CONDEMNATION IS THE ROOT CAUSE
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We use terms all the time not in Scripture. Look up trinity while you're at it. Conscious of Christ that's what it means to me. Paul said he strived to know nothing but Christ. It seems to me that because people choose to do what they want now instead of you simply saying okay it's your choice, you resort to saying things like we are mixing philosophies, when I FLAT OUT showed you Scriptures that tells us to do exactly what I've been saying, but instead you choose to strain at gnats and swallow a camel. I'm sorry YOU think that my words are not appropriate. But that gives you no grounds to say my belief in Christ is a get out of hell free card. I'm not nit picking at your words. You know what I am saying is Scripture, but instead of agreeing you choose to attack once again. What does your religion mean to YOU? Because my Bible says who are you to judge another's servant? You've given me your feedback and I've said thank you. Now please lay off the fear, guilt, and manipulation. You don't get to control me or my words. I listen to God not you.
You have told me I need to read my Bible, you have belittled me, you have told me everything I am saying is wrong, you compare me to gnosticism? And when I show you what 7 Scriptures, your only reply is you need to change your words? And then you question our belief in Christ? Where in this entire exhange have YOU exhibited the fruits of the Spirit?
If a person does not have love. They have nothing to teach me about God.
I'm not mad at you, but consider this feedback to how I am currently experiencing you. And then ask yourself is this how God wants people to experience you. I have listened to your feedback now you get mine.
C.
You have told me I need to read my Bible, you have belittled me, you have told me everything I am saying is wrong, you compare me to gnosticism? And when I show you what 7 Scriptures, your only reply is you need to change your words? And then you question our belief in Christ? Where in this entire exhange have YOU exhibited the fruits of the Spirit?
If a person does not have love. They have nothing to teach me about God.
I'm not mad at you, but consider this feedback to how I am currently experiencing you. And then ask yourself is this how God wants people to experience you. I have listened to your feedback now you get mine.
C.
I can't speak for anyone else, but if people are afraid to lose their salvation, I wonder how they can see themselves as a reborn child of God? And Jesus tells us good fruit comes from good trees not bad ones. So for me it's very important people understand who they are in Christ. Behavior flows out of identity or obedience.
But the older brother worked, but was he really there with his father? And the father said to him, son, everything I have is yours, you could have killed the fatted calf at anytime. Why didn't he though? Why was he jealous of his brother? Why did he refuse to enter in?
My guess? We can work for love or from love. Knowing you're saved makes everything else you do cheerful loving obedience to a good father. Not to try to win His approval or add to His work.
C.
I have a question to the hypergracers out there..... Now, for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. Since you believe that a once repentance for everything gets you saved..... & stay that way, no matta what..... WHY are you sooo obsessive to get us to believe it since we ALSO repented once (at least), & accepted Christ? The way I see it, you have no need to argue at all, because we're ALL SAVED either way we believe, & those who believe from either of our witnessing would be genuinely saved.
What then IS your argument? As I see it, you're wasting your time arguing with SAVED PEOPLE bound for Heaven. Why argue your doctrine is right & ours is wrong when either, according to your doctrine, would truly save?
It seems to me that the real strawman has just been exposed.
But the older brother worked, but was he really there with his father? And the father said to him, son, everything I have is yours, you could have killed the fatted calf at anytime. Why didn't he though? Why was he jealous of his brother? Why did he refuse to enter in?
My guess? We can work for love or from love. Knowing you're saved makes everything else you do cheerful loving obedience to a good father. Not to try to win His approval or add to His work.
C.
I have a question to the hypergracers out there..... Now, for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. Since you believe that a once repentance for everything gets you saved..... & stay that way, no matta what..... WHY are you sooo obsessive to get us to believe it since we ALSO repented once (at least), & accepted Christ? The way I see it, you have no need to argue at all, because we're ALL SAVED either way we believe, & those who believe from either of our witnessing would be genuinely saved.
What then IS your argument? As I see it, you're wasting your time arguing with SAVED PEOPLE bound for Heaven. Why argue your doctrine is right & ours is wrong when either, according to your doctrine, would truly save?
It seems to me that the real strawman has just been exposed.
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L
Jesus is not "pleading" with the Father to forgive our sins. Jesus already paid the complete price for our sins and is 'seated' at the right hand of the Father. (no more work to be done) He is our Great High Priest who does not stand like the old testament priests making sacrifices every day for the sins of the people. Those priests had to stand. Jesus is seated because His work is done on our behalf. Jesus said "it is finished"
His hands and His feet and His side are a testimony of what He has done and will be a testimony of what He did for us all through the ages to come. Jesus has no need to do any pleading and neither do we because we who have Jesus have His righteousness.
.
I understand Angela's trepidation about the use of words already hijacked by the occult or new age beliefs. Its understandable and wise to consider what vocabulary we use to define things in the word of God, especially when such terms are already used by other religions to represent a belief system that contradicts God's word and denies Christ as who He claims to be (I.e; Son of God). I also see Cee's point, that what he defines as "Christ-consciousness" is biblical and there is precedent in scripture.
I am gay. No, not homosexual but happy. You see, this word's meaning has changed over time and with culture. In the same way certain words, such as Christ-consciousness, carry with it a certain meaning today. Considering how rampant new age belief systems are spreading, one must consider that Christ-consciousness may be misinterpreted to mean something else than you intend it to mean. To certain people when they hear Christ-consciousness they do not hear you saying to get your eyes off of sin and unto Christ where your victory is found, but they hear a goal that is to be attained through spiritual discipline.
All I am saying here is that Angela is not wrong to suggest we better define terms to express ourselves, and in such a way that aligns with God's word. I use Christ-consciousness but read within context it cannot be misunderstood because I always have it associated and compared to sin-consciousness. So there is no room for misunderstanding, because I explain it thoroughly. Yet, she did show the verse that speaks of sin-consciousness and that is the parallel. That we aren't focused on sin but Christ because we are purged.
Sin-consciousness and Christ-consciousness, used within the confines of scripture are evident, but if such a term is already in use to represent a belief system that denies Christ as the only begotten Son of God, then what term is free? Shall we alter the term or should we attempt to hijack it? haha
Cee and Angela, you're both correct and it is up to the individual to decide how they wish to express themselves. I will say that certain Christians have been lead astray because these false religions use this term "Christ-consciousness" and they turn from belief in one God to believing themselves to be a god, with some inner-divinity. That all are one and all is god. Its tricky and slippery, and I think its good that Angela is suggesting some self-reflection in how we express ourselves. Also, I think its good that Cee is showing that this concept is scriptural. To focus on Christ and all that He has attained for us through faith in Him. Again, up to the individual.
I am gay. No, not homosexual but happy. You see, this word's meaning has changed over time and with culture. In the same way certain words, such as Christ-consciousness, carry with it a certain meaning today. Considering how rampant new age belief systems are spreading, one must consider that Christ-consciousness may be misinterpreted to mean something else than you intend it to mean. To certain people when they hear Christ-consciousness they do not hear you saying to get your eyes off of sin and unto Christ where your victory is found, but they hear a goal that is to be attained through spiritual discipline.
All I am saying here is that Angela is not wrong to suggest we better define terms to express ourselves, and in such a way that aligns with God's word. I use Christ-consciousness but read within context it cannot be misunderstood because I always have it associated and compared to sin-consciousness. So there is no room for misunderstanding, because I explain it thoroughly. Yet, she did show the verse that speaks of sin-consciousness and that is the parallel. That we aren't focused on sin but Christ because we are purged.
Sin-consciousness and Christ-consciousness, used within the confines of scripture are evident, but if such a term is already in use to represent a belief system that denies Christ as the only begotten Son of God, then what term is free? Shall we alter the term or should we attempt to hijack it? haha
Cee and Angela, you're both correct and it is up to the individual to decide how they wish to express themselves. I will say that certain Christians have been lead astray because these false religions use this term "Christ-consciousness" and they turn from belief in one God to believing themselves to be a god, with some inner-divinity. That all are one and all is god. Its tricky and slippery, and I think its good that Angela is suggesting some self-reflection in how we express ourselves. Also, I think its good that Cee is showing that this concept is scriptural. To focus on Christ and all that He has attained for us through faith in Him. Again, up to the individual.
Not really a term for Christians. It's use is to suggest that each person can achieve "Christ Consciousness", and do what Jesus did. That is actually one of the concepts that fraternities of initiation like the Rosicrucian Order (AMORC) teaches.
Here's the concept:
Since they do not believe Jesus actually died on the cross to forgive sin, and instead say He was an adept master Who also... had the "Christ Consciousness", then their teaching continues to telling you that you... can develop the psychic connection with the "Christ Consciousness" too! They say all the major starters of religions of the world had the connection with the "Christ Consciousness" dwelling in them!
What that means is that it delegates the Divinity of our Lord Jesus as God down to being nothing but another flesh man like us, and like many who came before which started religions. It turns the 'idea' of 'The Christ' into a universal type force... instead of recognizing God The Son, a Person in The Godhead of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
Here's the concept:
Since they do not believe Jesus actually died on the cross to forgive sin, and instead say He was an adept master Who also... had the "Christ Consciousness", then their teaching continues to telling you that you... can develop the psychic connection with the "Christ Consciousness" too! They say all the major starters of religions of the world had the connection with the "Christ Consciousness" dwelling in them!
What that means is that it delegates the Divinity of our Lord Jesus as God down to being nothing but another flesh man like us, and like many who came before which started religions. It turns the 'idea' of 'The Christ' into a universal type force... instead of recognizing God The Son, a Person in The Godhead of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
"Not really a term for Christians", is subjective because in context with its use one can justify it. As I said, up to the individual, and it is good to keep in mind how we express ourselves, especially if our terminology is used elsewhere for other purposes. I didn't endorse its use, nor go against it, I simply said use wisdom in its use and it is up to the individual. Christ-consciousness as opposed to sin-consciousness is something that ought to be discussed, irrespective of terminology.
I understand the apprehension in its use. Under different circles the meaning of words change, but that doesn't necessarily mean one should drop its use because another uses it to describe something else entirely. I can see this argued back and forth, and in reality as long as the intended message is understood then all is well. Leave no room for confusion, make sure the audience understands exactly what you're saying and no matter the terms you use, they will be edified.
The point is to speak in terms people understand, and consciousness doesn't mean the same thing to most people as it does to new age people. People associate consciousness with awareness, and so when a person says to be Son-conscious instead of sin-conscious, they simply mean to be aware of Jesus and all that He has granted us through His death and resurrection (and us being born-again). Maybe Son-conscious is better than Christ-consciousness since it is so trenched in new age and this idea of finding one's divine self.
I understand the apprehension in its use. Under different circles the meaning of words change, but that doesn't necessarily mean one should drop its use because another uses it to describe something else entirely. I can see this argued back and forth, and in reality as long as the intended message is understood then all is well. Leave no room for confusion, make sure the audience understands exactly what you're saying and no matter the terms you use, they will be edified.
The point is to speak in terms people understand, and consciousness doesn't mean the same thing to most people as it does to new age people. People associate consciousness with awareness, and so when a person says to be Son-conscious instead of sin-conscious, they simply mean to be aware of Jesus and all that He has granted us through His death and resurrection (and us being born-again). Maybe Son-conscious is better than Christ-consciousness since it is so trenched in new age and this idea of finding one's divine self.
Jesus paid the price so our sins can be forgiven.
And we can be forgiven, If we confess our sins and repent of them.
See 1 Jn 1: 8--10--- 1 Jn 2: 1--2.
Jesus also paid the price so we can be healed, Yet people get sick and even die.
Jesus has present day Ministries, and one of them, is to plead to God for any sins that we do.
Pentecost did happen after Jesus went to heaven, and one of His present day Ministries, is to plead to God for any sins that we do. See 1 Jn 1: 8--10--1Jn 2: 1--2.
If you believe those scriptures about Abraham, Then you'll have to admit that Christians are very rich, As we are blessed with Abraham, and he was very rich. Gal 3: 9, &v13. Gen 24: 1, & v 35.
Also, as Children of Abraham, [By being Christians], Gal 3: 7, We should be healed, See Lk 13: 11--16.
I have a question to the hypergracers out there..... Now, for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. Since you believe that a once repentance for everything gets you saved..... & stay that way, no matta what..... WHY are you sooo obsessive to get us to believe it since we ALSO repented once (at least), & accepted Christ? The way I see it, you have no need to argue at all, because we're ALL SAVED either way we believe, & those who believe from either of our witnessing would be genuinely saved.
What then IS your argument? As I see it, you're wasting your time arguing with SAVED PEOPLE bound for Heaven. Why argue your doctrine is right & ours is wrong when either, according to your doctrine, would truly save?
It seems to me that the real strawman has just been exposed.
What then IS your argument? As I see it, you're wasting your time arguing with SAVED PEOPLE bound for Heaven. Why argue your doctrine is right & ours is wrong when either, according to your doctrine, would truly save?
It seems to me that the real strawman has just been exposed.
I addressed one of the common mis-conceptions of grace that is being said and that it is a falsehood and so that no more of this will be done. I expect Christians to walk in honesty once what is really being said is brought to the light.
It is written to believers that are Jewish and it addresses those other Hebrews that do not embrace Christ as the Messiah and it reveals all the reasons why Christ is better then the Old Covenant. There was and still is today both believers and non-believers in Christ in the meetings....just like there is here in CC.
The Greek meaning for, "Confess", in 1 Jn 1: 9, Is,
"To agree with God that you have sinned, and say the same thing as what God says".
And God says we have sinned, [If we do sin], And if we say we haven't sinned, we deceive ourselves, and don't have the truth, V8. And we call God a liar, V10.
So when we know we have sinned, we should confess and repent.
Nowhere does the Biblical New Testament Church say one has to confess their sins to be saved, So John wasn't writing to unbelievers as the false grace teacher say, But he was writing to already saved Christians.
If we do sin, We have an advocate with the Father, [Jesus], who will plead for our forgiveness and cleansing, 1 Jn 2: 1--2.
In just about every epistle the writers address unbelievers in them in some form or other and if you want to call that twisting scriptures...have at it....fill your boots....
Matt. 7 is a parallel scripture to Mark 11. Watch this video and you will see how to read scriptures in context and how to rightly divide scriptures. It will bless you abundantly!
If we do not rightly divide scriptures - you will need to go to Jerusalem to preach the gospel just like Jesus commanded " Go preach the gospel, first in Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria." If you haven't gone to Jerusalem to preach the gospel yet according to Jesus' command - you are in dis-obedience....just sayin'..
Perhaps there is more to this then meets the casual eye? Perhaps we need to interpret scriptures in light of the finished work of Christ?...many say - Yes!..and I agree with them.
[video=youtube;Ujyb683RNtM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujyb683RNtM[/video]
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U
Cee,
I hear you, I was belittled for capitalizing Grace on a another thread, you see legalism takes many forms.
AND I just want to say this again,
No such thing as a "Get Out of Hell" free card.
Jesus Christ paid dearly for our sins at a cost we will never understand.
One of the worst expressions ever coined by whomever, which completely denigrates the free gift of salvation that is in Jesus.
I hear you, I was belittled for capitalizing Grace on a another thread, you see legalism takes many forms.
AND I just want to say this again,
No such thing as a "Get Out of Hell" free card.
Jesus Christ paid dearly for our sins at a cost we will never understand.
One of the worst expressions ever coined by whomever, which completely denigrates the free gift of salvation that is in Jesus.
Quibbling over word usage won't get far because non-normative words, like Christ-conscious, are just red herrings anyways. Pay attention, instead, to what meaning the words convey.
In hyper grace Christ-conscious means seeing Christ by seeing yourself. That's the key. From now on, notice how much faith in Christ is described this way. For example, seeing who you are in Christ and focus on your identity. Notice that the focus will always be on you.
IT's almost as if hyper grace doesn't believe in the living man Jesus Christ. Sure, it will give lip service to this fact, but notice how words are used. Christ himself, in terms of his redemptive work, is virtually always described in past tense. For example, what he has done for you and all sin was forgiven, etc. But when it comes to describing the living Christ, the focus shifts to one's self (be aware of who you are, your identity, etc.). It seems to be a faith, not in the living Christ, but in the results of what the past Christ accomplished.
Pay attention from now on and see if you don't notice the same thing. This btw is the essence of gnosticism: salvation by knowing one's divine identity.
In hyper grace Christ-conscious means seeing Christ by seeing yourself. That's the key. From now on, notice how much faith in Christ is described this way. For example, seeing who you are in Christ and focus on your identity. Notice that the focus will always be on you.
IT's almost as if hyper grace doesn't believe in the living man Jesus Christ. Sure, it will give lip service to this fact, but notice how words are used. Christ himself, in terms of his redemptive work, is virtually always described in past tense. For example, what he has done for you and all sin was forgiven, etc. But when it comes to describing the living Christ, the focus shifts to one's self (be aware of who you are, your identity, etc.). It seems to be a faith, not in the living Christ, but in the results of what the past Christ accomplished.
Pay attention from now on and see if you don't notice the same thing. This btw is the essence of gnosticism: salvation by knowing one's divine identity.
Nonsense.....the focus is on the Lord and thus what He has done for us is the reality of His work. We are a new creation. 2 Cor 5:17. I know this conflicts with humanistic mindsets and they cannot understand what this new creation actually is.
...knowing what the Lord has done in His finished work for us is paramount in growing in the grace and knowledge of Him. Grace believers always lift up Christ and say to focus on Him alone for He is our life. It's all Gnosticism to people that don't believe in being born again until they get a new body in the future like your beliefs are.
The natural mind of man whether they are a Christian or not cannot understand the spiritual realities that are in Christ Jesus - the new creation in Christ is a complete mystery to this natural mind. Righteousness is another mystery which is why some need to "maintain" their own works for righteousness and thus they need to establish their own.
How many times have you seen this scripture posted?
2 Peter 3:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Or have you ever seen this posted by grace believers?
1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
How about this scripture?
Colossians 2:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
How many times has this scripture been posted?
Colossians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1[/SUP] Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
I could go on and on with scriptures that have been posted most likely over 100x times but this is enough.
...knowing what the Lord has done in His finished work for us is paramount in growing in the grace and knowledge of Him. Grace believers always lift up Christ and say to focus on Him alone for He is our life. It's all Gnosticism to people that don't believe in being born again until they get a new body in the future like your beliefs are.
The natural mind of man whether they are a Christian or not cannot understand the spiritual realities that are in Christ Jesus - the new creation in Christ is a complete mystery to this natural mind. Righteousness is another mystery which is why some need to "maintain" their own works for righteousness and thus they need to establish their own.
How many times have you seen this scripture posted?
2 Peter 3:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Or have you ever seen this posted by grace believers?
1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
How about this scripture?
Colossians 2:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
How many times has this scripture been posted?
Colossians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1[/SUP] Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
I could go on and on with scriptures that have been posted most likely over 100x times but this is enough.
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