Dan and Ephriam missing

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CharliRenee

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Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
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#1
I know that we talked about it before but I can not find the thread. My memory leaves a bit to be desired. So anyway...Does anyone know why Dan was not included in Revelations 7 among the 12 tribes. I know Dan was guilty of idolatry but Reuben was not counted I thought for defiling His fathers bed. I know Levi was not given land because of the priesthood, so this in Rev 7 clearly diff. Also Ephraim is missing or at least is not mentioned specifically like Manasseh. Thank you for your time and patience.

God Bless you all.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
9,584
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#2
I know that we talked about it before but I can not find the thread. My memory leaves a bit to be desired. So anyway...Does anyone know why Dan was not included in Revelations 7 among the 12 tribes. I know Dan was guilty of idolatry but Reuben was not counted I thought for defiling His fathers bed. I know Levi was not given land because of the priesthood, so this in Rev 7 clearly diff. Also Ephraim is missing or at least is not mentioned specifically like Manasseh. Thank you for your time and patience.

God Bless you all.
Greetings CharliRenee,

First of all, as you know Ephraim and Manasseh were Joseph's son's who were counted as belonging to Jacob - Gen.45:5. As you said, Dan was replaced by Manasseh in the list in Rev.7:1-8 regarding the 144,000. I have heard this teaching before that Dan was omitted because of idolatry and I continue to look for the reason. But I reject that Since the all of the tribes of Israel were guilty of idolatry and not just Dan alone.

Since there is only twelve tribes, Ephraim is not missing, as it was not thirteen tribes but twelve. Also, if you go and look at Ezekiel 48:1, which is a detailed description of the temple that will exist during the millennial period, you will see that Dan is included in the land allotment.
 

CharliRenee

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Nov 4, 2014
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#3
Greetings CharliRenee,

First of all, as you know Ephraim and Manasseh were Joseph's son's who were counted as belonging to Jacob - Gen.45:5. As you said, Dan was replaced by Manasseh in the list in Rev.7:1-8 regarding the 144,000. I have heard this teaching before that Dan was omitted because of idolatry and I continue to look for the reason. But I reject that Since the all of the tribes of Israel were guilty of idolatry and not just Dan alone.

Since there is only twelve tribes, Ephraim is not missing, as it was not thirteen tribes but twelve. Also, if you go and look at Ezekiel 48:1, which is a detailed description of the temple that will exist during the millennial period, you will see that Dan is included in the land allotment.
Thank you, still a wee confused why Ephriam was not included in the 144,000. I know Reuban and Dan were alotted land but not Levi, so I can gather that the 12 of 144,000 are different, that it was not looking at the land allotment. I know we see that Reuben was not counted at one time because of his defiling so again this is diff. I understand that Joseph's sons were counted as Jacob's so why was only one of those two counted? I know it has to be more than just to make it 12, not 13. Bear with me, brother.
 

CharliRenee

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#4
Ephraim was very guilty of adultry, idolatry, as well. So I am starting to see some answers in Hosea.
 

Didymous

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2018
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#6
If you read the meaning of the names in order, you'll see a message. Just a thought.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
4,652
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#9
LOL, while I was away (from CC) typing up the following, somebody beat me to it ^ ha! I'll go ahead a put what I had typed up, here:

Some have pointed out how the order of the names (Rev7:5-8) is unique (not found in this way anywhere else in scripture) and may perhaps form a sentence with a specific meaning or message, similarly to how some suggest this of the list of 10 names in Genesis 5 (though some tend to apply it in ways I don't necessarily think to be quite accurate):

1) Judah G2448 - "praised" ["give thanks" / "confess"]
2) Reuben G4502 - "behold [look], a son!" / "he has looked on me"
3) Gad G1045 - "fortune" / "given good fortune"

4) Asher G768 - "happy one" / "blessed one"
5) Naphtali G3508 - "wrestling" / "my wrestling"
6) Manasseh G3128 - "causing to forget"

7) Simeon G4826 - "to hear / hearing"
8) Levi G3017 - "joined / attached / accompanying"
9) Issachar G2466 - "recompence / reward / purchased"

10) Zebulun G2194 - "to dwell / dwelling"
11) Joseph G2501 - "he increases / to add"
12) Benjamin G958 - "son of [the] right hand"

Someone has put it together as a sentence in the following way:

[quoting] "I will praise the Lord [for] he has looked on me [and] given good fortune. Happy am I. [In] my wrestling, God is making me to forget. [But] God hears me [and is] joined to me. [He has] purchased me [a] dwelling [and] will add to me [the] Son of His right hand." [end quoting]


I see this as somewhat parallel to what we see written in Hosea 5:15-6:3 (regarding Israel [and its parallel passages I've listed before]), where it says, "15 I will go and return to My place, TILL they [Israel] acknowledge their offence, and seek My face: in their affliction they will seek Me early/earnestly. [...] Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: His going forth is prepared as the morning; and He shall come unto us [Israel] as the rain, as the latter [spring] and former [fall] rains unto the earth."
[this is said, in v.2, to be "after two days" and "in the third day"]


I believe the 144,000 are among those [the "wise"] who will be (during the trib years [AFTER our Rapture]) giving out the message of "invitation" TO/FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, Matt24:14/26:13 [the effects of this "invitation" seen in Rev7:9-17, and Matt25:31-34 and context, and Matt22:8-14, and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 and its parallels, Mt13:24,30,39,40,49-50, and Matt8:11 and its parallel, and Daniel 12:12, also about 10 total, or so, "BLESSED" passages (like Rev19:9 distinct from 19:7)]; "the least of these My brethren" being among the "inviters" (who are not the ones BEING judged/separated in the Matt25:31-34 Sheep & goats context)... So those in the trib who heed their [correct] message (and "bless" these bringing said message) will themselves be "blessed" to enter the MK time period (but it is my understanding that they will be doing so at great risk to themselves, to "bless" those bringing this message, at such a time of great deception [the trib years with its man of sin/that Wicked])


BTW, "Dan" means "judge"...and his name [and land-alottment] is included in the later MK-age passages, if I recall.


I tend also to agree with the study that was out there quite a number of years ago (don't know where I'd find it now :D ) that showed how Paul was a "type" of the future 144,000, with himself being "as of one born out of due time" (i.e. much earlier than the rest [see also Gen44:2 :) ]),

...and that they will also come to faith in a similar manner as he did, when "SUDDENLY there shined round about him A LIGHT FROM HEAVEN" (bearing in mind how I believe that "the day of the Lord so cometh [arrives] as a thief IN THE NIGHT" [the "DARK"/"DARKNESS" aspect of the [entire] Day of the Lord time period, at its INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G1500 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"--the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of the man of sin, SEAL #1, at the START of the 7 years/70th Wk, Dan9:27(26), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev4-5, etc, with many MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that follow on from that INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"]
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
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#10
LOL, while I was away (from CC) typing up the following, somebody beat me to it ^ ha! I'll go ahead a put what I had typed up, here:

Some have pointed out how the order of the names (Rev7:5-8) is unique (not found in this way anywhere else in scripture) and may perhaps form a sentence with a specific meaning or message, similarly to how some suggest this of the list of 10 names in Genesis 5 (though some tend to apply it in ways I don't necessarily think to be quite accurate):

1) Judah G2448 - "praised" ["give thanks" / "confess"]
2) Reuben G4502 - "behold [look], a son!" / "he has looked on me"
3) Gad G1045 - "fortune" / "given good fortune"

4) Asher G768 - "happy one" / "blessed one"
5) Naphtali G3508 - "wrestling" / "my wrestling"
6) Manasseh G3128 - "causing to forget"

7) Simeon G4826 - "to hear / hearing"
8) Levi G3017 - "joined / attached / accompanying"
9) Issachar G2466 - "recompence / reward / purchased"

10) Zebulun G2194 - "to dwell / dwelling"
11) Joseph G2501 - "he increases / to add"
12) Benjamin G958 - "son of [the] right hand"

Someone has put it together as a sentence in the following way:

[quoting] "I will praise the Lord [for] he has looked on me [and] given good fortune. Happy am I. [In] my wrestling, God is making me to forget. [But] God hears me [and is] joined to me. [He has] purchased me [a] dwelling [and] will add to me [the] Son of His right hand." [end quoting]


I see this as somewhat parallel to what we see written in Hosea 5:15-6:3 (regarding Israel [and its parallel passages I've listed before]), where it says, "15 I will go and return to My place, TILL they [Israel] acknowledge their offence, and seek My face: in their affliction they will seek Me early/earnestly. [...] Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: His going forth is prepared as the morning; and He shall come unto us [Israel] as the rain, as the latter [spring] and former [fall] rains unto the earth."
[this is said, in v.2, to be "after two days" and "in the third day"]


I believe the 144,000 are among those [the "wise"] who will be (during the trib years [AFTER our Rapture]) giving out the message of "invitation" TO/FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, Matt24:14/26:13 [the effects of this "invitation" seen in Rev7:9-17, and Matt25:31-34 and context, and Matt22:8-14, and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 and its parallels, Mt13:24,30,39,40,49-50, and Matt8:11 and its parallel, and Daniel 12:12, also about 10 total, or so, "BLESSED" passages (like Rev19:9 distinct from 19:7)]; "the least of these My brethren" being among the "inviters" (who are not the ones BEING judged/separated in the Matt25:31-34 Sheep & goats context)... So those in the trib who heed their [correct] message (and "bless" these bringing said message) will themselves be "blessed" to enter the MK time period (but it is my understanding that they will be doing so at great risk to themselves, to "bless" those bringing this message, at such a time of great deception [the trib years with its man of sin/that Wicked])


BTW, "Dan" means "judge"...and his name [and land-alottment] is included in the later MK-age passages, if I recall.


I tend also to agree with the study that was out there quite a number of years ago (don't know where I'd find it now :D ) that showed how Paul was a "type" of the future 144,000, with himself being "as of one born out of due time" (i.e. much earlier than the rest [see also Gen44:2 :) ]),

...and that they will also come to faith in a similar manner as he did, when "SUDDENLY there shined round about him A LIGHT FROM HEAVEN" (bearing in mind how I believe that "the day of the Lord so cometh [arrives] as a thief IN THE NIGHT" [the "DARK"/"DARKNESS" aspect of the [entire] Day of the Lord time period, at its INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G1500 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"--the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of the man of sin, SEAL #1, at the START of the 7 years/70th Wk, Dan9:27(26), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev4-5, etc, with many MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that follow on from that INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"]
Very nice, thanks for the time given. Not sure how I see Paul being a type of the 144,000, but am intrigued to look into it.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,437
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#12
Greetings CharliRenee,

First of all, as you know Ephraim and Manasseh were Joseph's son's who were counted as belonging to Jacob - Gen.45:5. As you said, Dan was replaced by Manasseh in the list in Rev.7:1-8 regarding the 144,000. I have heard this teaching before that Dan was omitted because of idolatry and I continue to look for the reason. But I reject that Since the all of the tribes of Israel were guilty of idolatry and not just Dan alone.

Since there is only twelve tribes, Ephraim is not missing, as it was not thirteen tribes but twelve. Also, if you go and look at Ezekiel 48:1, which is a detailed description of the temple that will exist during the millennial period, you will see that Dan is included in the land allotment.
Actually the 10 northern tribes were guilty of pure Idolatry..the two southern Kingdoms were guilty of spiritual adultery <---Mixing God with idols and there was a difference.....
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
872
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63
#13
Joseph receives a double portion (Gen 48:21). Joseph's two sons, Manasseh & Ephraim (often called the "two half-tribes of Joseph") together they formed the House of Joseph. So, when you read Manasseh it's includes Ephraim.

The tribe of Dan was the 1st tribe of Israel to plunge into pagan IDOLATRY! Danites failed to drive out their Philistine and Canaanite neighbors. As a result, they migrated to another land, in the northernmost limits of Canaan. It's true other Tribes fell into idolatry, but, only the Tribe of Dan left the promised land. My Opinion Only
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
9,584
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#14
Thank you, still a wee confused why Ephriam was not included in the 144,000. I know Reuban and Dan were alotted land but not Levi, so I can gather that the 12 of 144,000 are different, that it was not looking at the land allotment. I know we see that Reuben was not counted at one time because of his defiling so again this is diff. I understand that Joseph's sons were counted as Jacob's so why was only one of those two counted? I know it has to be more than just to make it 12, not 13. Bear with me, brother.
Well, regarding the tribes, their number is and has always been twelve. Thirteen would throw God's use of numbers off. These 144,000 will be the first fruits who come out of the woman, unbelieving Israel, i.e. gives birth to, who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah during that last seven years, which is the tribulation period.

I believe that the Male Child, that the woman/Israel gives birth to, is a collective name representing the 144,000.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,642
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#15
It seems to me the Twelve Tribes are inferred in total for they are on the gates of New jERUSAQLEM their names that is.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,424
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#16
Also Ephraim is missing or at least is not mentioned specifically like Manasseh.
In Revelation 7 "Joseph" is substituted for "Ephraim" but in Ezekiel 48, Ephraim and Manasseh are both included.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
28,261
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#18
Ephraim was very guilty of adultry, idolatry, as well. So I am starting to see some answers in Hosea.
Ephraim, is sometimes used to represent all of the northern kingdom, just like Judah is sometimes used to represent all of the southern kingdom. i have always read Hosea as though he is speaking of Ephraim this way, not just the single tribe itself..?

in Revelation the list of tribes is not birth order, not by inheritance, not like any of the other places the tribes are listed. i, too, think it is given this way as a clue that it is meant to be symbolic - it's listed in an 'odd' way, with sons of the servant-women before the sons of the wives, and Judah - out of whom Jesus was descended - first. it is more than just a list of the names of the tribes, it is a particular grouping and order of them.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,776
1,502
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#19
I know that we talked about it before but I can not find the thread. My memory leaves a bit to be desired. So anyway...Does anyone know why Dan was not included in Revelations 7 among the 12 tribes. I know Dan was guilty of idolatry but Reuben was not counted I thought for defiling His fathers bed. I know Levi was not given land because of the priesthood, so this in Rev 7 clearly diff. Also Ephraim is missing or at least is not mentioned specifically like Manasseh. Thank you for your time and patience.

God Bless you all.
Like all parbles The spiritual understanding is hid. In this case it is hid in the phrase fall backward , went backward any where but forward

God uses twelve to represent his authority in the matter. Twelve of thirteen tribes are used to describe the wife of Christ, the church .Old testament saint and new alike are used to represent her. Gates we enter into as old testemtment saints and walls representing by new testament saints together they make up city of Christ prepared as His eternal bride.

Eliminating the tribe of Dan to be used to represent an evil .He is show as falling backward. A common phrase used to represent those who have not become redeemed.

Judas the new testament example used to represent walls. He is also a marked man like Dan used to represent no blessing form God . using the same phrase backward or went backward to indicate no blessing

Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

And in respect to the new testament saint used to represent walls of the city coming down prepared as the chaste virgin bride of Christ

John 18:5-7 King James Version (KJV) They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
 

CharliRenee

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Nov 4, 2014
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#20
I am encouraged knowing that there is still so much to learn. I appreciate all the responses, tyou. I can't really respond because I still need more understanding but I will be looking to understand the gates and the walls.

Find this to be particularly interesting as well...

it's listed in an 'odd' way, with sons of the servant-women before the sons of the wives, and Judah - out of whom Jesus was descended - first. it is more than just a list of the names of the tribes, it is a particular grouping and order of them.

I am working through the old testament, slowly but surely, through the grace of God. Ezekial should be quite eye opening, so thanks again brothers, much appreciated.