Could the tribulation start this year?

[FreeGrace2]

this part

“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

doesn’t support a pre trib rapture God has always done that for his people but not as you are thinking but rather like this

You should consider how he spares them from the troubles of earth

Kinda sad that people use Rev 3:10 as their "escape plan" before the Trib. In fact, the verse only applies to faithful believers, not every single one. So how do they explain that fact?

The real rapture is for every believer alive when Jesus comes. So Rev 3:10 cannot be referring to a rapture, because it is not for every believer.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Kinda sad that people use Rev 3:10 as their "escape plan" before the Trib. In fact, the verse only applies to faithful believers, not every single one. So how do they explain that fact?

The real rapture is for every believer alive when Jesus comes. So Rev 3:10 cannot be referring to a rapture, because it is not for every believer.

yes there’s just the one return of Christ and it all happens suddenly while the world is moving on as normal and the Christians go throw many forms of tribulation and trial and testing of their faith

temptations are pressed before us constantly by technology and social media constantly inviting us to argue over oolitics and begin to hate each other .

we in the world forsake the poor and needy because of selfishness , our eyes are constantly full of lust and greed and power seeking , we exalt ourselves formoir accomplishments , we approve of things that are abominable in the sight of God

there are thousands of Christian martyrs across the world who die every year sometimes 80 thousand other times five thousand but it’s ongoing they aren’t saved from the terrible effects of a world ruled temporally by the devil they aren’t in love with their worldly life they are looking into the promises of faith beyond this world

Peter was crucified as Jesus told him he would be , Paul was beheaded after he endured all of his tribulation and trials recorded in scripture he truly suffered greatly for Christ as he was told he must suffer when he was called , they were flogged , crucified , cut in sections , boiled in oils , cut asunder , fed tonsils beasts because they refused to reject the faith as they faced neros accusations

but in the end of all his trials and sorrows and tribulation , persecution as he was set to face Nero the second time he wrote to his dear Timothy

“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

( that’s what Jesus said to many people would claim his name and lead many astray in deception and cause the church to become cold in love and turn on one another as the world does )

But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:1-8, 10-11‬

Paul was facing his execution before Nero my point is that whatever befalls us in the lord for righteousness sake is part of the tribulation whether we’re in the end or beginning even the prophets faced the same

If we could grab onto faith of the unseen

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Women received their dead raised to life again: ( Elijah the prophets work ) and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13, 16, 24-26, 35-

 

[Ahwatukee]

Kinda sad that people use Rev 3:10 as their "escape plan" before the Trib. In fact, the verse only applies to faithful believers, not every single one. So how do they explain that fact?

The real rapture is for every believer alive when Jesus comes. So Rev 3:10 cannot be referring to a rapture, because it is not for every believer.

Yes, the church will escape the tribulation period, because the church is not appointed to suffer it. It will be God's wrath being poured out upon a Christ rejecting world, those who are embracing the sinful nature.

Where do you get the idea that the Lord's promise is not to every single believer? The only people that will not be gathered, will be those who were not watching, who had gone back into willfully living according to the sinful nature and the of course the wicked. The promise applies to the true church, each individual believer who are enduring patiently in faith and who overcome. And yes, it is referring to the gathering of the church. The Lord says "I will keep you out of the hour of trial," not through it or during it, but out of it.

In Rev.1:19, the Lord told John to write:

What you have seen = everything written from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19

What is Now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period

What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period

Then in Rev.4:1, you have the Lord's voice which sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this," which is synonymous with the "what must take place later." This is a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered, which is why the word ekklesia/church no longer appears in the narrative. Where throughout chapters 1 thru 3 it was used 19 times. The word ekklesia/church is never used during the narrative of God's wrath. It is replaced with the word hagios/Saints, which is referring to the saints who will have become believers after the gathering of the church and during the seven year period of God's wrath.

The wrath of God that is coming via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will be unprecedented plagues of wrath the likes of which the world has never seen, which begins at the opening of the 1st seal, followed by the trumpets and bowl judgments in their chronological order. The underlying principle is that, Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. It is this wrath (or any wrath) that believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer. Because of this, the Lord will descend to the atmosphere to gather His church prior to the 1st seal being opened where He will take the entire church back to the Father's house according to His promise in John 14:1-3.

Why don't you guys try learning something instead of immediately looking to distort and circumvent the information that has been given.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, the church will escape the tribulation period, because the church is not appointed to suffer it. It will be God's wrath being poured out upon a Christ rejecting world, those who are embracing the sinful nature.

Where do you get the idea that the Lord's promise is not to every single believer? The only people that will not be gathered, will be those who were not watching, who had gone back into willfully living according to the sinful nature and the of course the wicked. The promise applies to the true church, each individual believer who are enduring patiently in faith and who overcome. And yes, it is referring to the gathering of the church. The Lord says "I will keep you out of the hour of trial," not through it or during it, but out of it.

In Rev.1:19, the Lord told John to write:

What you have seen = everything written from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19

What is Now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period

What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period

Then in Rev.4:1, you have the Lord's voice which sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this," which is synonymous with the "what must take place later." This is a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered, which is why the word ekklesia/church no longer appears in the narrative. Where throughout chapters 1 thru 3 it was used 19 times. The word ekklesia/church is never used during the narrative of God's wrath. It is replaced with the word hagios/Saints, which is referring to the saints who will have become believers after the gathering of the church and during the seven year period of God's wrath.

The wrath of God that is coming via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will be unprecedented plagues of wrath the likes of which the world has never seen, which begins at the opening of the 1st seal, followed by the trumpets and bowl judgments in their chronological order. The underlying principle is that, Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. It is this wrath (or any wrath) that believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer. Because of this, the Lord will descend to the atmosphere to gather His church prior to the 1st seal being opened where He will take the entire church back to the Father's house according to His promise in John 14:1-3.

Why don't you guys try learning something instead of immediately looking to distort and circumvent the information that has been given.

“But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭9:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Your missing the reality of suffering for righteousness sake not for sin mind you but for the kingdom

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s for our glory if we don’t reject it but look at the fellowship part of it and the end glory


“And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s not arbitrary differing it is his design for his children look at Jesus it makes us more like him of we are tested and tried and if we endure whatever suffering comes along in faith

it’s certainly an appointment to the church and not worth rejecting because temporary doesn’t compare with eternal

 

[Ahwatukee]

this part

“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

doesn’t support a pre trib rapture God has always done that for his people but not as you are thinking but rather like this

You should consider how he spares them from the troubles of earth

That is why I listed the scripture which uses the word 'ek' which means 'out of.' I will keep you out of the hour of trial, not through it or during it. Usually people reject this because it destroys their mid or post tribulation view, which it does. This is also why from chapter 4 onward we never see the word ekklesia/church again. It disappears from the narrative of God's wrath. This is not a coincidence, but is because Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church.

God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. Because of the unprecedent severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, there will be no Ark's to get on, nor any small cities to flee to, because these plagues of wrath will affect the entire world and all of its inhabitants.

we need to think spiritually and forget about how we think from flesh , when a good and righteous man dies in that case those who kept his word when they are martyred or die young it’s because God is taking them out of the world out of this world

That would be false thinking! All of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect all flesh physically on the earth. The reason the church cannot be on the earth during that time is because it will be God's direct wrath, which is not the same as the trials and tribulations that Jesus said we would have because of our faith. God's coming wrath will be for punishment. Everything that takes place during that seven year period falls under the wrath of God. To be clear about this, neither Paul nor the other apostles, nor the first century church were experiencing God's wrath, but the trials and persecutions that the Lord said they would experience as a result of their faith. God's coming wrath is not those common trials and tribulations, but God's plagues of punishment.

when a believer in the lord dies or gets martyred unjustly it’s a blessing because they are delivered into the kingdom alive now resting from the labors and sorrows of earth

“And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:13‬ ‭KJ

The reference above, is to the saints who will have become believers after the gathering of the church and during the time of God's wrath, who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17 as the saints who will come out of the great tribulation period. This is why Jesus warns us to always be watching for His appearing and continuing in faith and not willfully indulging in the sinful nature, so that that the time period of God's wrath does not close on us like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole world.

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9-10, 13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they have been taken from the hour of temptation and trial on earth you see them witnessing it here

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12‬ ‭

they were delivered from the woes of this world but they went through it first and there’s tribulation always for many even as others on the other side of the world have peace and forget the others suffering sll
Over the world martyred and taken from the earth to spare them from it

Those above are the great tribulation saints which I mentioned above and not the church. You need to pay closer attention to the details which is what I have been sharing with you.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That is why I listed the scripture which uses the word 'ek' which means 'out of.' I will keep you out of the hour of trial, not through it or during it. Usually people reject this because it destroys their mid or post tribulation view, which it does. This is also why from chapter 4 onward we never see the word ekklesia/church again. It disappears from the narrative of God's wrath. This is not a coincidence, but is because Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church.

God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. Because of the unprecedent severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, there will be no Ark's to get on, nor any small cities to flee to, because these plagues of wrath will affect the entire world and all of its inhabitants.



That would be false thinking! All of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect all flesh physically on the earth. The reason the church cannot be on the earth during that time is because it will be God's direct wrath, which is not the same as the trials and tribulations that Jesus said we would have because of our faith. God's coming wrath will be for punishment. Everything that takes place during that seven year period falls under the wrath of God. To be clear about this, neither Paul nor the other apostles, nor the first century church were experiencing God's wrath, but the trials and persecutions that the Lord said they would experience as a result of their faith. God's coming wrath is not those common trials and tribulations, but God's plagues of punishment.



The reference above, is to the saints who will have become believers after the gathering of the church and during the time of God's wrath, who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17 as the saints who will come out of the great tribulation period. This is why Jesus warns us to always be watching for His appearing and continuing in faith and not willfully indulging in the sinful nature, so that that the time period of God's wrath does not close on us like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole world.



Those above are the great tribulation saints which I mentioned above and not the church. You need to pay closer attention to the details which is what I have been sharing with you.

Mayes it always goes away from any scripture with you of scripture is ever presented to you you start explaining thkngs from many sources and ales us insist you have it figured out

but can you believe just what’s in scripture without explaining it away with your opinion on Greek words or Hebrew context of theologians studies ?

until later no one was arguing about how to understand a certain word they were interested in the message that is held me explodes out from the scriptures without any other source of knowledge necassary only faith in the one who spoke th e scripture

when doeninderstanding stop being something God provided to those who ask rather than searching the world to explain the letters and spelling of words ?

it’s just about the message that repeats itself again and again and again on the scripture if it always requires us to intellectually argue about Greek and Hebrew only intellectual people would ever have any understanding of scripture

it seems to me when we can’t hear it we have to search the world to be convinced we were already right and the scripture is misleading others because they believe just what’s there and don’t have interest in being dragged away from the message that’s there me the spirit that wrote it is in us

 

[Ahwatukee]

Mayes it always goes away from any scripture with you of scripture is ever presented to you you start explaining thkngs from many sources and ales us insist you have it figured out

but can you believe just what’s in scripture without explaining it away with your opinion on Greek words or Hebrew context of theologians studies ?

It is important to bring in all of the other scriptures regarding any given subject in order to come to a right conclusion. As an example: In Matt.24:31 it states that at the end of the age, the Lord will send out His angels and they will gather His elect from the four corners of the earth. If we bring in the parable found in Matt.13 of the weeds and the wheat, we find that it is the weeds who are gathered first, then the wheat. But you won't find that bit of detail in Matt.24:31, as it just mentions the elect. To continue with the example, if we bring in Rev.19:11-21 which is a detailed account of when the Lord descends to the earth to end the age, then we have a whole lot more detail that is not mentioned in either Matt.13 or 24 which can be added to the information of when the Lord returns. As another example, Rev.19:11 has the Lord descending to earth on a white horse, which is neither mentioned in Matt.13 nor 24. When you put all of the scriptures together with all of their details, then you get a bigger picture of what that day will entail when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. One of the biggest problems in contending with people, is that they come in with only partial information.

Also, I use Greek words sometimes to show the meaning of that word. For example, there are those who have attempted to use the word 'apostasia' translating it as 'departure' so that they can interpret the scripture in 2 Thess.2 as meaning to depart up into the sky to meet the Lord. So I state the meaning of the word, demonstrating that it must retain the meaning of the Greek word, which is to depart from one's stand in faith and cannot be used to mean depart up into the air.

Presenting the actual Greek words has become needful because of all of the erroneous teachings that have come into the church.

until later no one was arguing about how to understand a certain word they were interested in the message that is held me explodes out from the scriptures without any other source of knowledge necessary only faith in the one who spoke the scripture

when doeninderstanding stop being something God provided to those who ask rather than searching the world to explain the letters and spelling of words ?

If you are speaking about the people of that time, they knew what the words meant and therefore it was not needed to contend against the teachings that have crept into the church in these last days.

it’s just about the message that repeats itself again and again and again on the scripture if it always requires us to intellectually argue about Greek and Hebrew only intellectual people would ever have any understanding of scripture

it seems to me when we can’t hear it we have to search the world to be convinced we were already right and the scripture is misleading others because they believe just what’s there and don’t have interest in being dragged away from the message that’s there me the spirit that wrote it is in us

We have entered a time when God's word is being attacked from every side and so we need to be armed with the word of God on every level, including the correct meanings of the Hebrew and Greek words and how they are used elsewhere in scripture.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It is important to bring in all of the other scriptures regarding any given subject in order to come to a right conclusion. As an example: In Matt.24:31 it states that at the end of the age, the Lord will send out His angels and they will gather His elect from the four corners of the earth. If we bring in the parable found in Matt.13 of the weeds and the wheat, we find that it is the weeds who are gathered first, then the wheat. But you won't find that bit of detail in Matt.24:31, as it just mentions the elect. To continue with the example, if we bring in Rev.19:11-21 which is a detailed account of when the Lord descends to the earth to end the age, then we have a whole lot more detail that is not mentioned in either Matt.13 or 24 which can be added to the information of when the Lord returns. As another example, Rev.19:11 has the Lord descending to earth on a white horse, which is neither mentioned in Matt.13 nor 24. When you put all of the scriptures together with all of their details, then you get a bigger picture of what that day will entail when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. One of the biggest problems in contending with people, is that they come in with only partial information.

Also, I use Greek words sometimes to show the meaning of that word. For example, there are those who have attempted to use the word 'apostasia' translating it as 'departure' so that they can interpret the scripture in 2 Thess.2 as meaning to depart up into the sky to meet the Lord. So I state the meaning of the word, demonstrating that it must retain the meaning of the Greek word, which is to depart from one's stand in faith and cannot be used to mean depart up into the air.

Presenting the actual Greek words has become needful because of all of the erroneous teachings that have come into the church.



If you are speaking about the people of that time, they knew what the words meant and therefore it was not needed to contend against the teachings that have crept into the church in these last days.



We have entered a time when God's word is being attacked from every side and so we need to be armed with the word of God on every level, including the correct meanings of the Hebrew and Greek words and how they are used elsewhere in scripture.

Okay brother God bless and thanks for responding

 

[Ahwatukee]

Okay brother God bless and thanks for responding

And God bless you as well. I'm greatly concerned about the truth and accuracy of God's word.

"For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

That time has come.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

And God bless you as well. I'm greatly concerned about the truth and accuracy of God's word.

"For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

That time has come.

Yes I am also that’s why I stay in the scripture pray always to understand and specifically build everything I believe on this guys word forst and foremost

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬


and do everything I can to stay away from this trying to pull my faith away from the truth

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I believe that’s what Paul’s talking about he knew the truth so I take it as an exhortation that of teachings pull us away from his the truths word that’s what that scripture is meant to stop from happening that’s why I don’t seek after foreign explanations and believe scripture answers it’s own mystery but again I believe it’s sources in this guys word which is the reason i believe in the post tribulation raptire and all the thkngs thy truth said about suffering of his disciples and things like that because those false teachers are trying to pull our ears away from the truth not the other way around so this word is true

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:24-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you sort of made my point the truth is there and spoken but the many teachings are trying to get us away from the truth Jesus words aren’t trying to pull us from truth but the other sources that came later are

 

[rayzor]

either way it seem that it has more to do with circumcising the heat consider john 6:66.To understand whats being said and to understand the number assoclation in this case the number of the beast one's eye's have to be open by god. second point even Jesus does not know the time of his return, thus the you seek may not be attainable in the now.

 

[rayzor]

i mean the knowedge you seek may be hidden from man for now

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, the church will escape the tribulation period, because the church is not appointed to suffer it.

The Israelites escaped the 10 plagues of Egypt all the while living IN Egypt.

Where do you get the idea that the Lord's promise is not to every single believer?

I don't have that idea. Where did you get the idea that I did?

The only people that will not be gathered, will be those who were not watching, who had gone back into willfully living according to the sinful nature and the of course the wicked.

Every believer will be gathered when Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent to set up His kingdom.

Why don't you guys try learning something instead of immediately looking to distort and circumvent the information that has been given.

This is pitiful. We have provided clear verses that show the resurrection (Rev 20:4,5) and rapture (2 Thess 2:1) occur when Christ returns at the Second Advent.

It is you guys who can't show ANY verse where Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers back up to heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm greatly concerned about the truth and accuracy of God's word.

Then please provide a verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The Israelites escaped the 10 plagues of Egypt all the while living IN Egypt.

While it is true that the Israelites escaped the 10 plagues, Noah escaped via the Ark and Lot escaped the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, there will be no place to escape to on the earth during the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, for God's wrath will be upon the whole earth, the severity of which you guys are not understanding. There will be no Ark's to get on and no small cities to flee to. These plagues of wrath will be unprecedented, not to mention the fact the church is never mentioned during the narrative of God's wrath. The last time that it is mentioned, is at the end of chapter 3, with chapter 4:1 prophetically representing the gathering of the church.

I don't have that idea. Where did you get the idea that I did?

Because you said the following:

"Kinda sad that people use Rev 3:10 as their "escape plan" before the Trib. In fact, the verse only applies to faithful believers, not every single one. So how do they explain that fact?

So I responded stating that all true believers, those who have endured patiently and have overcome, will be gathered by the Lord.

Every believer will be gathered when Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent to set up His kingdom.

Before I comment on the above let's establish some definitions here.

Gathering of the church = The Lord's descent to the atmosphere to call up the dead and living believers which is imminent

Second Advent = The Lord's physical and visual return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom

While the gathering of the church is imminent, the Lord's return to the earth to end the age is not, as all of the wrath of God must take place first.

This is pitiful. We have provided clear verses that show the resurrection (Rev 20:4,5) and rapture (2 Thess 2:1) occur when Christ returns at the Second Advent.

Your are correct, in that the resurrection found in Rev.20:4-5 will take place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. However, it is not the church who is resurrected, but those saints who will have died during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period who were seen under the altar at the opening of the 5th seal and those who will have died during the great tribulation, which is the last 3 1/2 years. The church will have already been resurrected prior to the on-set of God's wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal.

It is you guys who can't show ANY verse where Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers back up to heaven.

I've already shown you the scripture, but you reject it. So, here it is again. Instead of circumventing it, actually study it:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

* My Father's house equals heaven

* Jesus went to the Father's house to prepare places for us there

* The Lord promised to come back again to get us (Resurrection/Rapture) to take us back to the Father's house, so that believers within the church could be where the Lord is, which would be in the Father's house, which is in heaven.

So, how is it that you say there is no scriptures that say that believers are being taken back to heaven? It's easy to make that claim if you continue to reject them.

We also have Rev.19:6-8 showing that the bride/church is already in heaven attending the wedding of the Lamb. And verse 14 shows the bride following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses to engage the beast, the kings and their armies at Armageddon. Revelation 17:14 also shows the "Called, chosen and faithful followers" which will be those who will have previously resurrected and raptured, as being with the Lord as He descends to the earth to end the age.

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

 

[Ahwatukee]

Then please provide a verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

See post #395

 

[randyk]

While it is true that the Israelites escaped the 10 plagues, Noah escaped via the Ark and Lot escaped the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, there will be no place to escape to on the earth during the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, for God's wrath will be upon the whole earth, the severity of which you guys are not understanding. There will be no Ark's to get on and no small cities to flee to. These plagues of wrath will be unprecedented, not to mention the fact the church is never mentioned during the narrative of God's wrath. The last time that it is mentioned, is at the end of chapter 3, with chapter 4:1 prophetically representing the gathering of the church.




Because you said the following:



So I responded stating that all true believers, those who have endured patiently and have overcome, will be gathered by the Lord.



Before I comment on the above let's establish some definitions here.

Gathering of the church = The Lord's descent to the atmosphere to call up the dead and living believers which is imminent

Second Advent = The Lord's physical and visual return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom

While the gathering of the church is imminent, the Lord's return to the earth to end the age is not, as all of the wrath of God must take place first.



Your are correct, in that the resurrection found in Rev.20:4-5 will take place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. However, it is not the church who is resurrected, but those saints who will have died during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period who were seen under the altar at the opening of the 5th seal and those who will have died during the great tribulation, which is the last 3 1/2 years. The church will have already been resurrected prior to the on-set of God's wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal.



I've already shown you the scripture, but you reject it. So, here it is again. Instead of circumventing it, actually study it:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

* My Father's house equals heaven

* Jesus went to the Father's house to prepare places for us there

* The Lord promised to come back again to get us (Resurrection/Rapture) to take us back to the Father's house, so that believers within the church could be where the Lord is, which would be in the Father's house, which is in heaven.

So, how is it that you say there is no scriptures that say that believers are being taken back to heaven? It's easy to make that claim if you continue to reject them.

We also have Rev.19:6-8 showing that the bride/church is already in heaven attending the wedding of the Lamb. And verse 14 shows the bride following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses to engage the beast, the kings and their armies at Armageddon. Revelation 17:14 also shows the "Called, chosen and faithful followers" which will be those who will have previously resurrected and raptured, as being with the Lord as He descends to the earth to end the age.

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

This is a major reason Pretrib should be rejected. All of your arguments lack precision.
1) You say God's wrath over the whole earth leaves no place for Christians to escape--therefore, you say, they must have left to heaven. Trouble is, Pretribbers admit there are Tribulation saints. If all Christians escape by going to heaven, there are no Tribulation saints.
2) Pretribbers claim the Philadelphian Church escapes the hour of trial over the whole earth. If there is no means of escape from a comprehensive wrath on earth, how did the Philadelphian Church escape without being caught up to heaven?
3) You say Rev 4.1 is symbolic of the Church Rapture to heaven. But nothing in the passage remotely suggests this. Only John is caught up to see visions in heaven.
4) You say that Jesus promised us a mansion in heaven, and that he comes back to take us there. But Postribbers accept a Rapture to heaven. Why would this prove Pretrib?
5) You say visions of the Church in heaven in the book of Revelation prove a Pretrib Rapture. But visions of Christians in heaven could be the departed saints, or they could be pictures of the ultimate destiny of the Church with God.

Nothing you say remotely resembles Pretrib *doctrine.* You can't make doctrine out of "suggestions," or your own assumptions. Pretrib is *not* taught anywhere in the Bible. There is an occasional escape from trouble, and there is certainly ultimate escape from God's wrath against unbelievers. But we are never promised escape from the tribulations of this earth, as long as we're here. Your doctrine does not hold up.

That's why Christians have not seen Pretrib in the pages of the Bible for 1800 years, before Darby began to insert his own assumptions into various passages. His friend who wrote a reference Bible transmitted the message to America that these passages inferred Pretrib, when they did not--referring to the Scofield Reference Bible. You don't get Bible doctrine from the footnotes!

The Church has always believed that we have to face antichrists in the present age, and the ultimate Antichrist towards the end of the age. That's why the book of Revelation was written, so that we would be prepared with intestinal fortitude. Stop being escapist, and accept what the Bible says, and not what you suggest it says, or what you assume it means. Take at its word what Paul says in 2 Thes 2, that Christ will *not* come back for his Church until Antichrist is destroyed. This will take place when Christ comes again on the last day of this age, to take his Church to himself, and to establish God's Kingdom on the earth.

When will "us guys" see things your way? I will *never* see things Pretrib for the simple reason that the Bible doesn't teach it. Only Pretrib teachers teach it. Many of them are otherwise respectable. But they are not respectable for teaching this, nor are you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

While it is true that the Israelites escaped the 10 plagues, Noah escaped via the Ark and Lot escaped the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, there will be no place to escape to on the earth during the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, for God's wrath will be upon the whole earth, the severity of which you guys are not understanding.

You totally missed my point. The Israelites were IN Egypt and yet escaped all the plagues. Some of which parallel some of God's wrath during the Trib. Second, neither Noah or Lot left the earth, so there is no reason to try to use either of them to illustrate a rapture.

The whole key to a pre trib rapture is a verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

Why that doesn't bother you guys is beyond me. The very essence of the pretrib doctrine is Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven, and yet, there are NO verses showing such an action.

There will be no Ark's to get on and no small cities to flee to.

Right. And just like the Israelites IN Egypt, the FAITHFUL believers will be spared God's wrath (Rev 3:10). They won't be spared the evil that will come from the beast (aka a/c), including martyrdom.

Speaking of Rev 3:10, why do you guys use this verse to support a pretrib rapture when it is clear that only faithful believers will escape?

These plagues of wrath will be unprecedented, not to mention the fact the church is never mentioned during the narrative of God's wrath.

I'm always intrigued by those who use this argument. The Church actually BOOKENDS the entire Book of Revelation.

Ch 1-3 are specifically TO the Church. Note 1:1 - The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants (the Church) what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Now, in the LAST chapter, 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

See any similarity? The ENTIRE book is FOR the Church.

So, there is NO REASON OR NEED to mention the Church in any chapter. The bookends say it all. It is ALL for the Church.

The last time that it is mentioned, is at the end of chapter 3, with chapter 4:1 prophetically representing the gathering of the church.

Oops. You may now apologize for your error.

So I responded stating that all true believers, those who have endured patiently and have overcome, will be gathered by the Lord.[/QUOTE]
So it seems you believe that unfaithful believers will simply miss the rapture then? Do they end up in hell?

I said:
"Every believer will be gathered when Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent to set up His kingdom."

Before I comment on the above let's establish some definitions here.

Gathering of the church = The Lord's descent to the atmosphere to call up the dead and living believers which is imminent
Second Advent = The Lord's physical and visual return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom

While the gathering of the church is imminent, the Lord's return to the earth to end the age is not, as all of the wrath of God must take place first.

Then it appears from this, that you don't believe v.2-3, which very plainly state that neither the Second Advent OR the "gathering to Him" will occur until the Rebellion (Tribulation) and man of lawlessness (antichrist) is revealed.

Thank you for finally admitting when the rapture will occur.

You see, the 2 events noted in v.1 cannot occur until the Trib and beast (a/c) are revealed.

Your are correct, in that the resurrection found in Rev.20:4-5 will take place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

Again, thank you for noticing this believer resurrection. And, btw, there is only 1 believer resurrection according to the Bible. Not a bunch of phased ones as you guys are forced to do.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. One each, if you understand English. Just one for believers and one for unbelievers.

This is further supported by 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The context here is the resurrection of the righteous, which Christ being the FIRST one, called "firstfruits". Then the very clear words;

"THEN, when He comes (Second Advent) those who belong to Him."

If you see a number of phased resurrections here, you are just seeing things. What follows AFTER "firstfruits" is very clear; ALL believers who belong to Him will be resurrected. When He comes. That means every saved person from Adam on.

So, 2 verses that prove that all believers will be resurrected at one time, WHEN He comes.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Post was too long. Here's the second half.

From awe light:

However, it is not the church who is resurrected, but those saints who will have died during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period who were seen under the altar at the opening of the 5th seal and those who will have died during the great tribulation, which is the last 3 1/2 years. The church will have already been resurrected prior to the on-set of God's wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal.

The 2 verses above REFUTE your phased notion of several resurrections. Ain't happening.

I've already shown you the scripture, but you reject it.

You've shown nothing that says what you claim.

So, here it is again. Instead of circumventing it, actually study it:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

* My Father's house equals heaven
* Jesus went to the Father's house to prepare places for us there
* The Lord promised to come back again to get us (Resurrection/Rapture) to take us back to the Father's house, so that believers within the church could be where the Lord is, which would be in the Father's house, which is in heaven.

So, how is it that you say there is no scriptures that say that believers are being taken back to heaven? It's easy to make that claim if you continue to reject them.

Wow. This is tired. Very tired. First, Jesus said all that BEFORE His ascension. And He was speaking to physically alive disciples. Who hadn't died YET. But all of them would. Jesus was confirming to them that they will be with Him when they die. Because He was going to "go there" and "prepare a place for THEM". Jesus wasn't talking to every believer who ever lived. He was talking to 11 men.

So when Jesus said He would "come back", that was fulfilled WHEN He was resurrected and showed Himself to them.

Even if Jesus was referring to His return to earth, all He said was "that you also may be where I am".

This is very similar to what Paul wrote in the most famous rapture verse:
1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Neither passage mentions anything about being resurrected/raptured and then taken to heaven.

That should bother you guys very much.

We also have Rev.19:6-8 showing that the bride/church is already in heaven attending the wedding of the Lamb.

No we don't. The wording clearly shows what is ABOUT TO OCCUR.

v.7-9
7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

v.7 the bolded words don't say what already occurred 7 years prior but what is about to occur. Why even mention that the bride "has made herself ready" in a chapter that ends with Christ coming back at the Second Advent.

v.9 notice the words "who ARE invited". Again, if the wedding supper occurred 7 years prior, this is weird wording for sure.

It should have said "who were invited". Words mean things.

v.8 notice what these believers in heaven are given: "fine linen". For the wedding supper.

And verse 14 shows the bride following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses to engage the beast, the kings and their armies at Armageddon. Revelation 17:14 also shows the "Called, chosen and faithful followers" which will be those who will have previously resurrected and raptured, as being with the Lord as He descends to the earth to end the age.

Well nuts. I was hoping you would have quoted v.14. So I will, to prove my explanation.

14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

These very same words occur in v.8.

iow, all believers in heaven are given fine linen, for the wedding supper, which is about to occur ON EARTH and they accompany Christ in that outfit.

So, you have no excuse. There is only 1 resurrection for saved people. And Rev 20:4 proves that occurs AFTER the Trib when Christ comes back at the Second Advent. Which, btw, is clearly stated in 2 Thess 2:1-3.

John 14:1-3 doesn't support any kind of rapture.
Rev 19 proves that the wedding supper is about to occur, the believers in heaven are given proper attire for the wedding and accompany Christ to earth FOR that wedding.

It makes perfect sense for the wedding supper to occur in Christ' coming kingdom. What better way to kick off His reign!!

He comes back, ends the Trib, binds Satan for 1,000 years, and sets up His kingdom and celebrates all of this at the wedding supper!!

Amen!!

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then please provide a verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

See post #395

I did. It's not there. See posts 398 and 399.