Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

[oldhermit]

presidente, out of the hundreds of millions of people who will speak in unknown languages in church this coming sunday....let's say in the United States....how many will be known to be speaking an actual language?

are they speaking the wonderful works of God and other ppl there are understanding in the languages in which THEY WERE BORN (right down to the regional dialect)?

if not, that's not the miracle that happened at Pentecost.
it's the opposite of it.

you figure it out.

I have always found it interesting that the gift most continuationalists claim to possess is the one that Paul says is considered to be the least of all the gifts. I suppose this is because it is the easiest to fake but, it is also the easiest to expose. I have listened to many people claiming to possess this "gift" and there is never anything to it but absolute gibberish and bears no resemblance to what we see in the N.T.

 

[SarahM777]

I have always found it interesting that the gift most continuationalists claim to possess is the one that Paul says is considered to be the least of all the gifts. I suppose this is because it is the easiest to fake but, it is also the easiest to expose. I have listened to many people claiming to possess this "gift" and there is never anything to it but absolute gibberish and bears no resemblance to what we see in the N.T.

Never mind the fact that discernment seems to be the gift that is missing.

 

[zone]

Paul said if you don't understand speaking in tongues, it is like hearing a Barbarian speak. Barbarians got their name, it is believed, from saying 'bar bar bar' (foreign words) instead of Greek.

no. he did not say "if you don't understand speaking in tongues" you're 'like a barbarian' < you guys are SLICK.

he said if you're 'speaking in a language' and no one understands that language, you'll sound like a barbarian - bar bar bar. < sound familiar?

and they had a real gift of real languages.

 

[Stephen63]

the "suppression of the gifts" theory.
guess which shell the pea is under this time.

tsk. if you've said the gifts never ceased, stick with your story.

Hello, zone.

I doubt very seriously anyone could doubt man's surpressing of the gifts after the RCC surpressed The Bible itself, by grace through faith doctrine for salvation, not to mention adding the traditions of works, buying souls out of purgatory, infant baptism, etc., etc. They held that death-grip for over a thousand years! It's not a stretch at all to believe man also hindered the gifts as well, considering after the reformation protestants established their doctrines after the RCC instead of starting over from scratch.

 

[zone]

Hello, zone.

I doubt very seriously anyone could doubt man's surpressing of the gifts after the RCC surpressed The Bible itself, by grace through faith doctrine for salvation, not to mention adding the traditions of works, buying souls out of purgatory, infant baptism, etc., etc. They held that death-grip for over a thousand years! It's not a stretch at all to believe man also hindered the gifts as well, considering after the reformation protestants established their doctrines after the RCC instead of starting over from scratch.

hi stephen
okay....Ken has posted on this theory quite in detail (during a discussion we had in Miscellaneous), and elsewhere.

so let's say for sake of argument the RCC is primary cause of the suppression of the gifts....what do we make of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal?

and what should we make of the strong ecumenical leanings of Charismatic leaders?
zone.

(edit - to the best of my knowledge Ken has always held to the Restoration-following-suppression theory, not continuation)

 

[SarahM777]

Hello, zone.

I doubt very seriously anyone could doubt man's surpressing of the gifts after the RCC surpressed The Bible itself, by grace through faith doctrine for salvation, not to mention adding the traditions of works, buying souls out of purgatory, infant baptism, etc., etc. They held that death-grip for over a thousand years! It's not a stretch at all to believe man also hindered the gifts as well, considering after the reformation protestants established their doctrines after the RCC instead of starting over from scratch.

HMMM But doesn't that leave out that the church at Corinth still had the gifts DESPITE all the garbage they were doing? Paul is speaking to them within the longest rebuke in the New Testament. Yet no where in their did he say THEY lost the gifts.

 

[zone]

HMMM But doesn't that leave out that the church at Corinth still had the gifts DESPITE all the garbage they were doing? Paul is speaking to them within the longest rebuke in the New Testament. Yet no where in their did he say THEY lost the gifts.

hmm....very true.

 

[zone]

Hello, zone.

I doubt very seriously anyone could doubt man's surpressing of the gifts after the RCC surpressed The Bible itself, by grace through faith doctrine for salvation, not to mention adding the traditions of works, buying souls out of purgatory, infant baptism, etc., etc. They held that death-grip for over a thousand years! It's not a stretch at all to believe man also hindered the gifts as well, considering after the reformation protestants established their doctrines after the RCC instead of starting over from scratch.

i don't suppose we should spend a lot of time on dates, but not sure when you consider the RCC to have suppressed the gifts - would that have been c.325-350 or with the pope and charlemagne c. 800?

let's pick a date (you can get specific about when either : the Lord might have been angry and taken away the gifts; or when false doctrine and ungodly offices over-rode the Holy Spirit), but what was it that caused the suppression? judgment from God or the doings of man?

just for a starting point let's say the gifts were suppressed as early as 400AD due to the works of man.

you say the reformation continued in the same way to suppress them....so that would take us beyond 1600 (?)

then, what happened whereby as a result of somebody :

.......starting over from scratch.

....the gifts were then restored?

was it another work of men that restored them, or God now being happy with the church again?

was it that somebody went back to reading Corinthians correctly and started praying for the gifts?

and lastly, would this be the Latter Rain theory?

k....zone

 

[oldhermit]

The disappearance of the gifts was not a matter of suppression by the RCC or anyone else. As we are told in 1Cor. 13, they either ceased, failed or were done away with. The only one who can do away with them is the one who gave them.

 

[BradC]

Never mind the fact that discernment seems to be the gift that is missing.

You have said quite a lot and have given your understanding about many things concerning the gifts of the Spirit. If you and I went out to minister the gospel and ran into a person from Russia, who spoke little or no English and the Spirit gave me a message in the Russian language of which I have no understanding, would you deem that as being not from God? The Russian understood everything I said being of the gospel, but you and I did not. Because of your belief in the gift of national tongues is it possible for the Spirit to give such an utterance that one would hear the gospel of Christ in their own language at that time? Or do you believe that the gifts have all ceased and God would have to find some other way or some other person who can speak the language to do so? By the same token if the Spirit led me to lay my hands on a person and God healed them of an affliction or disease, would you call that phony and not of God even though you have the evidence in front of you?

If God is not able to use the members of his own body, flesh and bones of which we are (Eph 5:30), then who is he going to use to do these things? he used his disciples and will he not use us also? Will he do these things without us or are we joined to the Lord in one spirit and have we not also been raised up by his own power (1 Cor 6:14,17)? Does the Spirit of God dwell in us, the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead (Rom 8:11)? If the gifts of the Spirit have ceased when that which is perfect had come (1 Cor 13:10), when did that happen and when did the church witnessed that event? You must agree that when Paul made this statement that it was an event that would take place in the future. It was quite dramatic when these gifts were given to the church at Pentecost and exercised thereby, would it not be also dramatic when they would have ceased when that which is perfect had come? When did that perfect come and who bore witness of that event signifying that the gifts had ceased? If you have an answer, I will listen.

 

[Stephen63]

hi stephen
okay....Ken has posted on this theory quite in detail (during a discussion we had in Miscellaneous), and elsewhere.
so let's say for sake of argument the RCC is primary cause of the suppression of the gifts....what do we make of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal?

I have difficulty with it. If the RCC is going to have revival, it needs to change its doctrine as well as its ways.

and what should we make of the strong ecumenical leanings of Charismatic leaders?
zone.

The modern charismatic leaders are wrong with this doctrine. But let's not be exclusive.
Most denominations today are either going brutally legalistic or "anything goes" liberal.
I myself am conservative, and I sweep around my own denominational back porch before I look at the others. I believe that anyone who believes their denomination is pure and right in these last days is a fool & blind.

 

[zone]

I have difficulty with it. If the RCC is going to have revival, it needs to change its doctrine as well as its ways.

so would their gifts be counterfeit? cuz they've officially sanctioned the Renewal since 1966-70 i believe.

The modern charismatic leaders are wrong with this doctrine. But let's not be exclusive.

re: ecumenism with Rome and others. okay.

Most denominations today are either going brutally legalistic or "anything goes" liberal.

but evangelical or other mainstream churches going legalistic (all law) ; or liberal (sin) isn't trying to unite with RCC and other denoms based on supposed revival of the foundational gifts.

I myself am conservative, and I sweep around my own denominational back porch before I look at the others. I believe that anyone who believes their denomination is pure and right in these last days is a fool & blind.

okay.
the subject in this thread is specifically tongues and prophecy.
so the ecumenical ppl - are their gifts not real gifts? how can you tell?
k....maybe back later.
zone

 

[homwardbound]

Indeed had the gifts ceased! ALL OF THEM, but only to non-believers. To the ones that believeth on Chrsit (IN CHRSIT) this is still as true as the day HE SPOKE IT..... Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father

About prohets and prophecies. God says His prophets are sent by Him, appointed by Him, and MOVED BY HIM. And WHATSOEVER THEY SAY WILL TRANSPIRE...
Well I have to ask this... God says in Revelation that there will be two witnesses that will prophesy in the City called Sodom spiritually. And they will prophesy for 1260 days. Now my question is, WILL THESE PROPHETS WORDS COME TRUE? YES! And where is it written WHAT THEY WILL PROPHESY? It is not written down YET!

Oh and look unto them is given the POWER to shut the heavens and it will NOT RAIN! WOW! I also shut the heavens over George a few years ago! God said to me.... ANYTHING YOU ASK NOW, COBUS, I will give you. And a thousand things flashed before my eyes, and I said... Not my will Lord but thou will be done..... And the last thing that passed slowly before my eyes were.... DROUGHT OVER GEORGE. And our city George had the worst drought in 200 years... It was still not 1260 days.

Jesus still gives and DO EVERYTHING a believer asks! EVERYTHING! There is NO difference in the power of prayer of a righteous person in Paul's days, or in our days. This verse is as true then as NOW! The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

WOW! Look no use we do fervent prayers and we are NOT RIGHTEOUS! And look it is EFFECTUAL prayer. EFFECTUAL means it has an effect.... That effect is exactly what the righteous man asks! God HIMSELF is the righteous man that asks.... God will NEVER deny Himself. NOT EVER. And the gifts will cease, they will, when God is finished with this world the last GIFT will be givent o this earth.... DESTRUCTION!

I healed many people when I attended a church of man. I performed many miricles and did great wonders.... BUT WITHOUT GOD! However, I also did wonders AFTER I got to know God! And when I asked Him..... Lord when will I preach Your Truth to people? He said.... Sorry son, I will be occupying that body for that part!

All God's people for ALL time did not do God's Work. God did HIS OWN WORK IN THEM FIRST, and then HE DID HIS WORK THROUGH THEM. Still God doing the Work. Even the ones Jesus did, WAS ALL GOD! If you can understand that, you have a little faith in TRUTH!

I see this as the exchanged life, my life for God's

 

[SarahM777]

You have said quite a lot and have given your understanding about many things concerning the gifts of the Spirit. If you and I went out to minister the gospel and ran into a person from Russia, who spoke little or no English and the Spirit gave me a message in the Russian language of which I have no understanding, would you deem that as being not from God? The Russian understood everything I said being of the gospel, but you and I did not. Because of your belief in the gift of national tongues is it possible for the Spirit to give such an utterance that one would hear the gospel of Christ in their own language at that time? Or do you believe that the gifts have all ceased and God would have to find some other way or some other person who can speak the language to do so? By the same token if the Spirit led me to lay my hands on a person and God healed them of an affliction or disease, would you call that phony and not of God even though you have the evidence in front of you?

If God is not able to use the members of his own body, flesh and bones of which we are (Eph 5:30), then who is he going to use to do these things? he used his disciples and will he not use us also? Will he do these things without us or are we joined to the Lord in one spirit and have we not also been raised up by his own power (1 Cor 6:14,17)? Does the Spirit of God dwell in us, the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead (Rom 8:11)? If the gifts of the Spirit have ceased when that which is perfect had come (1 Cor 13:10), when did that happen and when did the church witnessed that event? You must agree that when Paul made this statement that it was an event that would take place in the future. It was quite dramatic when these gifts were given to the church at Pentecost and exercised thereby, would it not be also dramatic when they would have ceased when that which is perfect had come? When did that perfect come and who bore witness of that event signifying that the gifts had ceased? If you have an answer, I will listen.

UMM Why wouldn't the Lord bring to him a Christian who could speak Russian and have a dialogue with him? Two where is the one who is to interpret what is being said?

I never said all the gifts ceased I said SOME ceased. Paul talks about three that would cease,Paul in that passages does NOT mention any others. Paul does NOT in that passage say all the gifts would cease. People read into it that is what Paul is saying.

I also never said does not heal anymore,what I said is we do not see the same type of healings that Jesus and the apostles did. We do not see people being healed in a moment having limbs reattached,people born and then living in a wheel chair and then in a moment being able to walk.

 

[zone]

hi stephen
okay....Ken has posted on this theory quite in detail (during a discussion we had in Miscellaneous), and elsewhere.

so let's say for sake of argument the RCC is primary cause of the suppression of the gifts....what do we make of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal?

and what should we make of the strong ecumenical leanings of Charismatic leaders?
zone.

(edit - to the best of my knowledge Ken has always held to the Restoration-following-suppression theory, not continuation)

Ken was kind enough to clarify his position for me:
i'll just post the correction from our talk that i need to make:

"Let's see if I can clarify. I have always thought the gifts continued in the Body of Christ, but never in the church, because they were suppressed there..... So, if you define continuationism as "in the church", then I am Supression/restoration. If you define it as "in the Body", I am of the opinion that suppression came close to removing it, but never completely, and fully redefining our understanding of it to where we can no longer be certain if what we see is the same as I Cor. or not."

thanks Ken
and apologies.
zone.

 

[brmicke]

Hi Zone -- I know we disagree on many points however.....
In many of your questions you seem to be trying so hard to be unnecessarily sarcastic and antagonistic that I have difficulty following what you are trying to say. I say this because of your use of the phrases, "what?" ,"Um..not" , "really" etc.

I know that becoming sarcastic etc.. can be a result of these heated discussions, but don't let this attitude become a part of you.

"Why would hearing the Galilaean followers of Jesus declare the wonders of God be a sign from God to the Jews and converts to Judaism?
One reason that seems to be logical is that God wanted the hearers (circumcised Jews) to know He had accepted those speaking (both circumcised and uncircumcised people from Galilee).
God had given these Galileans the knowledge necessary to understand and speak about the same spiritual mysteries that the God Fearing Jews understood."

The quote mentioned above is from my article on tongues. However your comment which follows is incorrect in my opinion.

the Galileans were all jews. they were Christ's disciples. we already read about them in the Gospels.

In Peter's group all of the Galileans speaking were not necessarily natural Jews, some were proselytes of the gate, which means they were native to other nations and they had converted to Judaism, but had not received physical circumcision. So in essence what this whole Pentecost event signified was that a person did not have to become a Jew to receive the Holy Spirit.

"For an example of this refer to Acts 10:47 where Peter recognized the outpouring because of the language spoken.
In the above mentioned case and in Acts 2:11 it was not the language spoken that served as the sign but the content of the discussions that indicated to the hearers that God had given this “knowledge” (Lk 8:10) to these individuals.
It is important to remember that circumcision was a Jewish requirement and also a requirement for converts.
Now the Jews were hearing people being moved upon by God and they had not undergone physical circumcision. What was God trying to tell them? He was telling them for one thing, that the reality had come and the shadow was no longer a requirement. The shadow being physical circumcision and the reality being circumcision of the heart."

Again the paragraph is a portion of my article on tongues. Your comments that follow are an excellent summary of my article.

i haven't actually finished reading your thesis...but are you trying to make Pentecost primarily a miracle done through or for the proselytes of the gate (uncircumcised) who may have been there?

Your description in the sentence above is an excellent summary of my conclusion. Interestingly and more importantly it is also Peters summary of this event in Acts 2:17.

Ac 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Peter summarized the purpose of this Pentecost event by saying that the Gospel was now available to people from every nation, and not exclusively to the Jewish believers.

The wonderful works of God - Such as the incarnation of Christ; his various miracles, preaching, death, resurrection, and ascension; and the design of God to save the world through him. From this one circumstance we may learn that all the people enumerated above were either Jews or proselytes; and that there was probably none that could be, strictly speaking, called heathens among them. It may at first appear strange that there could be found Jews in so many different countries, some of which were very remote from the others;....

It is worthy of remark that almost all the places and provinces mentioned by St. Luke are mentioned also in this letter of King Agrippa. These, being all Jews or proselytes, could understand in some measure the wonderful works of God, of which mere heathens could have formed no conception. It was wisely ordered that the miraculous descent of the Holy Ghost should take place at this time, when so many from various nations were present to bear witness to what was done, and to be themselves subjects of his mighty working. These, on their return to their respective countries, would naturally proclaim what things they saw and heard; and by this the way of the apostles was made plain; and thus Christianity made a rapid progress over all those parts in a very short time after the resurrection of our Lord. - Clarke's.

The thoughts of the man mentioned above are the common understanding, which states that God brought about the Pentecost event to spread the gospel. But that is not what Peter said was the purpose of the event in Acts 2:17. Peter said the purpose of the event was to show that all people from every nation could now receive the Holy Spirit. Before this event only Jews and those who became Jews (proselytes) could receive the Holy Spirit.

It may have been a natural result that this event spread the gospel, but the purpose of the event is very specific and Peter describes it not as a method of spreading the Gospel. Peter stresses that the Holy Spirit is now available to every people group, and no longer just one people group (the Jews).

"A similar type of speech is referred to by Paul in 1 Cor 2:13.
The Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor 14:21 that this language of fire is spoken of in the law, here refer to Isaiah 28:11. This statement of Paul’s links the Old and New Testament understandings of Tongues.
The words translated with stammering lips in Isaiah 28:11 can be translated - with a people (or person) of “strange language”. The word that was translated stammering is number 3934 in the Old Testament Hebrew dictionary contained in the Strong’s Concordance to the Bible.
This section of scripture (Isaiah 28:11) refers to God speaking to Priest’s that He had called to but who did not respond correctly to His call.
Because of this incorrect response (rebellion) God decided to speak to them through a person that they could not understand.
This is a fulfillment of what Jesus said in Matt 13:12. They no longer possessed the spiritual knowledge they once had, it had been stolen from them, Matt 13:1-12.
Isaiah and the drunken priests spoke the same earthly language but they did not speak the same spiritual language. The Priest’s could not understand the spiritual truths (mysteries) Isaiah was relating to them. They trusted in ‘Lies” as Isaiah 28:15 says, they thought they would be spared God’s judgement."

This quote above is a segment of my article on tongues which as you might imagine - I agree with. However the paragraph below is your statement, which is the traditional understanding of the events spoken of in Isaiah chapter 28.

the people of a “strange language” that God would now use to "speak to this (rebellious) people" were the Chaldeans.
they were sent into exile in Babylon because of rebellion < that's how God "spoke" to them - discipline/punishment through the captivity under ppl with stammering lips (Babylonians).
they were now in captivity under people (heathens) whose strange language they did not understand.
it doesn't mean the Babylonians were uttering mysteries and it isn't talking about Israelite priests speaking spiritual things they couldn't understand.

God was going to speak to the drunken priests in Isaiah chapter 28, as verse 14 clearly shows. He was not going to speak to the entire nation of Israel in this chapter. The scornful men who ruled God's rebellious people were the drunken Priests or pastors. They were specifically the ones that Isaiah's speech was directed towards. God was going to speak to the pastors in a "strange language" (or one they could not understand). The language they could not understand did not necessarily have to be a foreign language it could simply be a message that the disobedient pastors would not understand. I say this because Isaiah spoke the same native language as the disobedient pastors.

Isaiah said "hear the word of the Lord" indicating first of all that Isaiah was the speaker, and secondly that He going to was now deliver the message from God to the priests. Isaiah then of course goes on to speak the parable or mystery about their covenant with death being annulled. So God would be in effect speaking to the disobedient pastors.

Zone, in the following quote you hit upon the very words that show with certainty that the Babylonians were not the ones speaking in Tongues here.

You said that the Babylonians were not speaking mysteries to the Israelite priests, but Paul said in 1 Cor 14:2 that the person who speaks in a tongue speaks mysteries in the Holy Spirit of God. So Paul's scriptural description of Tongues differs from the conclusions reached using the concept that the Chaldean captivity illustrates speaking in tongues. This concept is proven to be incorrect, using your own words and conclusions.

it doesn't mean the Babylonians were uttering mysteries

Brian

 

[zone]

Hi Zone -- I know we disagree on many points however.....
In many of your questions you seem to be trying so hard to be unnecessarily sarcastic and antagonistic that I have difficulty following what you are trying to say. I say this because of your use of the phrases, "what?" ,"Um..not" , "really" etc.

I know that becoming sarcastic etc.. can be a result of these heated discussions, but don't let this attitude become a part of you.

The quote mentioned above is from my article on tongues. However your comment which follows is incorrect in my opinion.
In Peter's group all of the Galileans speaking were not necessarily natural Jews, some were proselytes of the gate, which means they were native to other nations and they had converted to Judaism, but had not received physical circumcision. So in essence what this whole Pentecost event signified was that a person did not have to become a Jew to receive the Holy Spirit.

Again the paragraph is a portion of my article on tongues. Your comments that follow are an excellent summary of my article.

Your description in the sentence above is an excellent summary of my conclusion. Interestingly and more importantly it is also Peters summary of this event in Acts 2:17.

Ac 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Peter summarized the purpose of this Pentecost event by saying that the Gospel was now available to people from every nation, and not exclusively to the Jewish believers.

The thoughts of the man mentioned above are the common understanding, which states that God brought about the Pentecost event to spread the gospel. But that is not what Peter said was the purpose of the event in Acts 2:17. Peter said the purpose of the event was to show that all people from every nation could now receive the Holy Spirit. Before this event only Jews and those who became Jews (proselytes) could receive the Holy Spirit.

It may have been a natural result that this event spread the gospel, but the purpose of the event is very specific and Peter describes it not as a method of spreading the Gospel. Peter stresses that the Holy Spirit is now available to every people group, and no longer just one people group (the Jews).

This quote above is a segment of my article on tongues which as you might imagine - I agree with. However the paragraph below is your statement, which is the traditional understanding of the events spoken of in Isaiah chapter 28.

God was going to speak to the drunken priests in Isaiah chapter 28, as verse 14 clearly shows. He was not going to speak to the entire nation of Israel in this chapter. The scornful men who ruled God's rebellious people were the drunken Priests or pastors. They were specifically the ones that Isaiah's speech was directed towards. God was going to speak to the pastors in a "strange language" (or one they could not understand). The language they could not understand did not necessarily have to be a foreign language it could simply be a message that the disobedient pastors would not understand. I say this because Isaiah spoke the same native language as the disobedient pastors.

Isaiah said "hear the word of the Lord" indicating first of all that Isaiah was the speaker, and secondly that He going to was now deliver the message from God to the priests. Isaiah then of course goes on to speak the parable or mystery about their covenant with death being annulled. So God would be in effect speaking to the disobedient pastors.

Zone, in the following quote you hit upon the very words that show with certainty that the Babylonians were not the ones speaking in Tongues here.

You said that the Babylonians were not speaking mysteries to the Israelite priests, but Paul said in 1 Cor 14:2 that the person who speaks in a tongue speaks mysteries in the Holy Spirit of God. So Paul's scriptural description of Tongues differs from the conclusions reached using the concept that the Chaldean captivity illustrates speaking in tongues. This concept is proven to be incorrect, using your own words and conclusions.
Brian

no Brian.
the confirmation through the sign of language that the Gospel was going to the gentiles happens AFTER the Jews heard it, in Chapter 10

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Acts 10
Peter and Cornelius
1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. 3About the ninth hour of the daya he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” 4And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter. 6He is lodging with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.” 7When the angel who spoke to him had departed, he called two of his servants and a devout soldier from among those who attended him, 8and having related everything to them, he sent them to Joppa.

Peter’s Vision
9The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hourb to pray. 10And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. 12In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” 16This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.

17Now while Peter was inwardly perplexed as to what the vision that he had seen might mean, behold, the men who were sent by Cornelius, having made inquiry for Simon’s house, stood at the gate 18and called out to ask whether Simon who was called Peter was lodging there. 19And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.” 21And Peter went down to the men and said, “I am the one you are looking for. What is the reason for your coming?” 22And they said, “Cornelius, a centurion, an upright and God-fearing man, who is well spoken of by the whole Jewish nation, was directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and to hear what you have to say.” 23So he invited them in to be his guests.

The next day he rose and went away with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa accompanied him. 24And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.” 27And as he talked with him, he went in and found many persons gathered. 28And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean. 29So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me.”

30And Cornelius said, “Four days ago, about this hour, I was praying in my house at the ninth hour,c and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing 31and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea.’ 33So I sent for you at once, and you have been kind enough to come. Now therefore we are all here in the presence of God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord.”

Gentiles Hear the Good News
34So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), 37you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. 39And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, 40but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, 41not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles
44While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47“Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

You said that the Babylonians were not speaking mysteries to the Israelite priests, but Paul said in 1 Cor 14:2 that the person who speaks in a tongue speaks mysteries in the Holy Spirit of God. So Paul's scriptural description of Tongues differs from the conclusions reached using the concept that the Chaldean captivity illustrates speaking in tongues. This concept is proven to be incorrect, using your own words and conclusions.
Brian

Brian...pretty sure you misunderstood what God meant when He said He would SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE (rebellious jews) through people with stammering lips.

that passage in Isaiah records God's anger at the Priests/prophets (and the people listened to them)...it describes His punishment - they would go into captivity TO THOSE people with stammering lips - under Nebuchadnezzar.

it's got nothing to do with God speaking any mysteries to them: either through any Israelites priests/prophets/or the Babylonians.
it just means because they wouldn't listen to HIM - He would "SPEAK" (show them His response to their refusal) to them IN THAT WAY - CAPTIVITY. that's the point. they'd serve Him, in captivity under people whose words they didn't understand.

not mysteries or anything else.

 

[brmicke]

Hi Zone - so do you think there is any connection between the wording "stammering" tongues etc. in Isaiah 28:11 and the use of the same wording regarding tongues in 1 Cor 14:21?

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

1Co 14:21 ¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Respectfully - Brian

 

[brmicke]

Zone - in defense of my position that only the rebellious priests are being addressed in Isaiah 28:11, look at the next verse (verse 12)

Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Look at the Phrase "cause the weary to rest". It is my opinion that the priests were given understanding, and then God said to them - now you priests take this knowledge and cause the weary (the weary people of Israel) to rest. Unfortunately the priests refused to use the knowledge to "cause the weary to rest" therefore they are going to be disciplined.

Respectfully - Brian

 

[zone]

Hi Zone - so do you think there is any connection between the wording "stammering" tongues etc. in Isaiah 28:11 and the use of the same wording regarding tongues in 1 Cor 14:21?

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

1Co 14:21 ¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Respectfully - Brian

1 Corinthians 14:21
20Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature. 21In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord. 22So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers


Jeremiah 5:15
People of Israel," declares the LORD, "I am bringing a distant nation against you-- an ancient and enduring nation, a people whose language you do not know, whose speech you do not understand.


Isaiah 28
Judgment on Ephraim and Jerusalem
1 Ah, the proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim,
and the fading flower of its glorious beauty,
which is on the head of the rich valley of those overcome with wine!

2 Behold, the Lord has one who is mighty and strong;
like a storm of hail, a destroying tempest,
like a storm of mighty, overflowing waters,
he casts down to the earth with his hand.

3 The proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim
will be trodden underfoot;

4 and the fading flower of its glorious beauty,
which is on the head of the rich valley,
will be like a first-ripe fig before the summer:
when someone sees it, he swallows it
as soon as it is in his hand.

5 In that day the LORD of hosts will be a crown of glory,a
and a diadem of beauty, to the remnant of his people,

6 and a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment,
and strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.

7 These also reel with wine
and stagger with strong drink;
the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink,
they are swallowed byb wine,
they stagger with strong drink,
they reel in vision,
they stumble in giving judgment.

8 For all tables are full of filthy vomit,
with no space left.

9 “To whom will he teach knowledge,
and to whom will he explain the message?
Those who are weaned from the milk,
those taken from the breast?

10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little.”

11 For by people of strange lips
and with a foreign tongue
the LORD will speak to this people,

12 to whom he has said,
“This is rest;
give rest to the weary;
and this is repose”;
yet they would not hear.

13 And the word of the LORD will be to them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little,
that they may go, and fall backward,
and be broken, and snared, and taken.


THE PUNISHMENT ^^ << CAPTIVITY IN BABYLON


A Cornerstone in Zion
14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers,
who rule this people in Jerusalem!

15 Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death,
and with Sheol we have an agreement,
when the overwhelming whip passes through
it will not come to us,
for we have made lies our refuge,
and in falsehood we have taken shelter”;

16 therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
“Behold, I am the one who has laidc as a foundation in Zion,
a stone, a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone, of a sure foundation:
‘Whoever believes will not be in haste.’

17 And I will make justice the line,
and righteousness the plumb line;
and hail will sweep away the refuge of lies,
and waters will overwhelm the shelter.”

18 Then your covenant with death will be annulled,
and your agreement with Sheol will not stand;
when the overwhelming scourge passes through,
you will be beaten down by it.

19 As often as it passes through it will take you;
for morning by morning it will pass through,
by day and by night;
and it will be sheer terror to understand the message

20 For the bed is too short to stretch oneself on,
and the covering too narrow to wrap oneself in.

21 For the LORD will rise up as on Mount Perazim;
as in the Valley of Gibeon he will be roused;
to do his deed—strange is his deed!
and to work his work—alien is his work!

22 Now therefore do not scoff,
lest your bonds be made strong;
for I have heard a decree of destruction
from the Lord GOD of hosts against the whole land.

23 Give ear, and hear my voice;
give attention, and hear my speech.

24 Does he who plows for sowing plow continually?
Does he continually open and harrow his ground?

25 When he has leveled its surface,
does he not scatter dill, sow cumin,
and put in wheat in rows
and barley in its proper place,
and emmerd as the border?

26 For he is rightly instructed;
his God teaches him.

27 Dill is not threshed with a threshing sledge,
nor is a cart wheel rolled over cumin,
but dill is beaten out with a stick,
and cumin with a rod.

28 Does one crush grain for bread?
No, he does not thresh it forever;e
when he drives his cart wheel over it
with his horses, he does not crush it.

29 This also comes from the LORD of hosts;
he is wonderful in counsel
and excellent in wisdom.

THE PROMISE ^ WITH ANOTHER WARNING ATTACHED < for the MOCKERS - who even when the PROMISE came to pass, they still MOCKED.


Isaiah 33:19
You will see those arrogant people no more, people whose speech is obscure, whose language is strange and incomprehensible. < release from Babylon, destruction of Babylon.


when they went HOME, were there STILL unbelievers even when Jesus was there?


1 Corinthians 14:21
20Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature. 21In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord. 22So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers