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B
I am sorry I so poorly phrased this statement, because my meaning has been misunderstood.
What I was trying to communicate is that Jesus will fight a great battle, both Him and the armies of Heaven (legions of angels). It is my understanding that Satan, his demons, and his followers (humans) will be present in the world at this time.
The last sentence of what I said is this:
I should have said, Angels fighting humans and demons has nothing to do with humans fighting humans. And it doesn't. Nowhere in scripture have I read that Christians will kill people in Revelation. I have only read that Jesus and the armies of heaven (which I believe are the legions of angels) will wage war.
And even if you could show me scripture proving that Christian humans will be commanded by God to fight Satan and his followers in Revelation, I still would not see the connection to the present day form of warfare, which has not been commanded by God in any way.
ok so what you are saying is that just because the God that use people to fight for Him in the Old testament, and in the new testament and in the future through prophecy given, will have His people in a peace mode in the last days, and we shouldn't defend our own. and that this God who inspired one of His inspired writers of His Word, to say
1ti 5:8But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
so we are to give them food and shelter so that they might have life, and provide for others specially those of our own house, but according to the gospel of beefy if someone wants to come in our house and kill all in my house, i am just to watch and let him , or wait beefy, would I be a better Christian in your eyes if I even jumped in there with him and helped him kill my own. Or could it be even though it may not be in the context of 1 timothy that to provide could mean to provide safety, for those specially in our house. or does God say God forbid that we protect those in His House. if Abraham was counted righteous , but yet he defended His House and when Lot got captured by a group of people, abraham went and started a war with these people and took back what was his.
Ge 14:12And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.Ge 14:13And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.Ge 14:14And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.Ge 14:15And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.Ge 14:16And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
or is it according to beefy that "thou shalt not kill" means everyone that has ever taken a life even in war times and all these great heros both men and women that are protecting the freedom of people on foreign soil TODAY, are commmitting sin and becoming murders in the eyes of beefy??????? oh oh and I guess David displeased God when he slew Goliath . and then Jesus said go buy swords because I will fight your battles and so we should ever be consider a conquerer because according to beefy there is never a time we should fight, we should just let satan and his demons, his ministers just have their way, even if they want to kill us, just let them. and we can protect our own by just being good , we are supposed to be good But Jesus, when tested if He would heal on the sabbath which was against the law according to people like beefy, asked is it not good to do good on the sabbath.
so beefy is it not good to provide for those that need things to abstain life even up to protecting their life from evil people?????????????
God from the old testament said
Ex 14:14The LORD shall FIGHT for you, and ye shall hold your peace.
But used men such as moses, david, Abraham and so on and so on to fight battles and the enemy.
1ti 5:8But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
so we are to give them food and shelter so that they might have life, and provide for others specially those of our own house, but according to the gospel of beefy if someone wants to come in our house and kill all in my house, i am just to watch and let him , or wait beefy, would I be a better Christian in your eyes if I even jumped in there with him and helped him kill my own. Or could it be even though it may not be in the context of 1 timothy that to provide could mean to provide safety, for those specially in our house. or does God say God forbid that we protect those in His House. if Abraham was counted righteous , but yet he defended His House and when Lot got captured by a group of people, abraham went and started a war with these people and took back what was his.
Ge 14:12And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.Ge 14:13And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.Ge 14:14And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.Ge 14:15And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.Ge 14:16And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
or is it according to beefy that "thou shalt not kill" means everyone that has ever taken a life even in war times and all these great heros both men and women that are protecting the freedom of people on foreign soil TODAY, are commmitting sin and becoming murders in the eyes of beefy??????? oh oh and I guess David displeased God when he slew Goliath . and then Jesus said go buy swords because I will fight your battles and so we should ever be consider a conquerer because according to beefy there is never a time we should fight, we should just let satan and his demons, his ministers just have their way, even if they want to kill us, just let them. and we can protect our own by just being good , we are supposed to be good But Jesus, when tested if He would heal on the sabbath which was against the law according to people like beefy, asked is it not good to do good on the sabbath.
so beefy is it not good to provide for those that need things to abstain life even up to protecting their life from evil people?????????????
God from the old testament said
Ex 14:14The LORD shall FIGHT for you, and ye shall hold your peace.
But used men such as moses, david, Abraham and so on and so on to fight battles and the enemy.
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B
That is a monstrous lie and you know it. Non-violence does not mean non-action. Pacifism does not mean Passivism. They are quite different terms, really.
If someone really tried to come into my house and try to kill my family I would probably tackle him and disarm him. If I couldn't do that, you know that I would not let that man get to my family without getting through me first. If I could not stop the man, I would use my body as a human sheild for my loved ones. Even shooting the man in a non-lethal area of the body would keep him from killing my loved ones. That doesn't mean that I would kill him. No, I would not kill him at all. After all, Jesus clearly got physical when he drove the men out of the temple, but he never killed anyone.
As far as Jesus driving out the men in the temple with a whip, that is a poor comparison to war and the killing of other people. Jesus was certainly angry, and rightly so. He got physical and he did forcefully chase those men out of His Father's temple.
As far as Jesus actually injuring or hurting others with the whip, there is no mention.
Let me think of a scenario in which I would get physical like Jesus did, but certainly not kill anyone:
If I came across someone who was trying to rape a young girl, aiming to rape or molest her, I am certain that I would get down on the ground and do my best to pull him off of her, however forcefully. I may get beat up by the man for doing so, but at least the girl would then have the time she needed to escape. And I'm certain she would high-tail it out of there as soon as the man turned his attention to me.
I think that is a good scenario to use force, but certainly not kill anyone. I think Jesus would do the same thing in that particular scenario. What do you think? Surely Jesus would not stand by and watch the young girl get raped?
Do you really think Jesus would just stand by and let others be raped and killed? Do you honestly think that is what non-violence represents? Do you really think that Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr., who never killed anyone, just stood on the sidelines in the face of injustice, and let it happen?
And anther thing. You are aware that members of the early church for the first 3 centuries of Christianity were burned at the stake, along with your families? Do you think that they were wrong for not killing their enemies in defense of their families?
Do you think the diciples were wrong when they were martyred for Jesus? Do you think that Peter was wrong when he cried out "Father forgive them!" just before he let them kill him?
This really shouldn't even be an issue. Look at the passage in context. Jesus commanded his disciples not to retaliate for a slap on the face, an insulting, stinging attack that was not life threatening. He did not command his followers to stand around and let themselves and their families be murdered.
B
But He also taught to love your enemies, and to do good to those who hate you. Now you can't show love to your enemies by killing them, now can you? And killing your enemy isn't doing him any good, now is it? The only thing one does by killing the enemy is sending them to Hell, and that's not doing them any good at all.
Except that this is exactly what His followers did. The twelve diciples and the early church for nearly 300 years let themselves and their families be murdered. They overcame evil with good, they didn't return killing for more killing. They didn't return evil for evil.
Here is how the diciples of Christ died. All of them refused to defend themselves, and Peter even cried out "Father forgive them!" as he died. You are to follow their example, as they followed the example of Christ.
- Simon Peter was crucified upside down.
- Philip was also crucified upside down.
- Batholomew was flayed alive and then crucified upside down.
- Andrew was crucified on an X-shaped cross.
- James (son of Zebedee) was executed by sword.
- James (son of Alphaeus) was crucified and the body sawed to pieces.
- John died of natural causes.
- Matthew was possibly murdered.
- Simon the Canaanite was executed by saw.
- Judas Thomas was executed by spear.
- Judas Iscariot hanged himself.
- The details of the death of Jude (Thaddaeus) are unknown.
And the early church (the first 300 years after Christ's death) numbered in the hundreds of thousands, most of which were burned at the stake by the Romans, along with their familes. This means that their wives and children were also burned at the stake along with them. They didn't defend them violently. This is what they were taught, by Jesus' own original diciples. And if anyone knew how to follow Jesus' commands, surely His own diciples did!
Here are some of their qoutes:
""We who formerly murdered one another now refrain from making war even upon our enemies." Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.176.
"I do not wish to be a king. I am not anxious to be rich. I decline military command". Tatian (c. 160, E), 2.69.
"These people [i.e. the Christians] formed their swords and war-lances into plowshares...so now they are unaccustomed to fighting. When they are struck, they offer also the other cheek." Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.512.
"Let our seals be either a dove, a fish, or a ship....We are not to draw an outline of ... a sword or a bow, since we follow peace." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.286.
"The Christian does no harm even to his enemy." Tertullian
"Is it lawful to make an occupation of the sword when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword will perish by the sword? Will the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law?" Tertullian
"So the more anyone excels in godliness, the more effective the help is that he renders to kings. This is a greater help than what is given by soldiers who go forth to fight and kill as many of the enemy as they can." Origen
"Our prayers defeat all demons who stir up war. . . Accordingly, in this way, we are much more helpful to the kings than those who go into the field to fight for them." Origen
"And murder - which is admitted to be a crime in the case of an individual - is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not because they are guiltless- but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale!" Cyprian
"Why would [the just man] carry on war and mix himself with the passions of others when his mind is engaged in perpetual peace with men?" Lactantius
"A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate who wears the purple must resign or be rejected. If an applicant or a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected." recorded by Hyppolytus.
And who taught the early church to follow Jesus in this nonviolent manner? It was Jesus' very own twelve diciples! And if anyone knew how to follow the commands of Christ, surely the twelve diciples did.
You may be asking yourself, why did they not defend themselves? Because they did not fear death. The were fearless. For death is gain, my friend. It means that you will enter paradise with Jesus. Why fear death? Why fight death?
"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Phillipians 1:21
The Bible says to imitate the life of Christ here on earth, and Christ never killed those who threatened His safety and the safety of His disciples. They ended up dead too.
Are you going to imitate Jesus or not?
"Imitate me as I imitate Christ." 1 Corinthians 1:11
Jesus' diciples did it, the early church did it. And when they did it, Christianity spread like wildfire throughout the world. It spread more then than at any point in history.
If other people want to send us home to be with the Father, then we should not fear them, for to be with the Father is our heart's desire. Fear God, not man.
"And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Luke 12:4-5
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28
If loving your enemies isn't really an issue, how come Christians refused to kill their enemies for nearly 300 years? The Christians only changed their stance when they gained political power. This worldly power corrupted the commands of Jesus, and the Christians began to follow the "Just War" theory presented by Saint Augustine.
Jesus said that if you wish to be His diciples, a Christian, then you must love your enemy, and do good to those who hate you, and bless those who curse you.
The terrorists are your enemy. Jesus says Love your enemy. Love the terrorists.
The terrorists hate you. Jesus says Do good to those who hate you. Do good to the terrorists.
The terrorists curse you. Jesus says bless those who curse you. Bless the terrorists. Tell them "God bless you."
In this way you will be a child of the most High God, for he is kind to the unthankful and the evil. You should be kind unto the evil as well.
"But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." Luke 6:35
God bless.
Except that this is exactly what His followers did. The twelve diciples and the early church for nearly 300 years let themselves and their families be murdered. They overcame evil with good, they didn't return killing for more killing. They didn't return evil for evil.
Here is how the diciples of Christ died. All of them refused to defend themselves, and Peter even cried out "Father forgive them!" as he died. You are to follow their example, as they followed the example of Christ.
- Simon Peter was crucified upside down.
- Philip was also crucified upside down.
- Batholomew was flayed alive and then crucified upside down.
- Andrew was crucified on an X-shaped cross.
- James (son of Zebedee) was executed by sword.
- James (son of Alphaeus) was crucified and the body sawed to pieces.
- John died of natural causes.
- Matthew was possibly murdered.
- Simon the Canaanite was executed by saw.
- Judas Thomas was executed by spear.
- Judas Iscariot hanged himself.
- The details of the death of Jude (Thaddaeus) are unknown.
And the early church (the first 300 years after Christ's death) numbered in the hundreds of thousands, most of which were burned at the stake by the Romans, along with their familes. This means that their wives and children were also burned at the stake along with them. They didn't defend them violently. This is what they were taught, by Jesus' own original diciples. And if anyone knew how to follow Jesus' commands, surely His own diciples did!
Here are some of their qoutes:
""We who formerly murdered one another now refrain from making war even upon our enemies." Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.176.
"I do not wish to be a king. I am not anxious to be rich. I decline military command". Tatian (c. 160, E), 2.69.
"These people [i.e. the Christians] formed their swords and war-lances into plowshares...so now they are unaccustomed to fighting. When they are struck, they offer also the other cheek." Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.512.
"Let our seals be either a dove, a fish, or a ship....We are not to draw an outline of ... a sword or a bow, since we follow peace." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.286.
"The Christian does no harm even to his enemy." Tertullian
"Is it lawful to make an occupation of the sword when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword will perish by the sword? Will the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law?" Tertullian
"So the more anyone excels in godliness, the more effective the help is that he renders to kings. This is a greater help than what is given by soldiers who go forth to fight and kill as many of the enemy as they can." Origen
"Our prayers defeat all demons who stir up war. . . Accordingly, in this way, we are much more helpful to the kings than those who go into the field to fight for them." Origen
"And murder - which is admitted to be a crime in the case of an individual - is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not because they are guiltless- but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale!" Cyprian
"Why would [the just man] carry on war and mix himself with the passions of others when his mind is engaged in perpetual peace with men?" Lactantius
"A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate who wears the purple must resign or be rejected. If an applicant or a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected." recorded by Hyppolytus.
And who taught the early church to follow Jesus in this nonviolent manner? It was Jesus' very own twelve diciples! And if anyone knew how to follow the commands of Christ, surely the twelve diciples did.
You may be asking yourself, why did they not defend themselves? Because they did not fear death. The were fearless. For death is gain, my friend. It means that you will enter paradise with Jesus. Why fear death? Why fight death?
"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Phillipians 1:21
The Bible says to imitate the life of Christ here on earth, and Christ never killed those who threatened His safety and the safety of His disciples. They ended up dead too.
Are you going to imitate Jesus or not?
"Imitate me as I imitate Christ." 1 Corinthians 1:11
Jesus' diciples did it, the early church did it. And when they did it, Christianity spread like wildfire throughout the world. It spread more then than at any point in history.
If other people want to send us home to be with the Father, then we should not fear them, for to be with the Father is our heart's desire. Fear God, not man.
"And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Luke 12:4-5
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28
If loving your enemies isn't really an issue, how come Christians refused to kill their enemies for nearly 300 years? The Christians only changed their stance when they gained political power. This worldly power corrupted the commands of Jesus, and the Christians began to follow the "Just War" theory presented by Saint Augustine.
Jesus said that if you wish to be His diciples, a Christian, then you must love your enemy, and do good to those who hate you, and bless those who curse you.
The terrorists are your enemy. Jesus says Love your enemy. Love the terrorists.
The terrorists hate you. Jesus says Do good to those who hate you. Do good to the terrorists.
The terrorists curse you. Jesus says bless those who curse you. Bless the terrorists. Tell them "God bless you."
In this way you will be a child of the most High God, for he is kind to the unthankful and the evil. You should be kind unto the evil as well.
"But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." Luke 6:35
God bless.
So maybe we could agree that there is no sat situation in any given situation, that some may handle the situation they are faced with different than someone else that is faced with the same situation, and neither would be wrong, And Beefy I don't recall using Jesus as He whipped some out of the temple as an example, But rather if Jesus hadn't healed on the sabbath, that would have been ok and it was ok that He did heal on the Sabbath, as there maybe several ok's with any situation that we are faced with.
and that we really shoudn't judge a person, just cause they reacted different to a situation than we think we would had.
and that we really shoudn't judge a person, just cause they reacted different to a situation than we think we would had.
B
You know what? I just realized that tackling the man would probably not help the situation. I would only enrage him, and I would not want to worsen the situation. And when I mentioned shooting the man in a non-lethal area of the body, I was only stating that that would be a better thing to do than killing him. That doesn't mean that it would be a Christ-like thing to do. After all, if women can defend themselves from rape nonviolently, surely I can defend my family nonviolently.
Here is a true story from a book I plan to read, called The Universe Bends Toward Justice, by Angie O' Gorman:
"
Rather than destruction of enemies, the Christian ethic calls for their conversion and counts on enough love on my part to facilitate the process….
I was awakened late one night several years ago by a man kicking open the door to my bedroom. The house was empty. The phone was downstairs. He was somewhat verbally abusive as he walked over to my bed. I could not find his eyes in the darkness but could see the outline of his form. As I lay there, felling a fear and vulnerability I had never before experienced, several thoughts ran through my head – all in a matter of seconds. The first was the uselessness of screaming. The second was the fallacy of having a gun hidden under your pillow. Somehow I could not imagine this man standing patiently while I reached under my pillow for my gun. the third thought, I believe, saved my life. I realized with a certain clarity that either he and I made it through this situation safely – together- or we would both be damaged. Our safety was connected. If he raped me he would be hurt as well. If he went to prison, the damage would be greater. That thought disarmed me. It freed me from my own desire to lash out and at the same time from my paralysis. It did not free me from the feelings of fear but from fear’s control over my ability to respond. I found myself acting out of concern for both my own safety which caused me to react with a certain firmness but with surprisingly little hostility in my voice.
I asked him what time it was. He answered. That was a good sign. I commented that his watch and the clock on my night table had differnt times. His said 2:30, mine said 2:45. I had just set mine. I hope his watch wasn’t broken. When the atmosphere began to calm a little I asked him how he had gotten into the house. He’d broken through the glass in the back door. I told him that presented me with a problem as I did not have the money to buy new glass. He talked about some financial difficlties of his own. We talked until we were no longer strangers and I felt it was safe to ask him to leave. He didn’t want to; said he had no place to go. Knowing I did not have the physical power to force him out I told him firmly but respectfully, as equal to equal, I would give him a clean set of sheets but he would have to make his own bed downstairs. He went downstairs and I sat up in bed, wide awake and shaking for the rest of the night. The next morning we ate breakfast together and he left.
Several things happened that night. I allowed someone who I was afraid of to become human to me and as a result I reacted in a surprisingly human way to him. That caught him off guard. Apparently his scenario had not included a social sense of balance. By that time the vibes were all wrong for violence. Whatever had been motivating him was sidetracked and he changed his mind.
Through the effects of prayer, meditation, training and the experience of lesser kinds of assault, I had been able to allow what I call a context for conversion to emerge.*"
Crazy story, right? I can only imagine different ways I can "throw off the vibe for violence" with my own actions. I will post more stories on nonviolence and personal assault soon.
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