Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

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PaulChristensen

PaulChristensen

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throughfaith said:
//They claim the gifts are not for today// Which gifts ? They don't say ALL gifts. Its the SIGN gifts .
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The prominent gifts that were common in the Early Church right through to the 4th Century were tongues, healing, and casting out of demons. Those gifts that were identified as "sign" gifts were signs that the Father who Jesus revealed to the world was a God full of compassion for sick and suffering people, and those who are oppressed by the devil.

If healing of sick people was a sign, then it was the sign that He is not only the Jewish Messiah, but ours as well. Our modern world still needs to know that Jesus is a complete Saviour, full of mercy and compassion. Any other "jesus" is not the Jesus of the Gospels. The Jesus of the Gospels, heals the sick and sets people from the oppression of the devil today. Preaching a cold, religious "jesus" who stands by and allows sick people to die and people remain oppressed by the devil actually robs sick and oppressed people of the mercy and grace of God they need in their lives.
 
PaulChristensen

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Guojing said:
What I find most interesting is that there are people who insist that the gospel of the kingdom is the same as the gospel of the grace of God, that there is always only ONE gospel.

Yet, they also believe that the signs and wonders of the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 10:7-8), are no longer for today.

If the gospel of the kingdom has never gone away, why are the signs gone?
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That is a great question! Jesus said that the fact that sick people are being healed and demons cast out shows that the Kingdom of God is among them. So, has the Kingdom of God gone away in our time? If not, then the signs that the Kingdom of God is still with us are that sick people are being healed and demons are being cast out, are they not?

So what about those cessationists who believe that healing and deliverance from demons has ceased? Maybe the Kingdom of God has ceased from their churches because there would be no indications that they would still be part of the Kingdom of God.

If we can't have the Kingdom of God among us without healing and deliverance from demons, then healing and deliverance must still be happening today among believers in the Kingdom of God. Pretty logical to me!
 
T

throughfaith

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PaulChristensen said:
The prominent gifts that were common in the Early Church right through to the 4th Century were tongues, healing, and casting out of demons. Those gifts that were identified as "sign" gifts were signs that the Father who Jesus revealed to the world was a God full of compassion for sick and suffering people, and those who are oppressed by the devil.

If healing of sick people was a sign, then it was the sign that He is not only the Jewish Messiah, but ours as well. Our modern world still needs to know that Jesus is a complete Saviour, full of mercy and compassion. Any other "jesus" is not the Jesus of the Gospels. The Jesus of the Gospels, heals the sick and sets people from the oppression of the devil today. Preaching a cold, religious "jesus" who stands by and allows sick people to die and people remain oppressed by the devil actually robs sick and oppressed people of the mercy and grace of God they need in their lives.
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This is just you telling me how you feel ?
 
Aidan1

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So
PaulChristensen said:
The prominent gifts that were common in the Early Church right through to the 4th Century were tongues, healing, and casting out of demons. Those gifts that were identified as "sign" gifts were signs that the Father who Jesus revealed to the world was a God full of compassion for sick and suffering people, and those who are oppressed by the devil.

If healing of sick people was a sign, then it was the sign that He is not only the Jewish Messiah, but ours as well. Our modern world still needs to know that Jesus is a complete Saviour, full of mercy and compassion. Any other "jesus" is not the Jesus of the Gospels. The Jesus of the Gospels, heals the sick and sets people from the oppression of the devil today. Preaching a cold, religious "jesus" who stands by and allows sick people to die and people remain oppressed by the devil actually robs sick and oppressed people of the mercy and grace of God they need in their lives.
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if you would be right, then why we dont have this today. The signs? Today there are living around 600 000 000 charismatics and pentecostals worlwide. People who claime what you said. Why then the official newspapers, TV news and so on are not full with this signs, as they was known in Peter and Pauls time in Jerusalem and in the places they worked?
Instead it is to notice that even in so called healing Services people leave this meetings still sick. Where is the sign?
Would you be right, then we would have today not a so called cessationism. Because it would be obvious that the sign gifts had not be finnished.
Of course today our father heals sick, but for this you must not go to healing services, but pray to the father and let Him the answer to your prayer. He knows you at best. And be not healed is not a sign of lack faith ore God is not loving you, as many people conclude today.
That speaking in tongues is a gift that will not receive every believer teaches Paul. In opposit to the charismatic/pentecostal teaching.
 
PaulChristensen

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throughfaith said:
This is just you telling me how you feel ?
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This is showing Jesus of the Gospels, what He did in Israel, and what He does today. It doesn't matter how I feel, it is what the Scripture actually says about Jesus and His attitude of compassion toward sick and disabled people.
 
PaulChristensen

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Aidan1 said:
So

if you would be right, then why we dont have this today. The signs? Today there are living around 600 000 000 charismatics and pentecostals worlwide. People who claime what you said. Why then the official newspapers, TV news and so on are not full with this signs, as they was known in Peter and Pauls time in Jerusalem and in the places they worked?
Instead it is to notice that even in so called healing Services people leave this meetings still sick. Where is the sign?
Would you be right, then we would have today not a so called cessationism. Because it would be obvious that the sign gifts had not be finnished.
Of course today our father heals sick, but for this you must not go to healing services, but pray to the father and let Him the answer to your prayer. He knows you at best. And be not healed is not a sign of lack faith ore God is not loving you, as many people conclude today.
That speaking in tongues is a gift that will not receive every believer teaches Paul. In opposit to the charismatic/pentecostal teaching.
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It matters not a jot what the news media report or does not report, nor does it matter that people leave healing meetings still sick. What takes absolute priority is what the Scripture actually says. The Word of God says that Jesus is compassionate and heals the sick and disabled. Whether we see it or not is of no consequence. God's Word remains true: "I am the God who heals you".

It also doesn't matter what Pentecostals and Charismatics teach, because religious teaching takes second place to God's Word. Some (not all) Charismatics teach that God has to heal everyone, otherwise the healing ministry is false. God is sovereign. He doesn't have to heal everyone. He chooses whom He will heal and who will remain sick, and any decision He makes is totally righteous and we have no right to question His sovereignty. He always has a good reason for what He does and what He does not do. He is not ruled by man's demands or religious teaching.

Instead of concentrating on those who do not get healed for whatever reason God withholds it, we should be celebrating the multitudes who are being healed and delivered of demons around the world. It is significant that on many occasions Jesus told people not to advertise that they were healed. Also, the secular media is godless and anti-Christian, so often the news media never reports it. They would rather report Church scandals and falsehoods in the healing ministry rather than the very many cases where people are genuinely healed.

Concerning tongues. Yes, not all receive the ministry gift of tongues as spoken in church and interpreted. But tongues wasn't the only ministry mentioned in the list, so why point out tongues and not the other ministries that not everyone receives?

Paul said that he would that all the Corinthians spoke in tongues - personally before God in their private prayer times, and he instructed that tongues were not to be forbidden. Misquoting the Scripture about not everyone receiving tongues is robbing good seekers of the gift by inferring that even if they desire and ask for the ability to pray in tongues God won't give it to them. This is a blatant and blasphemous misrepresentation of God's willingness to give freely and abundantly to those who know His will and ask Him according to it.
 
T

throughfaith

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PaulChristensen said:
The prominent gifts that were common in the Early Church right through to the 4th Century were tongues, healing, and casting out of demons. Those gifts that were identified as "sign" gifts were signs that the Father who Jesus revealed to the world was a God full of compassion for sick and suffering people, and those who are oppressed by the devil.

If healing of sick people was a sign, then it was the sign that He is not only the Jewish Messiah, but ours as well. Our modern world still needs to know that Jesus is a complete Saviour, full of mercy and compassion. Any other "jesus" is not the Jesus of the Gospels. The Jesus of the Gospels, heals the sick and sets people from the oppression of the devil today. Preaching a cold, religious "jesus" who stands by and allows sick people to die and people remain oppressed by the devil actually robs sick and oppressed people of the mercy and grace of God they need in their lives.
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do you have anything from Scripture after Acts
 
T

throughfaith

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Yes thats what Jesus did . Its also what the apostles did.
 
T

throughfaith

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PaulChristensen said:
There are many other Scriptures that provide a reliable foundation that the supernatural gifts are for the whole body of Christ today and will continue to the end of the church age. Even if Mark didn't originally author the verses in Mark 16, the person who inserted the text certainly believed they were true, based on what was commonly going on in the churches of the time.
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I believe that Mark authored those verses . I don't believe I've seen anyone lay hands on someone and they immediately recover . They would be down at the hospitals if that was the case . The same with handling serpents and drinking poison . I believe those ' signs ' were in use back then to confirm to Israel the preaching. Im not a cessationalist because I believe they will reappear during the tribulation.
 
T

throughfaith

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Mark 16
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

This means "they shall recover." No fails or ' perhaps he didn't have enough faith . No this would have been consistent . We don't see this after Acts in the scriptures. We don't see it anywhere today . Yes God heals ,but we don't see believers doing the above to day as signs confirming the preaching . We don't see this taught in the epistles either.
 
shittim

shittim

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He is the same, yesterday, today and forever, healing is often a process, and too often we quit praying when we don't see immediate results.
He is far more concerned with our inside than our outside, more concerned and desirous of our healing inside first than outside, He knows the end from the beginning and what out eternal future holds.
He always desires, it is His very nature, we be healed, whole, well, restored.
The problem procuring it is never on His end, the problem is always down here.
45 pages of talking about it and not seeking His guidance and direction in this are a part of the problem.
We all have opinions, none of them matter.
blessings
 
T

throughfaith

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PaulChristensen said:
Are not the signs connected with going into all the world and preaching the Gospel to every creature? All it needs is 5th Grade comprehension skills to work that out. Making the passage read that the signs are just for Israel is reading into the passage something that just isn't there. The passage doesn't say, "And these signs shall follow Israelite believers." It clearly indicates believers in all the world, not just Israel.
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But what we see is that they only go to Israel . They only preach to Jews ,all the way up to Acts 7 . Even then its not until Acts 10 do we see a gentile receiving the Holy Spirit and then the gentiles are recognised as being granted repentance.
 
shittim

shittim

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I don't see believers mentioned in the gospels as seeking healing either, looks like they and we should be able to get our own. It is the adversary who seeks to steal, kill and destroy, Jesus came to model who God is and how we should live.
 
T

throughfaith

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shittim said:
He is the same, yesterday, today and forever, healing is often a process, and too often we quit praying when we don't see immediate results.
He is far more concerned with our inside than our outside, more concerned and desirous of our healing inside first than outside, He knows the end from the beginning and what out eternal future holds.
He always desires, it is His very nature, we be healed, whole, well, restored.
The problem procuring it is never on His end, the problem is always down here.
45 pages of talking about it and not seeking His guidance and direction in this are a part of the problem.
We all have opinions, none of them matter.
blessings
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But this is not in relation to having a person lay hands on you and you SHALL recover . I would say it was immediate.
"they shall recover."
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

"17And these signs shall follow them"
So its about 'signs ' . It would not be much of a ' sign 'if you could not immediately recognise the effect of it . I would think a 'sign 'from God accompanying his message would be clear .
 
shittim

shittim

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Few understand or walk "in the spirit", Jesus was very clear most in these last of the last days would hold to an outward form of godliness denying the power, that is why we have 45+ pages of talk on this here right now, how does Holy Spirit communicate with you? Do you seek His clear guidance and confirmation? This should be common knowledge for a believer, not 45 pages of blah, blah, blah.
best wishes, I'm going back to spending time with Him
 
T

throughfaith

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PaulChristensen said:
It matters not a jot what the news media report or does not report, nor does it matter that people leave healing meetings still sick. What takes absolute priority is what the Scripture actually says. The Word of God says that Jesus is compassionate and heals the sick and disabled. Whether we see it or not is of no consequence. God's Word remains true: "I am the God who heals you".

It also doesn't matter what Pentecostals and Charismatics teach, because religious teaching takes second place to God's Word. Some (not all) Charismatics teach that God has to heal everyone, otherwise the healing ministry is false. God is sovereign. He doesn't have to heal everyone. He chooses whom He will heal and who will remain sick, and any decision He makes is totally righteous and we have no right to question His sovereignty. He always has a good reason for what He does and what He does not do. He is not ruled by man's demands or religious teaching.

Instead of concentrating on those who do not get healed for whatever reason God withholds it, we should be celebrating the multitudes who are being healed and delivered of demons around the world. It is significant that on many occasions Jesus told people not to advertise that they were healed. Also, the secular media is godless and anti-Christian, so often the news media never reports it. They would rather report Church scandals and falsehoods in the healing ministry rather than the very many cases where people are genuinely healed.

Concerning tongues. Yes, not all receive the ministry gift of tongues as spoken in church and interpreted. But tongues wasn't the only ministry mentioned in the list, so why point out tongues and not the other ministries that not everyone receives?

Paul said that he would that all the Corinthians spoke in tongues - personally before God in their private prayer times, and he instructed that tongues were not to be forbidden. Misquoting the Scripture about not everyone receiving tongues is robbing good seekers of the gift by inferring that even if they desire and ask for the ability to pray in tongues God won't give it to them. This is a blatant and blasphemous misrepresentation of God's willingness to give freely and abundantly to those who know His will and ask Him according to it.
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In Mark 16 its saying they SHALL recover . So the idea is anyone that was sick those disciples had the sign gift ,that when they lay hands on them they recovered . We are talking about full recovery. Full healing . A sign unmistakable.
 
T

throughfaith

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If the ' sign 'gifts were still occurring today ,there would be no debate . There is no debate in scripture . It was evident.
 
Aidan1

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PaulChristensen said:
It matters not a jot what the news media report or does not report, nor does it matter that people leave healing meetings still sick. What takes absolute priority is what the Scripture actually says. The Word of God says that Jesus is compassionate and heals the sick and disabled. Whether we see it or not is of no consequence. God's Word remains true: "I am the God who heals you".

It also doesn't matter what Pentecostals and Charismatics teach, because religious teaching takes second place to God's Word. Some (not all) Charismatics teach that God has to heal everyone, otherwise the healing ministry is false. God is sovereign. He doesn't have to heal everyone. He chooses whom He will heal and who will remain sick, and any decision He makes is totally righteous and we have no right to question His sovereignty. He always has a good reason for what He does and what He does not do. He is not ruled by man's demands or religious teaching.

Instead of concentrating on those who do not get healed for whatever reason God withholds it, we should be celebrating the multitudes who are being healed and delivered of demons around the world. It is significant that on many occasions Jesus told people not to advertise that they were healed. Also, the secular media is godless and anti-Christian, so often the news media never reports it. They would rather report Church scandals and falsehoods in the healing ministry rather than the very many cases where people are genuinely healed.

Concerning tongues. Yes, not all receive the ministry gift of tongues as spoken in church and interpreted. But tongues wasn't the only ministry mentioned in the list, so why point out tongues and not the other ministries that not everyone receives?

Paul said that he would that all the Corinthians spoke in tongues - personally before God in their private prayer times, and he instructed that tongues were not to be forbidden. Misquoting the Scripture about not everyone receiving tongues is robbing good seekers of the gift by inferring that even if they desire and ask for the ability to pray in tongues God won't give it to them. This is a blatant and blasphemous misrepresentation of God's willingness to give freely and abundantly to those who know His will and ask Him according to it.
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It does matter, because only pentecostals and charismatics teach this.
Why I Focus on this sign gifts? Because thats the topic.
Cessationists do not believe that the spiritual gifts has stop!
They believe that the sign gifts had stopped!
It does matter, that nowhere the Papers and news are full with healings and miracles.
In the time of Paul the News and Papers would be full with the healings and miracles, because they are done openly and not in special meetings.
The other different is that in Jesus and Pauls time the miracles where a sign for Gods authority. And all who came where healed.
This you dont find today!!

Yes, it is Gods thing to heal whom he will.! That cessiationists believe, too. And thats why the dont believe the charismatic / pentecostal teaching about it.
 
T

throughfaith

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We need to remember that millions of people today have come to believe the Gospel with no 'sign 'gifts accompanying the people that told them the Gospel . The most common experience being that the person simply shared the message with them and they believed. Most testimonies do not include these experiences.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
 
T

throughfaith

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PaulChristensen said:
That is a great question! Jesus said that the fact that sick people are being healed and demons cast out shows that the Kingdom of God is among them. So, has the Kingdom of God gone away in our time? If not, then the signs that the Kingdom of God is still with us are that sick people are being healed and demons are being cast out, are they not?

So what about those cessationists who believe that healing and deliverance from demons has ceased? Maybe the Kingdom of God has ceased from their churches because there would be no indications that they would still be part of the Kingdom of God.

If we can't have the Kingdom of God among us without healing and deliverance from demons, then healing and deliverance must still be happening today among believers in the Kingdom of God. Pretty logical to me!
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That's a straw man .
 
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