Daniel is out of chronological order.

zone · Mar 24, 2013

Who Was Jesus?
The Jewish View of Jesus

Stated simply, the Jewish view of Jesus of Nazareth is that he was an ordinary Jewish man and preacher living during the Roman occupation of the Holy Land in the first century C.E. The Romans executed him - and also executed many other nationalistic and religious Jews - for speaking out against Roman authority and abuses.

Was Jesus the Messiah According to Jewish Beliefs?

After the death of Jesus, his followers - at the time a small sect of former Jews known as the Nazarenes - claimed he was the Messiah prophesied in Jewish texts and that he would soon return to fulfill the acts required of the Messiah. The majority of contemporary Jews rejected this belief and Judaism as a whole continues to do so today. Eventually, Jesus became the focal point of a small Jewish religious movement that would evolve into the Christian faith.

Jews do not believe that Jesus was divine, the Son of God, or the Messiah prophesied in Jewish scriptures. He is seen as a "false messiah," meaning someone who claimed (or whose followers claimed for him) the mantle of the Messiah but who ultimately did not meet the requirements laid out in Jewish beliefs.

According to Jewish scripture and belief, the true Messiah (pronounced "moshiach" in Hebrew) must meet the following requirements. He must:

Be an observant Jewish man descended from the house of King David
Be an ordinary human being (as opposed to the Son of God)
Bring peace to the world
Gather all Jews back into Israel
Rebuild the ancient Temple in Jerusalem
Unite humanity in the worship of the Jewish God and Torah observance

Because Jesus did not meet these requirements, from the Jewish perspective he was not the Messiah.

Jesus - The Jewish View of Jesus < click

cfultz3 · Mar 24, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

When their Savior comes in the Eastern gate to save them from the desires of all the nations around about, will they still be worshiping a jehovah or the Jehovah they pierced who said He would come and Deliver them? Will they not then see their Son? The same One we know as God Himself.

I understand what you are saying. Jehovah came once as their Messiah and they refused. But a time will come when they too will see the One they have pierced.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 24, 2013

doulos said:

You mean the one the jews reject?

who was that Son? It was the jehovah of Isreal.

Isaiah 48: 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 '"All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. 16 Come ye near unto me, Hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I, and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Is 63:7-10a : I will mention the loving kindness of the Lord and the praises of the Lord, according to all the Lord has bestowed upon us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, Which he has bestowed upon them according to his mercies. For he said..Surely they are my people, children who will not lie, so he became their SAVIOR. in all their affliction he was afflicted. and the angel of his presence saved them. in his love and his pity he redeemed them. and he bore them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit.

Both of these speak of or are spoken of by Jesus, the son of man/son of God

eternally-gratefull · Mar 24, 2013

cfultz3 said:

Yes this is what I am saying.. But when this will happen, we do not know.. Te jews alive In Isreal today may be them, they may not be.. Only God knows.

but until they do this, they are worshiping a false God made up of their own imaginations, and not worshiping Jehovah of the OT

cfultz3 · Mar 24, 2013

zone said:

Yet, a time will come when they will look upon the One they have pierced.

By the blindness God has placed upon them, these reasonings can be said to be spoken by such blindness.

cfultz3 · Mar 24, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

Could it be said that they are worshiping Jehovah in an obsolete manner, instead of saying that they are worshipping a false jehovah?

zone · Mar 24, 2013

cfultz3 said:

Zechariah 12:10
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

John 19
Jesus’ Side Is Pierced
31Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. 36For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.” 37And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”

zone · Mar 24, 2013

cfultz3 said:

can you people read? at all?
do you?

Zechariah 12:10
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

John 19
Jesus’ Side Is Pierced
31Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. 36For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.” 37And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”

eternally-gratefull · Mar 24, 2013

cfultz3 said:

no, because they are still in sin and worshiping their idols (the law) and not the God who came to save them..

they have made the law their God.. Just like the pharisees did in their day. (lev 26 is the guide)

Remember, their claim of abraham. Jesus said before abraham was, He is.. The God arbraham worshiped was talking to them in human form. And they rejected him. If jesus came today as he did back then, they would still reject him.

cfultz3 · Mar 24, 2013

zone said:

Zechariah 12:10
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

John 19
Jesus’ Side Is Pierced
31Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. 36For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.” 37And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”

Sorry Zone, not understanding your point.

peterT · Mar 24, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

They were Therapon words. And I was asking him a question with his own words.

""So the two witnesses are two churches So a Christian church and a non-Christian church that’s compiled of unbelieving Jews?""

My thought on the matter is, I think the same as yours on the matter

cfultz3 · Mar 24, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

I gotcha now, the Pharisees and Seduces with their additional man-made laws. I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, etc...

Thanks....

eternally-gratefull · Mar 24, 2013

peterT said:

Gotcha. Forgive me for misquoting and misunderstanding you.

zone · Mar 24, 2013

cfultz3 said:

yes i know.

PROPHECY:

Zechariah 12:10
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

FULFILLMENT:

John 19
Jesus’ Side Is Pierced
31Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. 36For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.” 37And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

And they also which pierced him - When he died; that is, they who pierced his hands, his feet, and his side. There is probably an allusion here to Zechariah 12:10; "They shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn." The language here is so general that it may refer to any act of looking upon the pierced Saviour, and might be applied to those who would see him on the cross and to their compunctious visitings then; or to their subsequent reflections, as they might look by faith on him whom they had crucified; or to the feeling of any sinners who should reflect that their sins had been the cause of the death of the Lord Jesus; or it might be applied, as it is here, more specifically to the feelings which his murderers will have when they shall see him coming in his glory.

All sinners who have pierced his heart by their crimes will then behold him and will mourn over their treatment of him; they, in a special manner, who imbrued their hands in his blood will then remember their crime and be overwhelmed with alarm. The design of what is here said seems to be, to show that the coming of the Saviour will be an event of great interest to all mankind. None can be indifferent to it, for all will see him. His friends will hail his advent (compare Revelation 22:20), but all who were engaged in putting him to death, and all who in any manner have pierced his heart by sin and ingratitude, unless they shall have repented, will have occasion of bitter lamentation when he shall come.

There are none who have a more fearful doom to anticipate than the murderers of the Son of God, including those who actually put him to death, and those who would have engaged in such an act had they been present, and those who, by their conduct, have done all they could to pierce and wound him by their ingratitude.
Barnes

sound like a happy reunion to you?
wherever did you get such an idea?

doulos · Mar 24, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
I’ll believe what this verse says. if you don’t want to believe it was given to the gentiles, don’t.

It is a historical fact that Israel now controls Jerusalem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

Eze 36:19 - 26 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh

Hmmm Scripture says they are restored to their land while in unbelief and then cleansed. I think I’ll believe that, what you choose to believe is your choice..

Scripture tells us 2 candlesticks are churches, that makes 2 groups of believers not 2 individuals. The olive trees identify them as the Jew and Gentile believers. Not two individuals but two groups. If you want to toss out the definitions the word of God provides so you can stand by your doctrine go ahaed, as for me I’ll accept the definitions Scripture provides.

Always been that way, I didn’t say it wasn’t. Believers always have and always will be saved by being born again regardless of our position on the timeline.
1Co 10:1- 4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ

cfultz3 · Mar 24, 2013

zone said:

yes i know.

PROPHECY:

Zechariah 12:10
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

FULFILLMENT:

John 19
Jesus’ Side Is Pierced
31Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. 36For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.” 37And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

And they also which pierced him - When he died; that is, they who pierced his hands, his feet, and his side. There is probably an allusion here to Zechariah 12:10; "They shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn." The language here is so general that it may refer to any act of looking upon the pierced Saviour, and might be applied to those who would see him on the cross and to their compunctious visitings then; or to their subsequent reflections, as they might look by faith on him whom they had crucified; or to the feeling of any sinners who should reflect that their sins had been the cause of the death of the Lord Jesus; or it might be applied, as it is here, more specifically to the feelings which his murderers will have when they shall see him coming in his glory.

All sinners who have pierced his heart by their crimes will then behold him and will mourn over their treatment of him; they, in a special manner, who imbrued their hands in his blood will then remember their crime and be overwhelmed with alarm. The design of what is here said seems to be, to show that the coming of the Saviour will be an event of great interest to all mankind. None can be indifferent to it, for all will see him. His friends will hail his advent (compare Revelation 22:20), but all who were engaged in putting him to death, and all who in any manner have pierced his heart by sin and ingratitude, unless they shall have repented, will have occasion of bitter lamentation when he shall come.

There are none who have a more fearful doom to anticipate than the murderers of the Son of God, including those who actually put him to death, and those who would have engaged in such an act had they been present, and those who, by their conduct, have done all they could to pierce and wound him by their ingratitude.
Barnes

sound like a happy reunion to you?
wherever did you get such an idea?

I tend to connect that piercing to the Jews having Him put to death and who said, 'let His blood be upon us'. If it was not for Him coming again to save the Jews from the surrounding enemies, then I would certainly lean towards what you said. I can see where you are coming from also.

doulos · Mar 24, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

I know, didn't I say regardless of whether one is an Old Covenant believer like Abraham and Moses or a New Testamant saint like you and I we all must be born again? Don't the verses 1Cor10:1-4 demonstrate that regardless of our position on the timeline we are all saved by faith in Christ?

Well if you think you are capable of judging others that's up to you. As for me I'll let God do the judging, after all I have no idea which Jews were or were not born again.

doulos · Mar 24, 2013

zone said:

Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise.

Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants.

One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.

30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.”

31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

purleeze I bet you are excellent at the game of twister. Oh well at least you didn't resort to wiki theology this time.

doulos · Mar 24, 2013

zone said:

Rom 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Jews who have not been given the spirit of slumber until the fulness of the gentiles comes in must accept Jesus to be born again just like you and I. Those that have been given the spirit of slumber until the fulness of the Gentiles can not believe what they are not allowed to see. But just because they are not allowed to see does not mean they can't come to know Christ the same way Abraham and Moses did.

zone · Mar 24, 2013

doulos said:

i note you used wiki for your monster 1948 gap theory

i'll use wiki over Therapon's delusional theology and website.

what is there to twist? you said there are TWO of everything.
are there TWO Covenants?

tell me....does God have Two Covenants He is honoring right now?

when was Galatians written? 1967? 2001?
is it future to us yet?

is it about Muslims (Hagar)?

Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise.

Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants.

One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.

30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.”

31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

does it say Ishmael won't inherit?
who won't inherit?
what does it say?

does it say people who adhere to the Old Covenant, and strive for Old Jerusalem will inherit eternal life?
Old Testament Wineskins will inherit under some arrangement other than the New Covenant (New Wine)?
is that what it says?

where's the part the Jewish Apostle Paul should have mentioned the provision you and Ellis cooked up?

where is it?

where's the OLD SKINS PRESERVED WITHOUT NEW WINE?

show me in Galatians....how does this book fit your theory?

Daniel is out of chronological order.

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