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Hi Therapon
I can only speak honestly(which I am doing)
It seems to me that your most vociferous detractors are the people who seem eager to condemn others, and do so at times because they stand on man made tradition rather than the plain words of the bible. They in effect go around telling people they will be condemned for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth. You do not do that, in fact you do not seem eager to condemn anyone, let alone revel in doing so.
Also, you are spot on I believe. A Chriastian should not need to rely on Wikki to learn, and you are also spot on concerning those who have to rely on scholars and theologians to learn.
On top of this, you have behaved admirably when you have been hounded on this website, and your views have at times been twisted, distorted and lied about, far more admi
rably than I ever have
As for the reasons given I find I can have no confidence in those I have described for truth, I find myself far more eager to now read of your views on subjects. I am glad you remain on this website
BTW
The ignore button is a wonderful device indeed, it can make you feel born again when it is used
I can only speak honestly(which I am doing)
It seems to me that your most vociferous detractors are the people who seem eager to condemn others, and do so at times because they stand on man made tradition rather than the plain words of the bible. They in effect go around telling people they will be condemned for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth. You do not do that, in fact you do not seem eager to condemn anyone, let alone revel in doing so.
Also, you are spot on I believe. A Chriastian should not need to rely on Wikki to learn, and you are also spot on concerning those who have to rely on scholars and theologians to learn.
On top of this, you have behaved admirably when you have been hounded on this website, and your views have at times been twisted, distorted and lied about, far more admi
rably than I ever have
As for the reasons given I find I can have no confidence in those I have described for truth, I find myself far more eager to now read of your views on subjects. I am glad you remain on this website
BTW
The ignore button is a wonderful device indeed, it can make you feel born again when it is used
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In the plain words of Jesus
John 5
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. [SUP]32 [/SUP]There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]“You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. [SUP]34 [/SUP]Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved.[SUP]35 [/SUP]John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. [SUP]37 [/SUP]And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, [SUP]38 [/SUP]nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. [SUP]39 [/SUP]You study[SUP][c][/SUP] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, [SUP]40 [/SUP]yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]“I do not accept glory from human beings, [SUP]42 [/SUP]but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. [SUP]43 [/SUP]I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. [SUP]44 [/SUP]How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God[SUP][d][/SUP]?
[SUP]45[/SUP]“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. [SUP]46 [/SUP]If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. [SUP]47 [/SUP]But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
Luke 16
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
[SUP]30 [/SUP]“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
How do you get around these verses? Jesus is very clear that if they believe Moses and the prophets they will in Him,but if they do NOT believe or listen to Moses they will not believe in Him and not only that their very accuse is Moses himself. How do you reconcile what Jesus said with what Therapon is saying? Those are Jesus words.
John 5
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. [SUP]32 [/SUP]There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]“You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. [SUP]34 [/SUP]Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved.[SUP]35 [/SUP]John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. [SUP]37 [/SUP]And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, [SUP]38 [/SUP]nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. [SUP]39 [/SUP]You study[SUP][c][/SUP] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, [SUP]40 [/SUP]yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]“I do not accept glory from human beings, [SUP]42 [/SUP]but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. [SUP]43 [/SUP]I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. [SUP]44 [/SUP]How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God[SUP][d][/SUP]?
[SUP]45[/SUP]“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. [SUP]46 [/SUP]If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. [SUP]47 [/SUP]But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
Luke 16
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
[SUP]30 [/SUP]“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
How do you get around these verses? Jesus is very clear that if they believe Moses and the prophets they will in Him,but if they do NOT believe or listen to Moses they will not believe in Him and not only that their very accuse is Moses himself. How do you reconcile what Jesus said with what Therapon is saying? Those are Jesus words.
I am only going to respond this once. If people won't accept some of the words of Jesus, when they quote other of his words it must carry littlke weight. You can't pick and choose what you choose to accept and refuse to accept of Chriast's plain words.
I have not said I agree with everything Therapon writes, but I know I would far prefer to read the writing of someone who does not appear eager to condemn others, does not put the traditions of men before the bible and does not in effect continually state a person will condemned on the day of judgement for standing on the plain words of Chriost when he walked this earth. Such a persons posts I will always take more seriously than those others I have jiust described
He is also spot on in regard to a Christian should not need to rely on Wikki to learn, but the bible, and he is IMHO also spot on as to the result of relying on scholars and theologians to learn, and he has behaved admirably in the face of the harrassment he has recieved from a few, and the lies and distortions made as to some of what he believes
I have not said I agree with everything Therapon writes, but I know I would far prefer to read the writing of someone who does not appear eager to condemn others, does not put the traditions of men before the bible and does not in effect continually state a person will condemned on the day of judgement for standing on the plain words of Chriost when he walked this earth. Such a persons posts I will always take more seriously than those others I have jiust described
He is also spot on in regard to a Christian should not need to rely on Wikki to learn, but the bible, and he is IMHO also spot on as to the result of relying on scholars and theologians to learn, and he has behaved admirably in the face of the harrassment he has recieved from a few, and the lies and distortions made as to some of what he believes
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But he leaves passages like this out
Romans 9
[SUP]6 [/SUP]It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[SUP][b]8 [/SUP]In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.[SUP]9 [/SUP]For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[SUP][c]
And again in Jesus own words
John 8
[SUP]31 [/SUP]To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
[SUP]33 [/SUP]They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. [SUP]36 [/SUP]So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [SUP]37 [/SUP]I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word.[SUP]38 [/SUP]I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.[SUP][b][/SUP]”
[SUP]39 [/SUP]“Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[SUP][c][/SUP] do what Abraham did. [SUP]40 [/SUP]As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. [SUP]41 [/SUP]You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
[SUP]42[/SUP]Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.[SUP]43 [/SUP]Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. [SUP]44 [/SUP]You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. [SUP]45 [/SUP]Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! [SUP]46 [/SUP]Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? [SUP]47 [/SUP]Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
Within the context of what is being said while all Israel will be saved,Jesus has already limited it to whom Israel truly is. It is not Israel by the flesh,because not all that are born by flesh through Abraham is of Abraham. You can not get around that no matter how hard one wants to try.[/SUP]
T
Sir, you embarrass me. If I look back on my life, all I see is failure. I see the things I should have said or done, but didn't, or those things I shouldn't have said or done, but did. A prime example of the Romans 7 man who is terribly glad there's a Romans 8. Forty years ago I could have challenged Paul for that "chief of sinners" spot, but the Lord changed my life in one night. However, if anyone tells you, Skolfield did this or that, believe them, it's probably true.
As far as being hounded is concerned, I've been attacked for 35 years, not just on eschatology, but for standing on Scripture. We've sent thousands of books around the world and warn everyone who want to teach from them that they would be attacked for their efforts. So it has turned out to be. The world abounds with false doctrines and false teachers and they seem to be getting richer and more popular. Not so with us, so we just might be teaching the truth.
Thanks again for your kindness. Oh yes, and that ignore button. <grinning from ear to ear> That little jewel has given me a new lease on life.
Pax Christi, brother,
Ellis Skolfield
As far as being hounded is concerned, I've been attacked for 35 years, not just on eschatology, but for standing on Scripture. We've sent thousands of books around the world and warn everyone who want to teach from them that they would be attacked for their efforts. So it has turned out to be. The world abounds with false doctrines and false teachers and they seem to be getting richer and more popular. Not so with us, so we just might be teaching the truth.
Thanks again for your kindness. Oh yes, and that ignore button. <grinning from ear to ear> That little jewel has given me a new lease on life.
Pax Christi, brother,
Ellis Skolfield
E
I believe it too. Just not when you claim it happens.. Isreal has been trampled by Gentiles since 70 ad.. in fact, to be hones, it has since Babylon first took it over, since that time it has been ruled, or influenced by gentiles, even up to this day.
Again. I will take the word of someone who lives there. and not the word of some encyclopedia.. which is known to have errors.
Isreal gained control. but they did not keep it.. Huge difference.
lol.. ok. now we are taking a different approach.. There is a huge differecne between being allowed to go back in. And controlling it all and living in peace.. which is when the prophesy will be fulfilled. And just the begining of birth pangs, don;t ya think?
Um, You are a candlestick. The candlestick has many meanings. the church as a whole. The local church in an area, or the induviduals of the church. We are told to be lights. how do we let our light shine? by letting God light our candlestick, and not letting th elight go out in our lives.
A church does not lie dead in the street for the world to see.. You can't just take something and force your meaning to it..
Again. I will take the word of someone who lives there. and not the word of some encyclopedia.. which is known to have errors.
Isreal gained control. but they did not keep it.. Huge difference.
lol.. ok. now we are taking a different approach.. There is a huge differecne between being allowed to go back in. And controlling it all and living in peace.. which is when the prophesy will be fulfilled. And just the begining of birth pangs, don;t ya think?
Um, You are a candlestick. The candlestick has many meanings. the church as a whole. The local church in an area, or the induviduals of the church. We are told to be lights. how do we let our light shine? by letting God light our candlestick, and not letting th elight go out in our lives.
A church does not lie dead in the street for the world to see.. You can't just take something and force your meaning to it..
let's see if i can follow the false doctrine.so....
- the unbelieving jew is cut out of the good olive tree...and what happens to that branch?
- is it carried over to the wild, not good tree - or some other holding area tree....and grafted in with gentile sinners/unbelievers...until the natural branch continues not in unbelief?
- then he cuts the natural branch out of the wild tree (where it had to go - since there are only two trees - otherwise it would be dead wood, good only for burning)
- he carries it back over to the good tree, and grafts it back in again?
- why does he cut gentile believers out of their own tree if they are believers, and their tree is a good witness, growing believers?
- if the gentile tree is a good tree, and He needs two trees, why does he do all that grafting back and forth?
~
alternatively:
there is ONE TREE.
the good New Covenant Olive Tree.
jewish branches which remain bear fruit.
gentile branches which are grafted in bear fruit.
all cut off branches from the good tree are dead wood.
all branches from the gentile tree will remain there, never grafted in to the good tree. ever. unless they are saved.
you guys have taken the simple agricultural illustration of God the Gardener, pruner and dresser and Christ as the Source of life and fruit and completely destroyed it, overworked it, and used it for your own purposes.
~
the Entire message of scripture is it was The Eternal Purpose of God to take for Himself out of ALL people all kindred, tongues and nations (including jews) ONE PEOPLE.
this (not) new false religion of distinction between jew and gentile is antichrist in every way.
believing jews are NOT for it.
undoing what Jesus did....reversing it all....and you don't seem to care.
all His Work...His purpose to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace....overthrown by you.
Ephesians 2:15
by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
Romans 3:22
This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile.
the great irony of all this, is that no jews who have truly been brought to Christ ever try to make this distinction...ever.
this is coming from outside....but a little leaven leavens the whole lot.
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tell me who is a jew, doulos
were you born a jew?
how do you know you are not jewish?
if you were born jewish (and didn't know it), did it help you at all in salvation?
if you were born gentile (and didn't know it, as most jews are), did it help you in salvation?
how did anyone come to salvation?
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
is there anything at all aside from the Gospel that is the power of God unto salvation?
does the Gospel unto salvation include the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth?
Mark 8:38
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."
does Jesus say here it's okay to be ashamed of Him and His words?
did he say He saved some by not letting them know Him and His words?
the flesh profits something - i need you to tell me what it is.
do you know what makes one a jew?
do you have any clue at all?
is it circumcision?
muslims are circumcised also.
is it attending Torah classes?
observing sabbath?
living in Israel?
descent through the matrilineal line?
or patrilineal?
which is Biblical?
mom was jewish?
grandpda was?
what made grandpa jewish?
can a gentile convert to Judaism and become jewish? yes. he can, according to Judaism.
does that gentile convert become a flesh descendant of Jacob?
does he get cut out from the gentile tree, grafted into the jewish tree, which is an unbeliving jewish tree, adhering to judaism and not christianity....then later when he converts to christianity he is cut from the unbelieving jewish tree and grafted into the actual good tree?
that makes THREE Trees.
or does he never have to come to the knowledge of Christ, since he left Taoism and entered Judaism?
he's saved?
~
i wonder why you're not afraid of God for what you are doing.
i wonder how anyone can so easily help others deny the very Lord that bought them.
were you born a jew?
how do you know you are not jewish?
if you were born jewish (and didn't know it), did it help you at all in salvation?
if you were born gentile (and didn't know it, as most jews are), did it help you in salvation?
how did anyone come to salvation?
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
is there anything at all aside from the Gospel that is the power of God unto salvation?
does the Gospel unto salvation include the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth?
Mark 8:38
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."
does Jesus say here it's okay to be ashamed of Him and His words?
did he say He saved some by not letting them know Him and His words?
the flesh profits something - i need you to tell me what it is.
do you know what makes one a jew?
do you have any clue at all?
is it circumcision?
muslims are circumcised also.
is it attending Torah classes?
observing sabbath?
living in Israel?
descent through the matrilineal line?
or patrilineal?
which is Biblical?
mom was jewish?
grandpda was?
what made grandpa jewish?
can a gentile convert to Judaism and become jewish? yes. he can, according to Judaism.
does that gentile convert become a flesh descendant of Jacob?
does he get cut out from the gentile tree, grafted into the jewish tree, which is an unbeliving jewish tree, adhering to judaism and not christianity....then later when he converts to christianity he is cut from the unbelieving jewish tree and grafted into the actual good tree?
that makes THREE Trees.
or does he never have to come to the knowledge of Christ, since he left Taoism and entered Judaism?
he's saved?
~
i wonder why you're not afraid of God for what you are doing.
i wonder how anyone can so easily help others deny the very Lord that bought them.
Galatians is the death-knell for all Dual Covenaters, and those who would rebuild what Jesus tore down.
they never use it, and they will not respond to it.
Galatians 2
Paul Opposes Peter
11But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
Justified by Faith
15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
what on earth was the Israelite Paul doing rebuking the Israelite Peter?
did Paul who penned the infamous merciful blinding verse in Romans forget there were TWO TREES?
shouldn't he have praised Peter, reminding him to stay in the JEWISH WITNESS TREE?
they never use it, and they will not respond to it.
Galatians 2
Paul Opposes Peter
11But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
Justified by Faith
15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
what on earth was the Israelite Paul doing rebuking the Israelite Peter?
did Paul who penned the infamous merciful blinding verse in Romans forget there were TWO TREES?
shouldn't he have praised Peter, reminding him to stay in the JEWISH WITNESS TREE?
Romans 9
1I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.
what?
what's wrong with the Benjamite Paul, the Hebrew of Hebrews?
doesn't he know his kinsmen according to the flesh are safe in the Good Tree already?
why would he wish he himself were cut off?
what is he talking about?
is he desiring to be cut off from the good tree and grafted into the gentile tree?
or cut off and burned in the fire?
why?
why would he wish that for his kinsman's sake?
explain it to me dolous or ellis.
is Paul confused?
or are you deceived and deceiving?
there's only one right answer.
1I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.
what?
what's wrong with the Benjamite Paul, the Hebrew of Hebrews?
doesn't he know his kinsmen according to the flesh are safe in the Good Tree already?
why would he wish he himself were cut off?
what is he talking about?
is he desiring to be cut off from the good tree and grafted into the gentile tree?
or cut off and burned in the fire?
why?
why would he wish that for his kinsman's sake?
explain it to me dolous or ellis.
is Paul confused?
or are you deceived and deceiving?
there's only one right answer.
hmmm.....it seems Paul is becoming a problem.
look what he preaches here...A SERMON.
maybe we should read it!
look who he is preaching to, and what he says.
why doesn't he remember about the Good Tree Old Testament Wineskin Jews who don't have to have New Wine poured into them?
has he lost his mind?
Acts 13
Paul and Barnabas at Antioch in Pisidia
13Now Paul and his companions set sail from Paphos and came to Perga in Pamphylia. And John left them and returned to Jerusalem, 14but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down. 15After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have any word of encouragement for the people, say it.” 16So Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said:
“Men of Israel and you who fear God, listen. 17The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with uplifted arm he led them out of it. 18And for about forty years he put up withb them in the wilderness. 19And after destroying seven nations in the land of Canaan, he gave them their land as an inheritance. 20All this took about 450 years. And after that he gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. 21Then they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years. 22And when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king, of whom he testified and said, ‘I have found in David the son of Jesse a man after my heart, who will do all my will.’ 23Of this man’s offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised. 24Before his coming, John had proclaimed a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25And as John was finishing his course, he said, ‘What do you suppose that I am? I am not he. No, but behold, after me one is coming, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.’
26“Brothers, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to us has been sent the message of this salvation. 27For those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers, because they did not recognize him nor understand the utterances of the prophets, which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. 28And though they found in him no guilt worthy of death, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29And when they had carried out all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. 30But God raised him from the dead, 31and for many days he appeared to those who had come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people. 32And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, 33this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,
“‘You are my Son,
today I have begotten you.’
34And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way,
“‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’
35Therefore he says also in another psalm,
“‘You will not let your Holy One see corruption.’
36For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep and was laid with his fathers and saw corruption, 37but he whom God raised up did not see corruption. 38Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39and by him everyone who believes is freedc from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. 40Beware, therefore, lest what is said in the Prophets should come about:
41 “‘Look, you scoffers,
be astounded and perish;
for I am doing a work in your days,
a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.’”
42As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath. 43And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, urged them to continue in the grace of God.
44The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. 46And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,
“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. 49And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region. 50But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51But they shook off the dust from their feet against them and went to Iconium. 52And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
look what he preaches here...A SERMON.
maybe we should read it!
look who he is preaching to, and what he says.
why doesn't he remember about the Good Tree Old Testament Wineskin Jews who don't have to have New Wine poured into them?
has he lost his mind?
Acts 13
Paul and Barnabas at Antioch in Pisidia
13Now Paul and his companions set sail from Paphos and came to Perga in Pamphylia. And John left them and returned to Jerusalem, 14but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down. 15After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have any word of encouragement for the people, say it.” 16So Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said:
“Men of Israel and you who fear God, listen. 17The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with uplifted arm he led them out of it. 18And for about forty years he put up withb them in the wilderness. 19And after destroying seven nations in the land of Canaan, he gave them their land as an inheritance. 20All this took about 450 years. And after that he gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. 21Then they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years. 22And when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king, of whom he testified and said, ‘I have found in David the son of Jesse a man after my heart, who will do all my will.’ 23Of this man’s offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised. 24Before his coming, John had proclaimed a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25And as John was finishing his course, he said, ‘What do you suppose that I am? I am not he. No, but behold, after me one is coming, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.’
26“Brothers, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to us has been sent the message of this salvation. 27For those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers, because they did not recognize him nor understand the utterances of the prophets, which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. 28And though they found in him no guilt worthy of death, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29And when they had carried out all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. 30But God raised him from the dead, 31and for many days he appeared to those who had come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people. 32And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, 33this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,
“‘You are my Son,
today I have begotten you.’
34And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way,
“‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’
35Therefore he says also in another psalm,
“‘You will not let your Holy One see corruption.’
36For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep and was laid with his fathers and saw corruption, 37but he whom God raised up did not see corruption. 38Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39and by him everyone who believes is freedc from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. 40Beware, therefore, lest what is said in the Prophets should come about:
41 “‘Look, you scoffers,
be astounded and perish;
for I am doing a work in your days,
a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.’”
42As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath. 43And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, urged them to continue in the grace of God.
44The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. 46And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,
“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. 49And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region. 50But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51But they shook off the dust from their feet against them and went to Iconium. 52And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
see, i'm having trouble seeing any 2000 year blinding gap in this.
or some Gentile Christian Era thing.
can anyone show me in Acts?
this distinction?
what about in the words of Jesus, clearly and not in figures of trees.
show me Jesus saying He plans Two people, Two Covenants and people don't need to acknowledge Him.
someone show me JESUS saying it.
EVER.
or some Gentile Christian Era thing.
can anyone show me in Acts?
this distinction?
what about in the words of Jesus, clearly and not in figures of trees.
show me Jesus saying He plans Two people, Two Covenants and people don't need to acknowledge Him.
someone show me JESUS saying it.
EVER.
well, here's that thorny problem of Galatians again.
what's wrong with Paul?
i have to read really carefully to see if he's saying what ellis is claiming...let's see....
Galatians 1
Greeting
1Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2and all the brothers who are with me,
To the churches of Galatia:
3Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
No Other Gospel
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
10For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servantb of Christ.
Paul Called by God
11For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel.c 12For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. 13For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15But when he who had set me apart before I was born,d and who called me by his grace, 16was pleased to reveal his Son toe me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;f 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
18Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. 19But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. 20(In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!) 21Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23They only were hearing it said, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24And they glorified God because of me.
For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it.
And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.
He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.
was Paul a rogue in all of this?
what is he talking about?
did he act alone in trying to destroy the faith?
what faith? shouldn't he have known what faith?
i thought he was safe in the Good Old Testament Wineskin Witness Tree.
what does he mean he persecuted the Church of God?
wasn't he already IN the Church of God?
what's wrong with Paul?
i have to read really carefully to see if he's saying what ellis is claiming...let's see....
Galatians 1
Greeting
1Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2and all the brothers who are with me,
To the churches of Galatia:
3Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
No Other Gospel
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
10For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servantb of Christ.
Paul Called by God
11For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel.c 12For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. 13For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15But when he who had set me apart before I was born,d and who called me by his grace, 16was pleased to reveal his Son toe me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;f 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
18Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. 19But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. 20(In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!) 21Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23They only were hearing it said, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24And they glorified God because of me.
For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it.
And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.
He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.
was Paul a rogue in all of this?
what is he talking about?
did he act alone in trying to destroy the faith?
what faith? shouldn't he have known what faith?
i thought he was safe in the Good Old Testament Wineskin Witness Tree.
what does he mean he persecuted the Church of God?
wasn't he already IN the Church of God?
1
You use statements like that as almost some sort of moral cover, to escape scrutiny from some of the VERY concerning things you teach. If you can label the scrutiny as the fruits of you simply "standing on scripture", then you hope that gives you a perceived moral high ground. I mean after all, only people who stand on scripture get "hounded" and "attacked" right?
You go around teaching things like...
Link to actual quote from YOU-->http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...el-out-chronological-order-13.html#post962441
For years and years, you've taught in books and sermons to many, that someone can be saved without recognizing Jesus as Messiah!
The scrutiny and hounding you get isn't because you "stand on scripture" or go against "tradition". It's because you appear to be teaching a salvation that can happen without recognizing Jesus. And hiding behind "I'm just standing on scripture" to avoid scrutiny on your very concerning teaching on this, is incredibly concerning.
Other teachers have tried to teach a salvation that comes from not recognizing Jesus.
[video=youtube;oaE9w8RNJao]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaE9w8RNJao[/video]
You go around teaching things like...
Link to actual quote from YOU-->http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...el-out-chronological-order-13.html#post962441
For years and years, you've taught in books and sermons to many, that someone can be saved without recognizing Jesus as Messiah!
The scrutiny and hounding you get isn't because you "stand on scripture" or go against "tradition". It's because you appear to be teaching a salvation that can happen without recognizing Jesus. And hiding behind "I'm just standing on scripture" to avoid scrutiny on your very concerning teaching on this, is incredibly concerning.
Other teachers have tried to teach a salvation that comes from not recognizing Jesus.
[video=youtube;oaE9w8RNJao]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaE9w8RNJao[/video]
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D
If you want to ignore the fact that the Jews do control Jreusalem. Go right ahead but that still does not change the fact that Jreusalem is now under Israel’s government is back under Jewish control. It’s up to you believe the facts or ignore them just because they don’t fit your.
So despite the fact that the Jews have instituted their own government and are now a sovereign nation under their own control, recognized by the UN does not mean they are in control of their own country? Interesting logic you use there my friend, makes perfect sense if one isn’t interested in truth and is only interested in promoting their unprovable futurist propoganda.
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches(G1577): and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches(G1577).
G1577 ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
Churches are the believers as a group. Yes the believers have been slain and left dead in the streets ever since the tribulation began back in the first century. But even as one life ended when a believer had finished their testimony another stepped up and started his. No man can live for centuries, but the chain of believers the church can. We can only serve God the lengths of our lives and when that life is over we have finished our testimony. How many Christians and Jews have been slain and left in the streets of Jerusalem over the last 2000 or so years? Through out the centuries haven’t the persecutors rejoiced at their deaths? At the last trump when all are resurrected arise won’t fear fall upon the persecutors that see this?
It’s not forcing a fit when you use the definitions Scripture provides.
T
Over in the holy is a nation of Jews. That in itself is a remarkable miracle. Driven from their homeland and dispersed among the Gentile nations in 70 A.D., the Jews somehow remained a unified people, looking forward to their coming Messiah and their restoration to the land as promised to them by God. Throughout the Christian era those Jews were persecuted by so-called Christians, driven into ghettos, robbed, raped, tortured, the Spanish Inquisition with 70,000 murdered, the Nazi Holocaust with 6,000,000 more, the skins of some turned into lampshades. And that is the people with whom God made an everlasting covenant.
God told Daniel, “from the time regular sacrifices are abolished and the abomination that makes desolate set up there shall be 1290 days.” From the time regular sacrifices were abolished in Daniel’s time until the Islamic Dome of the Rock was built in 688 A.D., on the Temple Mount of God most holy, was was exactly 1290 Hebrew years, That is a historic fact!
Then Jesus told John, “And the woman (Israel) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” The new nation of Israel was established in 1948-1260=688 A.D., another historic fact!
Jesus also told John, “and the court which is without the temple leave without, and measure it not; for it hath been given unto the nations: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.” The Dome of the Rock is in the quarter that Gentiles, 300 feet South of where the Temple of Solomon once stood. 42 months is 1278.34 days. Jerusalem was freed of Gentile domination in 1967 –1278.34=688 A.D., one more historic fact!
So so it is obvious that the physical seed of Abraham, the Jewish people, were still part of God’s plan for the Christian era!
Jesus said further, “The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks are seven churches.” Jesus also told John, “I will give unto my two witnesses . . . these are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the Lord of the earth.” Since candlesticks are churches in Revelation 1, they are also churches in Revelation 11 unless God changes the definition of candlesticks somewhere in between. He didn’t, so the two witnesses are two churches.
But who are the olive trees? You look for the closest contextual definition of olive trees in the New Testament and what do you find? “For if thou (the Gentile Church) wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree (the Jewish People); how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
OK, OK, I see it, the Two Witnesses are the Church and the Jewish people, but those millions of Jews whom the so-called church tortured and killed throughout the Christian era, why they’re going to hell because they didn’t accept Yeshua as their Messiah. Not according to these verses: “As touching the gospel, they (the Jews) are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”
Of course the Jews are enemies of the Gospel, the so-called Church did it to them! So rather than pompously declaring that God forgot His everlasting covenant with the physical seed of Abraham, we need to repent for what we have done to those precious Jews for whom our Savior died, who continued to follow the G-d of Torah and the writings, despite everything we have done to them.
God blinded the Jewish people to the Gospel, for our sake. He does take away the blindness from some, so it remains our duty to teach Jesus to them. But He does not take the blindness away from all. I do not now and never have taught a salvation outside of Jesus or that we should not try to lead every soul to the Lord we can. I must admit, though, that I’m sick of the distortions and misrepresentations of what I believe and have taught for 35 years.
God told Daniel, “from the time regular sacrifices are abolished and the abomination that makes desolate set up there shall be 1290 days.” From the time regular sacrifices were abolished in Daniel’s time until the Islamic Dome of the Rock was built in 688 A.D., on the Temple Mount of God most holy, was was exactly 1290 Hebrew years, That is a historic fact!
Then Jesus told John, “And the woman (Israel) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” The new nation of Israel was established in 1948-1260=688 A.D., another historic fact!
Jesus also told John, “and the court which is without the temple leave without, and measure it not; for it hath been given unto the nations: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.” The Dome of the Rock is in the quarter that Gentiles, 300 feet South of where the Temple of Solomon once stood. 42 months is 1278.34 days. Jerusalem was freed of Gentile domination in 1967 –1278.34=688 A.D., one more historic fact!
So so it is obvious that the physical seed of Abraham, the Jewish people, were still part of God’s plan for the Christian era!
Jesus said further, “The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks are seven churches.” Jesus also told John, “I will give unto my two witnesses . . . these are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the Lord of the earth.” Since candlesticks are churches in Revelation 1, they are also churches in Revelation 11 unless God changes the definition of candlesticks somewhere in between. He didn’t, so the two witnesses are two churches.
But who are the olive trees? You look for the closest contextual definition of olive trees in the New Testament and what do you find? “For if thou (the Gentile Church) wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree (the Jewish People); how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
OK, OK, I see it, the Two Witnesses are the Church and the Jewish people, but those millions of Jews whom the so-called church tortured and killed throughout the Christian era, why they’re going to hell because they didn’t accept Yeshua as their Messiah. Not according to these verses: “As touching the gospel, they (the Jews) are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”
Of course the Jews are enemies of the Gospel, the so-called Church did it to them! So rather than pompously declaring that God forgot His everlasting covenant with the physical seed of Abraham, we need to repent for what we have done to those precious Jews for whom our Savior died, who continued to follow the G-d of Torah and the writings, despite everything we have done to them.
God blinded the Jewish people to the Gospel, for our sake. He does take away the blindness from some, so it remains our duty to teach Jesus to them. But He does not take the blindness away from all. I do not now and never have taught a salvation outside of Jesus or that we should not try to lead every soul to the Lord we can. I must admit, though, that I’m sick of the distortions and misrepresentations of what I believe and have taught for 35 years.
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