Dead to the law

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Oct 31, 2011
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it seems to me there are some misunderstandings happening, and I'm sure that I do not have the answers, but what I can I will do, and that is to point out some bones we seem to contend with...

first, when we're talking about the law, we have to remember that legal things use legal terms which may have differing usages dependent upon application....example: contempt. The word 'contempt', for those of us who don't spend a lot of time in court or watching television (court tv etc), is something akin to holding a grudge, but in terms of law it has a more specific meaning (ie, being held in contempt, basically meaning you're so against the law that you can't even respect it long enough to be tried in court right now).

ok so second, the words "law", and "commandments", are speaking of people who are bound to follow those laws (either by birth[such as civil laws] or by pledge or oath [such as a covenant or marriage, either to God or to a person])

When Moses went up the mountain, he was representing a people who were already under a covenant relationship with God, these were the people to whom the 10 commandments were given, but the people proved repeatedly they couldn't handle it. These idiots wanted more laws. They didn't even want to see God, they said they'd really rather not. So Moses gave them more laws. They were given a system where to be reconciled to God, they had to kill something, but God didn't give that to them because he desired sacrifice, God wanted a relationship. Because they didn't want a relationship with God, and would rather use death for reconciliation, they clung to the commands, even twisting them to be on the safe side. So Jesus, who repeatedly healed on the Sabbath, was accused of breaking the law, but we know Jesus never sinned. God asks us not to go our own way on the Sabbath, it's a day of rest, but if we lose the SPIRIT of the law, we can sin while still following the law.

So before Christ came, during the time of the covenant God had with his chosen people, had a lot of things that were just for them, such as the system of sacrifices. We can learn from reading those passages, and we cannot throw them out, because that would be to say we didn't need Christ. That doesn't mean you have to sacrifice things. That part was for those (in Israel) who would die before Christ, who followed the law the best they could, repented when they could not, and hoped on the promise of a Messiah.

So we can stop saying, "are you saying we have to follow the whole law of moses?", because that's not what I see the "lawkeepers" suggesting. They seem to me to be talking about the Law of Yahweh, which is a different thing.

So now that Christ has fulfilled the covenant/law given for the good olive tree- WOAH ok, lets not get info overload. Christ fulfilled the law by fulfilling the covenant. A covenant is also called a promise, or a contract. The word contract is a legal term, and since Israel had it's own legal system, they would have understood that the obligations, and corresponding promises, refer to a contract. If I have a contract that you will put a roof on my house, the roof goes up, the money is paid, the contract is now finished. Not that it didn't exist or have significance. So now, anyone who wants to go back to the contract between Israel and God, are rejecting Christ, and they are choosing to be judged according to the laws they want instead of the Spirit being offered. They want to plow last winters snow.
Anyway, Christ is our high priest, in the order of Melchisedek (a priesthood that existed before Israel, and therefor before Aaron)....the high priest has the power to agree on our behalf to a new covenant. In the new covenant, we are yoked to Christ....ok pause...

If we are free indeed why are we still being yoked? wouldn't that be bondage like the old law was? no, Jesus said, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew 11:30

What is a yoke, and how it relates to freedom or bondage, seems also to be a bone of contention here, although nobody seems to want to say it out loud, you can hear it in the spirit of people saying "which laws do you follow", "do you follow them perfectly?", so lets think for a second about yokes.

A yoke is a device of wood and rope, it bound 2 creatures together so that they worked as one unit. This is why we should not, to the extent we can help it, be "yoked unevenly" with a non-believer. Neither would go anywhere. If Jesus is on a mission to preach the Gospel, then we are on that mission too. We walk with Christ as we do what he does, as he saw the Father and did as he did, we should be seeing Christ and doing as he does. Since we can only see him by faith, we have to look at things and be observant (as a servant who knows not the hour when his master comes), and we have to do as we're told. Just as in any partnership, one must lead, such as a marriage, where like it or not, the man is the head; so in the church Christ is the head, and he told us what his commands are, and how to keep them, and even tells us that his spirit will dwell within us to help us. We need only accept the gift of salvation. If after we are married to Christ, we choose not to keep the commandments he gives us, we can be sure we are not going to accomplish anything in life. I'm not saying you go to hell. I'm saying Christians still have to obey they commandments given by Christ in order to walk with him, because of the yoke. So if you say you are running the race, and you are not in obedience and repentance, you deceive yourself.

If we consider that we need both the law, and the grace to fulfill the law, and that it needs to be the law of YHWH (the 10 commandments, and seek God/love your neighbor), not of Moses, I think some may see with more light.
This explanation is absolutely excellent. It is exact, as our God is exact.

However, I think you are still giving a picture of the sacrifices God asked man for without taking into account the explanation of them given by Amos, Hosea, and Isaiah. The Hebrews were using what God meant as a shadow or explanation of Christ, in the same way heathens were sacrificing to idols, to beg for mercy from an unloving God. God is eternal, the same always. God wants us to go to Him in love, God wants us to obey Him by giving love and justice as God gives love and justice to us. In Isaiah 1:11 What are all your sacrifices to Me?" asks the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings and rams and the fat of well-fed cattle; I have no desire for the blood of bulls, lambs, or male goats.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
it seems to me there are some misunderstandings happening, and I'm sure that I do not have the answers, but what I can I will do, and that is to point out some bones we seem to contend with...

first, when we're talking about the law, we have to remember that legal things use legal terms which may have differing usages dependent upon application....example: contempt. The word 'contempt', for those of us who don't spend a lot of time in court or watching television (court tv etc), is something akin to holding a grudge, but in terms of law it has a more specific meaning (ie, being held in contempt, basically meaning you're so against the law that you can't even respect it long enough to be tried in court right now).

ok so second, the words "law", and "commandments", are speaking of people who are bound to follow those laws (either by birth[such as civil laws] or by pledge or oath [such as a covenant or marriage, either to God or to a person])

When Moses went up the mountain, he was representing a people who were already under a covenant relationship with God, these were the people to whom the 10 commandments were given, but the people proved repeatedly they couldn't handle it. These idiots wanted more laws. They didn't even want to see God, they said they'd really rather not. So Moses gave them more laws. They were given a system where to be reconciled to God, they had to kill something, but God didn't give that to them because he desired sacrifice, God wanted a relationship. Because they didn't want a relationship with God, and would rather use death for reconciliation, they clung to the commands, even twisting them to be on the safe side. So Jesus, who repeatedly healed on the Sabbath, was accused of breaking the law, but we know Jesus never sinned. God asks us not to go our own way on the Sabbath, it's a day of rest, but if we lose the SPIRIT of the law, we can sin while still following the law.

So before Christ came, during the time of the covenant God had with his chosen people, had a lot of things that were just for them, such as the system of sacrifices. We can learn from reading those passages, and we cannot throw them out, because that would be to say we didn't need Christ. That doesn't mean you have to sacrifice things. That part was for those (in Israel) who would die before Christ, who followed the law the best they could, repented when they could not, and hoped on the promise of a Messiah.

So we can stop saying, "are you saying we have to follow the whole law of moses?", because that's not what I see the "lawkeepers" suggesting. They seem to me to be talking about the Law of Yahweh, which is a different thing.

So now that Christ has fulfilled the covenant/law given for the good olive tree- WOAH ok, lets not get info overload. Christ fulfilled the law by fulfilling the covenant. A covenant is also called a promise, or a contract. The word contract is a legal term, and since Israel had it's own legal system, they would have understood that the obligations, and corresponding promises, refer to a contract. If I have a contract that you will put a roof on my house, the roof goes up, the money is paid, the contract is now finished. Not that it didn't exist or have significance. So now, anyone who wants to go back to the contract between Israel and God, are rejecting Christ, and they are choosing to be judged according to the laws they want instead of the Spirit being offered. They want to plow last winters snow.
Anyway, Christ is our high priest, in the order of Melchisedek (a priesthood that existed before Israel, and therefor before Aaron)....the high priest has the power to agree on our behalf to a new covenant. In the new covenant, we are yoked to Christ....ok pause...

If we are free indeed why are we still being yoked? wouldn't that be bondage like the old law was? no, Jesus said, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew 11:30

What is a yoke, and how it relates to freedom or bondage, seems also to be a bone of contention here, although nobody seems to want to say it out loud, you can hear it in the spirit of people saying "which laws do you follow", "do you follow them perfectly?", so lets think for a second about yokes.

A yoke is a device of wood and rope, it bound 2 creatures together so that they worked as one unit. This is why we should not, to the extent we can help it, be "yoked unevenly" with a non-believer. Neither would go anywhere. If Jesus is on a mission to preach the Gospel, then we are on that mission too. We walk with Christ as we do what he does, as he saw the Father and did as he did, we should be seeing Christ and doing as he does. Since we can only see him by faith, we have to look at things and be observant (as a servant who knows not the hour when his master comes), and we have to do as we're told. Just as in any partnership, one must lead, such as a marriage, where like it or not, the man is the head; so in the church Christ is the head, and he told us what his commands are, and how to keep them, and even tells us that his spirit will dwell within us to help us. We need only accept the gift of salvation. If after we are married to Christ, we choose not to keep the commandments he gives us, we can be sure we are not going to accomplish anything in life. I'm not saying you go to hell. I'm saying Christians still have to obey they commandments given by Christ in order to walk with him, because of the yoke. So if you say you are running the race, and you are not in obedience and repentance, you deceive yourself.

If we consider that we need both the law, and the grace to fulfill the law, and that it needs to be the law of YHWH (the 10 commandments, and seek God/love your neighbor), not of Moses, I think some may see with more light.
Very good indeed!
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
God working in you doesn't mean we aren't participating, if we aren't consenting to things at the very least, than Jesus wouldn't have said that those who loved him would do his commandments. It should be that the grace of God moves you to walk in the Spirit, and in that state, you wont transgress the law. This doesn't mean that we should be ignorant of the law. (maybe I just suck, but I'm not "in the spirit" 100% of my day like I aught to be, sometimes the law helps me defeat the enemy or grow in such a way that I am able to stay in the spirit more, but any attitude of a rebellious nature, and I'm back to repentance)
If you've grown so mature in Christ, that you are in the spirit naturally obedient at all times, then praise God. If you haven't or if you know people who haven't, the rest of scripture is useful =)

Amen, thank God for Jesus
That is true


1 Corinthians 3:9 KJV
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
 
B

BradC

Guest
Keeping the law is not an easy yoke to bear up under, but one full of labors because of original sin and because of a heart that is deceitful and desperately wicked. Don't be persuaded in your heart and mind that there is any goodness or ability in man that will allow him to be able to keep the law and have the righteousness of God imputed or imparted to him for doing so. However, if we walk by faith in the promises of God, He imputes and imparts his righteousness unto us. The law and the promises of God are not the same. Moses did not come down from the mount with the promises of God, he came with the law and with the condemnation that came with it. The law was given to reveal sin and show the true condition of the heart in man, but the promises of God were given to reveal Christ and his righteousness by faith, to impart life through the Spirit and to reveal the heart of the Father in heaven.

We do not escape the corruption that is in the world by our labor in keeping the law, but we do escape corruption through the promises of God by faith. We also become a partaker of God's divine nature through those promises and not through keeping the law (2 Peter 1:4). This is the yoke that Christ promised to all that would come to him, an easy yoke and a light burden that would provide rest for the soul (Mt 11:28-30). We are to come under this yoke that is filled with grace and truth to set us free and not under the yoke of the law that condemns and burdens those who labor under it. The work of the cross satisfied all of the righteous demands of the Father to put an end to the law and to bring grace and truth and faith-rest into our soul. Of his fulness have all we received, grace for grace (John 1:16,17).

Rom 6:11-18
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Can anyone tell us what Paul was speaking of in (v.17) when he referred to 'that form of doctrine which was delivered'?
 
B

BradC

Guest
God working in you doesn't mean we aren't participating, if we aren't consenting to things at the very least, than Jesus wouldn't have said that those who loved him would do his commandments. It should be that the grace of God moves you to walk in the Spirit, and in that state, you wont transgress the law. This doesn't mean that we should be ignorant of the law. (maybe I just suck, but I'm not "in the spirit" 100% of my day like I aught to be, sometimes the law helps me defeat the enemy or grow in such a way that I am able to stay in the spirit more, but any attitude of a rebellious nature, and I'm back to repentance)
If you've grown so mature in Christ, that you are in the spirit naturally obedient at all times, then praise God. If you haven't or if you know people who haven't, the rest of scripture is useful =)

Amen, thank God for Jesus
The purpose of the commandments under the law is not the same as the commandments under grace. The commandments under the law were given that we might be found as guilty sinners who have missed the mark and that every mouth might be stopped of its murmuring and complaining. However, the commandments given to us under grace and truth were given that we might have faith to walk in the promises of God and be motivated by the love of God through the Spirit to love God, to love His Son, to love ourselves, to love one another and to love our neighbor as ourselves, with NO CONDEMNATION. Under the law we could be condemned for our transgressions but under grace when sin abounds in the flesh or through transgressions, grace abounds much more to bring in restoration and cleansing that we might have life more abundantly because all sin and all transgressions have been judged and put away through the cross.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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107
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Romans 7:4 KJV
(4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Galatians 2:19 KJV
(19) For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Does dead to the law mean we no longer have to keep the law?
Dead to the law means

Dead=2289. thanatoo than-at-o'-o from 2288 to kill (literally or figuratively):--become dead, (cause to be) put to death, kill, mortify.

to= 1519. eis ice a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.)

the= 3588. the definite article;

Law=3551. nomos nom'-os from a primary nemo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specially, (of Moses (including the volume); also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle):--law.

Romans 8:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Therefore "dead to the law" means to use it to mortify the flesh as a road leading to that end.

Mark 8:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP]And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Luke 9:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Luke 14:27 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Carrying the cross is to mortify the deeds of the flesh.

Ezra 9:13-15 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]O LORD God of Israel, thou art righteous: for we remain yet escaped, as it is this day: behold, we are before thee in our trespasses: for we cannot stand before thee because of this.