritual gift. The Fruit of the Spirit is a reflection of thecooperative relationship a Christian shares with God, through The Holy Spirit,and it is more commonly found among mature Christians, as opposed to Christiansyoung in their faith. Paul states, “Butthe fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness,faithfulness” (Galatians 5:22). Whileyoung Christians can and do possess some qualities of the Fruit of the Spirit,they typically need time to let their Fruit grow and strengthen, whereasspiritual gifts are common among most, if not all Christians, regardless oftheir spiritual maturity.

One of the most recognizablespiritual gifts among believers and non-believers alike is the gift of speakingin tongues. Speaking in tongues is theact of speaking in an unlearned language, and it is used publicly tocommunicate God’s message to people of different languages, and, also, to speakdirectly with God in private. Thegreatest example of speaking in tongues can be found in the Book of Acts,chapter 2:1-11, on the day of Pentecost, when the people were baptized in TheHoly Spirit.

Baptism of The HolySpirit occurs when we receive Jesus Christ as our Savior. In turn, a Christian dies to the flesh and isresurrected in Christ upon their conversion. Spiritual baptism is an inward change, which produces positive outwardresults for God’s glory, and it is beneficial for preaching the Gospels. Jesus says, “But you will receive power whenthe Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and inall Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth” (Acts 1:8). Yet some Christians believe one has not trulyreceived the Holy Spirit, if you do not speak in tongues. Paul clearly states in 1 Corinthians 12:4, that“there are different gifts, but the same Spirit.” Therefore, speaking in tongues is not a signof spirituality, nor is it more important than any other spiritual gift. The only evidence of receiving the HolySpirit, is confessing that “Jesus is Lord” (1 Cor 12:3). To determine whether or not speaking intongues still occurs, we must take the views of ‘Cessationism’ and ‘Continuationism’and compare them to Scripture.
‘Cessationism’ is thebelief that spiritual gifts and miracles ceased at the end of the first centurychurch, or upon completion of the Bible. Some would argue that Paul teaches ‘Cessationism’ when he says, “Lovenever fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there aretongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will passaway. For we know in part and weprophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears” (1Cor 13:8-10). However it is important toexamine the word “completeness” in its context. It is evident Paul associates the term with the second coming ofChrist. So Scripture may actually bemore supportive of the ‘Continuationst’ claim. ‘Continuationism’ is the belief that we still possess spiritual gifts tothis day, and Jesus supports this view when He says, “But the Advocate, theHoly Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all thingsand will remind you of everything I have said to you” (John 14:26). Yet it could be argued Jesus was speakingdirectly to His disciples, and, thus, this teaching would not apply to ustoday. These differing views have leftme with many more questions than answers, but I have concluded regardless ofwhether you support ‘Cessationism’ or ‘Continuationism,’ in the end, spiritualgifts are only secondary; what is most important is that we have God’s love.

Please note that I am only expressing my personal views and I am open to differing opinions. Feel free to express your views on the topic of 'Cessationism' and 'Continuationism' and whether or not you feel speaking in tongues is a requirement or evidence of salvation.

Can one recieve the love of God without the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in them that Christ did say will come and did on Pentecost? Was it by obeying Law or by trusting waht Christ said for them to do? Does flesh get in the way still today?
the concern I hear from you is I hear is whether anything else outside of belief for Salvation is required pertaining to having to speak in tongues.
My answer no. Why? because that would nullify God's free gift of salvation through Christ
Romans 3:24being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Romans 5:16And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
Romans 5:18Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
Romans 6:18And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Romans 8:1[ Free from Indwelling Sin ] There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
1 Corinthians 2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
1 Corinthians 12:13For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit
1 Peter 2:16as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.

 

[Abiding]

See now, this is where rtfs comes into play in not missing the points. Clear your mind of the pre-programmed negativity and actually understand and consider what has been said instead of taking the typical knee-jerk reaction to it, and you might actually learn something.

Missed point no. 1: This is where the Krishnas RECRUIT. It is unlikely that as they were all gathering for that purpose they suddenly decided to go shopping instead.

Missed point no. 2: No I didn't time our walk-on, but we only went half a block. How long does it take you to walk half a block? I doubt it's a full five minutes. And again, Krishna recruiting masses rarely last only 5 minutes. They can go for hours. Nearly 2 dozen people gathered for a purpose totally dissapear in a matter of minutes? That's not normal I woud say.

Missed point no. 3: Yes I do know what I was praying, as stated I was praying to silence, bind and disperse them. Just like Jesus said we would.

Missed point no 4: I prayed in the Spirit of God to disband a gathering of evil, and the gathering of evil disbanded. Be VERY careful what you ascribe that to, or take away from.

Missed point no. 5: My gawd, I shake my head in sadness and disbelief at how you've hardened your hearts to the Holy Spirit acting in concert with a faithful servant to achieve the goal of thwarting evil and advancing a win for the kingdom of God! How empty your spiritual experience is!

Fill your lamps with oil and be a good steward of the gifts of God! Stop burying your talents in the ground or you will for sure share in that unfaithful servant's punishment!

I didnt miss your point. Im not unaware of the point you were making.
Im not unaware nor do i have any problem seeing the Power of God through
the Spirit and the Word.

If you decide to make a point giving your personal experience in this thread
didnt you expect it to be judged. Or commented on?

Dont you think its kinda personally selfcentered of you to overreact and say
"Missed point no. 5: My gawd, I shake my head in sadness and disbelief at how you've hardened your hearts to the Holy Spirit acting in concert with a faithful servant to achieve the goal of thwarting evil and advancing a win for the kingdom of God! How empty your spiritual experience is!

To me i take this as saying if I dont see or agree with you that God did a wonderful
powerful thing through "you" (with actually i have no doubt He would if He willed)
that I have a hardenned heart.

If thats what your saying.....Id say grow up because thats a immature reaction.
And i think the purpose of this thread is a tad larger than your personal experiences and feelings.

 

[NiceneCreed]

There is no doubt that grace is free; if it were not, then it would not be grace. My argument was against the claim held by some Charismatics that -one has not truly received the Holy Spirit unless they speak in tongues, as speaking in tongues is a sign of spiritual baptism and spiritual superiority. This view is blatantly WRONGO! There are so many contradictions within the statement itself that, one not even need to compare it to Scripture (at least one would not have to read much Scripture to prove it wrong), of course, the view also contradicts Scripture. I have always held the position that grace is grace, is grace, is grace! I suppose, however, my next forum will have to be about Calvinism and Arminianism. Now there is a topic which requires one's full concentration. Anyway, I wanted to thank you for the reply. And yes, you are correct in stating that one does not need to speak in tongues, in order for them to be saved. Nor is anything else required of someone who has a spiritual gift in general (doesn't have to be speaking in tongues), other than to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. However one should see the gifts as only secondary to the "Perfect;" who is Jesus Christ.

Grace and Peace!

 

[homwardbound]

Another thing I focused on is verse 10 of 1 Corinthians 13, what does Paul mean when he says, ". . . then that which is in part shall be done away"? Surely Paul could not have been referring to the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, however, that is usually the argument presented by cessationists: "The canon is perfect and the Holy Spirit is not." Just listen to how that line of thinking sounds. It sounds blasphemous, doesn't? And indeed it is! However, I have heard some of the strangest arguments as to why spiritual gifts ceased at the closing of the canon. Anyway, if you haven't already, check out my article posted to this forum. You may find it a bit elementary, but nonetheless, it raises some valid points about the misbelief that is cessationism. Thanks for the interest in the topic.


Grace and Peace!

Waht is done is one moves onto perfection, the perfect one is Christ and Christ is in God the only one good, gifts are always available yet the most important gift is Life in the Spirit of God which today is the only way God can be worshipped and this is what Christ came to do and give is new life here and now in the Spirit of God provided at the resurrection of Christ. Christ hung around resurrected here for 40 days after the resurrection and had the disciples wait for the Spirit of God of truth to come upon them, that there was and is no other way to get the truth out to us stubborn people born of flesh and blood that will never please God and has never since Adam and Eve ate from that tree of evil, making mankind selfish and dead in their Spirit, no life of God living in them, until after the day of Pentecost.

I am a continuationist then for God goes on forever, and can at anytime do wahtever God decides to do over asny one of us, I thnk god for the love which is perfection, his type that is and the gifts ceasing is one movinig onto perfection as God permits focused on God's love, not what one does or doesn't do anymore. God plain and simple just loves you all, no need to be an acrobat anylonger, for we are accepted and forgiven in the beloved, Eph 1:6-7, what more can we need, since God is for us before any of us were ever born here, and God said if one seeks hi above all then all our needs will be supplied, and here we all are arguing over whether or not one can speak in tongues by God, saying we can't and others sayinig they can hmmm!!!!!!!!!!
[h=3]1 Corinthians 13:10-13[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[homwardbound]

Talking about charity, then in verse 8-11 is saying that prophesy, tongues and knowledge are things which will partially, that is, the parts done in error, be done away with. Fixed if you will. But charity don't need fixing.
Verse 12 is one day understanding yourself the way God has always understood you, as opposed to seeing yourself through a dark glass, a dim version of self as opposed to how God feels about you.

It is Paul from 1 cor 12 and a the end of 12 says he will show us a more excellent way and that ends in 1 cor 13:13 where Charity (Love) goes on forever. So one will put down or just go on with the gifts of tongues, along with all the others as God permits, yet ultimately we will put down our feel good worshipping seeing the depth of God's love perfection and be led by that loving all as one sees they are loved, by God. In knowing this then what need is there to prove anything to anyone else when if one does beleive then God is able to hold them up, and I am speaking of me as well, seeing how far this love of God goes as far as the east is from the west.
Romans 14:4Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

1 Corinthians 10:13No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
2 Corinthians 9:8And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work.
Hebrews 7:25Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

No matter what if one does speak in tongues it is actually between God and that one whether it is real or not, for if that one does believe God and is faking it then God will take care of it, and if they are speaking from God doing it then all is well.
We all are nothing more than waterers or and planters of God to others and others do the same with us and for us, but when all is done and said I have learned to give all to God and trust for God to sort out error from truth for me and not condemn others if they see differantly than me. Pretty simple just love since God just love all before we any of us here were ever born back at the cross where this is shown, even though God has past tense loved us all even before all the mess here began

 

[homwardbound]

I think perhaps we don't agree on what Paul is saying. I think the point Paul is making is that, there will be no need for prophecy, tongues, knowledge or other spiritual things when we come into the presence of God. It seems to me, therefore, that Paul is not saying spiritual gifts will cease at the closing of the canon. To the contrary, it appears Paul is saying spiritual gifts will no longer be necessary when we come into the full presence of God, at the 'Second Coming' of Jesus Christ. I have to add that I am a Baptist, so my view is definitely a little slanted with favor toward Continuationsim. Also, I cannot perfectly understand myself as God has understood me, at least, not in this lifetime. Perhaps we can discuss this a little further, that is, if you would like. Thank you for presenting your particular position on this topic. And might I suggest also, if you haven't already, read my article attached to page one of this forum. As I noted in a previous statement to another member, the article is a tad bit elementary in nature, but it addresses my particular position on this topic, without leaving one to wonder where my position lies on this matter.



Grace and Peace!

I like all you said except about the second coming part,
Quote "To the contrary, it appears Paul is saying spiritual gifts will no longer be necessary when we come into the full presence of God, at the 'Second Coming' of Jesus Christ." Quote

I think Paul was talking about here and now recieving the perfection of God in the Spirit of God's Love as shown in 1 cor 13:4-13. How the minor gifts of Tongues and all the others spoken of there are child toys, and causes arguements, quarreling and the so forth, being carnal still, biting and devouring when we all have been babtized by the same Spirit of God
So loet's move onto to Love above all gifts, God type 1cor 13:4-13,
I think you see this, if not I pray God show you this that God permits this
[h=3]Hebrews 5:11-6:3[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.

 

[jerusalem]

1 Corinthians 12:8-10 really stands on it's own merit. it doesn't require supporting scriptures to make it clear that not everyone has the gift of tongues. in fact it is this very question that has caused a huge rift in the church. it seems so easy for many christians to use this scripture to show why not everyone has the other gifts such as healing and prophecy but then insist that all must speak in tongues as evidence that they have the Holy Spirit. they use scripture references of that gift ,showing it supports that those believer's being spoken of, have the Spirit. but that could be done for each set of people with their other given gifts. every gift is evidence of the Holy Spirit working through people. regardless of which gift or even set of gifts that person has been given. the vast majority of professing christians today and throughout history would have to be denounced as heretical frauds for trying to pass themselves off as believer's without the evidence of that specific gift. the claim is not supportable. it isn't scriptural and it is a false teaching that needs to be corrected

 

[homwardbound]

I disagree,Remember Jesus had already warned us there would come a time when there would be strong delusion, People would come with sign and wonders that would be so strong that if it were possible EVEN the elect could be deceive if it were possible. Is it not possible that Paul is WARNING us that the signs gifts would end so that we would NOT be led into deception if the "sign gifts" started again?

Is it not possible that when Paul says the sign gifts were to end it's to give us a grounding point in which to test these things? God did tell it is His Word that would endure forever. God wants us standing on His word. Is it not possible that that IS ONE OF THE TESTS to line it up with scripture?

Thought I would copy and paste what I posted to Nicenecreed for you to think over as well, thanks Sarah

Waht is done is one moves onto perfection, the perfect one is Christ and Christ is in God the only one good, gifts are always available yet the most important gift is Life in the Spirit of God which today is the only way God can be worshipped and this is what Christ came to do and give is new life here and now in the Spirit of God provided at the resurrection of Christ. Christ hung around resurrected here for 40 days after the resurrection and had the disciples wait for the Spirit of God of truth to come upon them, that there was and is no other way to get the truth out to us stubborn people born of flesh and blood that will never please God and has never since Adam and Eve ate from that tree of evil, making mankind selfish and dead in their Spirit, no life of God living in them, until after the day of Pentecost.

I am a continuationist then for God goes on forever, and can at anytime do wahtever God decides to do over asny one of us, I thnk god for the love which is perfection, his type that is and the gifts ceasing is one movinig onto perfection as God permits focused on God's love, not what one does or doesn't do anymore. God plain and simple just loves you all, no need to be an acrobat anylonger, for we are accepted and forgiven in the beloved, Eph 1:6-7, what more can we need, since God is for us before any of us were ever born here, and God said if one seeks hi above all then all our needs will be supplied, and here we all are arguing over whether or not one can speak in tongues by God, saying we can't and others sayinig they can hmmm!!!!!!!!!!
1 Corinthians 13:10-13

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[homwardbound]

I think you have raised some valid points. However you must remember that Jesus said, "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you" (John 14:26, New International Version, 2011). And I could not agree more that if people are looking for sign to have faith in Jesus, they are in danger of being deceived by false prophets. Does this mean, however, that if the Holy Spirit does work through believers, believers should say ". . . It is not from God, but the Devil"? Notice in my article, located in the second to last and last line of the final paragraph, I state, "These differing views [Cessationism & Continuationism] have left me with many more questions than answers, but I have concluded regardless of which view you support, in the end, spiritual gifts are only secondary; what is most important is that we have God's love."

Also, what is the point of including information regarding the Holy Spirit in the Scripture, if the Holy Spirit was only accessible to those living prior to the closing of the Canon? Or let me pose the question another way: If you believe the Holy Spirit is still on earth and working in the hearts of believers, then what purpose does it serve, that is, if it does not uplift believers in a manner that brings glory to God? Why is there even mention of the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12, if indeed those gifts do not apply to us today? Remember I ask these questions out of curiosity, because Jesus said, "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand" (Mark 3:24). Or how can we say if spiritual gifts do bring glory and honor to God that they are not from God?


Lastly, I do not dispute the fact there are many false prophets who lure people into an apostate religion. It is unfortunate the term "Charismatic" has been high-jacked by a wave of New Age, Neo-pagan Televangelists. Shouldn't all Christians be charismatic? Of course they should be. But we should not confuse charisma with what these heretics make it out to be on television. This is just one reason I used the term Continuationist, as opposed to Charismatic, when explaining the belief in gifts of the Holy Spirit. There is such a thing as a false Christianity, and more often than not, the leaders or representatives of this false Christianity use so-called spiritual gifts to deceive people. However, there is a difference between genuine spiritual gifts that are used to glorify God and edify the Body of Christ and those which are used to glorify one's-self and take the glory away from God, by focusing on miracles rather than His [God's] Word.


Therefore, I am in agreement we should not focus on spiritual gifts, signs or wonders, to the extent we lose sight of that which is truly important; Jesus Christ. Yet we should not attempt to negate how God uses His Holy Spirit through men to carry out His [God's] will.


Grace and Peace!

Maybe you need to know the purpose Paul wrote the Corinthians in the first place and maybe that might clear up a lot of your questions. Do you know why Paul wrote such a letter and enforced law so to speak on them? do you know that they were fighting and arguing over Spiritual Gifts? Do you know that they were taking advantage of God's forgiveness? I mean Paul told them God has forgiven them it is done, and they recieved this as great news.
But the enemy came thorugh the Spirit of error and injected a thought, that they accepted and stayed carnal, abusing the other members taking what they wanted with no compassion for the others.
though they recieved from the enemy of God, Spiritual warfare was since you are forgiven you can do wahtever you want, you are forgiven, yuo are free, go ahead drink up all the wine and eat all the food, have sex with whoever you want, oh and invite those women from the brothel up above you and have them preach the fact that you are forgiven so you are free. These women from the brothel had shaven heads and promoted selfishness in the fact that they were forgiven, which is a misuse ot the truth form God through the Son.
Read it from the begining and then read in 2 cor 7 where they finally did get the message and went from carnality to Spirit a Godly sorrow over the worldly sorrow.
Paul had to speak to them as babes in Christ not in maturity, we was looking for them to grow up was hurt over their misuse of the truth, taking advatage of the fact that they are forgiven as many do to this day are still carnal, even though since they believe those that do are born again by the free gift from God the Father via the resurrection
The fight today is the same as it has been from the day that Adam and Eve ate from that tree of evil, being made aware of the flesh, Therefore the fight began between flesh and the Spirit of God, and turning from self to God today restores one back to God in the Spirit of God where is the only way God can be worshipped in Spirit and truth
Hope this helps in discernment as you continue to grow in his Grace, Amen

 

[homwardbound]

I never said believers do not have the Holy Spirit. That in and of itself does not mean that the Holy Spirit still works through the sign gifts. The evidence of the Holy Spirit is the fruit of the Spirit,love,joy,peace,patience,goodness,kindness,
gentleness,faithfulness,and self control. No where in Acts can one even find that ALL believers received a sign gift. After Acts 19 Luke does not record that believers started speaking in tongues,and very little about any other sign gift. And from Acts 19 to the end is over a period of seven years. Why doesn't Luke record it? Why does James tell us when we are sick to go before the elders,be anoited with oil and pray the prayer of faith and not tell us to go seek someone who had the sign gift of healing? If the sign gifts were to continue why does James tell us what he does and not the other?

Again the whole question goes to is this what we are seeing today truly from God or not? And the second question is how do we test it to see that it lines up with scripture? How does one test the spirit that is speaking through one if one does NOT know what they are saying? How does one know if one speaking a language one doesn't know that they are praising God or cursing Jesus? I don't know about you but I for one do not want to let some spirit have control over what I say if it is a spirit that is cursing Jesus. So how does one know the difference? How do we test this before one even speaks that the spirit is from God or not?

The biggest problem with it that I see is that it seems that for the most part it is based on a subjective reality. Where does God ever tell us to base it on subjective reality?

God does this for you by the Holy Ghost that God placed in yu, you being dead to sin and alive in the Spirit of God seperates truth from error in you, problem is that we do not always listen being caught up here in this world flesh, beinig taught to work for this and that and we will be blessed. And I say the day one believes God saves them, gives them anew life in the Spoirit of God and is blessed already with life everlasting and there is no better blessiing than that and that is what OPaul is saying to the carnal corinthians move onto perfection in the love of God, put down those childi8sh toys that are and have caused division amongst you and move onto perfection the Love of God, notihng else is as important.
Hebrews 5:12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
2 Peter 2:1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1 John 2:27But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.

 

[homwardbound]

I don't how you can say that 1 Corinthians was written AFTER the events of Acts when 1 Corinthians very well was written DURING Acts. Remember in Acts one of the places Paul went to was Corinth and that was early on. Paul goes to Corinth early in his second journey. Which was about 52 AD.

Sorry we can lie so well to ourselves. Do you have any idea how many people who actually thought they had the gift of tongues found out later that the spirit that was speaking through them was cursing Jesus. Many were so sure they had the gift of tongues,it is recorded that Mormons in the 1800's had the gift of tongues. Many of them were at peace etc etc,but they had fooled themselves into believing they truly had the gift of tongues. But all of them based it on subjective observation YET THEY WERE ALL WRONG. So outside of subjective feeling etc etc How do you test that spirit? God is very clear we are to do that. We are NOT to base it on subjective feelings. It still goes back to the fact that YOU do not know what is being said. We need to remember that Paul uses hyperbole to make his points,if we lose sight of that we will end up in a bad place.

James is very clear when he says that if any of you are sick that is what we are to do. Why does he tell us to do that if the sign gift of healing was to continue? What need would there be for James to tell us to seek healing this way if the sign gifts continued? Doesn't that seem very odd that it would be changed that way if the sign gifts continued? How does that make any sense?

Well then Sarah please answer this did Christ come here to earth in the flesh? And then who is Christ?
Thanks in advance for the answer all in God's love to you

 

[homwardbound]

Again how do you deal with the fact that may people who truly believed they had the sign gifts and were so convinced of it and yet they were so wrong? They honestly believed they were glorifying God and yet they were wrong,how did they get it so wrong? Why is it that almost all who say they have this gift will believe it with all their heart,yet when people put up videos of other people doing it the other people are almost always wrong but never the people that say they have are wrong? And why is it almost no one can go through the videos and show us the difference between what they do and the video shows?

Oh maybe Sarah ask God not man, for the gift of discernment? nad oyu will know the truth and the truth will set you free. It seems you are not free. Who is the ones teacher God or man? individually, God or man? What is the fight today still?
And if one does not beleive they can from God or have from God not recieved the Holy Ghost, then one is left on their own are they not?
Eph 1:13 states we are sealed with the Holy Ghost of promise and God is not a liar

 

[homwardbound]

Again I ask the question how do you when you speak in tongues test that spirit before you speak? No one answers that question.

God will tell you, who lives in you, one knows if one asks God, God after one believes becomes ones teacher, no longer in need of others to teach you. All we can do is plant and water, recieving no other as our pupil or as we under anyone else either, now all this comes to know from God if God will permit. We are not to put our Faith anyone or anything else besides Christ sand what Christ has done for us all, by him Fahter has given us life in Father, and thus we will know the truth, this is how we know Sister, and this does not mean we fight or argue against one another, rather we love regardless of others for it is the Love of God that teaches, at least me, to say no to unrighteousness, and not of myself ever. God goes on forever in Love beyond other gifts, even though gifts of others can be fake and in many cases are but not always, and bottom line Christ is being preached, please quit being worried over others beiing decieved, for God who has recievced those that beleive, God is able to make them stand. So can we pray on this truth of God?

 

[homwardbound]

I suppose I could take it a step further . . . And I am not trying to get topical on you. So please, bear with me.

Suppose you are evangelizing to a non-believer. You think using the Romans Road or The Four Spiritual Laws will work best, considering the individual you are evangelizing to may be most receptive to an intellectual method of evangelizing. Now also consider, regardless of what you say, the individual is being stubborn. You do not understand why the individual is not convinced Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, as you have followed the intellectual models of evangelism to the letter. After giving up on these methods, you suddenly say something you would not expect to convict the heart of the non-believer. Perhaps, whatever it is you said, you mentioned only in passing, or maybe you do not even know why you said it. Yet the non-believer's heart is convicted in an instant! All of a sudden, the non-believer falls to his hands and knees crying, and he begins to praise God and asks God for grace and forgiveness. Wow! You didn't see that one coming . . .

Spiritual gifts are employed in the same manner. We cannot control them or employ them at will; rather, their use is determined by the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, the example I just gave you, as you are well aware, has occurred many times. And I thought I would mention this in passing, but, the example I provided you of the non-believer being convicted, also shows the person evangelizing to him was given the gift of knowledge. Why do you ask? The person evangelizing could not have known that whatever he said in passing to the non-believer is what it took for that non-believer to be convicted and repent of their sins.



Grace and Peace!

yes and in the same as what Christ said to the disciples I know is for all that believe today
[h=3]Matthew 10:16-20[/h]New Living Translation (NLT)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“Look, I am sending you out as sheep among wolves. So be as shrewd as snakes and harmless as doves. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But beware! For you will be handed over to the courts and will be flogged with whips in the synagogues. [SUP]18 [/SUP]You will stand trial before governors and kings because you are my followers. But this will be your opportunity to tell the rulers and other unbelievers about me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]When you are arrested, don’t worry about how to respond or what to say. God will give you the right words at the right time. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For it is not you who will be speaking—it will be the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

 

[zone]

Cessation of spiritual gifts
Exposition of: 1 Cor 13:8-13
(Part 2 of 3)

CESSATION OF SPIRITUAL GIFTS: Exposition of: 1 Cor 13:8-13

covers the issue thoroughly.

 

[homwardbound]

I clearly was asserting the spiritual gifts never ceased to begin with.

And that is becausae lives forever and ever Amen! even tohugh I have never had the Tongues gift, yet have had healing and given healing not by me tohugh by God using me as God's vessel all as God wills for God's purpose since all things work towrds the glory of God even though there are those that deny the sovereignty of God as if God is not omnipresent, and can do what God wants, and won't interfer in ones free choice as many do to others, because by not interferring of anyones free choice, prooves to me GOD's Love. Take away others free choice, is of evil and has no love in it, being a puppet, controlled by evil forces in the heavenly realms. Our warfare is Spiritual, not carnal

 

[homwardbound]

did they cease then restart?

No because God is forever God never has ceasedm never will

 

[homwardbound]

Of course Scripture is sufficient. I was merely pointing out that we may not know what passage of Scripture a non-believer may have to hear in order for the non-believer to be convicted by the Holy Spirit. That is where the Holy Spirit employs the gift of knowledge, to the believer, so that the believer quotes the passage of Scripture that the non-believer must hear in order to be convicted. Surely, the believer would know afterward it was the power of the Holy Spirit working through them to convey the passage which was needed to be heard by the non-believer. Yet it is not the same thing as mind-reading. Surely the believer could not have read the mind of the non-believer to know what passage was necessary for the non-believer to be convicted.


Grace and Peace!

And by belief I have the righteousness needed to bring others to the kingdom of God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now wait a minute this righteousness I have recieved through Christ's Sacrifice and resurrection, is not mine, I am none other than a partaker in this amazing gift, and I trust God for the right words at the right time with such logic that really none ot the opponents can reply. Only when I am God's vessel, me out of the way, like being a water glass ready for God to pick me up and use me at God's will.
Is this not what we do with water glasses, we use them at our beckon call, not the water glasses as if the water glass could ever say, why haven't you used me, made me speak in tongues or anything of the sort, when the water glass was designed for only one purpose to be filled with whatever it's master decides right and then drink?
And we are designed for this very same way from God before the fall. And God could have not given free choice for the fall and kept us unaware of Good and Evil, then if God had kept us unaware, then how could God ever claim Love, because without free choice,and falling short we would not be aware, love can't be claimed since one would be unaware of Flesh and God's Spirit. Today we are aware and the choice is either God's resurrected Spirit, hwere we recieve the same in God's Spirit by believing God, thus being dead to sinful flesh and born again in the Spirit of God, which today is the only way God can be and is worshipped, No flesh in Father's sight ever pleased God except Christ's and Christ was born perfect, and of the Virgin, so no one else can even come close, and thus Father gave gifts after being born again, by belief in God as God wills, not man. Even though there are many fakes, yet God will reveal them to you personally and me and you also, and will just love them as God does.

 

[homwardbound]

i can agree with all of this.
but you must know the scriptures in order to be an evangelist.

no one must know God and God will reveal the truth of the scriptures and teach you his love and we the creation will respond to this love. To put scripture above Christ leaves much room for misinterpretation as what is goiung on today.
One can't know truth without the Holy Ghost to tell you, me and anyone else what God says is truth. We are lost without beinig born again, left to our own selfish desires that do not bring in the lost sheep, aqnd is why the disciples had to wait, even though they knew the truth, because man can't, only God can, if one is willing to trust God to do what man can't through them, and this is the way, the truth and the life, who respond to Christ's finished work at the cross, and then move onto the resurrection, being born again by God a free gift, and nothoing man has ever done to do this, except to be God's water glass, and my cup floweth over onto the next and the next.