Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him

[Absolutely]

Did you read the information that I put on the previous post about their exposure to the seals, trumpets and bowls? This demonstrates they are affected by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Here it is again. Please understand what I am saying in this post:

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"Never again will they hunger,

and never will they thirst;

nor will the sun beat down upon them,

nor any scorching heat."

Never again will they hunger:

This would be indicative of the 3rd seal rider on the black horse, where because of the shortage of food there will be world-wide famine, which will also affect the great tribulation saints. It would also be because the first and third trumpets, where a third of the trees are burned up (which would include fruit trees), as well as the second trumpet where a third of the fish over all the earth are killed, causing great food shortages, which would also affect the great tribulation saints.

Never will they thirst:

This would be indicative of the third trumpet where that star like a giant torch falls on a third of the rivers and fresh water causing many people to die from drinking it. This would also include the results of the second and third bowl judgments, where all of the oceans and fresh water is turned into literal blood. The GTS will also suffer from the lack of water.

Nor will the sun beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat:

The above is referring to the fourth bowl, where the sun is given power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat and searing them. This would also include the GTS simply because they will be on the earth.

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By the way, I never said that "saints are appointed to suffer wrath." They will simply be casualties because they will have not been believers or will have turned back to the world, living according to the sinful nature.

Yes, I agree with you that the GTS will suffer at the hands of the beast. However, as I have pointed out above and as you can see for yourself, the GTS will also be exposed to God's wrath. It will be impossible for them not to be affected by God's wrath, simply because they will be on the earth during that time. This is why Jesus warns believers to be faithful, watching and ready for His appearing to gather us, as described below:

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

I understand your points.
But to say those 3 things HAVE TO tie into trumpets and such is not conclusive.
Of course they are hungry and thirsty. They can not buy or sell and are most likely hiding from the ac.
The sun beating on them could also be. Indirectly connected.
It becomes a stretch when you invoked the trumpets on the saints.
The 144k are already sealed and in heaven before the trumpets ,and the remnant are caught up in the rev 14 harvest before the trumpets.
The gt is jacobs trouble,not the nt saints.
You then,under your placement,have the jews and saints harvested, before the trumpets,but saints under God's severety reserved for the demon possessed earthly inhabitants.

I believe,and have yet to see differently according to scripture,that the church is 99% dealt with before and right after the rapture as the ac is empowered to kill saints.
It says every human takes the mark,which i think is why the jews are swept away to petra and the devil is backhanded away from them supernaturally
The 2 witnesses also have more power than the devil,and note God brings them home BEFORE the trumpets.
I can not in any way see saints anywhere on the planet after the first year or 2 of the gt.
Note the martyrs in heaven are under the altar early in the gt, and are told to wait till their number is completed.
The innumerable number are martyrs. So many they can not be counted.
Not only that. But they are not under the altar,indicating they are complete. Plus the 144k are most likely caught up or martyred BEFORE rev 14 as is vividly depicted in rev 14
So i am gonna say no to the saints being on earth for the trumpets.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I can not in any way see saints anywhere on the planet after the first year or 2 of the gt.
[…]

How are you defining "the gt [the great tribulation]"? As the entire 7-yr trib, or more properly as [only referring to] the second half of the 7 years??

So i am gonna say no to the saints being on earth for the trumpets.

In my own study of the chronology, I see some of the [7] Trumpets to be taking place in the FIRST HALF of the seven years (namely, the first 4 Trumpets, with the 5th Trumpet falling at mid-trib), so that only the [Rev8:13's] "Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the THREE angels [Trumpets 5, 6, 7], which are yet to sound" take place [from the mid-point forward-->] IN the SECOND HALF.

I see the 2W's "1260 days" as STRADDLING the two halves (JUST AS these "7 Trumpets" do--so that means that the Trumpets began well before the mid-point, and even as far as the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" point in time, we see the Revelation 11:13b-14 "remnant" giving "glory to the God of heaven" [sounds as though this "remnant" is still living and the fact that they "gave glory to the God of heaven" sounds as though they are "righteous" ]).


Also, what do you think about where Daniel 12:12 says [of the still-living at that point in time], "BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days" [this one ENTERS the MK time period (the "BLESSED") in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing; compare with about 10 or so NT "BLESSED" passages referring to same] ...(comparable to the "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" passages, pertaining to their entrance into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth)? Thoughts?

 

[Melach]

So it looks like this [depicted; note the two HALVES of the 7-yr trib separated by the mid-point "ll"]:

[DOTL starts-->(SEAL 1)]l----[moon into blood]----ll--[<GREAT>]--------l[moon shall not give her light]


The "moon into blood" is the SIXTH SEAL (in the FIRST HALF), and the "moon shall not give her light" is at the END of the trib ("after the tribulation of those days," that is, after "the GREAT" portion of it [see also Matt24:21 and Rev7:14])



One major flaw is the EQUATING of these, that are in every way distinct.

good one. i didnt notice that detail. one says moon shall not give light one says turns into blood. its different

how do we know DOTL starts at first seal? does it say that somewhere?

 

[Nehemiah6]

how do we know DOTL starts at first seal? does it say that somewhere?

The Day of the Lord (LORD) = 6th and 7th seal judgments. This is in the future.

The first five seals were opened in the first century. But many natural disasters have been increasing in frequency and intensity (e.g. earthquakes)

 

[oyster67]

Will the trib saints miss the wedding the way the 5 foolish virgins did? They can choose the beheading, but as for me and my house, we will choose the wedding.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I understand your points.
But to say those 3 things HAVE TO tie into trumpets and such is not conclusive.
Of course they are hungry and thirsty. They can not buy or sell and are most likely hiding from the ac.
The sun beating on them could also be. Indirectly connected.
It becomes a stretch when you invoked the trumpets on the saints.
The 144k are already sealed and in heaven before the trumpets ,and the remnant are caught up in the rev 14 harvest before the trumpets.

It will be the entire worlds trouble at that time Absolutely and not just Jacob trouble!

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth.

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

Jesus is talking about the same time period, the time of God's wrath, which is when the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be poured out. These plagues of wrath make up the majority of the book of Revelation, which is made clear right in the first chapter:

"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."

"What must soon take place" is the events of God's wrath being poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, including the plagues that the two witnesses bring upon the earth.

The man of lawlessness is also known as the antichrist. He is the one who will establish that seven year covenant with Israel in completion of the seventy, seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, as stated in Dan.9:24-27. Therefore, since the revealing of the man of lawlessness is represented by that first seal rider on the white horse and the first seals begin the time of God's wrath, then when the man of lawlessness is revealed, it will be during the time of God's wrath, which is followed by the trumpets and then the bowls, which all make up God's wrath.

Do you actually believe that the mention of the sun not beating down on the GTS, nor any scorching heat" has nothing to with those plagues mentioned. They will experience those plagues of wrath, simply because they will be on the earth. They will suffer from the hunger, thirst and the power that God gives the sun, because of those plagues mentioned. It's not indirect and it's not a coincidence.

 

[Melach]

how can there be a pre-trib rapture since the wheat and weeds grow together until the end of the world? that would mean there is a separation before the end of the world

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

how can there be a pre-trib rapture since the wheat and weeds grow together until the end of the world? that would mean there is a separation before the end of the world

I covered some of that in my Post #21 of this thread (on Tues, Apr 2):

https://christianchat.com/threads/c...our-being-gathered-to-him.184211/post-3894495

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I might add (what I'd also put elsewhere):

""the end [singular] of the age [singular]" that the disciples asked Jesus about in Matt24:3 (and His response follows) was based on what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (when the angels will "REAP"). I do not believe that is at the GWTj, but at His Second Coming to the earth (just as in the Olivet Discourse)."

____________

"the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (not the end of the world) refers to "the age [singular]" they were standing in and speaking out from [not to be conflated with "this present age [singular]"/"this present evil age [singular]" of the later epistles (they were yet uninformed about this)]; and Jesus describes it (if you will) in His response in the Olivet Discourse (where STARTING with "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]," which correlate with the SEALS of Revelation 6, describe "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" that pertains to "those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom was promised" [the SUBJECT being covered in the Olivet Discourse (NOT our Rapture)]--That is, ALL of it is FOLLOWING our Rapture [ALL "SEALS"/"beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]," including the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Mt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'," the "whose coming" of 2Th2:9a re: "man of sin" "IN HIS TIME" [Dan9:27a(26)--"for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"; "the prince THAT SHALL COME"])

 

[Lanolin]

Hello Lanolin,

I have not ignored verse. I just did not comment on it. Below is verse 5 thru 8

"Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival. "

So Paul reminds the Thessalonians that he told him about these things while he was with them in person. So let's break down the scripture. The man of lawlessness and the full force of sin, is currently being restrained until it is time for him to be revealed. The restrainer is none other than the Holy Spirit. When it is time for the man of lawlessness/antichrist to be revealed, then the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way, i.e. He will no longer be restraining the antichrist. When Holy Spirit as the restrainer is taken out of the way, then all believers who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit must also be taken out of the way i.e. the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him.

Though the letter was written to the Thessalonians, since neither has the Lord come to gather His church, nor has the apostasy nor the man of lawlessness been revealed, then the information regarding the man of lawless is to every generation up until he is revealed. Therefore, in answer to your question regarding verse 8, Paul speaking about when that man of lawlessness is revealed and when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, He will destroy him by the brightness of His coming by casting both the man of lawlessness/antichrist and the false prophet, alive into the lake of fire according to Rev.19:20.

In short, what Paul told the Thessalonians in regards to the revealing of the man of lawlessness hasn't happened yet, even for us at this present time. Therefore, those events are still future.

According to 1 Thess.4:16j, the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are alive in Christ will be changed and caught up with them. Then the apostasy will occur and the man of lawlessness will be revealed and the time of God's wrath will begin, also called "the day of the Lord." It is the "day of the Lord" that Paul was reassuring the Thessalonians that had no happened yet and not the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him.




Your on-gong error, is not recognizing the difference between the Lord's appearing to gather the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. These are two completely different events. The gathering of the church takes place prior to the revealing of the man of lawlessness and God's wrath, where the Lord's return to the earth to end the age takes place after the revealing of the man of lawlessness and after God's wrath has completed.

No its not error our God is big enough to come and smite the wicked while gathering his servants on the same day, to reveal to us His mighty power. Thats how we know its Jesus.

Was the passover and the ten plagues happening at the same time. Well yes. GOd didnt get the isralites out then send the ten plagues. He sent the ten plagues, protected the israelites at the same time and got them out of egypt.

 

[Lanolin]

Noahs ark...he didnt rescue Noah, squireel him away somewhere dry and then send the flood. He actually built an ark that floated on top of the flood. They were in the flood! For 40 days and 40 nights!

Lot was living in sodom right up to the time of the destruction when the angels got them out! He didnt get Lot out years before and then send fire and brimstone. It was the same day.

 

[Melach]

Noahs ark...he didnt rescue Noah, squireel him away somewhere dry and then send the flood. He actually built an ark that floated on top of the flood. They were in the flood! For 40 days and 40 nights!

Lot was living in sodom right up to the time of the destruction when the angels got them out! He didnt get Lot out years before and then send fire and brimstone. It was the same day.

what you said is actually words of Jesus: this is in luke 17 completely debunks the pre-trib rapture.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Noahs ark...he didnt rescue Noah, squireel him away somewhere dry and then send the flood. He actually built an ark that floated on top of the flood. They were in the flood! For 40 days and 40 nights!

Lot was living in sodom right up to the time of the destruction when the angels got them out! He didnt get Lot out years before and then send fire and brimstone. It was the same day.

… and these are set in the CONTEXT of His [speaking of] His Second Coming to the earth (NOT our Rapture ), just like in Matthew 24:37-51 (and its parallels). There will be "saints" WITHIN the tribulation period (having come to faith AFTER our Rapture), and that is what these speak to.


[ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/etc" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth, to judge and to reign (and NOT our Rapture)]


In past posts I wrote of the Lk18:8 [context chpt 17-end] and its phrase "[avenge] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Again, compare Daniel 2:35 [also 7:27] with Genesis 9:1 "fill/filled [active] the [whole] earth"... Noah entered that new time period in his mortal body capable of reproducing/having offspring, and "as the days of Noah were, SO ALSO SHALL the coming of the Son of man be" (that is, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, promised to Israel [sure, "Gentiles" will also be "BLESSED" to ENTER, also in their mortal bodies, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth]).

The ones "taken" are taken away in judgment; the ones "left" are left to enter the earthly MK age (just as in Noah's day) [this is NOT a "Rapture" context]

 

[Melach]

… and these are set in the CONTEXT of His [speaking of] His Second Coming to the earth (NOT our Rapture ), just like in Matthew 24:37-51 (and its parallels). There will be "saints" WITHIN the tribulation period (having come to faith AFTER our Rapture), and that is what these speak to.


[ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/etc" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth, to judge and to reign (and NOT our Rapture)]


In past posts I wrote of the Lk18:8 [context chpt 17-end] and its phrase "[avenge] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"

it is in the context of the "rapture". same day lot went out = rapture, it rained fire = second coming. rapture is at the second coming. "those who are alive and remain to his coming" coming. coming coming. no verse teaches 1 thess 4:15-17 is a coming in the clouds to gather the church and then go back to heaven. thats just read in to the verse. i believe that is eisegesis my friend.

same as in 2 thessalonians 1:6-8.
same as in parable of wheat and weeds
same as in parable of sheep and goats
same as in parable of fish cought in a net

its always the same idea, as it was in the days of noah/lot they were building giving in marriage eating drinking then suddenly Jesus returns and they are punished with everlasting destrction and the saved are given rest. (2thes1:6-8)

you have to do so much work to make it fit when the parables themselves are so simple anyone can understand it and receive it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

you have to do so much work to make it fit when the parables themselves are so simple anyone can understand it and receive it.

When I wrote (in one of those last posts) about the parallels (of Matthew 24:37-51), Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 is one of those parallels, and there it makes clear "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal; He will be "RETURN[-ing]" as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom" (WITH His "already-wed BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" Rev19:7 "aorist" IN HEAVEN), He will not be "RETURN[-ing]" to MARRY the "TEN VIRGINS [/bridesmaids; PLURAL]" NOR even FIVE of them.

So you've said at least ONE thing that is true : even my five year old children (when they were five-yrs old) understood that a bridegroom does not MARRY FIVE VIRGINS! (that's what sickos believe! lol )



Be not confused, brother. (too many people wrench things out of their CONTEXT to fit their own ideas of what is being conveyed there; or lump everything into one mish-mash of mush)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

no verse teaches 1 thess 4:15-17 is a coming in the clouds to gather the church and then go back to heaven. thats just read in to the verse. i believe that is eisegesis my friend.

The "Rapture" (as we call it) pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23], not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints). It is apparent, by what you have written here ^ , that you do not understand the PURPOSE of our Rapture (which is referred to in far more than "the verse" [ONE verse, the only one most acknowledge refers to it])

Keep studying.

 

[Absolutely]

How are you defining "the gt [the great tribulation]"? As the entire 7-yr trib, or more properly as [only referring to] the second half of the 7 years??



In my own study of the chronology, I see some of the [7] Trumpets to be taking place in the FIRST HALF of the seven years (namely, the first 4 Trumpets, with the 5th Trumpet falling at mid-trib), so that only the [Rev8:13's] "Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the THREE angels [Trumpets 5, 6, 7], which are yet to sound" take place [from the mid-point forward-->] IN the SECOND HALF.

I see the 2W's "1260 days" as STRADDLING the two halves (JUST AS these "7 Trumpets" do--so that means that the Trumpets began well before the mid-point, and even as far as the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" point in time, we see the Revelation 11:13b-14 "remnant" giving "glory to the God of heaven" [sounds as though this "remnant" is still living and the fact that they "gave glory to the God of heaven" sounds as though they are "righteous" ]).


Also, what do you think about where Daniel 12:12 says [of the still-living at that point in time], "BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days" [this one ENTERS the MK time period (the "BLESSED") in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing; compare with about 10 or so NT "BLESSED" passages referring to same] ...(comparable to the "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" passages, pertaining to their entrance into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth)? Thoughts?

The remnant is most likely Jews.
It says " that city"

 

[Melach]

The "Rapture" (as we call it) pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23], not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints). It is apparent, by what you have written here ^ , that you do not understand the PURPOSE of our Rapture (which is referred to in far more than "the verse" [ONE verse, the only one most acknowledge refers to it])

Keep studying.

it says the weeds and wheat grow together until the end. then are separated. if there is a rapture before that, what Jesus said isnt true anymore.

the reason there is a rapture is no secret, its because its resurrection. and because some are alive at the time of Jesus' return, they need to be changed instantly, since they have not yet died so resurrection isnt possible.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

its always the same idea, […]

Let me ask you this, do you believe the following bolded portion refers to what takes place IN the tribulation period (as I do)? (or some other time, like, presently?):

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (note 10-12 especially, in bold) -

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with [/in] all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.