Back up your accusing. If your accusing is limited to that I believe in scripture, even Genesis, then you are correct. I believe in the word of the Lord. You call that plugging MY (not the Lord's) Sabbath, and being it is part of scripture, I plug scripture. I am only one person of the millions God created, scripture aces out anything either you or I say.
Christians and the Law of Moses
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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Hi
Sorry am I missing something you are trying to convey?
1 Corinthians 8:1-8
Be Sensitive to Conscience
1 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.
2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.
3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.
Sorry am I missing something you are trying to convey?
1 Corinthians 8:1-8
Be Sensitive to Conscience
1 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.
2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.
3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.
We need the rest of chapter 8 in 1 Corinthians to see what Paul is trying to convey:
1 CORINTHIANS 8: ABSTAIN FROM MEATS OFFERED TO IDOLS
9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend* [to cause to sin or stumble], I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend [to cause to sin or stumble].
Strong's Concordance
*skandalizó: to put a snare (in the way), hence to cause to stumble, to give offense
Original Word: σκανδαλίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: skandalizó
Phonetic Spelling: (skan-dal-id'-zo)
Definition: to put a snare (in the way), to cause to stumble, to give offense
Usage: I cause to stumble, cause to sin, cause to become indignant, shock, offend.
The gist of Paul's teaching corresponds to Acts 15:29 which says that Christians are to abstain from meats offered to idols. In the first part of that chapter he explains that the idol is nothing, and the gods represented by those idols are not really gods. (In fact they are demons). But not everyone knows this. Therefore for a Christian to partake of such meats is to cause others to sin. Thus the bottom line is that Christians must abstain from such meats regardless of their knowledge of the truth about idols.
In addition to this, the meats eaten by Gentiles may have retained the blood of the animals, and the consumption of blood is forbidden, because God gives blood a very special significance (particularly in light of the shed blood of Christ). The blood of animals killed by Hebrews was to be totally drained, so that only the flesh was eaten, "for the life of the flesh is in the blood".
1 CORINTHIANS 8: ABSTAIN FROM MEATS OFFERED TO IDOLS
9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend* [to cause to sin or stumble], I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend [to cause to sin or stumble].
Strong's Concordance
*skandalizó: to put a snare (in the way), hence to cause to stumble, to give offense
Original Word: σκανδαλίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: skandalizó
Phonetic Spelling: (skan-dal-id'-zo)
Definition: to put a snare (in the way), to cause to stumble, to give offense
Usage: I cause to stumble, cause to sin, cause to become indignant, shock, offend.
The gist of Paul's teaching corresponds to Acts 15:29 which says that Christians are to abstain from meats offered to idols. In the first part of that chapter he explains that the idol is nothing, and the gods represented by those idols are not really gods. (In fact they are demons). But not everyone knows this. Therefore for a Christian to partake of such meats is to cause others to sin. Thus the bottom line is that Christians must abstain from such meats regardless of their knowledge of the truth about idols.
In addition to this, the meats eaten by Gentiles may have retained the blood of the animals, and the consumption of blood is forbidden, because God gives blood a very special significance (particularly in light of the shed blood of Christ). The blood of animals killed by Hebrews was to be totally drained, so that only the flesh was eaten, "for the life of the flesh is in the blood".
The reason that Paul gave the laws he did was because the synagogues demanded that people allowed to attend obey these laws.
It was the news at the time that the synagogues were clamping down on gentiles converting for a time, then going back to their parties and idol worship taking the Jewish friends they had made with them. They made up 18 rules that converts had to follow. We read about it in Acts. We don't have the list of the 18 rules they made, we are only told about it by historians of the time, but we are told fleshly circumcision was one of them.
The church council felt it was important that they learn about God in synagogue, The idea that the ways of Christ was different from the ways of the Father was a thought that even Paul did not have. That came later when gentiles took over the church. The gentiles looked down on Jews, they had little knowledge of scripture, and their background was pagan worship.
They got rid of Sabbath by having Mary declare the day they were used to their church was Sabbath, and Christianized their holidays saying God's ways were too Jewish and added theirs to church doctrine.
It was the news at the time that the synagogues were clamping down on gentiles converting for a time, then going back to their parties and idol worship taking the Jewish friends they had made with them. They made up 18 rules that converts had to follow. We read about it in Acts. We don't have the list of the 18 rules they made, we are only told about it by historians of the time, but we are told fleshly circumcision was one of them.
The church council felt it was important that they learn about God in synagogue, The idea that the ways of Christ was different from the ways of the Father was a thought that even Paul did not have. That came later when gentiles took over the church. The gentiles looked down on Jews, they had little knowledge of scripture, and their background was pagan worship.
They got rid of Sabbath by having Mary declare the day they were used to their church was Sabbath, and Christianized their holidays saying God's ways were too Jewish and added theirs to church doctrine.
The Torah is NOT mere "guidance". You don't stand guilty before God because you have not followed God's "guidance"; you are guilty because you have broken the Law.
The Law that stood against us was cancelled when it was nailed to the cross. No amount of rewording, equivocating, and redefining is going to change that.
Recognizing that the Law has been cancelled is not the same as "ignoring" it. It means understanding that our relationship with God is not dependent any longer on our adherence to it. Rather, our relationship is entirely dependent on the finished work of Jesus Christ.
The Law that stood against us was cancelled when it was nailed to the cross. No amount of rewording, equivocating, and redefining is going to change that.
Recognizing that the Law has been cancelled is not the same as "ignoring" it. It means understanding that our relationship with God is not dependent any longer on our adherence to it. Rather, our relationship is entirely dependent on the finished work of Jesus Christ.
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I agree, the law is much more than guidance, but it is also much more than law.
I don't think there is universal understanding of what the Lord means by nailed t the cross. Sin has no power to kill through what Christ did, but what scripture tells us is law still is to have a very powerful force in our life. When we give ourselves to Christ for forgiveness, we take on His spirit, and we cannot have our affections on both sin and Christ. The law explains His spirit in human form. When people say it is cancelled, it is a misinterpretation of what has happened.
I don't think there is universal understanding of what the Lord means by nailed t the cross. Sin has no power to kill through what Christ did, but what scripture tells us is law still is to have a very powerful force in our life. When we give ourselves to Christ for forgiveness, we take on His spirit, and we cannot have our affections on both sin and Christ. The law explains His spirit in human form. When people say it is cancelled, it is a misinterpretation of what has happened.
Romans 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The way of trying to work at the 10 commandments was already tried exhaustively and failed miserably. We had no hope if all we were given is the 10 commandments to try and obey.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
If we REALLY did know that the law is spiritual we wouldn't have so many arguments from people who try to follow it. Spiritual laws can't be followed by carnal people. But carnal people always think the law is carnal and can be followed carnally.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
This is what the 10 commandments are commanding, for those with the ears to hear. I don't know what to tell people who obstinately hold to their position that the 10 commandments are still valid for Christians except "Good Luck".
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The way of trying to work at the 10 commandments was already tried exhaustively and failed miserably. We had no hope if all we were given is the 10 commandments to try and obey.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
If we REALLY did know that the law is spiritual we wouldn't have so many arguments from people who try to follow it. Spiritual laws can't be followed by carnal people. But carnal people always think the law is carnal and can be followed carnally.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
This is what the 10 commandments are commanding, for those with the ears to hear. I don't know what to tell people who obstinately hold to their position that the 10 commandments are still valid for Christians except "Good Luck".
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No. It being cancelled is pretty much the perfect interpretation of what happened.
It was fulfilled By Christ. For those who place their trust in Christ there is NOTHING left for them to fulfill on their own. It was ALL PERFECTLY FULFILLED.
And that is why we Rest in Christ.
The misunderstand that Judaizers have when you tell them you are dead to the law and the law has been cancelled is that we now have something BETTER THAN THE LAW.
We have the Power of Christ. Which is evident in the fruit of the Spirit. And it is these fruit, and only these fruit, that have any chance of obeying a spiritual law.
Galatians 2:19-21
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It was fulfilled By Christ. For those who place their trust in Christ there is NOTHING left for them to fulfill on their own. It was ALL PERFECTLY FULFILLED.
And that is why we Rest in Christ.
The misunderstand that Judaizers have when you tell them you are dead to the law and the law has been cancelled is that we now have something BETTER THAN THE LAW.
We have the Power of Christ. Which is evident in the fruit of the Spirit. And it is these fruit, and only these fruit, that have any chance of obeying a spiritual law.
Galatians 2:19-21
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
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The letter of the law (scripture) brings death. The whole Bible is the law of God. It is not made up of the philosophical private interpretations of men as personal commentaries .
Can't divide the law from the law. The letter of the law and its sufferings of death will be cast into the judgment of God on the last day. It will not rise up and condemn through corruption another entire creation.
The former thing of here will not be remembered or ever come to mind .(no Bible, the law)
Can't divide the law from the law. The letter of the law and its sufferings of death will be cast into the judgment of God on the last day. It will not rise up and condemn through corruption another entire creation.
The former thing of here will not be remembered or ever come to mind .(no Bible, the law)
Even the sun and the tides of the ocean obey God's laws, I don't think your efforts to get rid of the law will ever succeed.
The Lord promised way back in Leviticus we are to have salvation through the blood and Christ fulfilled that promise. So fleshly men say OK, thanks Lord, now the law is taken care of, I'll cancel the whole law!! The Lord tells us to give our sin to Christ with repentance and it will be wiped out, the Lord didn't say you can hold on to your sin and I'll just overlook it.
The Lord promised way back in Leviticus we are to have salvation through the blood and Christ fulfilled that promise. So fleshly men say OK, thanks Lord, now the law is taken care of, I'll cancel the whole law!! The Lord tells us to give our sin to Christ with repentance and it will be wiped out, the Lord didn't say you can hold on to your sin and I'll just overlook it.
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No. That is exactly what the Bible says regarding the Old Covenant (the Law of Moses). Indeed the Bible says that it has been ABOLISHED.
And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished*: (2 Cor 3:13)
Strong's Concordance (2637)
*katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Definition: to render inoperative, abolish
Usage: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.
In this chapter Paul contrasts the New Covenant with the Old Covenant, and the above is a reference to the end of the Old Covenant. God says that it has been abolished, for the simple reason that the New Covenant is FAR SUPERIOR to the Old Covenant.
You have probably had this pointed out to you at least a dozen times, some by myself. But you continue to OPPOSE GOD AND CHRIST in this matter. Which means that you are making God a liar. A very dangerous position to be in. You would be wise to repent of your folly, and make a serious effort to understand the meaning of the finished work of Christ.
And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished*: (2 Cor 3:13)
Strong's Concordance (2637)
*katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Definition: to render inoperative, abolish
Usage: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.
In this chapter Paul contrasts the New Covenant with the Old Covenant, and the above is a reference to the end of the Old Covenant. God says that it has been abolished, for the simple reason that the New Covenant is FAR SUPERIOR to the Old Covenant.
You have probably had this pointed out to you at least a dozen times, some by myself. But you continue to OPPOSE GOD AND CHRIST in this matter. Which means that you are making God a liar. A very dangerous position to be in. You would be wise to repent of your folly, and make a serious effort to understand the meaning of the finished work of Christ.
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We are told in 2 Cor. 3 that Christ took away the veil to what is Holy. And we are told the law is Holy. But something is of no use any more. Is the law of no use any more and gotten too old to be effective? I think not. Cutting foreskin is not effective any more, we have the Holy Spirit to lead us to Christ. Many customs of the Jews are replaced by being led to obedience by the Holy Spirit. But today's Christiams, almost all of them, have tossed God's instructions out with what the Holy Spirit is supposed to guide us to.
In Ezekiel 36:26-27 we are told the new covenant does for us the opposite of what most of today's Christians preach it does---it leads us to obedience.
In Ezekiel 36:26-27 we are told the new covenant does for us the opposite of what most of today's Christians preach it does---it leads us to obedience.
blik blik how are you??
Wanted to contribute to your accurate commentary. Here's just another way of looking at it. I agree that too many 'believers in Christ' fail to realize that work is required. Faith without works is dead. That work entails, as you said, recognizing, confessing, and correcting our sins. i.e. - repentance. To identify sin, we must know how God defines sin. His perfect Word tells us that sin is the (get this)
"transgression of the law".
If the Law is canceled then there's no longer any such thing as sin.
So if you could ask the average mainstream Christian how they determine, when on their knees seeking forgiveness from the Intercessor, exactly what is the sin that is present in their lives that day, I wonder what they would say? Because to me, my list of things I need to plead for mercy over is the myriad ways I violated the Ten Commandments. Did I lie to anyone at any time even if I was only fudging the truth a little? Did I say something about someone that was untrue or unsubstantiated gossip? Did I find myself eyeballing the heels that the lady at the next table was sporting and wishing I had me a pair? That is sin.
That's what I work to eradicate from my life, actions and character every day of my walk with the Lord, to be more like Him and to be transformed by the power of the Spirit of the Holy One, to slowly but surely be able to walk away from the temptations I face. Is our goal not to be more and more like Jesus? Did Jesus keep the Law? Did Jesus keep the Sabbath? Did Jesus keep the Feasts and other Holy Days? Yes.
pléroó: to make full, to complete
the greek word used for "fulfill". Christ did not, as He said in plain Aramaic, come to abolish the Law and He is not a liar.
He fulfilled it by completely living it to the T every day of His life in human form. The man Jesus was God in the flesh yes?
He is the Word, that was from the beginning, was with God and was God. One of the earliest appearances of the Word on earth, was at Sinai. God sent the Word then. Just not in the flesh. So the Word coming in the flesh was the completion of the work that the Word needed to accomplish. By coming in the flesh and becoming the final sacrifice, our Passover Lamb, He fulfilled and completed what the Father sent the Word to do. The Word is Torah.
The only thing besides our Messiah that was nailed to the cross is the 'letter' 'decree' 'ordinance' that the Law brought.
That is, the death penalty judgment. The decree of death that was on our heads is now covered by the blood and able to be forgiven.
If anyone thinks the Ten Commandments are canceled, then murder is okay now. If murder is a sin, so is not honoring the Sabbath of the Lord.
And for those who want to abbreviate the Law into a handy, easy to remember slogan or bumper sticker "love God love others" then I would submit that the way that God teaches us to love Him and love others is found in (get this) the TEN Commandments!
Wanna know how to love God? He tells us in 1-4.
Wanna know how to love others? He tells us in 5-10.
I have some other things to share with you Blik but will close here for now.
Be blessed.
Wanted to contribute to your accurate commentary. Here's just another way of looking at it. I agree that too many 'believers in Christ' fail to realize that work is required. Faith without works is dead. That work entails, as you said, recognizing, confessing, and correcting our sins. i.e. - repentance. To identify sin, we must know how God defines sin. His perfect Word tells us that sin is the (get this)
"transgression of the law".
If the Law is canceled then there's no longer any such thing as sin.
So if you could ask the average mainstream Christian how they determine, when on their knees seeking forgiveness from the Intercessor, exactly what is the sin that is present in their lives that day, I wonder what they would say? Because to me, my list of things I need to plead for mercy over is the myriad ways I violated the Ten Commandments. Did I lie to anyone at any time even if I was only fudging the truth a little? Did I say something about someone that was untrue or unsubstantiated gossip? Did I find myself eyeballing the heels that the lady at the next table was sporting and wishing I had me a pair? That is sin.
That's what I work to eradicate from my life, actions and character every day of my walk with the Lord, to be more like Him and to be transformed by the power of the Spirit of the Holy One, to slowly but surely be able to walk away from the temptations I face. Is our goal not to be more and more like Jesus? Did Jesus keep the Law? Did Jesus keep the Sabbath? Did Jesus keep the Feasts and other Holy Days? Yes.
pléroó: to make full, to complete
the greek word used for "fulfill". Christ did not, as He said in plain Aramaic, come to abolish the Law and He is not a liar.
He fulfilled it by completely living it to the T every day of His life in human form. The man Jesus was God in the flesh yes?
He is the Word, that was from the beginning, was with God and was God. One of the earliest appearances of the Word on earth, was at Sinai. God sent the Word then. Just not in the flesh. So the Word coming in the flesh was the completion of the work that the Word needed to accomplish. By coming in the flesh and becoming the final sacrifice, our Passover Lamb, He fulfilled and completed what the Father sent the Word to do. The Word is Torah.
The only thing besides our Messiah that was nailed to the cross is the 'letter' 'decree' 'ordinance' that the Law brought.
That is, the death penalty judgment. The decree of death that was on our heads is now covered by the blood and able to be forgiven.
If anyone thinks the Ten Commandments are canceled, then murder is okay now. If murder is a sin, so is not honoring the Sabbath of the Lord.
And for those who want to abbreviate the Law into a handy, easy to remember slogan or bumper sticker "love God love others" then I would submit that the way that God teaches us to love Him and love others is found in (get this) the TEN Commandments!
Wanna know how to love God? He tells us in 1-4.
Wanna know how to love others? He tells us in 5-10.
I have some other things to share with you Blik but will close here for now.
Be blessed.
L
what I said is clearly written as I described it and clearly twisted and fabrications inserted by you when you thought you had to respond
post 10
Jesus fulfilled the law. All of it.
The OT is the foundation of the Bible, but the NT is the fine edifice built upon it.
you are digging at the basement and damaging the building, or actually just confusing things
you responded with post 11
I think you are distorting God's word by misinterpreting the word fulfill.
God promised blood he gave on the altar for atonement and later salvation from our sin, and Jesus fulfilled that promise. By saying fulfill, it does not say cancelled, but now is in full force the opposite of cancelled.
The OT is more than the first chapters of a book of life, it gives an explanation of all Christ did. By snubbing your nose on that, it is not ignoring what is in the basement, it is ignoring Christ and the explanation of what He fulfilled.
CLEARLY, you have misrepresented what I said.
1. I said the OT is the foundation for the NT. YOU referred to a few chapters in Genesis as though I had said that when referred to the ENTIRE Old Testament
2. Fulfilled does not mean cancelled as you try to infer I said that; what is cancelled is the debt we owed for our sins to be forgiven AND above your personal objections, that means JESUS pleased God in all that He did, the law was never broken by Him and His blood alone atones for sin and no amount of law keeping or emphasis helps that along
3. you insult me and say I am snubbing my nose on the OT. AFTER I have said it is the foundation of the NT.
you do not deserve consideration here if you cannot even respond in a truthful manner to what others write. you CONSISTENTLY fabricate and distort what others say and LIE and say we have ignored Jesus while you lie about what is being said by others
post 10
Jesus fulfilled the law. All of it.
The OT is the foundation of the Bible, but the NT is the fine edifice built upon it.
you are digging at the basement and damaging the building, or actually just confusing things
you responded with post 11
I think you are distorting God's word by misinterpreting the word fulfill.
God promised blood he gave on the altar for atonement and later salvation from our sin, and Jesus fulfilled that promise. By saying fulfill, it does not say cancelled, but now is in full force the opposite of cancelled.
The OT is more than the first chapters of a book of life, it gives an explanation of all Christ did. By snubbing your nose on that, it is not ignoring what is in the basement, it is ignoring Christ and the explanation of what He fulfilled.
CLEARLY, you have misrepresented what I said.
1. I said the OT is the foundation for the NT. YOU referred to a few chapters in Genesis as though I had said that when referred to the ENTIRE Old Testament
2. Fulfilled does not mean cancelled as you try to infer I said that; what is cancelled is the debt we owed for our sins to be forgiven AND above your personal objections, that means JESUS pleased God in all that He did, the law was never broken by Him and His blood alone atones for sin and no amount of law keeping or emphasis helps that along
3. you insult me and say I am snubbing my nose on the OT. AFTER I have said it is the foundation of the NT.
you do not deserve consideration here if you cannot even respond in a truthful manner to what others write. you CONSISTENTLY fabricate and distort what others say and LIE and say we have ignored Jesus while you lie about what is being said by others