Christian holidays vs Biblical holidays

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Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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="Dan_473, post: 3643958, member: 190874"]



I believe the conversation started here


which was to answer your question about working for money on the Sabbath. I don't mention circumcision. I do talk about working to earn money to spend it on your own lusts.
Your words from post #517

"I understand that there is a physical circumcision and a spiritual circumcision of the heart. It follows then, that they would also be a physical keeping of the Sabbath and a spiritual keeping of it. and just as we do not physically circumcise, it follows that we don't physically observe the Sabbath. that's how it looks to me.
our discussion is not only about the Sabbath, but about which laws we keep today.

I do remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. That is different from refraining from doing physical work on the Sabbath, just as physical circumcision is different from circumcision of the heart. and I agree we don't want to add to the scriptures."
So you do use circumcision as justification for working on God's Sabbath just as I said. That is why I replied the way I did. I listen to what you say and I reply to it. You did mention circumcision as justification for doing your work on the Sabbath.

I don't believe Jesus created the Spiritual intent of Circumcision so man could reject His 4th Commandments and get another days pay. And you failed to provide scripture to support your tradition other than using Jesus helping a brother in need..

Jesus didn't build houses on the Sabbath. He built them during the week as a carpenter, but not on the Sabbath. Why? Because it was unlawful to "work" on this Holy day. It is not "Good" to do unlawful things.

The Mainstream Preachers of His time considered helping a brother in need as a forbidden "work". It was not forbidden by God anywhere in the Law and Prophets, only by Mainstream Preachers of His time. It is "Good" and it is "Lawful" to help a "Brother" in need as Jesus did, every day of the week. I think it is an error to use this or circumcision, as justification for the long standing tradition of religious man to break God's Sabbath.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It seems Jesus, as the Word, was pretty explicit here. I think the Spiritual aspect of the Sabbath is in the mind. If we don't do our normal "servile" work on His Sabbath, but dwell on it, or think about it all day, that would be like circumcising ourselves, then following a church saturated with doctrines and traditions of man, not God. Our circumcision would be considered uncircumcision. We aren't to work, or think about work, or be consumed with our work on His Sabbath. This is a day to center on God and His Words, His Work. If we took the day off, but dwelled on our financial troubles, the concerns of work, our daily problems, then our obedience would be considered disobedience. We have six days to carry our cross, the seventh day is a Sabbath unto the Lord.

No different with any of the 10 commandments. If I don't kill a person, but hate them, I am still guilty. If I don't cheat on my wife physically, but lust after other women in my mind, I am still guilty.

We are to Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy.

You can't do that on the back nine or hauling shingles up a ladder like every other day of the week. You can't serve two masters.

I agree we should not spend the fruit of our labor on any of the following.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

We should do as Jesus instructs.

"Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness.
 

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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"
Dino246, post: 3644390, member: 223333"]It is very easy to point fingers at others and blame the ills of the church on those who don't believe/practice as "we" do. However, that has no basis in objective fact until and unless you undertake some extensive research. The fundamental problem with finger pointing is that anyone can do it, and without objective evidence, none of them are wrong! So I could just as easily point at Sabbath-keepers for polluting the gospel with law and undermining the Church by their error. Do you see my point?
It seems in your defense of Mainstream Christianity you have forgotten why Jesus came to the Last sheep of Israel in the first place.

They were "lost" because their one exposure to God's Word was filtered through the Priests and Mainstream Preachers of their time which had rejected God's true teaching and replaced it with their own doctrines created after the commandments of men.

The true Law and Prophets were "heresy" to them.

Jesus pointed His Finger at them and condemned their preaching, not because it was easy, but because it was true. Because they had mixed God's Instructions, with doctrines and traditions of men, Jesus said there was NO truth in them. None. He said when they read Moses, listen to them, but don't do as they preach, because they said they taught Moses, but they didn't.

I don't see any difference between them, and modern Mainstream Christianity today. Different names, different traditions, but the same outcome. A church which transgresses the commandments of God by their own traditions. Nothing is different. Those who belonged to their church believed they were justified in their traditions, and those who belong in todays church also believe they are justified in their traditions.

Those who exposed these man made traditions were scorned and ridiculed then, and they are today as well.

The world is the way it is because men (and women) love their sin. The church is the way it is for the same reason. However, once we stop defining the ekklesia by who attends a denominational church, we might realize that the true Church is still functional. There will be unsaved, mislead, mentally ill, hurting, and demonized people until the Lord's return. Our job is to preach the gospel and live it.
The problem with the Mainstream Church of Christ's time is the "Preachers" truly believed they were God's Children teaching God's Truth. But Jesus clearly pointed out they were not God's Children even though they believed they were.

As a result "unsaved, mislead, mentally ill, hurting, and demonized people" were the ones preaching to people how to enter God's Kingdom. They didn't know they were this way because they were deceived, or "Blind" as Jesus said. The Blind leading the Blind, or to coin your Phrase:

The unsaved, mislead, mentally ill, hurting, and demonized people, leading the unsaved, mislead, mentally ill, hurting, and demonized people.

Jesus exposed this truth to them in an attempt to save them. They must first understand and accept that the problem was "within them". But Man doesn't like to be told they are wrong, especially men who believe they are already saved, already righteous.

It was the same with Cain and Abel, Caleb and the rest of the Children of Israel, Jesus and the Jews, and it will be the same for mankind today.

Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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They were "lost" because their one exposure to God's Word was filtered through the Priests and Mainstream Preachers of their time which had rejected God's true teaching and replaced it with their own doctrines created after the commandments of men.
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
(Acts 15:21)
touching the righteousness which is in the Law, blameless.
(Philippians 3:6)
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
(Luke 1:6)
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John.
(Luke 16:16)
You know the commandments
(Mark 10:19)
After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the leaders of the synagogue sent word to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have a word of exhortation for the people, please speak."
(Acts 13:15)
 

posthuman

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the presence of an evil shepherd does not mean there was no grass in the field.
 

gb9

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Jan 18, 2011
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remember post, house of cards theology. he moves one just a fraction of an inch, the whole thing falls.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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"

It seems in your defense of Mainstream Christianity you have forgotten why Jesus came to the Last sheep of Israel in the first place.

They were "lost" because their one exposure to God's Word was filtered through the Priests and Mainstream Preachers of their time which had rejected God's true teaching and replaced it with their own doctrines created after the commandments of men.

The true Law and Prophets were "heresy" to them.

Jesus pointed His Finger at them and condemned their preaching, not because it was easy, but because it was true. Because they had mixed God's Instructions, with doctrines and traditions of men, Jesus said there was NO truth in them. None. He said when they read Moses, listen to them, but don't do as they preach, because they said they taught Moses, but they didn't.

I don't see any difference between them, and modern Mainstream Christianity today. Different names, different traditions, but the same outcome. A church which transgresses the commandments of God by their own traditions. Nothing is different. Those who belonged to their church believed they were justified in their traditions, and those who belong in todays church also believe they are justified in their traditions.

Those who exposed these man made traditions were scorned and ridiculed then, and they are today as well.



The problem with the Mainstream Church of Christ's time is the "Preachers" truly believed they were God's Children teaching God's Truth. But Jesus clearly pointed out they were not God's Children even though they believed they were.

As a result "unsaved, mislead, mentally ill, hurting, and demonized people" were the ones preaching to people how to enter God's Kingdom. They didn't know they were this way because they were deceived, or "Blind" as Jesus said. The Blind leading the Blind, or to coin your Phrase:

The unsaved, mislead, mentally ill, hurting, and demonized people, leading the unsaved, mislead, mentally ill, hurting, and demonized people.

Jesus exposed this truth to them in an attempt to save them. They must first understand and accept that the problem was "within them". But Man doesn't like to be told they are wrong, especially men who believe they are already saved, already righteous.

It was the same with Cain and Abel, Caleb and the rest of the Children of Israel, Jesus and the Jews, and it will be the same for mankind today.

Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
I agree with you 100% Studyman....things are no different today than they were in the OT.
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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... The problem with the Mainstream Church of Christ's time
At the time when Christ was on earth, there was no Church. The people to whom Jesus preached were Israelites under the Law, not Christians freed from the Law.

... They must first understand and accept that the problem was "within them". But Man doesn't like to be told they are wrong, especially men who believe they are already saved, already righteous.
Preach that to the mirror.

Until you rightly divide the word of truth, you will continue in your error. I will not join you in it.

Either we are under the Law in its entirety or we are not under the Law at all. Ephesians 5:18 "Bit if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law."
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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="Dan_473, post: 3643958, member: 190874"]
no I mean I didn't mention circumcision in post 582 where talking about The Sermon on the Mount approach to the Sabbath begin, in which you had asked about working to earn money on the Sabbath.


Jesus did provide scripture


Give us today our daily bread.12 Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. 13 Bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For yours is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. Amen.[a] ’



14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you don’t forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.



16 “Moreover when you fast, don’t be like the hypocrites, with sad faces. For they disfigure their faces, that they may be seen by men to be fasting. Most certainly I tell you, they have received their reward. 17 But you, when you fast, anoint your head, and wash your face; 18 so that you are not seen by men to be fasting, but by your Father who is in secret, and your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you.



19 “Don’t lay up treasures for yourselves on the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal;20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consume, and where thieves don’t break through and steal; 21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.



22 “The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is sound, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is evil, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!



24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You can’t serve both God and Mammon. 25 Therefore I tell you, don’t be anxious for your life: what you will eat, or what you will drink; nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Isn’t life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 See the birds of the sky, that they don’t sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you of much more value than they?



27 “Which of you, by being anxious, can add one moment[b] to his lifespan? 28 Why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They don’t toil, neither do they spin, 29 yet I tell you that even Solomon in all his glory was not dressed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, won’t he much more clothe you, you of little faith?



31 “Therefore don’t be anxious, saying, ‘What will we eat?’, ‘What will we drink?’ or, ‘With what will we be clothed?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first God’s Kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things will be given to you as well.34 Therefore don’t be anxious for tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Each day’s own evil is sufficient.
Don’t judge, so that you won’t be judged. 2 For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but don’t consider the beam that is in your own eye? 4 Or how will you tell your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye;’ and behold, the beam is in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye.

6 “Don’t give that which is holy to the dogs, neither throw your pearls before the pigs, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

7 “Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or who is there among you, who, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, who will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!12 Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

13 “Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it.14 How[a] narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it.

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. 16 By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit.18 A good tree can’t produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that doesn’t grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’

24 “Everyone therefore who hears these words of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, who built his house on a rock. 25 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it didn’t fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of mine, and doesn’t do them will be like a foolish man, who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

the scriptures don't say what Jesus did on the Sabbath when he was working as a carpenter. it's not clear whether he was building houses or making cabinets. to draw conclusions based on what Jesus did on the Sabbath, when it's not stated in the scripture, is speculation.
I agree that we are not to do our own work on the Sabbath. I think it is good to Center on God in his works every day.
exactly! You can't serve two masters. So what will you do with your excess? Will you work 6 days a week in order to get more then you need for necessities, and spend it on yourself?
and amen, seek first God's kingdom and his righteousness, which in the context of The Sermon on the Mount follows the section about considering the birds and the lilies.
 

Studyman

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For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
(Acts 15:21)
Matt. 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
touching the righteousness which is in the Law, blameless.
(Philippians 3:6)
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
And what Law did the Pharisees preach?

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God as you preach)


And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
(Luke 1:6)
And they knew Jesus when He came Post. But the Pharisees, including Paul; did not. Why did Jesus manifest Himself to Zechariahs and not Saul or the Pharisees?​
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.​
Jesus manifested Himself to Zechariahs but not the Pharisees or Paul, the perfect Pharisee. There is a reason for this.​
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John.
(Luke 16:16)
Luke 16:
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, (Not walking in God's Commandments blameless as you preach) heard all these things: and they derided him. (a common practice among religious man)

15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men (Religious traditions of men) is abomination in the sight of God.

16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
You know the commandments
(Mark 10:19)
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Matt. 19:
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
We all have the commandments Post, as did they. So why didn't they "know Jesus"?​
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.​
As I have said and truly believe, one must live by EVERY WORD of GOD, not just the ones was can twist to promote our own religious traditions.​
After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the leaders of the synagogue sent word to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have a word of exhortation for the people, please speak."
(Acts 13:15)
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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one may wish to consider
Now I would not have you ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;2 and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. 5 However with most of them, God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Don’t be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”[a]8 Let us not commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell. 9 Let us not test Christ,[b] as some of them tested, and perished by the serpents. 10 Don’t grumble, as some of them also grumbled, and perished by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he doesn’t fall.



13 No temptation has taken you except what is common to man. God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but will with the temptation also make the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

we see that one reason the examples from the Old Testament we're given is so that we would know to flee from idolatry.
we know that a person can't serve both God and Mammon.
if a person is working to earn money in excess of what they need for necessities, working to earn money to spend it on their own lusts, then I would say they are doing or are in danger of loving and serving Mammon.
if a person is loving and serving Mammon then I would say they are in danger of, or are already doing, idolatry. which would also mean, I believe, but they have misunderstood the examples from the Old Testament.
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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As I have said and truly believe, one must live by EVERY WORD of GOD, not just the ones was can twist to promote our own religious traditions.
So you preach physical circumcision? That's part of the "every word of God" (just like the Sabbath and the feasts). Or do you preach that physical circumcision is not required of those coming to Christ?

You cannot have it both ways. Either you attempt to be righteous in your own strength by following the Law perfectly (and will fail) or you accept the perfect completed work of Christ and have His righteousness and fulfillment of the Law imputed to you by faith.
 

Yahshua

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Sep 22, 2013
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Does the suicide rate over the holidays have anything at all to do with the Christian message of hope in Christ, or is that, together with the strife and contention, much more likely founded in warped and world-infected expectations and desires? That is where the Gospel is needed most, and if Christmas and Easter get a few pagans into the pews to hear good news, that is reason enough to celebrate the holidays.

Does the Holy Spirit descend and empower any people who practice any holiday? There is no Scripture to suggest that He does. This is the same kind of reasoning that leads to criticizing fish for their inability to climb trees.
Just replying to the portion I highlight in your quote...

But didn't the Holy Spirit descend and empower the apostles specifically on the Feast of Weeks Holiday (also known as Pentecost)?

Pentecost = 50th

Leviticus 23:15-16
15 From the day after the Sabbath, the day you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, you are to count seven full [shabuim]. 16 You shall count fifty days until the day after the seventh Sabbath, and then present an offering of new grain to the LORD.


Acts 2:1-4
1 When the day of Pentecost came, the believers were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like a mighty rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw tongues like flames of a fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.


(I'm probably not understanding the rhetorical question in context. Maybe you meant the question in context of present day..)
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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Just replying to the portion I highlight in your quote...

But didn't the Holy Spirit descend and empower the apostles specifically on the Feast of Weeks Holiday (also known as Pentecost)?
...
(I'm probably not understanding the rhetorical question in context. Maybe you meant the question in context of present day..)
I was responding specifically to another's post, "I think the strongest evidence that we should refrain from blending Pagan practices into true Christian holy days is found in the conduct of Believers and non-believers during these mixed holiday seasons. Christmas time for instance has the highest suicide rate of any time of the year which to me is hardly indicative that the Holy Spirit descends and Power upon all those who practice this holiday celebration. "

I was questioning the reasoning of his last sentence quoted above. I don't believe that the Holy Spirit descends in power on those who practice any particular holiday celebration, whether Jewish, Christian, or (obviously) other. Therefore, the idea that the apparent absence of Holy Spirit power on those who celebrate Christmas is not adequate support for rejecting the celebration of Christmas. :)
 

Studyman

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So you preach physical circumcision? That's part of the "every word of God" (just like the Sabbath and the feasts). Or do you preach that physical circumcision is not required of those coming to Christ?

You cannot have it both ways. Either you attempt to be righteous in your own strength by following the Law perfectly (and will fail) or you accept the perfect completed work of Christ and have His righteousness and fulfillment of the Law imputed to you by faith.
I don't believe in the teachings and doctrines of a church which openly transgresses the commandments of God by their own religious traditions.

I don't believe righteousness is somehow determined by vote or consensus among these same religious men.

I do believe in the perfect, complete work of the Word which became Flesh. That is why I Honor Him with reverence to His Ways and His Righteousness and not ancient Religious High Days.

I believe the Bible is clear in the intent of Circumcision.

Duet. 10:
12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.
15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

I also believe the Word which became Flesh is clear on the intent of His Holy Sanctified Sabbath.

Is. 58:
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

You are right about one thing. You can't serve two masters.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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one may wish to consider
Now I would not have you ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;2 and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. 5 However with most of them, God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Don’t be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”[a]8 Let us not commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell. 9 Let us not test Christ,[b] as some of them tested, and perished by the serpents. 10 Don’t grumble, as some of them also grumbled, and perished by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he doesn’t fall.



13 No temptation has taken you except what is common to man. God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but will with the temptation also make the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

we see that one reason the examples from the Old Testament we're given is so that we would know to flee from idolatry.
we know that a person can't serve both God and Mammon.
if a person is working to earn money in excess of what they need for necessities, working to earn money to spend it on their own lusts, then I would say they are doing or are in danger of loving and serving Mammon.
if a person is loving and serving Mammon then I would say they are in danger of, or are already doing, idolatry. which would also mean, I believe, but they have misunderstood the examples from the Old Testament.
I couldn't agree more.

This is why I speak out against religions which take the name of Christ, yet Transgress the Commandments of God by their ancient religious traditions. The examples show what happens when a religion creates their own "Feasts unto the Lord" as well as defile His Holy Sabbath with their own work God gave them ample time during God's created week to complete. We are bought with a price.

I also agree that using the fruits of our labor to follow any of these things below is not a righteous thing to do. And giving of the Blessings God bestowed on us to random poor people we know nothing about may look good to men, but doesn't line up with how Jesus helped those in need.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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At the time when Christ was on earth, there was no Church. The people to whom Jesus preached were Israelites under the Law, not Christians freed from the Law.



Preach that to the mirror.

Until you rightly divide the word of truth, you will continue in your error. I will not join you in it.

Either we are under the Law in its entirety or we are not under the Law at all. Ephesians 5:18 "Bit if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law."
And this is where most make their mistake, thinking all the law as one entirity, putting no difference between holy and unholy or spiritual and carnal.
You talk about DIVIDING the word of truth - yet at the same time you put no difference between holy and unholy.....you don't think that is confusing ?
GOD puts difference between HIS Holy Commandments which are eternal and carnal/works commandments which are temporal ! So when we fail to see that difference we OBVIOUSLY will get things wrong...either abolishing all or none ....hence the confusion and disagreements.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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And this is where most make their mistake, thinking all the law as one entirity, putting no difference between holy and unholy or spiritual and carnal.
which part of the Law are you calling unholy & carnal?

So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
(Romans 7:12)
We know that the Law is spiritual
(Romans 7:14)

the word for 'Law' here in the scripture is singular, as it is all over the scripture.
why would you say it's a '
mistake' to think of the Law the way the scripture itself describes it?
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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And this is where most make their mistake, thinking all the law as one entirity, putting no difference between holy and unholy or spiritual and carnal.
“Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Ask now the priests for a ruling:
‘If a man carries holy meat in the fold of his garment, and touches bread with this fold, or cooked food, wine, oil, or any other food, will it become holy?’” And the priests answered, “No.” Then Haggai said, “If one who is unclean from a corpse touches any of these, will the latter become unclean?” And the priests answered, “It will become unclean.”
(Haggai 2:11-13)
the scripture says the Law ((singular)) is holy and is spiritual.

if the carnal and unholy mixes with the holy then the whole lump becomes unclean.

if you call some of the Law unholy and carnal, are you not calling it all unclean?
"
a little leaven"
 

posthuman

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I believe the Bible is clear in the intent of Circumcision.
clearly with regard to circumcision it was physically commanded and no longer is, and can in fact be anathema to physically keep as though by Law.

clearly spiritual circumcision of the heart is not done with human hands: it is the Lord's doing, not mans.

No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise does not come from men, but from God.
(Romans 2:29)
In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ
(Colossians 2:11)
the intention of circumcision is clearly spelled out in scripture. ((Genesis 17, Romans 4:11 espc.))
circumcision was given as a sign
its removal is given as a sign