Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

[Lucy-Pevensie]

You sound too close minded so dont worry about it. It is also alot of time to invest (as you put it) to argue and go around in circles.

I used to catch Perry Stone's program somewhat regularly on GODTV, I'm not prejudiced against him.

His pretribulation monologue in this video is the same presentation we always get from pretrib teachers.
How detailed do you want to get about it? He makes a lot of claims without reading a scriptural backing
for his statements. He just expects us to believe him.

 

[cv5]

Because that's when sacrifice ceased.

Might I direct you to TDW. He can help you out with that.

Preterism of the 70AD kind is a heresy IMO. Easily debunked.

 

[Evmur]

So, it sounds to me as though you are saying that when Jesus said, "and I will raise him up IN THE LAST DAY," that He wasn't referencing BELIEVERS [/the righteous]??

(John 6:44, for example - John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (biblehub.com) )

John 6:40, for another example - "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at [/in] the last day. " - https://biblehub.com/john/6-44.htm





Hmmm... your viewpoint is a head-scratcher. lol

And you will scratch your head, ponder a little....

Do you believe in the Rapture? the Jews didn't know anything about any rapture, even the apostles wrestled to understand Paul' s teaching on the Day of the Lord lasting a thousand years, Peter said they were things hard to be understood.

Only Paul understood the Rapture, only Paul understood that the church was to be planted in all the nations, the other apostles believed that Jerusalem was to be the hub and from whence the Kingdom was to be rolled out. They believed the Kingdom was begun.

Paul understood that the Jews were to be diminished as the people of God for a season and that there was to be a delay.

The Rapture is made necessary by the presence of the church among the nations, God cannot pour His wrath upon the church.

So "the last day" can be interpreted 2 ways.

For the church the last day is the day of Christ, when He comes to gather us. For the Jew the last day is at the end of the heavenly reign of Messiah, that is at the end of the 1, 000 years.

But whereas the Jewish believers thought they were in the new reign there was to be this delay, this parenthesis, this gap which is the church age.

There is no contradiction, both understandings are correct ... but in their time.

The second understanding is to know the scripture that a day with the Lord is as a 1, 000 years.

 

[Cameron143]

Might I direct you to TDW. He can help you out with that.

Preterism of the 70AD kind is a heresy IMO. Easily debunked.

I appreciate the assist but I'm not struggling for truth on such things. I read his take. I'm just surprised that you quote a scripture that speaks to sacrifice ceasing but somehow it doesn't correlate to the time when sacrifices actually ceased.
And if heresy means having a different understanding of scripture then show me someone who is not one.

 

[Evmur]

Okay, what I'm gathering from reading your post (correct me if I've misunderstood you), you believe that "the church will be gathered to her eternal home" (via "rapture") AT THE TIME OF REV19 (Christ's Second Coming)? Is that right?
And that, FOLLOWING this is when "God's wrath" unfolds upon the earth (I assume you mean, by means of the "7 Vials"??), which you believe take place AFTER the events shown in Rev19 (Christ's coming / His Second Coming commonly-called), which "wrath" will then/thereafter last FOR SEVEN YEARS? Am I reading your viewpoint correctly?

I have some good advice which you guys may or may not like.

First form your eschatological views from studying the plain and open scripture of which there is an abundance in both old and new testaments. Only when you are straight in your understanding of the open scriptures go on to read Revelations. Make Revelations fit into the plain and open scriptures which it does, don't try to make the plain scriptures to fit Revelations.

 

[cv5]

I'm just surprised that you quote a scripture that speaks to sacrifice ceasing but somehow it doesn't correlate to the time when sacrifices actually ceased.

Because it is prophecy. Of the future-telling kind. Lots of that going on in the Bible bro.

And the Second Coming is INEXTRICABLY LINKED to the 70th week of Daniel. As in happening at the end of it.

How people miss that simply beggars the imagination.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I just enjoy how many make the claim the Rapture Paul describes in Chapter 4 is pre-wrath because they claim that is what the evidence tells them.

But notice how they leave off the last Verse of Chapter 3 that describes the SECOND Coming like we read in Matthew 24 from Jesus.

Anyone with a brain knows Paul introduced the SECOND Coming in Chapter 3 and then explains the process in Chapter 4.

To twist Scripture any other way is for the purpose of deceiving oneself and others.

 

[Cameron143]

Because it is prophecy. Of the future-telling kind. Lots of that going on in the Bible bro.

And the Second Coming is INEXTRICABLY LINKED to the 70th week of Daniel. As in happening at the end of it.

How people miss that simply beggars the imagination.

It was future when it was written. How about Daniel 2 and the interpretation of the dream. Have the 4 empires ceased or still to come?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Absolutely not. It is relatively near future. Like less than a generation IMO.

How did you ever come to that conclusion? Never in my life have I believed in any preterist theory. Fortunately.

Hey! We agree on something. Phew

 

[cv5]

It was future when it was written. How about Daniel 2 and the interpretation of the dream. Have the 4 empires ceased or still to come?

I have Daniel all sorted out bro. It is a masterwork. The key to all end-time prophecy.

Regarding TDW, we see eye-to-eye on pretty much everything as far as eschatology is concerned.

The only matter where we differ is that of the fallen angels begetting Nephilim via the daughters of men (which is what I think happened). Quadruple redundancy in the Bible BTW. And the kicker is.......there WERE in fact inhuman giants running all over the levant from at least Abraham's time. Moses, Joshua, Chedorlaomer, Esau, David.....they were all slaying the plague of giants.

I really don't see any way around it.

 

[Cameron143]

I have Daniel all sorted out bro. It is a masterwork. The key to all end-time prophecy.

Regarding TDW, we see eye-to-eye on pretty much everything as far as eschatology is concerned.

The only matter where we differ is that of the fallen angels begetting Nephilim via the daughters of men (which is what I think happened). Quadruple redundancy in the Bible BTW. And the kicker is.......there WERE in fact inhuman giants running all over the levant from at least Abraham's time. Moses, Joshua, Chedorlaomer, Esau, David.....they were all slaying the plague of giants.

I really don't see any way around it.

Well you changed the subject and didn't respond to my question but I do appreciate you taking the time to respond.

 

[cv5]

Well you changed the subject and didn't respond to my question but I do appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Bro.....if there is any book of the bible I know.....its Daniel. That was maybe the first thing I studied.

In fact, understanding Daniel is key as regards the pre-trib rapture.

Debating with a 70 AD preterist makes no sense. Because you either apprehend the big prophetic picture in its fullness. Or you do not.

 

[Cameron143]

Bro.....if there is any book of the bible I know.....its Daniel. That was maybe the first thing I studied.

In fact, understanding Daniel is key as regards the pre-trib rapture.

Debating with a 70 AD preterist makes no sense. Because you either apprehend the big prophetic picture in its fullness. Or you do not.

Fair enough. Blessings.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I just enjoy how many make the claim the Rapture Paul describes in Chapter 4 is pre-wrath because they claim that is what the evidence tells them.

But notice how they leave off the last Verse of Chapter 3 that describes the SECOND Coming like we read in Matthew 24 from Jesus.

Anyone with a brain knows Paul introduced the SECOND Coming in Chapter 3 and then explains the process in Chapter 4.

Hello! [Dense-one, or dim-wit here! (me!)]



Here's how I'm seeing that verse you speak of, referring to 1Th3:13 (b/f the chpt 4 "rapture / caught up / snatch" verse)...

Consider:


Consider the following versions of this verse (and see how it compares with another verse or verses I'll place below this verse):

1Thess3:13 -

International Standard Version

Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.


Literal Emphasis Translation

To confirm your hearts, blameless in holiness before the face of our God and Father in the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. Amen.


Weymouth New Testament

Thus He will build up your characters, so that you will be faultlessly holy in the presence of our God and Father at the Coming of our Lord Jesus with all His holy ones.




Consider HOW THIS ^ CORRESPONDS with the following verse (I've posted numerous times):

2Cor4:14 -

Holman Christian Standard Bible

We know that the One who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and present us with you. ["present us" means... WHAT? WHERE?]



[and]

1Cor6:14 [recalling also v.3! in same context] -

Berean Literal Bible

And by His power God has both raised up the Lord, and will raise us out.






Are we sure which direction 1Th3:13 is speaking to, when it says, "IN the coming [/presence / parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ with [accompanied-with] all His holy ones [set-apart ones]"?


For example, in Dan7:13 it says,

Young's Literal Translation

I was seeing in the visions of the night, and lo, with the clouds of the heavens as a son of man was one coming, and unto the Ancient of Days he hath come, and before Him they have brought him near.




It seems to me that (unless we consider ALL the related passages Paul is covering in all his epistles... and there are many), that we could just be assuming things that could be incorrect... I mean, what I've presented above (PLUS the fact of what 1Cor6:3 says in a close-context of one of the verses I supplied) sure seems to correspond more with what we see in Revelation 4-5 (with the "24 elders" [wearing "crowns" and sitting on "thrones"] saying "hast redeemed US to God by Thy blood out-of EVERY..." in a scene just b/f Jesus opens the first seal [the AC / man of sin] at the START of the "7 yr period"... yeah.)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I forgot to include one that I'm usually adding in with my posts (on this Subject):

1Cor12:12 -

Literal Standard Version
For even as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also [is] the Christ,

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Precious friend, I have done this Several times; IF you don't investigate/study
the 'links' given, then that is between you and God, ok. So, we'll try:

a small portion (ELEVEN Scriptures) of God's Word Of Truth, 'Right Divided':

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I:

...The Second Coming, According to earthly Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II:

...According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:

CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)
----------

Exactly HOW then is this "OUTSIDE of, OR misunderstood (wrongly
DIVIDED) Scriptures?
====================
Precious friend(s):

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

View attachment 247650

Exactly my point there are no scriptures so you have to bloviate and go in a circle

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You are right on. Do not give heed to fables.

yeah instead all we need to do is stick with the truth

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And like your saying we need to not let this happen

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we can’t let modern distorted doctrines take away what Jesus said in the gospel it’s forever true. Anytime anyone is explaining things the opposite of the lord we know who to hear and believe

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and how the enemy is trying to get to us

“And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard,

Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭4:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

awe have to protect and hold on to Jesus words of actual and eternal truth and be believers because many are present to take us off course distort the truth lead us away

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1 Thessalonians 2:19 -

Literal Emphasis Translation
For who is our hope or joy or crown [stephanos] of boasting? Or is it not even you- before the face [G1715 (same word as is used in 1Th3:13, btw)] of our Lord Jesus in His coming [parousia / presence]?





[note: by contrast the "before" word (used 2x) in Rev14, is this one:

HELPS Word-studies
1799 enṓpion – literally, "in the eye (of God)," used for how all things happen under God's watch, i.e. in keeping with His plan built on His absolute knowledge. ]

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Hello! [Dense-one, or dim-wit here! (me!)]



Here's how I'm seeing that verse you speak of, referring to 1Th3:13 (b/f the chpt 4 "rapture / caught up / snatch" verse)...

Consider:


Consider the following versions of this verse (and see how it compares with another verse or verses I'll place below this verse):

1Thess3:13 -

International Standard Version

Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.


Literal Emphasis Translation

To confirm your hearts, blameless in holiness before the face of our God and Father in the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. Amen.


Weymouth New Testament

Thus He will build up your characters, so that you will be faultlessly holy in the presence of our God and Father at the Coming of our Lord Jesus with all His holy ones.




Consider HOW THIS ^ CORRESPONDS with the following verse (I've posted numerous times):

2Cor4:14 -

Holman Christian Standard Bible

We know that the One who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and present us with you. ["present us" means... WHAT? WHERE?]



[and]

1Cor6:14 [recalling also v.3! in same context] -

Berean Literal Bible

And by His power God has both raised up the Lord, and will raise us out.






Are we sure which direction 1Th3:13 is speaking to, when it says, "IN the coming [/presence / parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ with [accompanied-with] all His holy ones [set-apart ones]"?


For example, in Dan7:13 it says,

Young's Literal Translation

I was seeing in the visions of the night, and lo, with the clouds of the heavens as a son of man was one coming, and unto the Ancient of Days he hath come, and before Him they have brought him near.




It seems to me that (unless we consider ALL the related passages Paul is covering in all his epistles... and there are many), that we could just be assuming things that could be incorrect... I mean, what I've presented above (PLUS the fact of what 1Cor6:3 says in a close-context of one of the verses I supplied) sure seems to correspond more with what we see in Revelation 4-5 (with the "24 elders" [wearing "crowns" and sitting on "thrones"] saying "hast redeemed US to God by Thy blood out-of EVERY..." in a scene just b/f Jesus opens the first seal [the AC / man of sin] at the START of the "7 yr period"... yeah.)

We know what Paul is addressing because he then begins to explain the process in Chapter 4.

This is a LETTER so it's a continuous process and thought.

Treat it like it is, a LETTER DESCRIBING how this will take place at the SECOND Coming of Christ.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Consider the following versions of this verse (and see how it compares with another verse or verses I'll place below this verse):
1Thess3:13 -
[...]
Literal Emphasis Translation
To confirm your hearts, blameless in holiness before the face [G1715] of our God and Father in the coming of our Lord Jesus with [accompanied-with] all His saints [/set-apart ones]. Amen.

So the Greek word here for "before the face" is G1715...

[quoting from BibleHub... under the heading of Thayer's Greek Lexicon]

[G1715]

b. before, in the presence of, equivalent to opposite to, over against one: στῆναι, Matthew 27:11; ὁμολογεῖν and ἀρνεῖσθαι (Buttmann, 176 (153)), Matthew 10:32; Matthew 26:70; Luke 12:8,(9 Lachmann); also Galatians 2:14; 1 Thessalonians 1:3; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 Thessalonians 3:9, 13; before one, i. e. at his tribunal: Matthew 25:32; Matthew 27:11; Luke 21:36; Acts 18:17; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 1 Thessalonians 2:19 [...]


[end quoting from BibleHub; bold and underline emphasis mine]







... so as I see it, Chpt 4 then goes on to describe the "HOW" of it (we will not "PRECEDE" those having fallen asleep through Jesus... ALL of us [the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY] will go UP in the "SNATCH" at the SAME MOMENT)