Company to install microchips in employees

[trofimus]

Hello Trofimus,



This is exactly one of the main problems as to why people misinterpret the book of Revelation. I call this symbolitis! There is no reason to approach the book of Revelation as being symbolic. It should be read in the literal sense until symbolism is obvious. If the literal sense makes perfect sense, then don't seek any other sense.



The above is the teaching of seventh day advents. There is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to apply a symbolic interpretation of the mark. In addition, we are already seeing people being implanted with RFID chips under the skin of the hand, which would support a literal interpretation of the scripture. The fact that this is already happening exactly as scripture proclaims, gets rid of the idea of the mark on the forehead as figuratively representing "thinking" and the mark on the hand as representing "action."


This technology of people from Sweden and her sister countries and now beginning here in the US, is the evolution of what will become the literal mark in the right hand or forehead as a means of electronically crediting and debiting (buying and selling) of an individuals bank account.

I have the exactly opposite opinion. Revelation is clearly a very symbolic book. From the first page to the last one.

So I have no idea why I would take the opposite direction and said its literal until proven otherwise.

Also, you are still very concentrating on the technology issue, while the main problem is the worshipping of the beast instead of true God.

 

[Denadii]

I stated what I know.
If I am still here when the mark comes, my Lord will give me the grace to say no.
It is a waste of my time to speculate.

Then, my friend, why are you wasting your time reading these posts?

 

[Ahwatukee]

There are various definitions and links to the word Mark:

Noun: a line, figure, or symbol made as an indication or record of something. Synonyms: Symbol, sign, character, diacritic
Noun: a sign or indication of a quality or feeling. Synonyms: Evidence, stamp, property, peculiarity, indicator
Noun: a target. Synonyms: Objective, end, purpose, intention

Verb: write a word or symbol on (an object) in order to give information. Synonyms: Label, tag, brand, stamp
Verb: indicate the position of. Synonyms: Show, identify, designate, delineate, denote

Link word: Margin
Verb: provide with an edge or border

Link word: Edge
Noun: a quality or factor which gives superiority over close rivals
Verb: provide with a border or edge
Verb: move or cause to move gradually or furtively in a particular direction

Link word: Point

Link word: Puncture
Verb: cause a sudden collapse of mood or feeling (depress) Synonyms: Deflate, flatten, reduce (supress)

Hello mj007,

We should actually use the Biblical Greek definition in order to understand what the word "Charagma" translated as "mark" is actually defined as:

=================================================

Strong's Concordance

charagma: a stamp, impress​

Original Word: χάραγμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: charagma
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ag-mah)
Short Definition: sculpture, a stamp, sign
Definition: sculpture; engraving, a stamp, sign.
HELPS Word-studies

5480 xáragma – properly, an engraving (etching); (figuratively) a mark providing undeniable identification, like a symbol giving irrefutable connection between parties.

5480 /xáragma ("brand-mark") was originally any impress on a coin or a seal, used by an engraver on a die (stamp, branding iron). 5480 (xáragma) later became "the identification-marker" (like with an owner's unique "brand-mark").

=================================================

That said, in seeing this vision of the future, John would have absolutely nothing from his period to compare to what he was seeing. The closest that he can come is "Charagma." Because there was no technology during John's time, he can't say,

"He causes all both rich and poor, great and small, free and slave to receive a device that will be inserted under the skin using a syringe that will allow the individual to electronically credit and debit their bank accounts."

But we who are living in the time frame of his vision, can read the scripture and understand what he was seeing and is referring to.

 

[Magenta]

Yeah, I would not be suprised at all if islam will be the beast and Mohammed its prophet.

They are number one in killing Christians (and other religions) already.

Interesting too that the pope aligns himself with Islam, leading millions of Roman Catholics into ever more egregious error.

DO CATHOLICS AND MUSLIMS WORSHIP THE SAME GOD?​

Catholicism and Islam are monotheistic religions, that is, both believe that there is but one God. However, that does not necessarily imply that they worship the same God. Two men may be married to one woman, but that does not mean that they are married to the same woman. So, the question is whether Catholics and Muslims worship the same one God.

The modern Catholic Church has defined her relations to non-Christian religions in a document entitled Nostra Aetate. The section on Islam begins thus:

The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men.
​

While it does not state explicitly that 'the one God' adored by the Muslims is the true and living God, this seems to be the natural implication. For why would Rome commend Muslims for this belief if their God was considered a false deity? Indeed, unlike their ancestors, many modern Catholics are convinced that they and Muslims worship the same God.

Is this true? Is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ the same as Allah? What does the Bible teach about God? What does the Quran say?

The True and Living God

Following the ordinance of our Lord, Christians are baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The baptismal formula of the initiation rite reflects the Christian doctrine of the holy Trinity. The disciples are baptized in the singular name of God (for God is one), and yet, three distinct persons are mentioned, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The biblical doctrine on the Trinity is correctly expressed in the Nicene and Athanasian creeds:

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father…We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life…

Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal.
​

These definitions were forged in the furnace of great controversies in the early church. Heretics troubled the church with false doctrines about God, especially Arius, who denied the Deity of Christ. In response, the orthodox Fathers laboured in the Scriptures to formulate the true doctrine of God. They understood the fundamental importance of this doctrine, and rightly warned that: 'This is the catholic faith, which except a man shall have believed faithfully and firmly he cannot be in a state of salvation.'

The importance of the doctrine of the Deity of Christ cannot be overstated. Unless the Son is truly God and 'one with the Father', Christians would be idolaters, for we regard Jesus as our Lord and Saviour and gladly worship him. If Jesus were not God, we would be found trusting in a creature for our salvation. But we confess that Jesus is not merely another prophet, but the Son of God. The Jews in hid day understood well what he meant by that title: 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God' (John 10:33). They did not believe his claim to Deity and condemned him to death for blasphemy. But Christians understand his claim and believe him; we trust and worship the Son of God; we live and die for our Lord. For in Christ we know God in truth:

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20, 21).
​

The Son is the true God; any other god is an idol.

The Quran

Islam vehemently rejects the doctrine of God as revealed in Holy Scriptures.

Islam denies the Trinity:

Certainly they disbelieve those who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve (Sura 5:73).

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not 'Three' - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son (Sura 4:171).
​

Islam denies the Father and the Son:

The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them (Sura 9:29-30).
It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified (Sura 19:35).
​

Islam denies the Deity of Christ:

The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God’s apostle (Sura 4).

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is Christ the son of Mary (Sura 5:72).

And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right (Sura 5:116).

In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary (Sura 5:17).
​

Clearly then, the Quran denies:

1. The Trinity;
2. The Sonship of Christ;
3. The Deity of Christ.
​

The conclusion is inevitable: the god of Islam is not the same God of the Holy Scriptures. Christians do not adore the same God as Muslims. Muslims are not merely ignorant of the Triune nature of God and the Deity of the Son: the Quran explicitly negates the doctrine of Christ as taught in the Bible. Rather than adoring God with us, Muslims pray to their god that he might destroy us because of our faith in Christ, the Son of God. 'The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them' (Sura 9:29-30).

The Catholic Position

The Roman Catholic Church upholds the doctrine of the Trinity (Catechism paragraphs 261-267). It is therefore astounding that the Catechism contradicts everything the Catholic Church has taught about God and states that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God:

The Church’s relationship with Muslims. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 841, quoting Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964).
​

According to the Catechism, 'together with us (Catholics) they (Muslims) adore the one, merciful God.' Pope John Paul II repeats this statement even more clearly. Addressing Muslim youths, the Pope said: 'We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God, the God who creates worlds and brings creatures to their perfection' (What Dialogue Means for Catholics and Muslims, US Conference of Catholic Bishops, http://www.usccb.org/seia/brunett.htm).

How could Catholics and Muslims worship the same God since Muslims deny the Trinity, the Sonship and the Deity of our Lord? Quite frankly, the statement that Catholics and Muslims adore the same God is false. I will not speculate on the motives of the modern Catholic hierarchy for making this false assertion. However, it should be evident to every Catholic who has complete confidence in the infallibility and unchangeableness of the Roman magisterium, that in fact the Vatican's teaching on this matter has changed and that it is both fallible and mistaken.

Dr Robert Reymond comments on the odd stand of Roman Catholicism on Islam:

I should note in passing that Islam’s doctrinal hostility to Biblical Christianity apparently does not bother the Roman Catholic Church, for Rome declared in its 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church (paragraph 841) that Muslims are included within God’s plan of salvation because they 'acknowledge the Creator,...profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with [Christians]...adore the one merciful God [Muslims and Christians hardly 'adore' the same 'one merciful God'].' Never mind that Islam’s Allah is not the triune God of the Old and New Testaments; never mind that Muslims think our Trinity is made up of God, a human Jesus, and Mary his mother, the last two of whom we blasphemously worship along with God; never mind that they deny that Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God and that he died on a cross a sacrificial death for his people’s sin and rose again because of their justification; never mind that Muslims believe that Christians are idolaters because we worship Christ who they contend was simply a human Messiah and a human prophet; never mind that they see no need for Christ’s substitutionary atonement or for that matter any substitutionary atonement at all. According to Rome’s teaching, in spite of their unbelief, Muslims are still salvifically related to the People of God and may go to Heaven as Muslims, all of which shows how serious is Roman Catholicism’s departure from Christianity (Reymond, R. What’s Wrong with Islam?).
​

Christian Response

The Christian response to Muslims should be twofold. Firstly, we must separate ourselves from Islam and clearly state that it is a false religion. 'Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds' (2 John 9-11). Christians do not have any ecumenical relationship with Muslims. We cannot participate in their idolatry by saying that we worship the same God. On the contrary, we must warn them that since they do not abide in the doctrine of Christ, they do not have God.

Secondly, we have an evangelistic responsibility towards Muslims. They have been indoctrinated against the Son of God. We must proclaim Jesus, the Son of God, the Lord from Heaven, the Saviour of the World. We must proclaim that he died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. This is our message to Muslims, and to the rest of the world, 'He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him' (John 3:36). Do Catholics and Moslems worship the same God?

 

[mj007]

Well all knowledge put together creates some kind of abstract picture. To me the mark of the beast is Artificial Intelligence, which 'being in the image of Man' (without the image of God element), is devoid of spiritual cognition or understanding, which is something only that which is created in the image of God is capable of.

Hello mj007,

We should actually use the Biblical Greek definition in order to understand what the word "Charagma" translated as "mark" is actually defined as:

=================================================

Strong's Concordance

charagma: a stamp, impress​

Original Word: χάραγμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: charagma
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ag-mah)
Short Definition: sculpture, a stamp, sign
Definition: sculpture; engraving, a stamp, sign.
HELPS Word-studies

5480 xáragma – properly, an engraving (etching); (figuratively) a mark providing undeniable identification, like a symbol giving irrefutable connection between parties.

5480 /xáragma ("brand-mark") was originally any impress on a coin or a seal, used by an engraver on a die (stamp, branding iron). 5480 (xáragma) later became "the identification-marker" (like with an owner's unique "brand-mark").

=================================================

That said, in seeing this vision of the future, John would have absolutely nothing from his period to compare to what he was seeing. The closest that he can come is "Charagma." Because there was no technology during John's time, he can't say,

"He causes all both rich and poor, great and small, free and slave to receive a device that will be inserted under the skin using a syringe that will allow the individual to electronically credit and debit their bank accounts."

But we who are living in the time frame of his vision, can read the scripture and understand what he was seeing and is referring to.

 

[Persuaded]

Then, my friend, why are you wasting your time reading these posts?

I find it very helpful to know what the religious world is teaching.

 

[Depleted]

What do you think the mark is Depleted? I honestly don't know but it sure sounds like some kind of technology.

My Dead Guys, (commentators I read seem to all have "dead" and "guys" in common lol) all thought it was the papacy.

Here are some other theories:
https://www.monergism.com/search?keywords=mark+of+the+beast&format=All

I really don't know either. Not enough evidence biblically to know. BUT here's my thinking.

When John wrote that letter, believers all had two things in common:
1. They were shunned by their people. The Jews by the Jewish community, the Gentiles by the Roman Empire, because you can believe anything you want except that there is only one God and he is not the emperor of Rome. And shunned meant no contact with family or friends, no ability to do business, no nation! You were treated as if you simply did not exist, even if you had did a whirling dervish dance inches from their face.

2. Rome was on a rampage. They were out to kill every single Christian in their empire. And they were frighteningly successful. They really did kill every Christian in Alexandria. (Egypt was part of the Roman Empire at that time.) They had already sacked and totally destroyed Jerusalem, to the point the temple wasn't merely gone -- the rubble of the huge outer court had bodies piled four feet high before it was knocked down. Since Jerusalem is on seven hills too, the butchering of that many people literally made the gutters ankle deep in blood. Totally, absolutely destroyed. AND, they were killing Christians to the tune of 100,000 per day.

Daring to say you believed Christ is God was a guaranteed way to get yourself killed. The only thing that stopped the deaths of all believers is they did the obvious thing -- ran away and hid.

For 200+ years.

Soooo, obvious question. Why would anyone back then care if someone, sometime in the far distant future, (and very far distant future, since it ain't here yet), might get some physical mark by something or someone named 666? If you were them, would that give you some kind of comfort? Counsel? Courage? Reason to live? What would you think of John's letter, if you were huddled together in a cave with half a dozen other believers knowing their were two dozen of you the day before?

They were dying by the ship load, day in and day out! They needed to know NOW that it was not in vain!

I think this future crap is crap because it always, always has everything to do with whatever nation the person who believes in it lives in. It's not about God! It's about being an American. Or British. Or Australian. Or wherever the person lives. It's a dystopian legend that has been growing and changing constantly for the last 200 years. It's the boogie man. It's the feeling of "whew, glad it's not me." It's a what-if that has never served a purpose other than personal satisfaction in fearing something, instead of facing God and praying for his help in changing to his good for his sake!

 

[Depleted]

*crickets*

That's what happens when you go so far off topic absolutely no one bothers to respond.

Kind of like expecting to buy bread at a car dealership.

(The civics forum is either "News" or "Misc.")

 

[hornetguy]

My Dead Guys, (commentators I read seem to all have "dead" and "guys" in common lol) all thought it was the papacy.

Here are some other theories:
https://www.monergism.com/search?keywords=mark+of+the+beast&format=All

I really don't know either. Not enough evidence biblically to know. BUT here's my thinking.

When John wrote that letter, believers all had two things in common:
1. They were shunned by their people. The Jews by the Jewish community, the Gentiles by the Roman Empire, because you can believe anything you want except that there is only one God and he is not the emperor of Rome. And shunned meant no contact with family or friends, no ability to do business, no nation! You were treated as if you simply did not exist, even if you had did a whirling dervish dance inches from their face.

2. Rome was on a rampage. They were out to kill every single Christian in their empire. And they were frighteningly successful. They really did kill every Christian in Alexandria. (Egypt was part of the Roman Empire at that time.) They had already sacked and totally destroyed Jerusalem, to the point the temple wasn't merely gone -- the rubble of the huge outer court had bodies piled four feet high before it was knocked down. Since Jerusalem is on seven hills too, the butchering of that many people literally made the gutters ankle deep in blood. Totally, absolutely destroyed. AND, they were killing Christians to the tune of 100,000 per day.

Daring to say you believed Christ is God was a guaranteed way to get yourself killed. The only thing that stopped the deaths of all believers is they did the obvious thing -- ran away and hid.

For 200+ years.

Soooo, obvious question. Why would anyone back then care if someone, sometime in the far distant future, (and very far distant future, since it ain't here yet), might get some physical mark by something or someone named 666? If you were them, would that give you some kind of comfort? Counsel? Courage? Reason to live? What would you think of John's letter, if you were huddled together in a cave with half a dozen other believers knowing their were two dozen of you the day before?

They were dying by the ship load, day in and day out! They needed to know NOW that it was not in vain!

I think this future crap is crap because it always, always has everything to do with whatever nation the person who believes in it lives in. It's not about God! It's about being an American. Or British. Or Australian. Or wherever the person lives. It's a dystopian legend that has been growing and changing constantly for the last 200 years. It's the boogie man. It's the feeling of "whew, glad it's not me." It's a what-if that has never served a purpose other than personal satisfaction in fearing something, instead of facing God and praying for his help in changing to his good for his sake!

I think this is much closer to accurate than any of the other "explanations" of John's vision.... it follows along much the same lines as what a friend of mine taught in a class on the Revelation... he was a divinity student, and a preacher and a prison minister for a bunch of years before stepping out of the pulpit ministry

Revelation was written in "encrypted language", almost a parable language, so that the non-believers wouldn't see it as a prediction of the fall/destruction of Rome that would eventually come. It was an encouragement to the horribly persecuted (as Lynn so accurately described) church, to hang on... that in the end, they would win...

well done, Lynn.... wasn't allowed to rep you...

 

[Ahwatukee]

I think this future crap is crap because it always, always has everything to do with whatever nation the person who believes in it lives in.

So let's compare: John said that the false prophet would cause all people to receive a mark in the right hand or forehead and that without it people would not be able to buy or sell. Now we have people being implanted with chips with one of the purposes being to make purchases and the entire world is using electronic crediting and debiting to make purchases. So we have a match! No other generation can claim fulfillment of what is happening today.

The fact is that, the information in Revelation is for every generation to know. But as far as the events of God's wrath, including the mark and the beasts reign, is directed at that generation that would begin to see these events being fulfilled.

a good example of this would be when King Ahaz was told by Isaiah that "the Lord himself will give you a sign, a virgin will conceive and give birth to a Son and his name will be called Immanuel (God with us). Well, this prophecy was given to Ahaz 700 hundred years before it took place and so the people of that time did not see its fulfillment. Therefore, why is it so difficult to understand that the events from Revelation chapter 4 onward are regarding end-time events for the generation existing at that time?


The irrefutable facts are that scripture states that a mark will go into the hand or forehead and without it, no one will be able to buy or sell. Today we have the technology where people are being implanted under the skin of the hand with RFID chips and one of its uses is making purchases. Today this has become a reality. And this technology will continue to evolve right up to when the antichrist/beast is revealed and it will then become his mark.

I personally don't see how anyone could not see the correlation and reality of this technology and the future fulfillment of this prophecy while it is staring them right in the face?

 

[Miri]

Lots of responses since I last posted.

Let me try to answer some of the questions.

I do have a lot to do with social services in my dealings with my aunt.

You don't need proof of ID to set up a utility account, well maybe proof of where you
live if that. Utility companies over here are privatised and they are only too willing to
take over your account and therefore you as a customer. There are always advertising
their services to get you to switch to them.

See posts 161 for examples of ID which can be used. You don't need to use all of them,
so no,you don't need a big wallet.

See post 159 for how your NHS number is used and tax code etc.

Yes there are survillance cameras, traffic cameras, security camera. But it's not
big brother, 99% of the population are ignored. They are only interested in those
committing crimes.

Yes a surprising high level of the various systems are still based on trust.
Even in my place of work, we use self declarations on application forms and on-line
forms and have cut back massively on paper evidence requirements.
But those declarations come with warning about making false declarations.

See post 173, most criminals aren't that clever, they get found out. While honest
people are ignored.

There has been a concerted effort in the UK over the last few years especially,
to target criminals and people who are non compliant. While just ignoring everyone else.
It's more effective than wasting resources on targeting everyone.

Oh and while certain organisations are joined up and share information, the data
protection act prevents that information from being abused. See post 159.
Although things aren't as joined up as you might think. There are still big
gaps in the joined up thinking.

But there again most people are not criminals so most don't abuse the systems.

 

[Depleted]

So let's compare: John said that the false prophet would cause all people to receive a mark in the right hand or forehead and that without it people would not be able to buy or sell. Now we have people being implanted with chips with one of the purposes being to make purchases and the entire world is using electronic crediting and debiting to make purchases. So we have a match! No other generation can claim fulfillment of what is happening today.

The fact is that, the information in Revelation is for every generation to know. But as far as the events of God's wrath, including the mark and the beasts reign, is directed at that generation that would begin to see these events being fulfilled.

a good example of this would be when King Ahaz was told by Isaiah that "the Lord himself will give you a sign, a virgin will conceive and give birth to a Son and his name will be called Immanuel (God with us). Well, this prophecy was given to Ahaz 700 hundred years before it took place and so the people of that time did not see its fulfillment. Therefore, why is it so difficult to understand that the events from Revelation chapter 4 onward are regarding end-time events for the generation existing at that time?


The irrefutable facts are that scripture states that a mark will go into the hand or forehead and without it, no one will be able to buy or sell. Today we have the technology where people are being implanted under the skin of the hand with RFID chips and one of its uses is making purchases. Today this has become a reality. And this technology will continue to evolve right up to when the antichrist/beast is revealed and it will then become his mark.

I personally don't see how anyone could not see the correlation and reality of this technology and the future fulfillment of this prophecy while it is staring them right in the face?

If you had bothered to read the rest, I did give several other possibilities that have already happened. But nope. It's all about you, because the Bible is all about what becomes of America in the dystopian future you've read so much fiction about already. You don't see because your blinder isn't merely a blinder. It's a blast-shield.
[video=youtube;owvpRNzoaVU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owvpRNzoaVU[/video]

 

[Sully]

Somebody's been reading too much Orwell, or watching Minority Report.....

Metropolis is all one needs to watch, free off of youtube settle in for over two hours of mind blown singularity.

 

[Sully]

My Dead Guys, (commentators I read seem to all have "dead" and "guys" in common lol) all thought it was the papacy.

Here are some other theories:
https://www.monergism.com/search?keywords=mark+of+the+beast&format=All

I really don't know either. Not enough evidence biblically to know. BUT here's my thinking.

When John wrote that letter, believers all had two things in common:
1. They were shunned by their people. The Jews by the Jewish community, the Gentiles by the Roman Empire, because you can believe anything you want except that there is only one God and he is not the emperor of Rome. And shunned meant no contact with family or friends, no ability to do business, no nation! You were treated as if you simply did not exist, even if you had did a whirling dervish dance inches from their face.

2. Rome was on a rampage. They were out to kill every single Christian in their empire. And they were frighteningly successful. They really did kill every Christian in Alexandria. (Egypt was part of the Roman Empire at that time.) They had already sacked and totally destroyed Jerusalem, to the point the temple wasn't merely gone -- the rubble of the huge outer court had bodies piled four feet high before it was knocked down. Since Jerusalem is on seven hills too, the butchering of that many people literally made the gutters ankle deep in blood. Totally, absolutely destroyed. AND, they were killing Christians to the tune of 100,000 per day.

Daring to say you believed Christ is God was a guaranteed way to get yourself killed. The only thing that stopped the deaths of all believers is they did the obvious thing -- ran away and hid.

For 200+ years.

Soooo, obvious question. Why would anyone back then care if someone, sometime in the far distant future, (and very far distant future, since it ain't here yet), might get some physical mark by something or someone named 666? If you were them, would that give you some kind of comfort? Counsel? Courage? Reason to live? What would you think of John's letter, if you were huddled together in a cave with half a dozen other believers knowing their were two dozen of you the day before?

They were dying by the ship load, day in and day out! They needed to know NOW that it was not in vain!

I think this future crap is crap because it always, always has everything to do with whatever nation the person who believes in it lives in. It's not about God! It's about being an American. Or British. Or Australian. Or wherever the person lives. It's a dystopian legend that has been growing and changing constantly for the last 200 years. It's the boogie man. It's the feeling of "whew, glad it's not me." It's a what-if that has never served a purpose other than personal satisfaction in fearing something, instead of facing God and praying for his help in changing to his good for his sake!

It sounds like you think Revelation is propaganda or some kind of programming.

 

[Depleted]

It sounds like you think Revelation is propaganda or some kind of programming.

No that's called "the modern concept of mark of the beast." I think Revelation was a revelation received from God to John to encourage God's people when they needed it most.

But, okay... and back to the regular broadcast of christian dystopian fiction posing as Bible.

 

[Locutus]

I know there is dispute over the date of the book of revelation (pre - 66 to 70 AD or around 96 AD). regardless John stated:

Rev 1:1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John.

Futurist "theologies" all have to explain away John's statement "must soon take place" because they dwell in unbelief.

And to impress on his readers the impending occurence ot these events he repeats the same "must soon take place" towards the very end of his revelation:


Rev 22:6 the angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”

I'll take John at his word rather than the prognostications of men...

May you understand John's words soon..

 

[trofimus]

So let's compare: John said that the false prophet would cause all people to receive a mark in the right hand or forehead and that without it people would not be able to buy or sell. Now we have people being implanted with chips with one of the purposes being to make purchases and the entire world is using electronic crediting and debiting to make purchases. So we have a match! No other generation can claim fulfillment of what is happening today.

I personally don't see how anyone could not see the correlation and reality of this technology and the future fulfillment of this prophecy while it is staring them right in the face?

I do not think you are reading Revelation properly:

-----

"It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,"
[so far so good with you theory]

"so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name."
[how exactly is a technological device making transactions the name of the beast or the number of its name?]

"This calls for wisdom."
[i.e. you cannot just literally apply what you read, you must think about it more]

"Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is χξϛ/χιϛ (600+60+6 or 600+10+6)."
[in your scenario, the number must be unique for every individual, any ID must be, so it is not the number of the beast anymore, but your number. According to Revelation, its the name of the beast and it can be read as 600 60 6]

-----

So I am afraid/glad that the proper reading of the text destroys all these "end time microchips visions".

 

[PrynceNY]

I do not think you are reading Revelation properly: ----- "It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads," [so far so good with you theory] "so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name." [how exactly is a technological device making transactions the name of the beast or the number of its name?] "This calls for wisdom." [i.e. you cannot just literally apply what you read, you must think about it more] "Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is χξϛ/χιϛ (600+60+6 or 600+10+6)." [in your scenario, the number must be unique for every individual, any ID must be, so it is not the number of the beast anymore, but your number. According to Revelation, its the name of the beast and it can be read as 600 60 6] ----- So I am afraid/glad that the proper reading of the text destroys all these "end time microchips visions".

I know this is towards another however just wanted to input the RFID chip is being used to condition the masses so they will accept the mark of the beast when the anti christ reveals himself. They have been talking about a cashless society for a while now

 

[trofimus]

Yes there are survillance cameras, traffic cameras, security camera. But it's not
big brother, 99% of the population are ignored. They are only interested in those
committing crimes.

There has been a concerted effort in the UK over the last few years especially,
to target criminals and people who are non compliant. While just ignoring everyone else.
It's more effective than wasting resources on targeting everyone.

I am afraid you are not right, the UK is the one with the most extreme mass and general citizens watching in the world.

Everything and everybody is watched, both legally and illegally, its actually easier than to target individuals. You simply collect everything and then search in this database what you want to find.

Britain has passed the 'most extreme surveillance law ever passed in a democracy' | ZDNet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_United_Kingdom

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...eillance-becomes-uk-law-with-barely-a-whimper

https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/23...ance-laws-explained-investigatory-powers-bill

One surveillance camera for every 11 people in Britain, says CCTV survey - Telegraph

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret-world-communications-nsa

https://theintercept.com/2016/10/17/gchq-mi5-investigatory-powers-tribunal-bulk-datasets/

Edward Snowden: GCHQ collected information from every visible user on the internet | The Independent

 

[J7]

100,000 a day?

When was the persecution this severe?

My Dead Guys, (commentators I read seem to all have "dead" and "guys" in common lol) all thought it was the papacy.

Here are some other theories:
https://www.monergism.com/search?keywords=mark+of+the+beast&format=All

I really don't know either. Not enough evidence biblically to know. BUT here's my thinking.

When John wrote that letter, believers all had two things in common:
1. They were shunned by their people. The Jews by the Jewish community, the Gentiles by the Roman Empire, because you can believe anything you want except that there is only one God and he is not the emperor of Rome. And shunned meant no contact with family or friends, no ability to do business, no nation! You were treated as if you simply did not exist, even if you had did a whirling dervish dance inches from their face.

2. Rome was on a rampage. They were out to kill every single Christian in their empire. And they were frighteningly successful. They really did kill every Christian in Alexandria. (Egypt was part of the Roman Empire at that time.) They had already sacked and totally destroyed Jerusalem, to the point the temple wasn't merely gone -- the rubble of the huge outer court had bodies piled four feet high before it was knocked down. Since Jerusalem is on seven hills too, the butchering of that many people literally made the gutters ankle deep in blood. Totally, absolutely destroyed. AND, they were killing Christians to the tune of 100,000 per day.

Daring to say you believed Christ is God was a guaranteed way to get yourself killed. The only thing that stopped the deaths of all believers is they did the obvious thing -- ran away and hid.

For 200+ years.

Soooo, obvious question. Why would anyone back then care if someone, sometime in the far distant future, (and very far distant future, since it ain't here yet), might get some physical mark by something or someone named 666? If you were them, would that give you some kind of comfort? Counsel? Courage? Reason to live? What would you think of John's letter, if you were huddled together in a cave with half a dozen other believers knowing their were two dozen of you the day before?

They were dying by the ship load, day in and day out! They needed to know NOW that it was not in vain!

I think this future crap is crap because it always, always has everything to do with whatever nation the person who believes in it lives in. It's not about God! It's about being an American. Or British. Or Australian. Or wherever the person lives. It's a dystopian legend that has been growing and changing constantly for the last 200 years. It's the boogie man. It's the feeling of "whew, glad it's not me." It's a what-if that has never served a purpose other than personal satisfaction in fearing something, instead of facing God and praying for his help in changing to his good for his sake!