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peterT

Guest

I'm sorry peterT I just don't agree that a Jew that has been given the spirit of slumber to be antichrist. If they have been blinded to not recognize that Jesus Christ is the Messiah how can they be in transgression? What you and others are promoting in my opinion is that our God is an unjust God without mercy who would destroy those He has given the spirit of slumber to. Doesn't scripture tell us that God is a just God full of mercy? How would that be just and merciful?

1Christianwarrior316
Was God unjust and unmerciful when he killed the children of Israel JEWS (all over the age of 20 years) when they left Egypt and crossed the wilderness?


Is God unjust and unmerciful to let the Jews die in their sins because they believed not?


John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


I think we have two different Gods going on here mate
 
A

Abiding

Guest
it's never been the election (faithful, saved) who was given the "spirit of slumber"


Deuteronomy 29:4
But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

Isaiah 6:9
He said, "Go and tell this people: "'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'

Jeremiah 5:21
Hear this, you foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear:

Ezekiel 12:2
"Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.

Mark 4:12
so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Acts 28:26
"'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."

Acts 28:27
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Romans 10:16
But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"


Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

That just sorta took all the spin outa the futurist view.:)
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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it's never been the election (faithful, saved) who was given the "spirit of slumber"


Deuteronomy 29:4
But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

Isaiah 6:9
He said, "Go and tell this people: "'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'

Jeremiah 5:21
Hear this, you foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear:

Ezekiel 12:2
"Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.

Mark 4:12
so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Acts 28:26
"'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."

Acts 28:27
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Romans 10:16
But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"


Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.


And in them is fulfilled-rather, "is fulfilling," or "is receiving its fulfilment."

the prophecy of Esaias, which saith-(Isa 6:9, 10-here quoted according to the Septuagint).

By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand, &c.-They were thus judicially sealed up under the darkness and obduracy which they deliberately preferred to the light and healing which Jesus brought nigh to them.
JFBBC



Waxed gross - Literally, "has become fat." This language is commonly applied to "the body," but is also used to denote one who is stupid and foolish in mind. Here it means that the people were so sensual and corrupt that they did not see or understand the pure spiritual principles of the gospel.

Lest they should see ... - Lest they should see their lost condition as sinners, and turn and live. The reason given here why they did not hear and understand the gospel is, that their "heart" was "wrong." They "would" not attend to the things that belonged to their peace.
Barnes



13:14 Hearing ye will hear, but in nowise understand - That is, Ye will surely hear. All possible means will be given you: yet they will profit you nothing; because your heart is sensual, stupid, and insensible; your spiritual senses are shut up; yea, you have closed your eyes against the light; as being unwilling to understand the things of God, and afraid, not desirous that he should heal you. Isaiah 6:9; John 12:40; Acts 28:26.
Wesley



In them is fulfilled - Αναπληρουται, Is Again fulfilled: this proper meaning of the Greek word has been generally overlooked. The evangelist means, that as these words were fulfilled in the Jews, in the time of the Prophet Isaiah, so they are now again fulfilled in these their posterity, who exactly copy their fathers example. These awful words may be again fulfilled in us, if we take not warning by the things which these disobedient people have suffered.
Clarke



Is fulfilled (anaplhroutai). Aoristic present passive indicative. Here Jesus points out the fulfilment and not with Matthew's usual formula (ina or opw plwrhqh to rhqen (see John 1:22 ). The verb anaplhrow occurs nowhere else in the Gospels, but occurs in the Pauline Epistles. It means to fill up like a cup, to fill another's place ( 1 Corinthians 14:16 ), to fill up what is lacking ( Philippians 2:30 ). Here it means that the prophecy of Isaiah is fully satisfied in the conduct of the Pharisees and Jesus himself points it out. Note two ways of reproducing the Hebrew idiom (infinitive absolute), one by akoh the other by bleponte. Note also the strong negative ou mh with aorist subjunctive.
Robertsons



10 Then the disciples came up and asked Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" 11 He answered them, "Because the secrets does not mean "mysteries" in the Eng sense; it means what we can know only by divine revelation. of the kingdom of heaven have been given for you to know, but it has not been given to them. 12 For whoever has, [more] will be given to him, and he will have more than enough. But whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 For this reason I speak to them in parables, because looking they do not see, and hearing they do not listen or understand. 14 Isaiah's prophecy is fulfilled in them, which says: You will listen and listen, yet never understand; and you will look and look, yet never perceive. 15 For this people's heart has grown callous; their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn back- and I would cure them. 16 "But your eyes are blessed because they do see, and your ears because they do hear!
Holman
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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That just sorta took all the spin outa the futurist view.:)
lol. i doubt it.
maybe:)
never hear back from any who go "aha"
so hard to know.

for the jews sake
and for the unity of the church i wish
this was clear
but dispensationalism is a stronghold
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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That just sorta took all the spin outa the futurist view.:)
you know, mike.
the very same things were said by Jesus to the churches in Revelation - about having ears to hear.

yet we never suggest Christians have been blinded for their own good, do we?
 
A

Abiding

Guest
True, same principle. Things dont change
sometimes thats good tho
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,409
6,694
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I have always called the Lord, Jesus, because that is what the New Testament names Him. Nowhere in the New Testament is the Lord called Yeshua, so I believe those sects that demand He be called Yeshua to be in error. However, I do use Yeshua when witnessing to Israelis because it is their language and I try to become all things to all men if perchance I might win some.

Very minor issue, though, like red letter Bibles.
I did explain that in no manner is calling our Lord by His given name in Hebrew transliterated to English a command. I also indicated in the Word there is no command to call Him by the name transliterated first from the Hebrew then from the Greek into English, Jesus.
I really do love Jews, especially those who call upon Yeshua in spirit and truth. What I do not like is for someone to attempt to influence my preference of the original name of our Lord transliterated from the language He and His people at the time spoke.
Let me make this crystal clear, no one of His disciples would have called Him by any other name. Also, I worship the Lord with all who love Him regardless of which name they use. We are all family in the Messiah who love Him, His Message, and what He has done for us each.
To pick on any individual for calling Jesus by His given name is definitely going off the Gospel track, and for this very reason I cannot do the same simply because the majority have opted for the double transliterated name, Jesus. I love my family in Jesus, and I call Him Yeshua.
He was prophesied to be Yeshua, and later by popular consensus His name became Jesus. Messiah crucified is the foremost for any child of Yahweh, God, to always keep in mind, heart and soul as the guide to personal conduct in the sight of the Father. Pleasing Him is my goal and that of all who love His Only Begotten Son, amen.
 
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T

Therapon

Guest
To pick on any individual for calling Jesus by His given name is definitely going off the Gospel track, and for this very reason I cannot do the same simply because the majority have opted for the double transliterated name, Jesus. I love my family in Jesus, and I call Him Yeshua.
I said it was a very minor issue, like red letter Bibles. I don't want to go to war over it. <smile>
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,409
6,694
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Thank you, and I stand corrected. Seeing the word, sect, employed sent up a flag. Please do not associate those who love the name Yeshua's parents called Him with a sect. Again, it is not a commandment, simply a preference. Reading the Word for my first time in Hebrew has satisfied me that there is no great mystery revealed in reading Hebrew. Of course from the first knowledge of the Word after receiving the Holy Spirit I knew that one could obtain the truth from any source as long as it is imparted by the Holy Spirit. The most important lesson I first learned is life is in the Creator not in the creation. He is all in all, amen. Please forgive my hasty reply.[QUOTE=Therapon;914702]

I said it was a very minor issue, like red letter Bibles. I don't want to go to war over it. <smile>
[/QUOTE]
 
T

Therapon

Guest
[QUOTE=JaumeJ;914725]Thank you, and I stand corrected. Seeing the word, sect, employed sent up a flag. Please forgive my hasty reply.[/QUOTE]

Of course, forget it. Acording to the dictionary, "sect" can have a bad conotation, but not always, all of us being members of one "sect" or another. Here is what the dictionary says: "from Late Latin secta, an organized ecclesiastical body, from Latin, course of action, way of life, probably from sectari, to pursue."
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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I did explain that in no manner is calling our Lord by His given name in Hebrew transliterated to English a command. I also indicated in the Word there is no command to call Him by the name transliterated first from the Hebrew then from the Greek into English, Jesus.
I really do love Jews, especially those who call upon Yeshua in spirit and truth. What I do not like is for someone to attempt to influence my preference of the original name of our Lord transliterated from the language He and His people at the time spoke.
Let me make this crystal clear, no one of His disciples would have called Him by any other name. Also, I worship the Lord with all who love Him regardless of which name they use. We are all family in the Messiah who love Him, His Message, and what He has done for us each.
To pick on any individual for calling Jesus by His given name is definitely going off the Gospel track, and for this very reason I cannot do the same simply because the majority have opted for the double transliterated name, Jesus. I love my family in Jesus, and I call Him Yeshua.
He was prophesied to be Yeshua, and later by popular consensus His name became Jesus. Messiah crucified is the foremost for any child of Yahweh, God, to always keep in mind, heart and soul as the guide to personal conduct in the sight of the Father. Pleasing Him is my goal and that of all who love His Only Begotten Son, amen.
hi jack:)
His disciples would have called Him Adonai or Kurios, wouldn't they?:)

as for popular consensus being the reason so many pronounce Yeshua's Name as Jesus, well...Yeshua is pronounced according to the language one speaks.

God ordained (may we even say created?) our languages...since we know that the Tower of Babel incident was instantaneous!

the people suddenly spoke different languages.
that incredible Miracle on the Day of Pentecost was kind of a reversal:) as we know.
again, showing only He was at Work.
sometimes i think about what that Day must have been like.
amazing!

anyways, i know you don't intend to say there's anything sinister or lacking in the Name Jesus.

Our Father ordained the New Testament would be in Koine Greek, and i suppose He had a good reason for doing so.

Ἰησοῦς Iēsous...God did not mind the gentiles calling on Ἰησοῦς, knowing He was Χριστός, the מָשִׁיחַ

love zone.

Yaakov
Jacob
John
Jack
James
Diago
 
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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,409
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The way His name is spoken depends on the language employed, however in English people have opted to use the second hand transliteration from the Greek. Jesus is the transliteration from the transliteration from Hebrew, confused yet? Others may dispute this but there are as many who understand it to be this way as there are who do not.
Names were for the most part groups of words assembled to denote attributes or qualities hoped for in a child, and in many Hebrew instances, they were mini-prophecies. The angel said to Mary that she was to call His name Yeshua for He would save His people, His people being all who believe Him, the Jew first and then the Greek. Now Yeshua or Jesus makes absolutely no sense at all in regard to what the angel said unless you take the name, Yeshua, and break it down to what it means. The words going together to make His name are "(The) Salvation of Yah(weh)," or God's salvation. As you see, I have put it in plain English words also. Don't forget Yahweh is completely translated as "I Am," Who actively exists on His own power. My family in Christ is all who call upon the Only Begotten Son of God, and by whatever name with which they feel comfortable. Having been a student of languages and linguistics at the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana, this type of study is by nature my interest. At present I am trudging through the Word in Hebrew for my first time. I am by no means fluent or even proficient beyond reading very slowly with helps. I am at Job, chapter 3, and it will take me a long, long while to finish. The meaning of many names, and their origins are important to me for best understanding of what certain prophets have given us from the Lord.

Now as for being called adon or adonai, those are titles, but it stands to reason the disciples would have used the Hebrew tongue spoken at the time of our Lord's mission here in His creation because of the nature of who they were and their calling. The pharisees would certainly have called Jesus or any of His disciples on the carpet were they to teach anything related to the Word of Yahweh in any language other than the language of the Jews. It would have been outrageous. By the same token, they did call Him by His name, they called Him, Rabbi, and many other titles of honor. It is not important for anyone who loves Jesus to call Him by any name other than the name with which they are the most comfortable. It is not a challenge by any means when I use His given name in Hebrew transliterated to English. Were we to call Him by His Name in English, I suppose we would have to call Him something like "Salvation of God" in English. Of course Yeshua is the way His Hebrew name is pronounced by most in English, but when I say it, I have the words comprising His glorious name in mind. So do most who call Him Jesus. No dispute from me........... [Q
UOTE=zone;914907]hi jack:)
His disciples would have called Him Adonai or Kurios, wouldn't they?:)

as for popular consensus being the reason so many pronounce Yeshua's Name as Jesus, well...Yeshua is pronounced according to the language one speaks.

God ordained (may we even say created?) our languages...since we know that the Tower of Babel incident was instantaneous!

the people suddenly spoke different languages.
that incredible Miracle on the Day of Pentecost was kind of a reversal:) as we know.
again, showing only He was at Work.
sometimes i think about what that Day must have been like.
amazing!

anyways, i know you don't intend to say there's anything sinister or lacking in the Name Jesus.

Our Father ordained the New Testament would be in Koine Greek, and i suppose He had a good reason for doing so.

Ἰησοῦς Iēsous...God did not mind the gentiles calling on Ἰησοῦς, knowing He was Χριστός, the מָשִׁיחַ

love zone.

Yaakov
Jacob
John
Jack
James
Diago
[/QUOTE]
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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that's cool jack.
i may yet one day attempt to study greek, Lord willing.

so, why do we pronounce Job with a J?

:)

zone
 
Oct 22, 2011
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Was God unjust and unmerciful when he killed the children of Israel JEWS (all over the age of 20 years) when they left Egypt and crossed the wilderness?
We're not talking about those in the wilderness, we are talking about those who have been spiritually blinded to not recognize the gospel of Jesus Christ. Do you believe they are in transgression because they have been given the spirit of slumber? Doesn't scripture tell us, for where no law is, there is no transgression? Romans 4:15

1Christianwarrior316
 
A

Abiding

Guest
would answering why they were given the spirit of slumber again
and pointing to scripture help?
doubt it. :p
 
Oct 22, 2011
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Where do you get this crap?

Is this the type of language we should see on a Christian forum eternally? Come on brother if you disagree you should know how to answer every man, Col 4:6

They blinded themselves,
Really.. So this verse is a lie?
Rom 11:8
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.


1Christianwarrior316

 
Oct 22, 2011
628
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would answering why they were given the spirit of slumber again
and pointing to scripture help?
doubt it. :p
I'll just say this brother, Let us agree to disagee on this. May the Lord Bless you brother.

1Christianwarrior316
 
A

Abiding

Guest
I'll just say this brother, Let us agree to disagee on this. May the Lord Bless you brother.

1Christianwarrior316
really dont care what you do or who you agree or disagree with. But why misrepresent God? And scripture?

what do you understand of this? And who gives you the right to spin off your lack of understanding and
make your sentement as if it was scripture?

They blinded themselves,



Really.. So this verse is a lie?
Rom 11:8
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.



Theres nothing wrong with that verse you showed. But what does it mean? Its a quote from Isa 29
If you had read Isa 29 youd see why the slumber happened to, why, and the timeframe if any.

Yes, a:)nd blessing to you also
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,409
6,694
113
It surprised me that Job is pronounced, my transliteration, iyov. There is no J in Hebrew, but you knew that. J sound I should say. I love reading what the prophets and the law say about The Lamb of God. It is all true, praise Jesus Christ, amen! (Thank you.)
that's cool jack.
i may yet one day attempt to study greek, Lord willing.

so, why do we pronounce Job with a J?

:)

zone
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,409
6,694
113
The J sounded in Job's name is probably also from the Greek influence of Biblical translations, even those from the Hebrew. Here in Spain I hear a lot of Hebrew and Arabic influence in the language. An interesting bit of linguistic trivia, the term in Spanish, Ojala que, comes from the Moorish (Arabic) meaning Allah willing........languages! can't live with them, can't live without them....Another strange yet intriguing tidbit, this time from my reading in Job, in one manner of the Hebrew writings Job uses the second person singular feminine addressing Yahweh. In other places, Yahweh uses the feminine form of the second person talking to Abraham. This exchange of gender in pronouns is not uncommon in use in the Hebrew language, and usually it denotes love or affection. Go figure! PS . . I love you! [QUOTE=zone;914937]that's cool jack.
i may yet one day attempt to study greek, Lord willing.

so, why do we pronounce Job with a J?

:)

zone[/QUOTE]
 
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