Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?

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homwardbound

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Oct 24, 2012
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Those that are wrong in not worshipping correctly would be subjected to whatever God sets forth as punishment, or maybe the person truly believes that his way of thinking is correct and God feels that he was doing what he thought to be right, and I would think there would be no punishment, but I'm not God. Paul believed that he was doing the will of God by persecuting Christians, so he done it out of ignorance, so I would think the same for this issue, that God would understand and not do anything to the person who is doing this out of ignorance. Worshipping God is a serious duty that is to be done correctly.
Yes God is the creator and I am the responder you too right, as i see this you are covering every track, every precept and wanting to Know Father and I commend you on this, and you shall, know the whole truth that sets you free not to take God for granted, rather appreciate God so much one just wants to do nothing but what God wants of them right?

The fulfillment of the Law Brother is what? All Law is what after boiling it all down? You already have it don't you, you have said it over and over again from the heart!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Motive Friend motive is what it boils down to Motive, the reason one does what one does or not does, and Father commends us on it revealed to us by the Holy Spirit of truth from Father and Son, and we see the stress we had put to rest, for we are accepted in the beloved by belief in Father's finished work through Son, so simple it has become difficult, becasuse man again has gotten in the way of this amazing mystery of the Gospel
 

homwardbound

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Oct 24, 2012
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Hope your day is a wonderful day. Please read post 877.
Thanks, have and praise you for wanting to know Father as many here do. Thank you for the love of Father you are showing, it means a lot to become free in Father, that is what Father did poured out himself through Son to us, in redemption for us, so he could retrieve and give us new life in his Spirit, where today is the only way Father can be worshiped
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
 

homwardbound

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Oct 24, 2012
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Shava, glad to meet you and welcome here love to you by God first and foremost, and then from me as i see from God he loved me first along with all people, so in response as being nothing more than the creation I love back to all just as deep, and deeper and deeper each day I learn this;God is LOVE

1 John 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Ephesians 3:15 of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Ephesians 3:16 that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Ephesians 3:17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Ephesians 3:18 may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Ephesians 3:19 and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
 
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Thanks, have and praise you for wanting to know Father as many here do. Thank you for the love of Father you are showing, it means a lot to become free in Father, that is what Father did poured out himself through Son to us, in redemption for us, so he could retrieve and give us new life in his Spirit, where today is the only way Father can be worshiped
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Something funny!

By the moment I was about to public next post, you already got this, but I haven´t seen it before I had published mine... So we were directed by the same Spirit. Let´s the Lord Jesus be praised along with OUR Almighthy Heavenly FATHER.
 
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Shava, glad to meet you and welcome here love to you by God first and foremost, and then from me as i see from God he loved me first along with all people, so in response as being nothing more than the creation I love back to all just as deep, and deeper and deeper each day I learn this;God is LOVE

1 John 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Ephesians 3:15 of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Ephesians 3:16 that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Ephesians 3:17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Ephesians 3:18 may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Ephesians 3:19 and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Homewardbound I am so grateful for you as we travel down the road of life that we can depend on each other to help each other to become more mature spiritually. Again, thank you.
 
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But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Jn 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and
ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Jn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me,
the hour cometh, when ye shall
neither in this mountain, [PLACE]
nor yet at Jerusalem,
worship the Father. [PLACE]
Jn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation [Jesus] is OF the Jews.

Jn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the
true [Truthful] worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit [PLACE] and in truth:
for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him
must worship him in spirit [PLACE]
and in truth.

Why was this sinful woman more literate that the PURPOSE DRIVEN CULTS with their WORSHIP SPECTACLES?

Jn 4:25 The woman saith unto him,
I know that Messias cometh,
which is called Christ: when he is come,
he will TELL us all things.

Anagello bring tood tidings, report, tell of person doing
but the sense of Lat. lego, to read, only occurs in compds., analegomai, epilegomai.

Jesus was making more certain the Prophecies of Christ where the REST of Christ is defined both inclusively and exclusively.Paul also READS from the Prophets and the always-Pagan error

Jn 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Jesus SPOKE words, or to recite what is written, labe to biblion kai lege

Saying,
legōn
I will
DECLAREapagg-ellō A. of a messenger, bring tidings, report, of a speaker or writer, report, relate
.....thy name unto my brethren,
in the midst of the church [ekklesia or synagogue]
.....will I sing praise (hymn) unto THE. Heb 2:12

FIRST: DECLARE in Greek is:


Apagello (g518) ap-ang-el'-lo; from 575 and the base of 32; to announce: - bring word (again), declare, report, shew (again), tell.
Aggelos (g32) ang'-el-os; from aggello, [prob. der. from 71; comp. 34] (to bring tidings); a messenger; esp. an "angel"; by impl. a pastor: - angel, messenger

SECOND: Jesus grieves out a hymn.
Apalgeo (g524) ap-alg-eh'-o; from 575 and algeo (to SMART); to GRIEVE out, i.e. becomeAPATHETIC: - be past feeling

Because Paul commanded that we SPEAK the hymns and Speak is opposite to ODE:

Humn-eō , descant upon, in song or speech, ell over and over again, harp upon, repeat, recite,
ton nomon humnein recite the form of the law, Id.Lg.871a

The command to SPEAK that which is written for our learning is the opposite of SING (tunefully) that which brother or sister clergy singers WROTE. Paul knew what a school boy would know that "to sing the hallel hymns daily is idolatry." We STUDENTS as DISCIPLES like to have Jesus speak for Himself.

humnos , ho, A. hymn, ode, in praise of gods or heroes (“kai ti ēn eidos ōdēs eukhai pros theous, onoma de humnoi epekalounto Pl.Lg.700b;
Plat. Laws 700b one class of song was that of prayers to the gods, which bore the name of “hymns

1 i.e., solemn chants sung to the “cithara” or lyre. “Dithyrambs” were choral odes to Dionysus; “paeans” were mostly hymns of praise to Apollo. [Abaddon, Apollyon: the name of the SERVICE of the Levites or soothsayers] Plat. Laws 936c There shall be no beggar in our State; and if anyone attempts to beg, and to collect a livelihood by ceaseless [making Poieo meter, hymns] prayers, the market-stewards shall expel him from the market, and the Board of city-stewards from the city, and from any other district he shall be driven across the border by the country-stewards, to the end that the land may be wholly purged of such a creature. If a slave, male or female, do any injury to another man's goods,

The MEN whom Jesus called Children or BOYS (Isaiah 3) PIPED hoping to make Jesus and others LAMENT and DANCE as they were initiated into the always-gay priesthoods.

If you search for HUMNESANTES it is the Greek: humnōd-eō , A.sing a hymn or song of praise, Pl.Lg.682a, LXX 1 Ch. 25.6: generally, sing,thrēnonA.Ag.990 (lyr.). II. = khrēsmōdeō, E.Ion6; cf. “humnōdia2.. humnos fin.]

Plat. Laws 682a
Indeed, these verses of his, as well as those he utters concerning the Cyclopes, are in a kind of unison with the voices of both God and Nature. For being divinely inspired in its chanting, the poetic tribe, with the aid of Graces and Muses [sorcers Rev 18], often grasps the truth of history.

thrēnos , ho, (threomai) 2. complaint, sad strain. th. houmos for me, lamentations, “thrēnōn ōdasS.El.88

Luke 7:32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned [thrēn-eō ], to you, and ye have not wept.
 
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homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Homewardbound I am so grateful for you as we travel down the road of life that we can depend on each other to help each other to become more mature spiritually. Again, thank you.
I think that is what it is all about, to help, and not fight as if I am right or you are right. when only God is and God plainly as I see just loves us all, otherwise I do not see why Christ went to the cross for us while we were yet in unbelief of his unfathomable love that he has actually shown from day one and had Mercy on Adam and Eve, I personally think this " to Lucifer's' Surprise" i think Lucifer thought they would surely die right then and there and is what Lucifer as I see wanted that exactly, and that is not what took place and heard Father speak of the Christ for the reconciliation of the world to all people and the first killing Satan caused was Abel through Cain's emotional stinking thinking, as Father warned Cain about. Then as time went on there were 12 tribes and not knowing when the Christ will arise and from which tribe he would arise, was in thought that it had to be from the Levite tribe and Christ came from the tribe of Judah, Satan fooled and went to cuase the death of Christ not knowing that Christ would rise and save his people, nor knowledge of him by the resurrection Satan was judged and taken away the keys from him, stripped Satan naked, defeated.
And all Satan has today is to use fear to try and control us into sinful behavior captivity, in unredeemed flesh. by keeping one focused on whether they sin or not, and thus they still sin by this focus of i got to not sin, and be righteous before God, when no flesh can be this.
Get it renew thy mind set of flesh to Spirit of God it is done by God through Son for us at the cross it is finished, so we can walk anew, in the new covenant where all sins are behind his back never to see again

Hebrews 10:17 and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Micah 7:19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.
 
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Then as time went on there were 12 tribes and not knowing when the Christ will arise and from which tribe he would arise, was in thought that it had to be from the Levite tribe and Christ came from the tribe of Judah, Satan fooled and went to cuase the death of Christ not knowing that Christ would rise and save his people,
Isn't it strange that the AUTHORITY for Instrumental Music (noise) comes from the Jacob-cursed and God-abandoned Levites when the godly Hebrews waited upon Shiloh. They waited in the synagogues where music was outlawed and would be just as adult as the musical mocking of Jesus while He died? The Hebrews KNEW but just didn't care.

Gen. 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said,
Gather yourselves together,
that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
Gen. 49:2 Gather yourselves together,
and hear, ye sons of Jacob;
and hearken unto Israel your father.
Gen. 49:3 Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength,
the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:
Gen. 49:4 Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel;
because thou wentest up to thy father’s bed;
then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.
Defiled is g2490 translated "play the flute, steal people's inheritance, pollute or prostitute.

Gen. 49:5 Simeon and Levi are brethren;
instruments (h3617 weapon, psaltery)
of cruelty are in their habitations.
(stabbing, dig through furnace, for burning
Bellor fight, carry on war,
Gen. 49:6 O my soul,
come not thou into their secret;
unto their assembly,
mine honour,
be not thou united:
for in their anger they slew a man,
and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.
H6951 qâhâl kaw-hawl From H6950 ; assemblage (usually concretely):—assembly, company,
congregation, multitude.
Consilior to take counsel, to consult,
h5475 Sod h3245 session, deliberaton, secret.
h3519 Kabod the glory or darkness of the temple
Coitus come A. Abstr., a coming or meeting together, an assembling:
A. A uniting, joining together, combination

Gen. 49:7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel:
I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.

Divido I. To force asunder, part, separate, divide (very freq. and class.; cf.: distribuo, dispertio
findo, scindo, dirimo, divello, separo, sejungo, segrego, secerno).


1 Chron 25:1 MOREOVER David and the Commanders of the Army separated to the
service [Abadoh same as Abaddon worship of the starry host]
of the sons of Asaph
, and of Heman,
and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy [soothsay-sorcery] with harps, with psalteries,
and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was:

H623 ’âsâph aw-sawf' From H622 ; collector; Asaph, the name of three Israelites, and of the family of the first:—Asaph.
H622 ’âsaph aw-saf' A primitive root; to gather for any purpose; hence to receive, take away, that is, remove (destroy, leave behind, put up, restore, etc.):—assemble, bring, consume, destroy, fetch, gather (in, together, up again), X generally, get (him), lose, put all together, receive, recover [another from leprosy], (be) rereward, X surely, take (away, into, up), X utterly, withdraw.

Seperate LATIN:
sē-cerno , crēvi, crētum, 3 (old I.inf. secernier, Lucr. 3, 263), v. a. I. Lit., to put apart, to sunder, sever, separate Juppiterilla piae secrevit litoragenti,” hath set apart for the pious race, Hor. Epod. 16, 63:
C. To set aside, reject: “cum reus frugalissimum quemque secerneret,” Cic. Att. 1, 16, 3
2. That is removed from acquaintance (cf. abditus), hidden, concealed, secret: secreta ducis pectora,” Mart. 5, 5, 4: “secretas advocat artes,” Ov. M. 7, 138:
ars,Petr. 3: litterae (withfamiliares),” Quint. 1, 1, 29:
carmina (the Sibylline odes),Luc. 1, 599:

LIBERTY means that Jesus died to give ME liberty from Corrupters of the word meaning "selling learning at wholesale" or adultery.
LIBERTY gives me REST from the laded burden and burden laders: these were the songs of the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites composed to SILENCE the Word of God.
LIBERTY gives me liberty from the LAW of preaching and paying, the LAW of listening to self-speak, the LAW of laying by in store and the LIBERTY of not supporting religious STAFF which included the Levite Noise makers which is THE Greek definition of a PARASITE.

LIBERTY peels the Albatros off our neck and asks only what Christ commanded in the wilderness; that we assemble to LISTEN to the Word READ and meditate in the heart.

I'm not sure why the Musical Performers think that THEY have the right to suck up all of the giving attention to (worship) when it is impossible for ME to do anything but GIVE ATTENTION them them as they claim to be able TO LEAD YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD.

 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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LIBERTY gives me REST from the laded burden and burden laders: these were the songs of the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites composed to SILENCE the Word of God.

i think you really ought to study and pray about just who David was and how the scriptures represent him.

you are wasting a lot of effort typing and copy-pasting lies & deceit that no one on this entire website agrees with. Christian after Christian has stopped by this thread and clearly and soundly refuted through scripture almost everything you've said. i think this energy is better spent examining your own heart.

you are preaching another gospel, and no one here receives it. i hope one day you will allow your heart to receive the true peace & rest that Christ has wrought, He offers it to you. He wants to save you from all this. your pride isn't worth clinging to; this is a pathway to death.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Saying, legōn
I will
DECLAREapagg-ellōA. of a messenger, bring tidings, report, of a speaker or writer, report, relate
.....thy name unto my brethren,
in the midst of the church [ekklesia or synagogue]
.....will I sing praise (hymn) unto THE. Heb 2:12

FIRST: DECLARE in Greek is:


Apagello (g518) ap-ang-el'-lo; from 575 and the base of 32; to announce: - bring word (again), declare, report, shew (again), tell.
Aggelos (g32) ang'-el-os; from aggello, [prob. der. from 71; comp. 34] (to bring tidings); a messenger; esp. an "angel"; by impl. a pastor: - angel, messenger

SECOND: Jesus grieves out a hymn.
Apalgeo (g524) ap-alg-eh'-o; from 575 and algeo (to SMART); to GRIEVE out, i.e. becomeAPATHETIC: - be past feeling

Because Paul commanded that we SPEAK the hymns and Speak is opposite to ODE:

Humn-eō , descant upon, in song or speech, ell over and over again, harp upon, repeat, recite,
ton nomon humnein recite the form of the law, Id.Lg.871a
Where do you get this part about "Apalgeo (g524) " from? What does that have to do with "in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee", where the following word is translated as 'sing'- humneso -- a grammatical form of the following word.
Strong's #5214:
humneo (pronounced hoom-neh'-o)
from 5215; to hymn, i.e. sing a religious ode; by implication, to celebrate (God) in song:--sing a hymn (praise unto).Thayer's Greek Lexicon:̔́humneō1) to sing the praise of, sing hymns to2) to sing a hymn, to sing2a) singing of paschal hymns these were Psalms 113 - 118 and 136, which the Jews called the "great Hallel"Part of Speech: verbRelation: from G5215Citing in TDNT: 8:489, 1225



Did you just try to trick everyone into thinking that other Greek word was in the text, hoping they wouldn't bother to look it up, or did your mind go off onto some tangent without telling us where you were going?

Because Paul commanded that we SPEAK the hymns and Speak is opposite to ODE:


No it doesn't. You obviously do not know what the word 'opposite' means. Up is the opposite of down. Speak is not the opposite of ode.

Banana is not the opposite of strawberry. Sugar is not the opposite of television.

And sing is not the opposite of speak. You could say, "Don't sing" is the opposite of "sing". You could say that 'no ode' is the opposite of 'ode.'

We still have the author of Hebrews attributing singing to Jesus.

Matthew still tells us that Jesus and the apostles sang after the last supper.

There is still this:
Romans 15:9
And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

And James tells the merry among the church to sing songs.

So if you want to make singing effeminate or evil, you are just plain wrong. You'd be slandering our Lord, too.

I've got an idea. Why don't you submit yourself to God, and just believe His word. Let go of this theory that you seem to hold more important than scripture-- since you use it to twist scripture-- that instruments, singing, etc. are evil-- and, in prayer, give it up to the Lord and surrender. Then read His word with a receptive heart?



 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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KSublett wrote,
1 Chron 25:1 MOREOVER David and the Commanders of the Army separated to the
service [Abadoh same as Abaddon worship of the starry host] of the sons of Asaph
, and of Heman,
I'm not sure where you make the connection about Abaddon being the worship of the stary host. I do know that you have proven yourself to be an unreliable source for language scholarship. This is the kind of play with language that might be able to fool someone who doesn't have any experience with foreign languages, linguistics, etc. who is a bit gullible. But it is not the way to read the text.

Finding a Hebrew word here that is the same as or related to another Hebrew word used in this other text here, used in a negative context, and trying to read all the negative ideas from that context into this other context.... that can lead to some really junk interpretations, as you've illustrated.

A sniper assassinating a head of state could say, "Give me another bullet."

A father could say to a child "Give me that video game."

Both sentences use 'give.' The father in the second example is not planning an assasination attempt on his son. If I treated English like you treated Hebrew, I'd probably argue for that idea.


I'll also tell you what I suspect is going on. I suspect most people aren't reading your long posts for the most parts to really follow them because.

1) You do not make it clear what you are trying to say by these quotes.
2) Other people don't use lexicons the way you do (wrongly tying words together that you think are connected), which makes it harder to follow you.
3) You write posts slandering OT saints, so people see you aren't saying something helpful and valuable.

I've taken the time to try to understand a post here and there from you and responded. A few other people respond to points here and there. I think I've seen your posts on other forums or another forum somewhere, because your approach to scripture, and reality, is very unique.

But I suspect most of your posts go unread after people get a feel for the type of stuff you post. Who wants to read a bunch of disjointed Greek definitions when the point of posting them isn't clear, anyway?

Other posters can chime in and comment on whether they read these posts.
 
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Banana is not the opposite of strawberry. Sugar is not the opposite of television.
And sing is not the opposite of speak. You could say, "Don't sing" is the opposite of "sing". You could say that 'no ode' is the opposite of 'ode.'

We still have the author of Hebrews attributing singing to Jesus.

Matthew still tells us that Jesus and the apostles sang after the last supper.
Speak is spelled S.P.E.A.K and Sing is spelled S.I.N.G. People don't come knowing how to sing: "sing" is a natural crying out in ELEVATED pitch caused by fear. If you listen to even modern Jewish or Arabic singing it is NOT tuneful: their intent is to RECITE and Epic which was the Biblical design or teaching.

-Lego Count, recount, tell over, say, speak, 8. at the beginning of letters or documents, maintain as a thesis, Sophron of sound mind. having control over the sensual desires, temperate, self-controlled, chaste, reasonable comparison., esp. in the theatre,

Singing the words of a male god was considered obscene.

-LOGOS Opposite to epithumia
A. desire, yearning, longing after a thing, desire of or for it, Theaomai :--gaze at, behold, mostly with a sense of wonder, 3. view as spectators

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ccffff, colspan: 2"]-LOGOS Opposite Poiein to excite passion, Arist.Rh.1418a12; V. Rhet., emotional style or treatment, to sphodron kai enthousiastikon p. Longin.8.1; “pathos poieinArist. Rh.1418a12; “[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ccffff"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffcc"]Poiein something you create: works of art, bring into existence, schemes, of poets, compose, write,4. after Hom., of
Poets, compose, write, p. dithurambon, epea, Hdt.1.23, 4.14; “p. theogoniēn HellēsiId.2.53; p. Phaidran, Saturous, Ar.Th.153, 157; p. kōmōdian, tragōdian, etc., Pl.Smp.223d; “palinōdianIsoc.10.64, Pl.Phdr.243b, etc.;

b. represent in poetry, c. describe in verse,theon en epesinPl.R.379a; epoiēsa muthoustous Aisōpou put them into verse, Id.Phd. 61b; “muthonLycurg.100. [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ccffff, colspan: 2"]-LOGOS Opposite epagōgēs[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ccffff"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffcc"]epagōg-ē , 2. bringing in to one's aid, introduction
4. allurement, enticement,tais elpisi kai tais e.” D.19.322.
b. incantation, spell, in pl., Pl.R.364c, Lg.933d; Hekatēs phaskōn epagōgēn gegonenai saying that Hecate had put it under a spell, Thphr.Char.16.7.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 10, bgcolor: #ccffff, colspan: 2"]-LOGOS VI. verbal expression or utterance, lego, lexis
-Lexis A. speech, OPPOSITE ôidê[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 10, bgcolor: #ccffff"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffcc"] -ôidê, 1.art of song 5. = eppsdê, spell, incantation OPPOSITE -Lexis
4. text of an author, OPPOSITEexegesis [Peter's private interpretation outlaws exegesis]
Arist.En1142a26[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

As a matter of common knowledge Jesus and the Apostles SPOKE one Hymn (one of the Hallels) and would normally do it again NEXT YEAR at the next appointed hour. The Jews spoke of RECITING the Hallels as a SCHOOL BOY READS HIS TEXT. And reciting the hymns often is idolatry. Human Hymns ARE idols.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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KSublett,
Matthew 26:30
"When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives." (NIV)

Humneo again. They sang. You may not like it, but they sang anyway.

If the Bible says they sung, accept that they sung instead of trying to develop a convoluted argument from a Greek dictionary that only you can understand. It's a matter of submission to truth. You have to be willing to admit that you can be wrong. I know this music thing is a big stronghold for you, but it needs to be brought into captivity.

[Peter's private interpretation outlaws exegesis]
That sounds like your own eisegesis. Do you think eisegesis is okay. I suspect these posts of yours are an attempt at exegesis. But you aren't following your own advice.

As a matter of common knowledge Jesus and the Apostles SPOKE one Hymn (one of the Hallels) and would normally do it again NEXT YEAR at the next appointed hour. The Jews spoke of RECITING the Hallels as a SCHOOL BOY READS HIS TEXT.
Jews nowadays have singing, too. My guess is you arrive at your conclusions by reinterpreting words to mean what you want them to, pouring over dictionaries until you find a word here and a word there in a definition.

I realize that dictionaries have severe limitations. So do Greek grammars. Scholars understand what words mean by looking at their usage in context, not by looking up the way the dictionary author's described them. They may use such sources, but take them with a grain of salty. One Greek scholar I know described the Greek grammar rules, or a certain version of them, as 'the silly non-rules'.

And reciting the hymns often is idolatry. Human Hymns ARE idols.
Your last statement is based on nothing at all.

Btw, no one is saying it is wrong to speak or say a hymn without singing it. Even if you take the command to mean to speak the hymn, that does not forbid singing on other occasions. Obviously, not everyone in your movement agrees that speaking and singing are such distinct concepts.
 
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The COMMAND is to "SPEAK that which is written for our LEARNING."
Nothing that is delivered by God is METRICAL. Without measure most often means "without meter" and so we fine.
Therefore, there is nothing like modern Hollywood, Dollywood, the Grand Ole Opry and the Snake handlers music in the text.
That is why trying to justify the very abrasive and Burden Lading by Burden laders has no element of Disciple or scholarship about it.

[SIZE=+1]1911 Britannica "Sir Hubert Parry illustrates in this work the artificiality of our modern musical conceptions by the word " cadence," which to a modern musician belies its etymology, since it normally means for him no "falling " close but a pair of final chords rising from dominant to tonic. Moreover, in consequence of our harnionic notions we think of scales as constructed from the bottom upwards; and even in the above-mentioned article in Grove's Dictionary all the Greek scales are, from sheer force of habit, written upwards. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]But the ancient and, almost universally, the primitive idea of music is LIKE THAT OF SPEECH in which most inflections are in fact cadences, while rising inflexions express less usual sentiments, such as surprise or interrogation. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Again, our modern musical idea of "high" and " low "is probably derived from a sense of greater and less vocal EFFORT; and it has been much stimulated by our harmonic sense, which has necessitated a range of sounds incomparably greater[/SIZE] than those employed in any non-harmonic system.

But the only clue we have to the mental process by which in a preharmonic age different characteristics can be ascribed to scales identical in all but pitch, is to be found in the limited compass of Greek musical sounds, corresponding as it does to the evident sensitiveness of the Greek ear to differences in vocal effort.
......We have only to observe the compass of the Greek scale
......to see that in the most esteemed modes
......it is much more the compass of speaking 'than of singing voices.

Modern singing is normally at a much higher pitch than that of the speaking voice,
......but there is no natural reason, outside the peculiar nature of modern music,
......why this should be so.

It is highly probable that all modern singing would strike a classical Greek ear as an outcry; and in any case such variations of pitch as are inconsiderable in modern singing are extremely emphatic in the speaking voice, so that they might well make all the difference to an ear unaccustomed to organized sound beyond the speaking compass.

The Oxford History of Music, vols. i. and ii., will be found abundant examples of every stage of the process, which begins with the organum or diapliony that prevailed until the death of Guido of Arezzo (about 1050) and passes through the discant, or measured music, of the I3th century, in which rhythm is first organized on a sufficiently firm basis tc enable voices to sing contrasted rhythms simultaneously, while the new harmonic criterion of the independence of parts more and more displaces and shows its opposition to the old criterion of parallelism.

The Word, LOGOS is the Regulative Principle and is the OPPOSITE of rhetoric, poetry or music.
Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees (doctors of the law), hypocrites. In Ezekiel 33 Christ names slick speakers for HIRE, singers and instrument players.
Jesus did NOT say 'thou shalt not be a hypocrite" but one wonders why people work so hard for religious music which Scripture and history says was given by the Devil. Jubal HANDLED all of the instruments which means WITHOUT AUTHORITY. So, why do you suppose people spend their lives and fortune trying to IMPOSE something that is the mark of a certain PERSONA which causes owners to cast themselves out of their own synagogue.

Elders are to eject the cunning craftsmen or sophists because he said THEY LIE IN WAIT TO DECEIVE. Judas did not know his destiny until Jesus fed him the SOP which has the same root meaning as PSALLO.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Sing unto the Lord; for he hath done excellent things:
this is known in all the earth.

(Isaiah 12:5, NIV 1984)

the word translated here as "sing"

זָמַר (H2167)
play upon it; to make music, accompanied by the voice; hence to celebrate in song and music

  1. to sing, sing praise, make music
    1. (Piel)
      1. to make music, sing
      2. to play a musical instrument

the context of Isaiah 12:5 --

In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious.
(Isaiah 11:10, KJV)

what day are we talking about? the day when the Messiah is revealed -- starting a bit more than 2,000 years ago.
what does God by His prophet say will go down at this time?

With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation. And you will say in that day:
“Give thanks to the Lord,
call upon his name,
make known his deeds among the peoples,
proclaim that his name is exalted.


“Sing praises to the Lord, for he has done gloriously;
let this be made known in all the earth.
Shout, and sing for joy, O inhabitant of Zion,
for great in your midst is the Holy One of Israel.”
(Isaiah 12:3-6, KJV)

note that the Hebrew word זָמַר literally refers to playing musical instruments and secondarily to singing along with it. we shouldn't get hung up on the particulars of that so much that we miss this nugget of meaning - REJOICE IN THE LORD FOR HE HAS DONE GREAT THINGS!!

so rejoicing with song and music is not only condoned in the scripture but prophesied in conjunction with the coming of Christ our King.

isn't the Word of God that much more clear when you don't interpret it through the lens of a bunch of pagan mystical garbage?

we can go two ways with this: we can continue to stir up divisions by quibbling over words and dishonoring God's annointed, or we can REJOICE IN THE LORD!

personally, i don't give a whit if you sing, dance, clap your hands, blow a trumpet or simply speak, or even just keep quiet and glory in your heart -- the command is to REJOICE and i wait desperately for everyone to start doing it.

the Lord's mercy endures forever, and in it He has adopted us into His kingdom! today is the day of our salvation!
is there any god like our God? ?? ?


 
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h2167 It takes THREE words or a COMPOUND word well known to the Spirit OF Christ if you intend to PLAY an instrument or sing TO and instrument. Poor Jesus!

 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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we can go two ways with this: we can continue to stir up divisions by quibbling over words and dishonoring God's annointed, or we can REJOICE IN THE LORD!
h2167 It takes THREE words or a COMPOUND word well known to the Spirit OF Christ if you intend to PLAY an instrument or sing TO and instrument. Poor Jesus!
it's very clear where your heart is.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
(1 Timothy 4:1-3)
 
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