Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible
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"God is described as a Consuming fire Deut 4:24, and there is a biblical correlation between fire and the purifying of metal. It is logical then that this new form of communication will purify Man’s heart."
really? the gift of tongues purified man's heart?
what NEW form of communication?
they spoke/were heard in known languages.
the NEW thing was the miracle of the Wonderful Works of God (read Stephen's Sermon, and Peter's Sermon - it's THE GOSPEL) being heard in the language of every nation under heaven.
"The native language of the Jews in the group was Hebrew and the native languages of the Jewish converts are mentioned in Acts 2:9-11."
what? the proselytes are listed in the group. but the group were JEWS.
there were jews who dwelt permanently in Jerusalem, obviously. we already read all about the division among them because of Jesus. all those other jews had come in from their homes in other nations - for Pentecost.
where are you taking this?
"Why would hearing the Galilaean followers of Jesus declare the wonders of God be a sign from God to the Jews and converts to Judaism?
One reason that seems to be logical is that God wanted the hearers (circumcised Jews) to know He had accepted those speaking (both circumcised and uncircumcised people from Galilee).
God had given these Galileans the knowledge necessary to understand and speak about the same spiritual mysteries that the God Fearing Jews understood."
the Galileans were all jews. they were Christ's disciples. we already read about them in the Gospels.
"For an example of this refer to Acts 10:47 where Peter recognized the outpouring because of the language spoken.
In the above mentioned case and in Acts 2:11 it was not the language spoken that served as the sign but the content of the discussions that indicated to the hearers that God had given this “knowledge” (Lk 8:10) to these individuals.
It is important to remember that circumcision was a Jewish requirement and also a requirement for converts.
Now the Jews were hearing people being moved upon by God and they had not undergone physical circumcision. What was God trying to tell them? He was telling them for one thing, that the reality had come and the shadow was no longer a requirement. The shadow being physical circumcision and the reality being circumcision of the heart."
i haven't actually finished reading your thesis...but are you trying to make Pentecost primarily a miracle done through or for the proselytes of the gate (uncircumcised) who may have been there?
...
Cretes - Natives of Crete, a large and noted island in the Levant, or eastern part of the Mediterranean Sea, now called Candia.
Arabians - Natives of Arabia, a well known country of Asia, having the Red Sea on the west; the Persian Gulf on the east; Judea on the north; and the Indian Ocean on the south.
The wonderful works of God - Such as the incarnation of Christ; his various miracles, preaching, death, resurrection, and ascension; and the design of God to save the world through him. From this one circumstance we may learn that all the people enumerated above were either Jews or proselytes; and that there was probably none that could be, strictly speaking, called heathens among them. It may at first appear strange that there could be found Jews in so many different countries, some of which were very remote from the others; but there is a passage in Philo's Embassy to Caius which throws considerable light on the subject. In a letter sent to Caius by King Agrippa, he speaks of to the holy city of Jerusalem, not merely as the metropolis of Judea, but of many other regions, because of the colonies at different times led out of Judea, not only into neighboring countries, such as Egypt, Phoenicia, Syria, and Coelosyria, but also into those that are remote, such as Pamphylia, Cilicia, and the chief parts of Asia as far as Bithynia, and the innermost parts of Pontus; also in the regions of Europe, Thessaly, Boeotia, Macedonia, Aetolia, Attica, Argos, Corinth, and the principal parts of Peloponnesus. Not only the continents and provinces (says he) are full of Jewish colonies, but the most celebrated isles also, Euboea, Cyprus, and Crete, not to mention the countries beyond the Euphrates. All these (a small part of Babylon and some other praefectures excepted, which possess fertile territories) are inhabited by Jews. Not only my native city entreats thy clemency, but other cities also, situated in different parts of the world, Asia, Europe, Africa; both islands, sea coasts, and inland countries." Philonis Opera, edit. Mangey, vol. ii. p. 587.
It is worthy of remark that almost all the places and provinces mentioned by St. Luke are mentioned also in this letter of King Agrippa. These, being all Jews or proselytes, could understand in some measure the wonderful works of God, of which mere heathens could have formed no conception. It was wisely ordered that the miraculous descent of the Holy Ghost should take place at this time, when so many from various nations were present to bear witness to what was done, and to be themselves subjects of his mighty working. These, on their return to their respective countries, would naturally proclaim what things they saw and heard; and by this the way of the apostles was made plain; and thus Christianity made a rapid progress over all those parts in a very short time after the resurrection of our Lord. - Clarke's.
...
"A similar type of speech is referred to by Paul in 1 Cor 2:13.
The Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor 14:21 that this language of fire is spoken of in the law, here refer to Isaiah 28:11. This statement of Paul’s links the Old and New Testament understandings of Tongues.
The words translated with stammering lips in Isaiah 28:11 can be translated - with a people (or person) of “strange language”. The word that was translated stammering is number 3934 in the Old Testament Hebrew dictionary contained in the Strong’s Concordance to the Bible.
This section of scripture (Isaiah 28:11) refers to God speaking to Priest’s that He had called to but who did not respond correctly to His call.
Because of this incorrect response (rebellion) God decided to speak to them through a person that they could not understand.
This is a fulfillment of what Jesus said in Matt 13:12. They no longer possessed the spiritual knowledge they once had, it had been stolen from them, Matt 13:1-12.
Isaiah and the drunken priests spoke the same earthly language but they did not speak the same spiritual language. The Priest’s could not understand the spiritual truths (mysteries) Isaiah was relating to them. They trusted in ‘Lies” as Isaiah 28:15 says, they thought they would be spared God’s judgement."
um...no.
the people of a “strange language” that God would now use to "speak to this (rebellious) people" were the Chaldeans.
they were sent into exile in Babylon because of rebellion < that's how God "spoke" to them - discipline/punishment through the captivity under ppl with stammering lips (Babylonians).
they were now in captivity under people (heathens) whose strange language they did not understand.
it doesn't mean the Babylonians were uttering mysteries and it isn't talking about Israelite priests speaking spiritual things they couldn't understand.
really? the gift of tongues purified man's heart?
what NEW form of communication?
they spoke/were heard in known languages.
the NEW thing was the miracle of the Wonderful Works of God (read Stephen's Sermon, and Peter's Sermon - it's THE GOSPEL) being heard in the language of every nation under heaven.
"The native language of the Jews in the group was Hebrew and the native languages of the Jewish converts are mentioned in Acts 2:9-11."
what? the proselytes are listed in the group. but the group were JEWS.
there were jews who dwelt permanently in Jerusalem, obviously. we already read all about the division among them because of Jesus. all those other jews had come in from their homes in other nations - for Pentecost.
where are you taking this?
"Why would hearing the Galilaean followers of Jesus declare the wonders of God be a sign from God to the Jews and converts to Judaism?
One reason that seems to be logical is that God wanted the hearers (circumcised Jews) to know He had accepted those speaking (both circumcised and uncircumcised people from Galilee).
God had given these Galileans the knowledge necessary to understand and speak about the same spiritual mysteries that the God Fearing Jews understood."
the Galileans were all jews. they were Christ's disciples. we already read about them in the Gospels.
"For an example of this refer to Acts 10:47 where Peter recognized the outpouring because of the language spoken.
In the above mentioned case and in Acts 2:11 it was not the language spoken that served as the sign but the content of the discussions that indicated to the hearers that God had given this “knowledge” (Lk 8:10) to these individuals.
It is important to remember that circumcision was a Jewish requirement and also a requirement for converts.
Now the Jews were hearing people being moved upon by God and they had not undergone physical circumcision. What was God trying to tell them? He was telling them for one thing, that the reality had come and the shadow was no longer a requirement. The shadow being physical circumcision and the reality being circumcision of the heart."
i haven't actually finished reading your thesis...but are you trying to make Pentecost primarily a miracle done through or for the proselytes of the gate (uncircumcised) who may have been there?
...
Cretes - Natives of Crete, a large and noted island in the Levant, or eastern part of the Mediterranean Sea, now called Candia.
Arabians - Natives of Arabia, a well known country of Asia, having the Red Sea on the west; the Persian Gulf on the east; Judea on the north; and the Indian Ocean on the south.
The wonderful works of God - Such as the incarnation of Christ; his various miracles, preaching, death, resurrection, and ascension; and the design of God to save the world through him. From this one circumstance we may learn that all the people enumerated above were either Jews or proselytes; and that there was probably none that could be, strictly speaking, called heathens among them. It may at first appear strange that there could be found Jews in so many different countries, some of which were very remote from the others; but there is a passage in Philo's Embassy to Caius which throws considerable light on the subject. In a letter sent to Caius by King Agrippa, he speaks of to the holy city of Jerusalem, not merely as the metropolis of Judea, but of many other regions, because of the colonies at different times led out of Judea, not only into neighboring countries, such as Egypt, Phoenicia, Syria, and Coelosyria, but also into those that are remote, such as Pamphylia, Cilicia, and the chief parts of Asia as far as Bithynia, and the innermost parts of Pontus; also in the regions of Europe, Thessaly, Boeotia, Macedonia, Aetolia, Attica, Argos, Corinth, and the principal parts of Peloponnesus. Not only the continents and provinces (says he) are full of Jewish colonies, but the most celebrated isles also, Euboea, Cyprus, and Crete, not to mention the countries beyond the Euphrates. All these (a small part of Babylon and some other praefectures excepted, which possess fertile territories) are inhabited by Jews. Not only my native city entreats thy clemency, but other cities also, situated in different parts of the world, Asia, Europe, Africa; both islands, sea coasts, and inland countries." Philonis Opera, edit. Mangey, vol. ii. p. 587.
It is worthy of remark that almost all the places and provinces mentioned by St. Luke are mentioned also in this letter of King Agrippa. These, being all Jews or proselytes, could understand in some measure the wonderful works of God, of which mere heathens could have formed no conception. It was wisely ordered that the miraculous descent of the Holy Ghost should take place at this time, when so many from various nations were present to bear witness to what was done, and to be themselves subjects of his mighty working. These, on their return to their respective countries, would naturally proclaim what things they saw and heard; and by this the way of the apostles was made plain; and thus Christianity made a rapid progress over all those parts in a very short time after the resurrection of our Lord. - Clarke's.
...
"A similar type of speech is referred to by Paul in 1 Cor 2:13.
The Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor 14:21 that this language of fire is spoken of in the law, here refer to Isaiah 28:11. This statement of Paul’s links the Old and New Testament understandings of Tongues.
The words translated with stammering lips in Isaiah 28:11 can be translated - with a people (or person) of “strange language”. The word that was translated stammering is number 3934 in the Old Testament Hebrew dictionary contained in the Strong’s Concordance to the Bible.
This section of scripture (Isaiah 28:11) refers to God speaking to Priest’s that He had called to but who did not respond correctly to His call.
Because of this incorrect response (rebellion) God decided to speak to them through a person that they could not understand.
This is a fulfillment of what Jesus said in Matt 13:12. They no longer possessed the spiritual knowledge they once had, it had been stolen from them, Matt 13:1-12.
Isaiah and the drunken priests spoke the same earthly language but they did not speak the same spiritual language. The Priest’s could not understand the spiritual truths (mysteries) Isaiah was relating to them. They trusted in ‘Lies” as Isaiah 28:15 says, they thought they would be spared God’s judgement."
um...no.
the people of a “strange language” that God would now use to "speak to this (rebellious) people" were the Chaldeans.
they were sent into exile in Babylon because of rebellion < that's how God "spoke" to them - discipline/punishment through the captivity under ppl with stammering lips (Babylonians).
they were now in captivity under people (heathens) whose strange language they did not understand.
it doesn't mean the Babylonians were uttering mysteries and it isn't talking about Israelite priests speaking spiritual things they couldn't understand.
presidente....is it the languages of men?
if it is, what's all the incoherent burbling stuff?
if it's the languages of angels, can you please find an example of angels speaking something NOT in the languages of men?
just answer simply: when you, or your friends, speak in tongues in church...do/you/understand/each/other - yes, or no?
there's NO EXCUSE for not understanding now - the Gospel has gone GLOBAL and we now know all languages.
so do you have any record at all of your church or any other church (there are hundreds of millions of people doing this - we should have ONE example on record) actually speaking in a known foreign language (unknowingly), then an unbelieving (or believer at this point...who cares) person coming in and translating that? it STILL has to be a known foreign language.
(unless you're retreating back to angelic utterances NOBODY can prove or disprove - in which case...WHAT...ARE.....THEY....FOR?)
just point me to the examples. i'll search and do all the follow up. how hard is this?
sounds like real languages?
no, they HAVE TO BE real languages. not sounds like.
you're a linguist. you either understand what's being said, or know someone else who will.
if it's a dialect of chinese, there are a half a BILLION people who can confirm it.
what's the problem here?
uh....this is always taking place overseas. stories.
okay. somebody speaks in incoherent (to you) noises.
another charismatic stands up and "translates" into the language of the people there.
is that what you're saying? because i can watch ppl in America doing the same thing (reference any other the videos posted).
if you don't have documentation that the speaker actually spoke in a known human language, how do you know the "translator" isn't speaking out of their vain hearts?
it happens, right? you've said people are willing to fake this.
look. if this stuff isn't confirmed by actual simple translation from one known language to another it's NOT FROM GOD.
it's delusion and deception.
if it is, what's all the incoherent burbling stuff?
if it's the languages of angels, can you please find an example of angels speaking something NOT in the languages of men?
just answer simply: when you, or your friends, speak in tongues in church...do/you/understand/each/other - yes, or no?
there's NO EXCUSE for not understanding now - the Gospel has gone GLOBAL and we now know all languages.
so do you have any record at all of your church or any other church (there are hundreds of millions of people doing this - we should have ONE example on record) actually speaking in a known foreign language (unknowingly), then an unbelieving (or believer at this point...who cares) person coming in and translating that? it STILL has to be a known foreign language.
(unless you're retreating back to angelic utterances NOBODY can prove or disprove - in which case...WHAT...ARE.....THEY....FOR?)
just point me to the examples. i'll search and do all the follow up. how hard is this?
sounds like real languages?
no, they HAVE TO BE real languages. not sounds like.
you're a linguist. you either understand what's being said, or know someone else who will.
if it's a dialect of chinese, there are a half a BILLION people who can confirm it.
what's the problem here?
uh....this is always taking place overseas. stories.
okay. somebody speaks in incoherent (to you) noises.
another charismatic stands up and "translates" into the language of the people there.
is that what you're saying? because i can watch ppl in America doing the same thing (reference any other the videos posted).
if you don't have documentation that the speaker actually spoke in a known human language, how do you know the "translator" isn't speaking out of their vain hearts?
it happens, right? you've said people are willing to fake this.
look. if this stuff isn't confirmed by actual simple translation from one known language to another it's NOT FROM GOD.
it's delusion and deception.
Burbling? Maybe that's your experience. If you want to hear babbling and burbling, listen to Hotenton or even Vietnamese.
No, I can find a verse that says, 'though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels.' There are a lot of things we don't know about angels. That's not the main focus of the Bible.
I have never gotten an interpretation in church, so no I don't.
That's the way the gift works. No one understands. Someone may receive an interpretation. Sometimes two get the interpretation and another gives it according to some people I know who've operated in the gift. The same thing can happen with prophecy and the word of knowledge sometimes.
Who is the 'we' that knows all languages. How do you say, "I'd like more ice cream, please" in Hottentot? The last I heard, not all languages had been written down.
Fire on Azusa tells an account of this from Azusa Street. There was also a book put out in 1971 by Paul Harris called 'Spoken by the Spirit' that has about 70 accounts of incidents like this. I think it may have had names of people giving the testimonies if I remember right, though consider the time it was written that may not be so helpful tracking them down these days. The book was available free online in a cumbersome format a few years ago.
Generally, though, I wouldn't expect people present in church to understand. Paul said of the Corinthian context 'no man understandeth him.' I don't believe church meeting are primarily for unbelievers.
Oh, yeah, like linguists can automatically know all languages they hear, or just figure them out in a few minutes. This is real life, not Star Trek. My bachelors is in Linguistics.
Supposing all tongues were contemporary, excluding the ancient languages, how would you identify one among the 2500 to 5000 languages in the world? Do you really know people who speak all the Dayak languages or all the languages of the Amazon?
Most of the world lives overseas. I spent a lot of my life overseas.
It's the type of thing that needs to be discerned like prophesying.
I think you are referring to another poster. But out of the billions of people on the earth, there are probably willing to fake anything.
Like many things you say, you can't show any scripture to support your opinions. Show me chapter and verse where the Bible teaches this. Paul said, "No man understandeth him" but the underlying assumption was that the gift was genuine.
No, I can find a verse that says, 'though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels.' There are a lot of things we don't know about angels. That's not the main focus of the Bible.
I have never gotten an interpretation in church, so no I don't.
That's the way the gift works. No one understands. Someone may receive an interpretation. Sometimes two get the interpretation and another gives it according to some people I know who've operated in the gift. The same thing can happen with prophecy and the word of knowledge sometimes.
Who is the 'we' that knows all languages. How do you say, "I'd like more ice cream, please" in Hottentot? The last I heard, not all languages had been written down.
Fire on Azusa tells an account of this from Azusa Street. There was also a book put out in 1971 by Paul Harris called 'Spoken by the Spirit' that has about 70 accounts of incidents like this. I think it may have had names of people giving the testimonies if I remember right, though consider the time it was written that may not be so helpful tracking them down these days. The book was available free online in a cumbersome format a few years ago.
Generally, though, I wouldn't expect people present in church to understand. Paul said of the Corinthian context 'no man understandeth him.' I don't believe church meeting are primarily for unbelievers.
Oh, yeah, like linguists can automatically know all languages they hear, or just figure them out in a few minutes. This is real life, not Star Trek. My bachelors is in Linguistics.
Supposing all tongues were contemporary, excluding the ancient languages, how would you identify one among the 2500 to 5000 languages in the world? Do you really know people who speak all the Dayak languages or all the languages of the Amazon?
Most of the world lives overseas. I spent a lot of my life overseas.
It's the type of thing that needs to be discerned like prophesying.
I think you are referring to another poster. But out of the billions of people on the earth, there are probably willing to fake anything.
Like many things you say, you can't show any scripture to support your opinions. Show me chapter and verse where the Bible teaches this. Paul said, "No man understandeth him" but the underlying assumption was that the gift was genuine.
B
Just a thought. How was the witch of Endor able to call up the spirit of Samuel after his death to provide an answer to Saul, unless you believe that Samuel was an evil or false spirit sent to imitate the prophet and predict Saul's death with his sons death the following day. BTW - Jonathan died alongside his father Saul and was David's friend and did not betray him or the kingdom of Israel, just in case some would like to connect Saul with being rejected as king, living in rebellion and seeking out a witch.
Linguistic Society of America
Linguistic Society of America | Advancing the Scientific Study of Language
Tel: +1 202 835-1714
"you can be here tomorrow? awesome, thanks. people's eternal souls are stake".
click.
Linguistic Society of America | Advancing the Scientific Study of Language
Tel: +1 202 835-1714
"you can be here tomorrow? awesome, thanks. people's eternal souls are stake".
click.
Zone,
You have to have some context against which to figure out what a language means. A few centuries ago, people did not know what those little Egyptian pictures meant until they discovered the Rosetta stone. Discovering that those pictures in Mayan structures was actually a writing system was a long and complicated process. Scholars did not even think it was a writing system. And there are some modern dialects of Mayan that they could work with, too.
You have to have some context against which to figure out what a language means. A few centuries ago, people did not know what those little Egyptian pictures meant until they discovered the Rosetta stone. Discovering that those pictures in Mayan structures was actually a writing system was a long and complicated process. Scholars did not even think it was a writing system. And there are some modern dialects of Mayan that they could work with, too.
presidente, out of the hundreds of millions of people who will speak in unknown languages in church this coming sunday....let's say in the United States....how many will be known to be speaking an actual language?
are they speaking the wonderful works of God and other ppl there are understanding in the languages in which THEY WERE BORN (right down to the regional dialect)?
if not, that's not the miracle that happened at Pentecost.
it's the opposite of it.
you figure it out.
are they speaking the wonderful works of God and other ppl there are understanding in the languages in which THEY WERE BORN (right down to the regional dialect)?
if not, that's not the miracle that happened at Pentecost.
it's the opposite of it.
you figure it out.
I have no need for excuses. Believing the word of God is not blasphemy. Speaking evil of the Spirit is blasphemy.
My point with Hottentot or Vietnamese is that if you heard it you would hear clicks or burbling, not that I've identified these languages. Like Paul said if you don't understand speaking in tongues, it is like hearing a Barbarian speak. Barbarians got their name, it is believed, from saying 'bar bar bar' (foreign words) instead of Greek.
My point with Hottentot or Vietnamese is that if you heard it you would hear clicks or burbling, not that I've identified these languages. Like Paul said if you don't understand speaking in tongues, it is like hearing a Barbarian speak. Barbarians got their name, it is believed, from saying 'bar bar bar' (foreign words) instead of Greek.