Connecting the Dots . . .

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest


Futurist? I'm not a futurist, and besides Romans wasn't written just to Paul's generation, it is for all generations.

1. Fulness of the Gentiles = all the Gentiles whore are going to be saved have come to the Lord.


wrong. It means the time the gentiles were given to trample jerusalem and Isreal.. ie daniels gentile kingdoms.

There will never be a time on this earth when there will no longer be a gentile who will not get saved, in fact, there has never been a time when no gentile has not been saved. This is a jewish lie.

2. You believe people are saved by having the right doctrine. I believe Scripture teaches that souls are saved by having the right heart towards God, regardless of doctrine.
A non believer can not have a right heart to God. God said man is alienated from him. They can do no good. they can not make themselves right with God. and they have no hope of their own power.

It is only by Christ we can be saved, Christ was prophesied in Genesis three. it has always been about the messiah. It has never been about us doing good. being good, or trying to be good. We can not be good enough. the penalty of SIN is death, the GIFT of God is life (eternal)

there is no hope apart from Christ.

3. God has shut up all in dosobedience: all our righteousness (both Jew and Gentile) is as filthy rags before the Lord.

Then how can we have a right heart and be made right with God by our own self will? we can;t, you just proved it with this saying, thus you contradict yourself



4. Ah, election has been argement in the church for years, but in Greek it is "ekloge" defined:
divine selection, chosen, elected. Now I don't believe all Jews in the flesh are saved anymore than I believe every person who goes to church is saved. Romans 2:29 however, tells us which Jews are saved . . . " But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."


One can only be circumcized in the heart by the blood of Christ. we know the jews who are saved because they procliam christ

5. "Do you mean believing what you say it says?" Of course not. I mean just read those verses without doctrinal preconceptions. What do they say?

Yet you are doing the very thing you claim you are not doing.,

6. "You seem to want to say someones not seeing a verse or not believing it...which one?" All of the ones I quoted in my last post. If you forget tradition for a while, and read them like a newspaper, what do they state?


Not what you state, thats for sure!

 
Last edited by a moderator:
A

Abiding

Guest
Ok romans doesnt require us to believe that because jews unbelief in the past
cursed jews in the future till some amount of gentiles believe, it just doesnt say that.

It says untill the fullness...in otherwords untill the gentiles are fully in the church
under full blessing and membership.

the words are "come in" ok come in what? the church, the olive tree.
something the jews were not to willing to receive.

Think how hard it is to understand that poof "all the nation of Israel" will be saved.
There isnt even a real Israel nation.

I contend here alone with myself chapter 9-11 are talking about their present state
of Israel not a future state because they "true Israel" will go into the church "all Israel"
has been and will be saved. Not the children of the flesh.

All were cut off so mercy could be shown to all who would not continue in unbelief.

Therefore the fullness of the gentiles according to little ole me happened in the first century.
 
Last edited:
A

Abiding

Guest
I also believe the times of the gentiles ended in 70ad
As spoken of by Daniel.:p give me some cookies before you pound me.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Ok romans doesnt require us to believe that because jews unbelief in the past
cursed jews in the future till some amount of gentiles believe, it just doesnt say that.

It says untill the fullness...in otherwords untill the gentiles are fully in the church
under full blessing and membership.

the words are "come in" ok come in what? the church, the olive tree.
something the jews were not to willing to receive.
Come in means completed. What we must then see is what is completed.

Gentiles have been coming in the church since the begining of time.. Even under the law many gentles were saved.



Think how hard it is to understand that poof "all the nation of Israel" will be saved.
There isnt even a real Israel nation.
Again, Lev 26.

Lev 26:
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;

for I am the Lord their God.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:

We might not be able to see a nation of Isreal. But according to lev 26, even when punished, God promised to never cast them away, destroy them or abhor them.. Thus wherever they are, they still must be in existance. Otherwise God lied and did not keep his promise.

I contend here alone with myself chapter 9-11 are talking about their present state
of Israel not a future state because they "true Israel" will go into the church "all Israel"
has been and will be saved. Not the children of the flesh.

I agree and disagree. I think present a future state of Isreal as a nation is spoken of in romans 11. Where romans 9 speaks of the spiritual nature of who Isreal is.


All were cut off so mercy could be shown to all who would not continue in unbelief.

Therefore the fullness of the gentiles according to little ole me happened in the first century.
lol.. Ok :p
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I also believe the times of the gentiles ended in 70ad
As spoken of by Daniel.:p give me some cookies before you pound me.

Cookee!! (I wish I knew how to post pics)

Can not be ad 70,. Jerusalem is still trampled by the gentiles. the final roman empire has not yet come to fruition.
 
G

GRA

Guest
I also believe the times of the gentiles ended in 70ad
As spoken of by Daniel.:p give me some cookies before you pound me.
Here you go,lots of them :)

"O.K. - let the pounding begin!" :D

( JK -- I mean: "Let's all have a cookie!" ) :cool:

Abiding:

When do you believe that the "the times of the Gentiles" began? What verse(s) in Daniel speak to its end?

From another thread:

Please explain Luke 21:24 in light of the fact that the things which it describes occur after the Great Tribulation begins...
( I believe that these things happen / continue beyond 70 A.D. )

:)

.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Here you go,lots of them :)

Profile says christian, not sure when saved, thats ok my memory is shot too, single
and gives lots of cookies. Hmm whats the thread about again?:p
 
A

Abiding

Guest
"O.K. - let the pounding begin!" :D

( JK -- I mean: "Let's all have a cookie!" ) :cool:

Abiding:

When do you believe that the "the times of the Gentiles" began? What verse(s) in Daniel speak to its end?

From another thread:



( I believe that these things happen / continue beyond 70 A.D. )

:)

.
Well as EG would continually say that the visions daniel received were in reference to
his prayer which i dont hold to, seeing even times Jesus was asked stuff He told them
answers not always lined up with their questions, but more about the truth that needed said.

But i do think daniel is given specifics to the rest of the history of the nation which was till 70ad.
From there the promises and other prophecies came to and are fulfilled in the church.

I agree prophecies are still coming to past in the church and some in the eternal state.
But no longer in the desolate House of Israel. The children of the flesh have no promises.

I know that wasnt specific. But i didnt see a specific question. Rome fell, and i understand
for some not soon enuf oh well.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
"O.K. - let the pounding begin!" :D

( JK -- I mean: "Let's all have a cookie!" ) :cool:

Abiding:

When do you believe that the "the times of the Gentiles" began? What verse(s) in Daniel speak to its end?

From another thread:



( I believe that these things happen / continue beyond 70 A.D. )

:)

.
[h=3]Luke 21:24[/h]


[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Would say this started in AD 70, and is still in effect today!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Well as EG would continually say that the visions daniel received were in reference to
his prayer which i dont hold to, seeing even times Jesus was asked stuff He told them
answers not always lined up with their questions, but more about the truth that needed said.

But i do think daniel is given specifics to the rest of the history of the nation which was till 70ad.
From there the promises and other prophecies came to and are fulfilled in the church.

I agree prophecies are still coming to past in the church and some in the eternal state.
But no longer in the desolate House of Israel. The children of the flesh have no promises.

I know that wasnt specific. But i didnt see a specific question. Rome fell, and i understand
for some not soon enuf oh well.
No EG would not say this. For EG would think about the empires which would be in rule over Jerusalem.

Yes Rome fell. As prophesied, But prophesy states Rome will come back. and rule Every nation, Every Tongue and Every tribe.

again, I what more can be said for total world domination. Which has never been done up till this day.
 
Jan 10, 2013
318
4
0
Indeed you are correct eternally-gratefull - but the "time of the Gentiles are fulfilled" suggests they will end.
There will be a time in the future when the Jews will turn to Christ and so be accepted again by God as His people.
Rome is nothing to God.
Jerusalem is the place where Christ will return and for 1000 years it will be the nation of God until the rest of the world and evil is gone and, after a final battle, Jesus will give power over all to God. That's what the Bible says.
I don't understand it all but we can see certain things
1 - time of Gentiles is now
2 - time of Gentiles will end (this does not say Gentiles will be excluded, only that they will no longer be God's favoured
3 - much of Judaism will turn to Christ as Messiah
4 - Christ will return to Jerusalem and rule there for 1000 years

unlike many idiots in the past I won't predict when this will happen (or say it has started like JW do - they think we're in #4 and ignore the other stuff)

The most important and unlike prophecy in the Bible is that Jews would get their kingdom back but it would be split in two by other nations (as the UN is now doing with Israel and Palestine).
Be careful who's side you are on through this time - it may well be important - we'll see.
 
Jan 10, 2013
318
4
0
No EG would not say this. For EG would think about the empires which would be in rule over Jerusalem.

Yes Rome fell. As prophesied, But prophesy states Rome will come back. and rule Every nation, Every Tongue and Every tribe.

again, I what more can be said for total world domination. Which has never been done up till this day.
You know this is the EU.
"Rome" is Europe in the Bible.
And Rome is on seven hills etc...
And Europe was or will be a council of 10 (horns)
Etc..

Possible connection to the planned (currently being discussed) joining of EU and USA? Financial deal - though that is exactly how the EU started but now we have a EU rather than a 'financial union of europe'

The church of rome (i.e. not the church of Christ) and it's successors and branches (including the anglican church) are not the church discussed in the Bible. Surely you understand that. The pomp and ceremony and rich clothes and houses of the clergy are not what Jesus would have wanted.

Inkow this sounds silly but think about hats - I've travelled the world (maybe 40 countries over Europe, Asia, and Africa) and KNOW that people generally consider hats VERY important. Silly I know - but that's how humans seem to be - across many cultures.

How much gold do you think Jesus had in his hat?
Ah - no hat. Of course not - Paul said wearing a hat was to put oneself over God and we should not cover our heads.
Yet look at the Archbishops (cardinals) and Cardinals and Popes....
They seem to think the higher the position, the bigger and more valuable the hat.
Following the Bible? Or following the traditions of men?

The time is now - the church has been corrupt for at least 1800 years so that is not what is changing.
The only think changing is the middle east (destruction of Damascus as predicted) and the rise of Europe as an entity
 
Last edited:
A

Abiding

Guest
Come in means completed. What we must then see is what is completed.

Gentiles have been coming in the church since the begining of time.. Even under the law many gentles were saved.
Its just not there, ive looked uo the words and fullness isnt the greek word best for a final count number, and even if that was the idea in part which doesnt matter because it also means fullness as far as quality or like full membership which for all i know was a full number God wanted before He took off the blindness in part.

Nowhere in that text can you see any 2000 year gap. Not even a hint. In fact the next verse starts out with "And" so all Israel will be saved then a quote from Isaiah 59 which has no gap. Then the next verse is a fulfillment for the verses below you have "for this IS my covenant" unto them.




Again, Lev 26.

Lev 26:
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;

for I am the Lord their God.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:

We might not be able to see a nation of Isreal. But according to lev 26, even when punished, God promised to never cast them away, destroy them or abhor them.. Thus wherever they are, they still must be in existance. Otherwise God lied and did not keep his promise.

I see the nation of Israel: But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:See EG He did keep His covenant.



I agree and disagree. I think present a future state of Isreal as a nation is spoken of in romans 11. Where romans 9 speaks of the spiritual nature of who Isreal is.
Well i dont i think the theme in both is about true Israel which is the believers although the unbelievers are mentioned thats about it. If you need a 70th unfulfilled week you wont find it in romans 11 nor matt24 Nor dan 9:27 youl just have to pull it out of your hat like everyone else.:cool:



lol.. Ok :p

Lets say for a moment that your insistance that God keeps His covenant with Israel (which He has in Christ) which is what Paul is trying to teach(notice right after he says all israel will be saved he goes right to the cross and the covenant)But lets say you missed the obvious as if the cross/covenant was secondary here which amazes me .
Does over 2000 years look like a kept covenant? Does your house is left to you desolate sound like a ongoing covenant? Or could the covenant be the cross? No gap. And Dan 9:27 the covenant thats said the antichrist makes, is not the antichrist, but that Jesus confirmed the covenant in His death midway through the 70th week. Romans 15:8(some versions say promise others say covenant)

Summery romans 9-11 has no gaps The covenant to Israel is and has been honored. The covenants were never to the children of the flesh. So noone has been not saved. There was a turnover between the Old and the New and Israel was blinded in part, made jelous, was an enemy for a season till the gentiles got comfy. The rest that dont believe were part of a system that brought the messiah therefore beloved for the elect.

thats my story.
:cool:if the explaination didnt turn out understandable its cuz i have a cookie buzz going.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
"Those questions are not specific enough?????????" :confused:

.
Well as far as Israel is concerned. Unlike EG i dont think that the times of the gentiles is a scope
of all history because of coarse gentiles will be here all through history, doing what? having times i spose:p
So id say its only in reference to Israel.

Prolly Dan 2:45?

So ill wing it and say from 605bc-70ad(or the ascension)

The "times of the gentiles" being the time that unbelieving gentiles would have dominion over the "Israel of God"
Which expired with the Kingdom Of Christ. In Christ the kingdom is restored to Israel and the throne of David
a spiritual kingdom and not national, that noone can conquer or have dominion over but Christ.

“And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.” (Dan. 7:27)
 
Last edited:
G

GRA

Guest
Well as far as Israel is concerned. Unlike EG i dont think that the times of the gentiles is a scope
of all history because of coarse gentiles will be here all through history, doing what? having times i spose:p
So id say its only in reference to Israel.

Prolly Dan 2:45?

So ill wing it and say from 605bc-70ad(or the ascension)

The "times of the gentiles" being the time that unbelieving gentiles would have dominion over the "Israel of God"
Which expired with the Kingdom Of Christ. In Christ the kingdom is restored to Israel and the throne of David
a spiritual kingdom and not national, that noone can conquer or have dominion over but Christ.

“And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.” (Dan. 7:27)
Thanks. I thought you might say something like that... :D

So - you are saying that Daniel 7:27 is already fulfilled?

:)

.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Its just not there, ive looked uo the words and fullness isnt the greek word best for a final count number, and even if that was the idea in part which doesnt matter because it also means fullness as far as quality or like full membership which for all i know was a full number God wanted before He took off the blindness in part.


or we could just take it for what it literally means.

πλήρωμα, ατος, τό, a full measure, Eur.
2. πλ. δαιτός the satiety of the feast, Id.; πλ. τυρῶν their fill of cheese, Id.
3. of ships, a full number, Hdt., Eur.; of single ships, their complement, Thuc., etc.
4. of number, the sum, total, Hdt., Ar.
5. a piece inserted to fill up, N.T.
6. fulness, full and perfect nature, Ib.
II. a filling up, completing, Soph.; κυλίκων πλ. ἔχων to have the task of filling them, Eur.
2. fulfilment


Liddell, H. (1996). A lexicon: Abridged from Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English lexicon (647). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

And then we take a look at another passage which shows it. in Luke.

Luke 21:24
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Then we look at daniels beasts. the empires which would own jerusalem for a set amount of time. That time being fulfilled when Christ personally comes and destroys them.

All three fit together.

Fullfilment, or fullness means as one of the interpretations state. that when this time aloted to the gentiled, which started with the babylonian captivity of jerusalem, and will continue to the end. is fulfilled.


I do not think, as many die, this is a time when the number of saved is fulfilled. It is not in context or romans 11. It is context of how long Isreal will be blind.

Nowhere in that text can you see any 2000 year gap. Not even a hint. In fact the next verse starts out with "And" so all Israel will be saved then a quote from Isaiah 59 which has no gap. Then the next verse is a fulfillment for the verses below you have "for this IS my covenant" unto them.


who said anything about a gap? According to paul. I sreal was already our enemy because of the gospel and would be until th etime of the gentile is fulfilled. There is no gap.

Paul said, Right now. they are our enemy, They are blind. When the time of the gentile is fulfilled. their blindess will be removed (The OT tells us how) now gap. It statrted then, and continues to today.



Again, Lev 26.

Lev 26:
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;

for I am the Lord their God.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:

We might not be able to see a nation of Isreal. But according to lev 26, even when punished, God promised to never cast them away, destroy them or abhor them.. Thus wherever they are, they still must be in existance. Otherwise God lied and did not keep his promise.

I see the nation of Israel: But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:See EG He did keep His covenant.

oh no. you can't do this, unless we are under law.. And the land of canaan now belongs to us. If you do not believe this, then lev 26 does not belong to us (although many dispensationalists will say it does. they are wrong!)

For lev 26 was spoken to those who were under law. (Not for salvation. for blessing in their land), or cursed and scattered.. you have the wrong context here. this covenant was never given to us.

We were never told if we sin, or play the harlot with idols we will be taken from our land, spread all over the earth due to our punishment, and yet never ben killed destroyed. That was given to Israel only, according to the promise made to abraham Isaac and Jacob. That is why your enemy and mine Judaism is called our enemy, because it is against the gospel. But at the same time beloved due to the promise made their fathers. A promise which stands as of today. It was NEVER salvic in nature.


I agree and disagree. I think present a future state of Isreal as a nation is spoken of in romans 11. Where romans 9 speaks of the spiritual nature of who Isreal is.
Well i dont i think the theme in both is about true Israel which is the believers although the unbelievers are mentioned thats about it. If you need a 70th unfulfilled week you wont find it in romans 11 nor matt24 Nor dan 9:27 youl just have to pull it out of your hat like everyone else.:cool:
You should say I wont find it till it happens.

Matt 24 does show us a fulfillment, when Christ returns.

Luke shows us when the time of gentiles is complete

Dan 9 shows us when Isreal will no longer be in sin against God

Rom 11 tells us gentiles not to be too puffed up in pride (as we see in here alot) because Gods promise to Isreal still stands.

I do not have to look hard.. It is all there.. Plus many many other OT prophesies support this.

Lets say for a moment that your insistance that God keeps His covenant with Israel (which He has in Christ)


Can't be. Christ fulfilled the covenant which saves us. Their covenant was not salvic. But lets go on.

which is what Paul is trying to teach(notice right after he says all israel will be saved he goes right to the cross and the covenant)


Yes in romans 9 I agree.

But lets say you missed the obvious as if the cross/covenant was secondary here which amazes me .
Does over 2000 years look like a kept covenant? Does your house is left to you desolate sound like a ongoing covenant? Or could the covenant be the cross?


Yeah it does.

1. Lev 26 said this will happen if they follow Idols and false teachings and Not god. and that would continue until the repent. Have they repented? No.. so why would I expect God to just put them back or save them while they are in unbelief?
2. Could the covenant be the cross? The covenant in which all nations shall be blessed yes.. The covenant in which Isreal OWNS the land, and as long as they follow Gods commands he will bless them in their land, but if they do not, he will curse them and leave their house desolate.. No. The cross never had anything to do with this covenant, The land was unconditionally given FOREVER. Thier ability to posses it was conditional on their obedience.

Does that fact their disobedience has caused them to be scattered make the covenant null and void? no. It was predicted it would happen.



No gap. And Dan 9:27 the covenant thats said the antichrist makes, is not the antichrist, but that Jesus confirmed the covenant in His death midway through the 70th week.


You can say this till your blue in the face, it will not make it true. you have to many issues.

1. The 69th week ended the day Christ entered jerusalem on a donkey. Scinece and history proves this.
2. The covenant occures AFTER the temple and city are destroyed. meaning after 70 AD.. The passage says, THEN meaning after these things take place.. what things?

People of the future prince destroy city and sanctuary
The end of war desolations are determined. What desolation and what wars? well we are speaking of Jerusalem here, and the time that Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles. The end of this fulfillment is when the one week covenant will be made, not before.

Jesus said there will be wars and rumors of wars. the end is not yet.. This is what he spoke of.


Romans 15:8(some versions say promise others say covenant)

romans 15: 8 speak of the salvic aspect of the covenant. Nothing about land.. or mosaic law here. It does not fit.


Summery romans 9-11 has no gaps The covenant to Israel is and has been honored. The covenants were never to the children of the flesh. So noone has been not saved. There was a turnover between the Old and the New and Israel was blinded in part, made jelous, was an enemy for a season till the gentiles got comfy. The rest that dont believe were part of a system that brought the messiah therefore beloved for the elect.

thats my story.
:cool:if the explaination didnt turn out understandable its cuz i have a cookie buzz going.
wrong

1. The covenant was never about salvation. Yo you and your descendants I give this land. not salvation And this covenant is eternal.

2. Rom 9 - 11 has no gaps. correct. Rom explains the covenant given to Isreal never had a thing to do with salvation.. Rom 11 tells us what will happen to Isreal from the time he wrote it till the time the gentiles is fulfilled. No gap. I agree..


Have you come down from you high yet??..lol
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
You know this is the EU.
"Rome" is Europe in the Bible.
And Rome is on seven hills etc...
And Europe was or will be a council of 10 (horns)
Etc..

Possible connection to the planned (currently being discussed) joining of EU and USA? Financial deal - though that is exactly how the EU started but now we have a EU rather than a 'financial union of europe'

The church of rome (i.e. not the church of Christ) and it's successors and branches (including the anglican church) are not the church discussed in the Bible. Surely you understand that. The pomp and ceremony and rich clothes and houses of the clergy are not what Jesus would have wanted.

Inkow this sounds silly but think about hats - I've travelled the world (maybe 40 countries over Europe, Asia, and Africa) and KNOW that people generally consider hats VERY important. Silly I know - but that's how humans seem to be - across many cultures.

How much gold do you think Jesus had in his hat?
Ah - no hat. Of course not - Paul said wearing a hat was to put oneself over God and we should not cover our heads.
Yet look at the Archbishops (cardinals) and Cardinals and Popes....
They seem to think the higher the position, the bigger and more valuable the hat.
Following the Bible? Or following the traditions of men?

The time is now - the church has been corrupt for at least 1800 years so that is not what is changing.
The only think changing is the middle east (destruction of Damascus as predicted) and the rise of Europe as an entity
Might be. Might not be. Might not happen for another 500 years. which means things may change..

I would not try to guess who or what. Just know it will happen. Until we see the things prophesied literally come true. we will not know.. I do not want to speculate. although sometimes it can be fin, if not taken seriously. We may all be wrong

 
A

Abiding

Guest
I was afraid you would do that EG.
Im gona cop out for the night. and find
someplace to make my usual small annoying posts.:p
and read this later.