Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

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CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Ok, Precious friend, benefit of the doubt, here:


Thank you for the benefit of the doubt, but I think you have a presupposition about " that which is perfect" the word "Immediately " is not to be seen only with verse 10. the context continues in the remaining chapter and of chapter 14. So to make an absolute statement about 1cor 13:8-10 without the remaining unit chapters would be improper. If we continue as in verses 11-13 we see

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Is Paul speaking of the Gifts of the Holy Spirt as childish things? I think not. in 1cor 13 Paul is saying to use the gifts in Love and not be childish in the action of the manifestation but in the context of edification, comfort, and building up. In chapter 14 verse one Paul continues from chapter 13 as he says in verse one:
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
and nowhere does he even suggest they will stop or have stopped.

When Paul "penned/recorded his Last Word Inspired Of God," That Which Is PERFECT
Had Come, And, IMMEDIATELY, "That Which Was In Part Was DONE Away!"
Correct?
+
Let's Also double check all Imperfect versions today, and see IF Most agree with the
Imperfect{?} KJV, With The Following Related / Profitable Doctrine Of God:

There is ONE Baptism! (Eph 4:5) Yes, seems ALL parallel versions agree with ONE!
Meaning there are NOT TWO {or More} baptismS, Today, for the Body of Christ,
Under God's GRACE! Correct? So, WHICH ONE is it?:

Under God's Context of Prophecy And The Law:
(1) water baptism? or:

(2) your proposal of "He {Christ} will Baptize you WITH The Holy Ghost for
POWER, SIGNS, MIRACLES, And WONDERS..." = one version says "in"
This baptism Has CHRIST Acting As "The Administrator," Pouring Out
The Holy Spirit Upon
the believer, As The Recipient, Correct?

or:

(3) In God's Context, Under GRACE {with infirmities}, To Paul:

"For BY One Spirit are we all Baptized Into One Body..." (1Co 12:13) = some have "in"
This Baptism Has The Holy Spirit As "The Administrator,"
Translating the believer
{spiritually} Into CHRIST, As The Recipient! Correct, Precious friend?

Further Biblical Confirmation of "believers, Under GRACE, Today,
WITH infirmities, And tribulations, etc.":


{ From FULL "study" of GRACE Word for infirmities }:

After Paul (our #"pattern"# for Today!), prayed 3 times
for his affliction, the "Answer he Received," According To The
Scriptures, Was:


"And HE {CHRIST} Said Unto me, MY GRACE Is Sufficient For
thee: For MY Strength Is Made Perfect in weakness. Most gladly
therefore will I rather glory
{cp} in my infirmities, that The
Power Of CHRIST
May Rest Upon me!"
(
2_Corinthians_12:9 KJB!) {cp 2_Corinthians_11:23-30 KJB!}
--------------------------------------
So, the OP question: Does it make a Difference?

Glorying And boasting about YOU Being GIVEN The Holy Spirit
POWER of healings, miracles, signs, And wonders?


Or:

Glorying And Boasting In The POWER Of CHRIST Upon you,
in infirmities, tribulation, And SUFFERING?:

"For unto you It Is Given in the Behalf Of CHRIST, not only
to believe on HIM, But Also to suffer for HIS Sake"
(
Philippians_1:29 KJB!)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
PS: follow the TWELVE, Under Prophecy/Law? OR:

In God's Revelation Of The MYSTERY, Under GRACE?:

# “Those things, which ye have both learned, and
received, and heard, and seen in me, [Paul!] do: # And
The God Of PEACE Shall Be With you.”
(
Philippians_4:9 KJB!)


Precious friend, Please Be Very Richly Blessed! + "Bring Glory To God!! Amen.


for the remaining comment, I will say this Paul did pray that the persecution he was enduring would stop as he knew that satan was used to keep him humble because of the revelation God gave to him. God's grace is suffering it was His grace that allowed paul to survive shipwrecks and the bite of a viper. Paul suffered stoning, imprisonment, many other things yet he saw the sick healed, the dead rise, and demons cast out. All that at the same time HE asked God to remove the throne in the flesh.

Did Paul who was made perfect in his suffering stop seeing miracles? No. He saw people saved, delivered, healed While he endured what Jesu said we all would do.
Paul indeed boasted in the Lord and he testified to the resurrection of Jesu our Lord AND GOD CONFIRMED HIS WORD with SIGNS AND WONDERS as God does today.
 
Jun 18, 2020
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The belief that this is no longer the day of miracles comes from the philosophy of Aristotle, the pagan Greek, who said that if it can't be shown through empirical evidence then it is not real. This is the basis of modern science, and has also corrupted many branches of modern theology. Plato's opinions also has influenced the church. He said that the spiritual side of man is more important than the physical. It is this philosophical thinking that has influenced the church to prefer spiritual healing over physical healing.

Many church goers fail to appreciate how the philosophy of these two pagan Greek philosophers have greatly affected the church's thinking about the supernatural and divine healing. Therefore, Many church goers fail to appreciate how the philosophy of these two pagan Greek philosophers have greatly affected the church's thinking about the supernatural and divine healing. This is why we don't see the miraculous in most of our churches. They prefer the thinking of pagan Greeks instead of God's Word.
The belief that this is no longer the day of miracles comes from the philosophy of Aristotle, the pagan Greek, who said that if it can't be shown through empirical evidence then it is not real. This is the basis of modern science, and has also corrupted many branches of modern theology. Plato's opinions also has influenced the church. He said that the spiritual side of man is more important than the physical. It is this philosophical thinking that has influenced the church to prefer spiritual healing over physical healing.
Empirical evidence has corrupted many branches of modern theology??? What branches and how?

Was not God presenting emprical evidence with the staff of Aaron?
Was not Jesus presenting empircial evidence when He was confronted about His claim to heal on the Sabbath?


Many church goers fail to appreciate how the philosophy of these two pagan Greek philosophers have greatly affected the church's thinking about the supernatural and divine healing.
People read the Bible like you and me. Most have not read "Da Anima" or "the Republic"

This is why we don't see the miraculous in most of our churches.
No, the reason you don't see the miraculous is because it is not happening.

Bringing in Aristotle and Plato is but muddling up the water.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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So was I correct in saying you believe signs and wonders are happening in "some place" around the world, but just not anywhere that is verifiable?
As was said in a recent post: the miracles reported in the Bible cannot be verified today because all the witnesses died 2000 years ago, and yet most Christians believe they took place. And yet, when modern miracles are attested through medical records and scores of witnesses, cessationists will not believe that they took place. This is because of religious prejudice overruling reality by people who are so rellgiously minded that they are of no earthly use.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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Let me repeat what I earlier said to you, regarding anecdotal claims like the one you are saying above
I have read a whole series of booklets containing witness testimonies of miraculous healing from one end of New Zealand to the other through the ministry of a well known healing evangelist. These are testimonies supported by medical evidence that will stand up in court of law. I have a DVD containing 130 testimonies of healing of a whole range of incurable medical conditions that occurred in Auckland alone. If you tried to stand up on a court of law and tried to say that these are merely anecdotal and proves nothing, you would be laughed out the door!
 
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Google is also a "good research tool" for evidence of bigfoot, the loch ness monster and a flat earth.

Pointing people to Google to prove the existence of ongoing events is absurd. It is a sign of a bogus narrative.

Pentecostals are simply mystics who go to the doctor.
Which shows that you know nothing about real Pentecostals.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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both those verses are about God's wisdom, not His willingness to forgive nothing to do with the teaching of Aristotle, or what you call reason.
Paul says that the preaching of the Gospel is foolishness to the Greeks. He is talking about philosophers like Aristotle and Plato. According to Aristotle's "reason" the preaching of the Cross and resurrection is foolishness.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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The belief that this is no longer the day of miracles comes from the philosophy of Aristotle, the pagan Greek, who said that if it can't be shown through empirical evidence then it is not real. This is the basis of modern science, and has also corrupted many branches of modern theology. Plato's opinions also has influenced the church. He said that the spiritual side of man is more important than the physical. It is this philosophical thinking that has influenced the church to prefer spiritual healing over physical healing.
Empirical evidence has corrupted many branches of modern theology??? What branches and how?

Was not God presenting emprical evidence with the staff of Aaron?
Was not Jesus presenting empircial evidence when He was confronted about His claim to heal on the Sabbath?


Many church goers fail to appreciate how the philosophy of these two pagan Greek philosophers have greatly affected the church's thinking about the supernatural and divine healing.
People read the Bible like you and me. Most have not read "Da Anima" or "the Republic"

This is why we don't see the miraculous in most of our churches.
No, the reason you don't see the miraculous is because it is not happening.

Bringing in Aristotle and Plato is but muddling up the water.
I agree that it is not happening in your narrow frame of reference. I guess that the people in Jesus' home town didn't see any miracles in their little town, while many miracles were taking place elsewhere. The reason why they didn't see any miracles, and it is the same in your church, is because of unbelief. If you don't believe that miracles will happen, they never will in your narrow environment, whereas a church down the road who exercises faith in God's Word can have miracles happen on regular basis. But because you have no knowledge of that church, you don't see the miracles taking place.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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As was said in a recent post: the miracles reported in the Bible cannot be verified today because all the witnesses died 2000 years ago, and yet most Christians believe they took place. And yet, when modern miracles are attested through medical records and scores of witnesses, cessationists will not believe that they took place. This is because of religious prejudice overruling reality by people who are so rellgiously minded that they are of no earthly use.
We have the completed scriptures for us to believe in, that those signs did happen.

I assume you are a Protestant, sola scriptura do you remember?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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I have read a whole series of booklets containing witness testimonies of miraculous healing from one end of New Zealand to the other through the ministry of a well known healing evangelist. These are testimonies supported by medical evidence that will stand up in court of law. I have a DVD containing 130 testimonies of healing of a whole range of incurable medical conditions that occurred in Auckland alone. If you tried to stand up on a court of law and tried to say that these are merely anecdotal and proves nothing, you would be laughed out the door!
So we are asking you, if that is indeed correct, why is that not happening regularly anywhere else now, where there are believers?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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LOL
I think you may want to rethink your comment. if some pray for 100 dead people and one comes back to life was the God or luck?

If a person prays for 10 blind people and one person's eyes are open was that God or luck?
A Miracle here or there is STILL A MIRACLE LOL.



22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor, the gospel is preached.

which one of these is here or there?

What a ridiculous observation and frankly unbiblical.

Jesus said the angels rejoice FOR JUST ONE SINNER repenting. Just ONE! You can't give glory to God for the here and there?

There was a place in the Bible THAT tell of Jesus going to a town where HE could do no mighty works there because of UNBELIEF.
You are avoiding the question. When was the last time you saw someone raised from the dead in your church, or even someone who is blind who could see, or lame that could walk?

Do you not realized that now, all the so-called healing miracles are mostly back problems, muscles aches etc?

When the disciples of John was asking him that question, Jesus did all those miracles immediately, regardless of the level of faith on the recipients. Do you seriously think all of those recipients have 100% faith in him during that time?

That is what signs were meant to be during the gospel time. Now, we put so much dependence on the faith of the receivers as an excuse why they are not happening now, which to cessationalists, is faulty thinking.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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We have the completed scriptures for us to believe in, that those signs did happen.

I assume you are a Protestant, sola scriptura do you remember?
But where to the completed Scriptures tell us that the completed Scriptures are to replace the 1 Corinthian 12 gifts of the Spirit for our churches?
 
Mar 17, 2021
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So we are asking you, if that is indeed correct, why is that not happening regularly anywhere else now, where there are believers?
How do you know they are not? Perhaps they don't go around advertising it, or they know that because of your unbelief they don't bother sharing their experiences with you.

By the way, who's the "we" here? Maybe it 's just you pretending to be "we".
 
Jan 12, 2019
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But where to the completed Scriptures tell us that the completed Scriptures are to replace the 1 Corinthian 12 gifts of the Spirit for our churches?
So Ronair's point was that, just as manna suddenly stopped coming down from heaven for the nation Israel in Joshua 5:12, signs and wonders have also suddenly stopped for all of us now.

Only the most stubborn Christian would continue to insist that signs and wonders are still happening in this dispensation of grace.

So Ronair does not have to prove from scripture that they have stopped, anyone with a brain to think will see that they have indeed stopped.

But don't worry, when the Tribulation period begins for Israel in the 70th week, I believe God will once again rain food down from Heaven to feed the Jews when they take Jesus's advice to sell all they have and flee to the mountains.

As I stated, that 70th week will see signs and wonders making a comeback.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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How do you know they are not? Perhaps they don't go around advertising it, or they know that because of your unbelief they don't bother sharing their experiences with you.
See my post above this for the reply.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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So Ronair's point was that, just as manna suddenly stopped coming down from heaven for the nation Israel in Joshua 5:12, signs and wonders have also suddenly stopped for all of us now.

Only the most stubborn Christian would continue to insist that signs and wonders are still happening in this dispensation of grace.

So Ronair does not have to prove from scripture that they have stopped, anyone with a brain to think will see that they have indeed stopped.

But don't worry, when the Tribulation period begins for Israel in the 70th week, I believe God will once again rain food down from Heaven to feed the Jews when they take Jesus's advice to sell all they have and flee to the mountains.

As I stated, that 70th week will see signs and wonders making a comeback.
Using the example of manna is like displaying oranges to try and show that apples don't exist.

With the manna, the Scripture clearly says that when the Israelites started growing their own food, the manna stopped. But there are no clear statements in Scripture that the 1 Corinthians 12 gifts of the Spirit have ceased.

The main reason we don't see regular miracles in our churches is because of unbelief, hypocrisy, paganistic ceremony and ritual, and occult practices. All that Cessationists are doing is blaming God for the failures of the church to be totally faithful to His Word.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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The main reason we don't see regular miracles in our churches is because of unbelief, hypocrisy, paganistic ceremony and ritual, and occult practices. All that Cessationists are doing is blaming God for the failures of the church to be totally faithful to His Word.
Again, you should use the term "signs" instead of miracles to understand what we are saying here.

All signs are miracles but not all miracles are signs.

No one here is saying that God does not do miracles today. Indeed, I have no reason not to believe that the random miracle of healing is indeed happening somewhere around the world today, as you claim to have a DVD of those.

We are saying that the signs have stopped. Do you understand the difference?
 
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The Point is the word of God does not say they have stopped as those you mentioned believe. Me seeing it would not matter because there have been times where many people have provided testimony of what they saw and it was mocked to told " your experience doesn't change the word of God". I Have seen many of those on the list and have heard the testimony of all of them from people
So Ronair's point was that, just as manna suddenly stopped coming down from heaven for the nation Israel in Joshua 5:12, signs and wonders have also suddenly stopped for all of us now.

Only the most stubborn Christian would continue to insist that signs and wonders are still happening in this dispensation of grace.

So Ronair does not have to prove from scripture that they have stopped, anyone with a brain to think will see that they have indeed stopped.

But don't worry, when the Tribulation period begins for Israel in the 70th week, I believe God will once again rain food down from Heaven to feed the Jews when they take Jesus's advice to sell all they have and flee to the mountains.

As I stated, that 70th week will see signs and wonders making a comeback.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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As I stated, that 70th week will see signs and wonders making a comeback.
Yes. But they will not be very pleasant. On one hand the Antichrist and the False Prophet will be performing their deceptive signs and lying wonders to deceive the world. On the other hand Moses and Elijah will be bringing down divine judgments on the unbelieving and the ungodly.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Yes. But they will not be very pleasant. On one hand the Antichrist and the False Prophet will be performing their deceptive signs and lying wonders to deceive the world. On the other hand Moses and Elijah will be bringing down divine judgments on the unbelieving and the ungodly.
True, it will not be a pleasant sight.

It goes back to what I said about signs belonging to the nation Israel. (Psalms 74:9)

As Israel fell in romans 11:11, their signs went away.

But they will rise during the 70th week to be God’s favourite nation once again, and their signs would naturally also be making a comeback.

In the meantime, there is no need for anyone to insist that they are still around now, when it’s obvious that they are not