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Abiding

Guest
Very Good. If I understand you correctly, you agree that Jews during the Christian era can be saved withour recognizing Jesus as their Messiah. That's the point I've been trying to get across all along. <smile> Salvation for the Jews is not dependant on him having his doctrine updated, but on him having a humble and contrite heart towards God.
Get a grip NO! I DONT! agree with you. "Not having his doctrine updated" ? Is that what you call rejecting the Saviour?
Im starting to wonder about your mental wellness now Therapon.
 
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Abiding

Guest
Therapon i now need to go back and read this thread from the beginning.
I just came in a few times, read a post or two and responded.

Now that its clear to me at least on your view of salvation for the jews,
Im wondering how much spin you can do.

You have NO foundation in truth, NOPE not one bit.
 
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Charlamane

Guest
I don't get it. Are we calling the Ashkenazi Jews part of the lost tribes of Israel? They hardly even appear to be Jews, and maybe many of them aren't even faintly that, at least genetically. I'm really not arguing any point regarding what prophecy may of may not have been fulfilled by some specified time. I'm just wondering about the definition of a "lost tribe" in this case. However, I think it does an extreme disservice to a Christian site to reply to assertions made by fellow Christians with not only sarcasm, but apparent distain, simply over some disagreement in interpretation of prophecy. It definately shows a lack of love. And without that, what do scriptures say that we that have? Oh yeah. Nothing.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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I don't get it. Are we calling the Ashkenazi Jews part of the lost tribes of Israel? They hardly even appear to be Jews, and maybe many of them aren't even faintly that, at least genetically. I'm really not arguing any point regarding what prophecy may of may not have been fulfilled by some specified time. I'm just wondering about the definition of a "lost tribe" in this case. However, I think it does an extreme disservice to a Christian site to reply to assertions made by fellow Christians with not only sarcasm, but apparent distain, simply over some disagreement in interpretation of prophecy. It definately shows a lack of love. And without that, what do scriptures say that we that have? Oh yeah. Nothing.[/COLOR]
this is a whole lot more than "some disagreement in interpretation of prophecy".
this goes to the very heart of the entire Plan of Redemption.
if we got this wrong, what's left?



2 Corinthians 3:14
“For to this day when they [the Jews] read the Old Covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away”

Hebrews 7:18
“On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness…”

Hebrews 8:7
“For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another”

Hebrews 10:9
“Then he says, ‘Behold, I come to do your will.’ He takes away the first [covenant] to establish the second [covenant]…”


if we fall away into this chasm of infidelity, we are saying Jesus utterly failed:

‘Behold, I come to do your will’

what did Paul say about it? - let him speak...

Galatanns 1
No Other Gospel

6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

10For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servantb of Christ.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,409
6,694
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There will always be disputing and controversy in order to prove who is of the faith and who is not. In many cases proving what is according to Holy Scripture, the Word of Yeshua, Jesus. If doctrine purported does not fit within the teachings of the Gospel, it cannot be of our Savior, it is nothing and nothing to be feared or revered.
I don't get it. Are we calling the Ashkenazi Jews part of the lost tribes of Israel? They hardly even appear to be Jews, and maybe many of them aren't even faintly that, at least genetically. I'm really not arguing any point regarding what prophecy may of may not have been fulfilled by some specified time. I'm just wondering about the definition of a "lost tribe" in this case. However, I think it does an extreme disservice to a Christian site to reply to assertions made by fellow Christians with not only sarcasm, but apparent distain, simply over some disagreement in interpretation of prophecy. It definately shows a lack of love. And without that, what do scriptures say that we that have? Oh yeah. Nothing.
 
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Abiding

Guest
I don't get it. Are we calling the Ashkenazi Jews part of the lost tribes of Israel? They hardly even appear to be Jews, and maybe many of them aren't even faintly that, at least genetically. I'm really not arguing any point regarding what prophecy may of may not have been fulfilled by some specified time. I'm just wondering about the definition of a "lost tribe" in this case. However, I think it does an extreme disservice to a Christian site to reply to assertions made by fellow Christians with not only sarcasm, but apparent distain, simply over some disagreement in interpretation of prophecy. It definately shows a lack of love. And without that, what do scriptures say that we that have? Oh yeah. Nothing.

We used to hug heretics in the forums Charlemane, but we found out it just encouraged them:p
 
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Charlamane

Guest
I was talking about who is considered a lost tribe of Israel and who is not, which has nothing to do with the plan of redemption. That plan is obviously only about accepting Jesus Christ as Lord. However, even then, being sarcastic to the point of vicious will not win any ground in any area. It's a flat turnoff, in fact.
 
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Abiding

Guest
I was talking about who is considered a lost tribe of Israel and who is not, which has nothing to do with the plan of redemption. That plan is obviously only about accepting Jesus Christ as Lord. However, even then, being sarcastic to the point of vicious will not win any ground in any area. It's a flat turnoff, in fact.
Exactly Charlemane that is the view from the bleachers:cool:
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,409
6,694
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By your own words, the forum is in need of love in the posts, therefore my advice to you is to overcome the turn off and afford all the love you have been given to share. Love is not always being in agreement with others, sometimes it requires rebuke. I believe most rebukes here really are in love, but sometimes it is easy to be a little peeved, especially when we feel someone is stepping on the cross of our Lord. Persevere in sharing the Word, in love of course; this will make you a true teacher.
I was talking about who is considered a lost tribe of Israel and who is not, which has nothing to do with the plan of redemption. That plan is obviously only about accepting Jesus Christ as Lord. However, even then, being sarcastic to the point of vicious will not win any ground in any area. It's a flat turnoff, in fact.
 
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Charlamane

Guest
Abiding, it's not even you I thought was getting way too nasty. Hahaha. But maybe you're right. I should jump right down there in the ring with you guys and start swinging with all my might! Obviously, to assume the Jews could be saved without recognizing their saviour, Jesus Christ, is an absurd unscriptural assumption. There's just too many scriptures to disprove that assertion to even waste one's time digging them all up. Acts 4: 11-12 probably takes care of it all by itself. "He is the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone. Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

The author is obviously talking to Jews here, not Gentiles.
 
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Abiding

Guest
Abiding, it's not even you I thought was getting way too nasty. Hahaha. But maybe you're right. I should jump right down there in the ring with you guys and start swinging with all my might! Obviously, to assume the Jews could be saved without recognizing their saviour, Jesus Christ, is an absurd unscriptural assumption. There's just too many scriptures to disprove that assertion to even waste one's time digging them all up. Acts 4: 11-12 probably takes care of it all by itself. "He is the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone. Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

The author is obviously talking to Jews here, not Gentiles.
Ya i know you wernt talking about sweet ole me:p
But as you know from the chatrooms things can end up
evolving into something very weird as a convo goes on till
your at a point saying :eek: eekk. What am i doing here?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
and if certain persons who identify as jews are not - what does that say about anything they are trying to convince us of?
truly israel of the flesh or not makes zero difference if they do not love I AM.

there is, though a parallel and counterfeit belief system into which well-meaning christians have been lured: they come to believe they must 'return' to something; or be biologically someone they are not; or start to 'identify' in some other way with what they think is pleasing to God.

it'll start with circumcision and, according to Paul: that's where it ends.

Galatians 5:4
You have been destroyed from The Messiah, those of you who are justified by that in The Written Law, and you have fallen from grace

ABPE
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,409
6,694
113
It is written in Romans that many pagans (gentiles) have the truth written on the tablet of their heart with their own consciences accusing and excusing them as they act. Now I do not pretend to understand this teaching completely but it does seem to me if this applies to some gentiles it also applies to some Jews, all Jews if thinking in Spiritual terms. This teaching has always left me wondering just how many of these gentiles, or Jews, there are, who do not yet know the Lord, are scratching their heads in wonderment at all the sects of Jews and Christians. They know what is correct and act accordingly, yet they have not yet met Yeshua, Jesus. There are reasons for everyone. Perhaps some appear to be disobedient by the will of our Maker. Our Father's ways are not the ways of man, so hold all who do not seem to believe in abeyance until judgment has been handed over to all saints when the thrones have been positioned. It is so wonderful to be free of judging; it really is.
Abiding, it's not even you I thought was getting way too nasty. Hahaha. But maybe you're right. I should jump right down there in the ring with you guys and start swinging with all my might! Obviously, to assume the Jews could be saved without recognizing their saviour, Jesus Christ, is an absurd unscriptural assumption. There's just too many scriptures to disprove that assertion to even waste one's time digging them all up. Acts 4: 11-12 probably takes care of it all by itself. "He is the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone. Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

The author is obviously talking to Jews here, not Gentiles.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
So God blinded the Jews to the Gospel for the 2000 years since the Cross and then sends them all to hell for not believing in a Gospel God blinded them from seeing? I worship a far more loving, merciful and just God than that.
As I said before. God did not blind the jews, they blinded themselves in unbelief!

God is a loving God/. He died for them also. It is not his fault they rejected him. And yes they will go to hell with everyone else if they do not repent and come to him.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Very Good. If I understand you correctly, you agree that Jews during the Christian era can be saved withour recognizing Jesus as their Messiah. That's the point I've been trying to get across all along. <smile> Salvation for the Jews is not dependant on him having his doctrine updated, but on him having a humble and contrite heart towards God.
I don;t know where you get your theology from. But no man, jew or gentile, will be saved without coming to Christ..
 
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Therapon

Guest
Get a grip NO! I DONT! agree with you. "Not having his doctrine updated" ? Is that what you call rejecting the Saviour? Im starting to wonder about your mental wellness now Therapon.
You truly do not understand, the Jews are not rejecting their Messiah, they are still looking for him. However, according to Romans 11:8, they have not been allowed to know that He has already been here once.

Menachem Begin was in the Warsaw ghetto during World War II. He watched as 500 Jews, including his beloved mother and father, were driven into the Warsaw River and machine gunned down by the Nazis. As their blood was was pouring out of them, those dear suffering people, with their hands raised toward heaven, were singing that beautiful Jewish hymn, “Oh, how we love our Messiah, and long for his appearance.”

Did you really hear that? “Oh, how we love our Messiah, and long for his appearance.”

When I heard Menachem’s account, I knew in my spirit that Jews could be saved during the Christian era without knowing Jesus name, but according you guys, they are going to hell because they didn’t. I have to admit, the blind bigotry of the church makes me truly ill.
 
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Abiding

Guest
Menachem Begin believed in a master race. I wouldnt believe in a word he said
if my life depended on it. Zionism at its best Therapon, buy what you want.
The bible doesnt matter. right?
 
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Therapon

Guest
As I said before. God did not blind the jews, they blinded themselves in unbelief!
God is a loving God/.
Stop blaming me, God is the one who inspired Romans 11:8 so take it up with Him . . .
"According as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day."

And they did not reject Him, read my post to Abiding.
 
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Therapon

Guest
Menachem Begin believed in a master race. I wouldnt believe in a word he said
if my life depended on it. Zionism at its best Therapon, buy what you want. The bible doesnt matter. right?
One more time, “Oh, how we love our Messiah, and long for his appearance,” and that hymn wasn't written by the tooth fairy.
 
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Abiding

Guest
Stop blaming me, God is the one who inspired Romans 11:8 so take it up with Him . . .
"According as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day."

And they did not reject Him, read my post to Abiding.
What does "to this day" mean? 2000 years later. You didnt read the chapter
from the OT i gave you from where Paul quoted that from. You didnt read it.
So dont say they didnt reject Him. Theres too much scripture to believe that.
Jesus told me why...what your saying you pulled out of your ear.