Concerning Time and a Few Thougts

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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#24
Rev 13:8

message too short
Thank you.

"and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain." ESV

I have looked at biblehub.com and it seems only KJV and NIV have "slain before the foundation of the world".

I looked also to Greek and it seems both ways of translation are possible. I would go with the normal one - our names were written in the book before the foundation of the world. We know it from other places, so I would stick to this.
 
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#25
1. I'll take a partial agreement any time, lol.


2. ERRORS OF EQUIVOCATION:
Regarding the incidents with Joshua and Hezekiah... I think we have several problems of equivocation (one being a "categorical error") ... God halted a physical thing call the sun, not a dimension which we call time.


A. EQUIVOCATION ERROR:
We "measure" time by the course of the sun, or by a sun dial, or even by a watch... but altering the MEASURING DEVICES does not mean you have altered THE THING MEASURED.
A1. If I alter my clock... that does not mean I've altered the flow of time.
A2. If I alter a sun dial... that does not mean I've altered the flow of time.
A3. If I've altered THE PATH OF THE SUN... that still does not mean I've altered the flow of time.


B. Categorical Mistake: The SUN is a PHYSICAL ENTITY that exists in time and space... TIME is a DIMENSION in which things exist.. we have an ENTIRE DIFFERENCE OF CATEGORY... they simply aren't the same.
B1. They aren't the same.
B2. They are in different categories of being.
B3. The PHYSICAL SUN simply has nothing to do with the DIMENSION of TIME



3. For future reference, here are the Biblical texts for the incidents.

Jos 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.
Jos 10:14 There has been no day like it before or since, when the LORD heeded the voice of a man, for the LORD fought for Israel.

Isa 38:7 "This shall be the sign to you from the LORD, that the LORD will do this thing that he has promised:
Isa 38:8 Behold, I will make the shadow cast by the declining sun on the dial of Ahaz turn back ten steps." So the sun turned back on the dial the ten steps by which it had declined.

2Ki 20:8 And Hezekiah said to Isaiah, "What shall be the sign that the LORD will heal me, and that I shall go up to the house of the LORD on the third day?"
2Ki 20:9 And Isaiah said, "This shall be the sign to you from the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he has promised: shall the shadow go forward ten steps, or go back ten steps?"
2Ki 20:10 And Hezekiah answered, "It is an easy thing for the shadow to lengthen ten steps. Rather let the shadow go back ten steps."
2Ki 20:11 And Isaiah the prophet called to the LORD, and he brought the shadow back ten steps, by which it had gone down on the steps of Ahaz.
I think I disagree. The sun and moon were MADE for the marking of the passing of time. We have no way to gauge time other than by them. If it is suddenly 8 a.m. instead of 1 p.m., then you will be reliving the previous 5 hours again. Whether you want to describe time as a thing, a dimension or a curse - if you relive 5 hours of it, you went backwards in it.
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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Australia
#26
What do you think it measures? :rolleyes: On second thought, does anyone really know what it is?

If anyone has the time they ought to read Ephesians 5:16 & Colossians 4:5
When I say time I basically mean as a means of measuring where the sun is.
 
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#27
Thank you.

"and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain." ESV

I have looked at biblehub.com and it seems only KJV and NIV have "slain before the foundation of the world".

I looked also to Greek and it seems both ways of translation are possible. I would go with the normal one - our names were written in the book before the foundation of the world. We know it from other places, so I would stick to this.
Geez buddy, you will already consume the major portion of my day with the other thread of yours on manuscripts haha!
I wanted to thank depleted and angela for their very helpful posts there, but I didn't speak up because I'm a butter knife with nothing to add to that thread.

Honestly though, it's not your fault that my day is now mapped out. I read the NLT for about nine years because I couldn't understand the other translations - especially KJV gave me a headache and confused me. But then, one day, I found two major mistakes in NLT. They weren't silly - they were visceral mistakes that greatly affected my understanding. They were actually so big as to affect my...macro-understanding. Trying to find the words here...they were doctrinal game changers.

So I began reading NASB instead because the two mistakes weren't in it. And it was difficult because the verses I knew were all from NLT and so finding what I wanted was sometimes just impossible. That finally drove me to go online (which I resisted all my life because I grew up with ink and paper in my hands - so I am both a butter knife AND an old dog) because I could find the verse in NLT and then go to my NASB to read it there.

This next part is to do with the larger sweep of scripture, which butter knives seem to get but more scholarly people sometimes don't. I think you have to be dull to see it.

I looked up the verse in my NASB, but I had to first look it up online in a different translation, as usual, because it isn't worded that way in my dang NASB even though it's how my mind remembers it! And it says in NASB as you've said - our names were written in the book from the foundation of the world.

However, the broader sweep includes God resting because all His work was finished. And it involves an entire OT that tells of the slain Lamb. And clear back in Genesis it says what will happen. So the plan was in place and my name was in the Lambs book from the foundation of the world. Do you see what I mean? God does not live in time as we do. So to say my name was recorded in the Lambs book of life from the foundation of the world when I had not yet been means that the Lamb was also slain before He had been (been born and died.)

This is why I didn't post in your other thread. Because steak knives sometimes don't see the broader sweep that I somehow do. So I think I am probably only succeeding in making you crazy...I guess if you can't see what I mean I should just stop now. If I seem nuts to you it's okay. If you saw the way I research a word your head would probably explode! :D
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#28
Geez buddy, you will already consume the major portion of my day with the other thread of yours on manuscripts haha!
I wanted to thank depleted and angela for their very helpful posts there, but I didn't speak up because I'm a butter knife with nothing to add to that thread.

Honestly though, it's not your fault that my day is now mapped out. I read the NLT for about nine years because I couldn't understand the other translations - especially KJV gave me a headache and confused me. But then, one day, I found two major mistakes in NLT. They weren't silly - they were visceral mistakes that greatly affected my understanding. They were actually so big as to affect my...macro-understanding. Trying to find the words here...they were doctrinal game changers.

So I began reading NASB instead because the two mistakes weren't in it. And it was difficult because the verses I knew were all from NLT and so finding what I wanted was sometimes just impossible. That finally drove me to go online (which I resisted all my life because I grew up with ink and paper in my hands - so I am both a butter knife AND an old dog) because I could find the verse in NLT and then go to my NASB to read it there.

This next part is to do with the larger sweep of scripture, which butter knives seem to get but more scholarly people sometimes don't. I think you have to be dull to see it.

I looked up the verse in my NASB, but I had to first look it up online in a different translation, as usual, because it isn't worded that way in my dang NASB even though it's how my mind remembers it! And it says in NASB as you've said - our names were written in the book from the foundation of the world.

However, the broader sweep includes God resting because all His work was finished. And it involves an entire OT that tells of the slain Lamb. And clear back in Genesis it says what will happen. So the plan was in place and my name was in the Lambs book from the foundation of the world. Do you see what I mean? God does not live in time as we do. So to say my name was recorded in the Lambs book of life from the foundation of the world when I had not yet been means that the Lamb was also slain before He had been (been born and died.)

This is why I didn't post in your other thread. Because steak knives sometimes don't see the broader sweep that I somehow do. So I think I am probably only succeeding in making you crazy...I guess if you can't see what I mean I should just stop now. If I seem nuts to you it's okay. If you saw the way I research a word your head would probably explode! :D
You are very welcome to post your experiences or opinions in my thread :) Look, when KJV Only guys can, you surely can too :)

I actually do not use any English translation in a common life, because English is not my native language.

But NASB seems to be quite precise, modern translation. The question is whether the source Greek text used by NASB should be accepted or not... or the source used by KJV... or something else. Yeah, thats the question.
 
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#29
You are very welcome to post your experiences or opinions in my thread :) Look, when KJV Only guys can, you surely can too :)

I actually do not use any English translation in a common life, because English is not my native language.

But NASB seems to be quite precise, modern translation. The question is whether the source Greek text used by NASB should be accepted or not... or the source used by KJV... or something else. Yeah, thats the question.
Well, believe me, we butter knives are very grateful for the steak knives like you and angela who help us with mistranslations, or even just translations that don't give the BEST meaning in our current language. And I'm glad to know that you believe I am reading a pretty good translation now! Maybe I will just not bother myself with all of it and just stick to the NASB for now. :)
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#30
I think I disagree. The sun and moon were MADE for the marking of the passing of time. We have no way to gauge time other than by them. If it is suddenly 8 a.m. instead of 1 p.m., then you will be reliving the previous 5 hours again. Whether you want to describe time as a thing, a dimension or a curse - if you relive 5 hours of it, you went backwards in it.
Well yes the time in ancient times before the mechanical means of telling time, early man used the sun and Moon as well as other signs in the sky especially at night the Big Dipper was used the star clock. cloud cover either in the day time or night time added issues...
 
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BeyondET

Guest
#31
When I say time I basically mean as a means of measuring where the sun is.
the sun doesn't move, it's the planet that moves around the sun. the sun does rotate not like a solid mass because it's a gas but the gases do move around on the sun...
 
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#32
Well yes the time in ancient times before the mechanical means of telling time, early man used the sun and Moon as well as other signs in the sky especially at night the Big Dipper was used the star clock. cloud cover either in the day time or night time added issues...
Good morning, ET!
Those mechanical means of telling time are not extremely reliable. Watch parts break and lose or gain minutes, needing to be reset, and digital clocks go out when electricity does. The sun and moon do not break, so when your mechanical or digital goes out you look up in the sky to see where the sun or moon are to gauge what time it is close to!
 
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BeyondET

Guest
#33
Advancement in technology today time can be known by the light flashes in a certain type of atom, most people have heard of a atomic clock that's what it is the measurement of light flashes within a atom...
 
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BeyondET

Guest
#34
Good morning, ET!
Those mechanical means of telling time are not extremely reliable. Watch parts break and lose or gain minutes, needing to be reset, and digital clocks go out when electricity does. The sun and moon do not break, so when your mechanical or digital goes out you look up in the sky to see where the sun or moon are to gauge what time it is close to!
Well the lunar year is shorter from the solar year they don't line up, the earth has a elongated path around the sun, the moon doesn't spin among other things. the best measure of time is in a Atom it is extremely reliable...
 
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BeyondET

Guest
#35
These natural variations is why the mechanical clocks and calanders need adjustments...
 
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#36
Well the lunar year is shorter from the solar year they don't line up, the earth has a elongated path around the sun, the moon doesn't rotate among other things. the best measure of time is in a Atom it is extremely reliable...
You may have gone way over my head here! :)
This is interesting....does this atomic time denote in some way whether it is a.m. or p.m.?
The answer will probably go even further over my head! :D
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#37
These natural variations is why the mechanical clocks and calanders need adjustments...
The natural variations are even very reliable. We readjust our inventions to Gods' natural variations, which repeat reliably. :)
Yes, I know I think simply and not in a scholarly manner. I hope it doesn't make you crazy.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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#38
What do you all think about Peter's use of HASTENING the coming of the day of GOD..?
Rev. The Theme of the Book

“I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice,
as of a trumpet” (Revelation 1:10).

A single verse thunders to us the theme of this book: the gloomy Day of the Lord.
Yet people stumble over this verse—causing them to misunderstand the entire message!


Revelation 1:10 and over 30 other prophecies mention the terrible
Day of the Lord that will decisively conclude [this age]! not the world

The Prophet Zephaniah says this time is hastening greatly, or exceedingly!

The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice
of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly” (Zephaniah 1:13-14).


Notice the phrase “the voice.” The Bible is a lot more specific than people think.
A Zephaniah type is delivering a strong warning about the Day of the Lord today.

“The voice” precedes the arrival of the Day of the Lord,
which is now speeding toward us as fast as a rocket launching into space.


“And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand
to heaven,And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and
the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea,
and the things which are therein,

that there should be time no longer” (Revelation 10:5-6).


“Time no longer” should be “no more delay.”
A specific event took place that caused world events to speed up rapidly.

-

“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil,
and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth,
and his angels were cast out with him” (Revelation 12:9).


God cast down Satan and confined him to this Earth. Satan and his demons are
no longer free to roam the universe, so they have been creating chaos in this
world like mankind has never seen before!
 
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BeyondET

Guest
#39
You may have gone way over my head here! :)
This is interesting....does this atomic time denote in some way whether it is a.m. or p.m.?
The answer will probably go even further over my head! :D
It can count the time within the am or pm, the sun never sleeps but the earth does... what tells us there is light or no light is the earth spinning it's so happen that man has determined what to name these periods of light and night calling them am and pm it's just wording..
 
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#40
It can count the time within the am or pm, the sun never sleeps but the earth does... what tells us there is light or no light is the earth spinning it's so happen that man has determined what to name these periods of light and night calling them am and pm it's just wording..
Its interesting for sure. But if the electricity stops, I wonder how men would have atoms keep telling them whether it is daytime where they reside or if it is before or after noontime.☺