While it is true that the Israelites escaped the 10 plagues, Noah escaped via the Ark and Lot escaped the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, there will be no place to escape to on the earth during the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, for God's wrath will be upon the whole earth, the severity of which you guys are not understanding.
You totally missed my point. The Israelites were IN Egypt and yet escaped all the plagues. Some of which parallel some of God's wrath during the Trib. Second, neither Noah or Lot left the earth, so there is no reason to try to use either of them to illustrate a rapture.
The whole key to a pre trib rapture is a verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
Why that doesn't bother you guys is beyond me. The very essence of the pretrib doctrine is Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven, and yet, there are NO verses showing such an action.
There will be no Ark's to get on and no small cities to flee to.
Right. And just like the Israelites IN Egypt, the FAITHFUL believers will be spared God's wrath (Rev 3:10). They won't be spared the evil that will come from the beast (aka a/c), including martyrdom.
Speaking of Rev 3:10, why do you guys use this verse to support a pretrib rapture when it is clear that only faithful believers will escape?
These plagues of wrath will be unprecedented, not to mention the fact the church is never mentioned during the narrative of God's wrath.
I'm always intrigued by those who use this argument. The Church actually BOOKENDS the entire Book of Revelation.
Ch 1-3 are specifically TO the Church. Note 1:1 - The revelation from Jesus Christ, which
God gave him to show his servants (the Church) what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Now, in the LAST chapter, 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have
sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
See any similarity? The ENTIRE book is FOR the Church.
So, there is NO REASON OR NEED to mention the Church in any chapter. The bookends say it all. It is ALL for the Church.
The last time that it is mentioned, is at the end of chapter 3, with chapter 4:1 prophetically representing the gathering of the church.
Oops. You may now apologize for your error.
So I responded stating that all true believers, those who have endured patiently and have overcome, will be gathered by the Lord.[/QUOTE]
So it seems you believe that unfaithful believers will simply miss the rapture then? Do they end up in hell?
I said:
"Every believer will be gathered when Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent to set up His kingdom."
Before I comment on the above let's establish some definitions here.
Gathering of the church = The Lord's descent to the atmosphere to call up the dead and living believers which is imminent
Second Advent = The Lord's physical and visual return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom
While the gathering of the church is imminent, the Lord's return to the earth to end the age is not, as all of the wrath of God must take place first.
Then it appears from this, that you don't believe v.2-3, which very plainly state that neither the Second Advent OR the "gathering to Him" will occur until the Rebellion (Tribulation) and man of lawlessness (antichrist) is revealed.
Thank you for finally admitting when the rapture will occur.
You see, the 2 events noted in v.1 cannot occur until the Trib and beast (a/c) are revealed.
Your are correct, in that the resurrection found in Rev.20:4-5 will take place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.
Again, thank you for noticing this believer resurrection. And, btw, there is only 1 believer resurrection according to the Bible. Not a bunch of phased ones as you guys are forced to do.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be
a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. One each, if you understand English. Just one for believers and one for unbelievers.
This is further supported by 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The context here is the resurrection of the righteous, which Christ being the FIRST one, called "firstfruits". Then the very clear words;
"THEN, when He comes (Second Advent) those who belong to Him."
If you see a number of phased resurrections here, you are just seeing things. What follows AFTER "firstfruits" is very clear; ALL believers who belong to Him will be resurrected. When He comes. That means every saved person from Adam on.
So, 2 verses that prove that all believers will be resurrected at one time, WHEN He comes.