Conditional Salvation

[Atwood]

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? (Rom 8:24 NKJ)

The passage doesn't say that hope is a means of salvation, but that our final salvation is incomplete & hoped for (expected). Passage is irrelevant to the means of salvation.

8 Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor; and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold."
9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham;
10 "for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." (Luk 19:8-10 NKJ)

The passage doesn't say what saved Zacc. If it said that restitution saved, then you might have an argument. But since the passage does not offer salvation for anything, but just records that it happened, you have no argument.

Faith is not argued from silence, but from scripture presented over & over; too much for one post. It is no fallacious conclusion to believe God's Word. God is not a false-advertiser.

The fact that faith alone is the responsibility man has for salvation, but no water is mentioned, proves that water is not essential to salvation.

Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Whosoever believeth rules out any addition as essential to salvation.

The only MUST I DO for salvation is to believe in the Son of God:

Sirs what MUST I DO to be saved?
Answer: Believe on the Lord Jesus, & you shall be saved.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[Kerry]

You guys do not even know what brings salvation this is tragic.

 

[BradC]

My point was when Paul said some of the Galatians had fallen from grace, Paul equated falling from grace with leaving the gospel to another false gospel and quit obeying the truth (gospel).

Leaving the gospel/quit obeying the truth = fallen from grace.

So can those Galatians who left the gospel, who had quit obeying the truth to be saved anyway?

Those believers were being troubled and lied to and were persuaded by those lies to be entangled with the bondage of putting themselves under the yoke of the law once again (namely circumcision). By doing so they had fallen from the grace that was given to save them, to justify them, to make them righteous and to build them up in Christ to run the race. The salvation of these believers was never in question but the race they were running had been hindered.

Your understanding of (v.7) is based upon the premise that the salvation and inheritance of God's imputed righteousness, that came through faith, can be relinquished by being hindered from continuing to obey the truth through a persuasion that did not come from God, who had called them by grace and not through keeping the law. These believers were running well and were then hindered, but Paul was confident in the Lord that they would realign and adjust themselves with what he had taught them and that the one who hindered them would receive judgment according to his deeds.

 

[mailmandan]

why do you change the scripture?

I didn't change anything. I continued to read on past verse 5 and gave a thorough explanation in post #204. As I pointed out the present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error and if these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Apparently not. In verse 10, Paul said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. You simply stopped reading at verse 5 and came up with your own biased conclusion. Paul has confidence in these Galatians and you have no confidence.

 

[elf3]

This "princple" of grace is purely made up out of thin air in an attempt to avoid the facts.

One is either in grace (saved) or out of grace (lost).

So if one falls from grace he must have fallen from a saved condition to a lost condition. There is nothing but else "lost" one can fall to.

why do you change the scripture? the meaning is very clear...it says those who wants to be justified by the law....Christ is become of no effect to you ....you are fallen from grace...(if you do thus ...this happens) how do you correct circumcision?


Galatians 5:3-5King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith


Galatians 5:3-5New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.

Looking at Gal 5:4 and 1 John 2:19 you read one thing but you actually must look at each of those verses in context according to Gal 5:1-6 and 1 John 2:18-23.

In Gal 5:4 Paul talks of those who have "fallen from grace" 1 John 2:19 states it "They went out from us, but they were not of us". In both passages Paul and John are talking about people who "put on a good front". Talking about people who "say" they believe in God's grace but don't "actually" believe it. Kind of like an actor who portrays a "killer" in a movie. That actor isn't really a real life "killer" but only portrays one in a movie.
Now look at 1 John 2:20 "but you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things." With the beginning word "but" we can see a difference in those who are seen as "falling from grace" (Gal 5:4). Those who "went out" or "fallen from grace" did not have the "anointing of the Holy One".

Gal 5:4 is not speaking of loss of salvation, but, that they never really knew God's grace to begin with.
1 John 2:19 actually states "..but they were not of us.." meaning they were not true believers in the first place.

 

[Elin]

Looking at Gal 5:4 and 1 John 2:19 you read one thing but you actually must look at each of those verses in context according to Gal 5:1-6 and 1 John 2:18-23.

In Gal 5:4 Paul talks of those who have "fallen from grace" 1 John 2:19 states it "They went out from us, but they were not of us". In both passages Paul and John are talking about people who "put on a good front". Talking about people who "say" they believe in God's grace but don't "actually" believe it. Kind of like an actor who portrays a "killer" in a movie. That actor isn't really a real life "killer" but only portrays one in a movie.
Now look at 1 John 2:20 "but you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things." With the beginning word "but" we can see a difference in those who are seen as "falling from grace" (Gal 5:4). Those who "went out" or "fallen from grace" did not have the "anointing of the Holy One".

Gal 5:4 is not speaking of loss of salvation, but, that they never really knew God's grace to begin with.
1 John 2:19 actually states "..but they were not of us.." meaning they were not true believers in the first place.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to elf3 again.

 

[SeaBass]

Those believers were being troubled and lied to and were persuaded by those lies to be entangled with the bondage of putting themselves under the yoke of the law once again (namely circumcision). By doing so they had fallen from the grace that was given to save them, to justify them, to make them righteous and to build them up in Christ to run the race. The salvation of these believers was never in question but the race they were running had been hindered.

Your understanding of (v.7) is based upon the premise that the salvation and inheritance of God's imputed righteousness, that came through faith, can be relinquished by being hindered from continuing to obey the truth through a persuasion that did not come from God, who had called them by grace and not through keeping the law. These believers were running well and were then hindered, but Paul was confident in the Lord that they would realign and adjust themselves with what he had taught them and that the one who hindered them would receive judgment according to his deeds.

You posted above " By doing so they had fallen from the grace that was given to save them...."

So if they had fallen from the grace that was given to save them, then how could they still be saved but NOT be in the grace that was meant to save them?


My original point was and still is that Paul equated leaving the gospel/quit obeying the truth with falling from grace.

So my question still remains: can one leave the gospel/quit obeying the truth and still be saved?

 

[SeaBass]

One cannot fall from grace unless he was first in grace to begin with. No more than one can fall from the roof of his house if he was never on that roof to begin with.....not possible

 

[Elin]

One cannot fall from grace unless he was first in grace to begin with. No more than one can fall from the roof of his house if he was never on that roof to begin with.....not possible

Human logic is never the best measure for the word of God.

 

[elf3]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to elf3 again.

Can someone tell me what this means. I see it a lot.

 

[Elin]

Can someone tell me what this means. I see it a lot.

At the six-point star at the bottom of your post, next to "Blog this Post," is a button for giving reputation points to someone.

But it limits how many you can give to one person at a time, and you will get this message if you are giving too many to one person at a time.

So when we can't add a "rep" for you, we let you know that we wanted to do so.

 

[tourist]

At the six-point star at the bottom of your post, next to "Blog this Post," is a button for giving reputation points to someone.

But it limits how many you can give to one person at a time, and you will get this message if you are giving too many to one person at a time.

So when we can't add a "rep" for you, we let you know that we wanted to do so.

I am not worthy of any rep points.

 

[elf3]

At the six-point star at the bottom of your post, next to "Blog this Post," is a button for giving reputation points to someone.

But it limits how many you can give to one person at a time, and you will get this message if you are giving too many to one person at a time.

So when we can't add a "rep" for you, we let you know that we wanted to do so.

Oh ok. And thank you

 

[Cassian]

Dude, you don't even make sense....quite simple...Jesus did the work...we cease from our own works when we trust into HIS work and HIS faith by faith and your reasoning seems flawed a bit...Jesus didn't come to please me and my faith or lack thereof does NOT alleviate what Christ has done for humanity as he was pleasing the FATHER and not us...!

KEY WORDS--->COMPLETED WORK OF CHRIST<---death, burial and resurrection!

You are the one that makes no sense relative to scripture.

How does one's faith contribute to his death, burial and resurrection?
You say Christ did all the work and we can rest.

My question is how does that make you any different than any other human being who benefits from what Christ did and never believed.

The reason I asked is that this phrase is stated often, yet no one has ever explained what it means within their view and why they say it?

You have not answered it. When you state that if one does work for salvation it means that Christ's death was not sufficient. Just how would Christ's work be insufficient. Does it mean He did not die or would not be resurrected, or did not suffer as much, just what do you imply by the statement.

 

[Cassian]

I would like to see you come to a true saving knowledge of Christ. Then you would have the capacity to receive the fullness of Gods revelation.

Conditional salvation is not salvation. Grace saves completely or it saves not at all. God gives or God withholds man is able to contribute nothing of merit. God is not capricious. God saves and does not go back on His word. The arm of Jehovah is not shortened that He cannot save.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So, you have no substantive historical evidence for your claim. Why not just say you don't instead of all the subterfuge.

 

[elf3]

You are the one that makes no sense relative to scripture.

How does one's faith contribute to his death, burial and resurrection?
You say Christ did all the work and we can rest.

My question is how does that make you any different than any other human being who benefits from what Christ did and never believed.

The reason I asked is that this phrase is stated often, yet no one has ever explained what it means within their view and why they say it?

You have not answered it. When you state that if one does work for salvation it means that Christ's death was not sufficient. Just how would Christ's work be insufficient. Does it mean He did not die or would not be resurrected, or did not suffer as much, just what do you imply by the statement.

So, you have no substantive historical evidence for your claim. Why not just say you don't instead of all the subterfuge.

Cassian could you please restate your argument? I tried to go back and find it but I couldn't. I would like to start from square one.

(I use my phone, not a computer so it's a little hard to manipulate)

 

[Jackson123]

Jn 15:5,6 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Jesus tells his disciples (branches) to abide in Him and bear much fruit. If not, the disciple/branch is "cast forth". Logically one cannot be "cast forth" from the vine unless he was part of the vine. Cast forth "into the fire, and they are burned", a description of hell.

The fruit of the holy spirit is love.

Abide mean believe, entrust our life to Him.

So salvation is not by work but by entrust to Jesus, than Jesus cause us to bear the fruit/ lovely work.

work is product of salvation not all the way around.

Salvation produce good deed, good deeds not produce salvation.

Salvation is the manufacture of good deeds.

But good deeds is product not producer.

 

[Cassian]

Cassian could you please restate your argument? I tried to go back and find it but I couldn't. I would like to start from square one.

(I use my phone, not a computer so it's a little hard to manipulate)

the discourse between myself and dcontroversal begins with post #149 where I quoted a response he made in post #147.
I responded back in post #150 and decontroversal followed up with post 151, then my post of 152 to which you are now responding in post #235.

It should become manifest from his post and my comments as to what I am asking regarding his statement.

You also included a response from notuptome which is of a different context than the above.

 

[crossnote]

One cannot fall from grace unless he was first in grace to begin with. No more than one can fall from the roof of his house if he was never on that roof to begin with.....not possible

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
(Gal 5:4)


You have lost your hold upon [sanctifying] grace. Gal 5:4 (Wuest)

There is nothing in the passage to say that the fall from grace is permanent. Turning back to faith in Christ restores the grace relationship...I'd go so far to say even that is only possible through His grace.

 

[elf3]

the discourse between myself and dcontroversal begins with post #149 where I quoted a response he made in post #147.
I responded back in post #150 and decontroversal followed up with post 151, then my post of 152 to which you are now responding in post #235.

It should become manifest from his post and my comments as to what I am asking regarding his statement.

You also included a response from notuptome which is of a different context than the above.

Well since I don't actually have post numbers on my phone I shall graciously bow out. Sorry if I somehow responded wrong as to the original discussion