Dead to the law

[RedTent]

The law was given precisely because Grace was rejected.

For those turning back to the law today do the same thing. Do they do it knowingly or is the veil over their eyes? Probably a little bit of both. Feeling like they are undeserving of His Grace and Love they turn toward the curse which they do deserve.

The secret is all of us deserve the curse and none of us deserve His Grace and Love. When a persons heart turns toward the Lord Jesus Christ all of that junk in the past is forgiven. A new man arises from the ashes. One that can know Love, Peace, Joy.

Your love, peace, joy, shalom etc... doesn't come from the law. It comes from Christ and Christ Alone. The result of this love, peace and joy is that the law is established. 1 Corinthians 13...

Grandpa, you have the beginning of what the bible teaches us about God down pat, we need the Holy Spirit to even be able to recognize the spiritual world you talk of so eloquently. God gives grace and love to us. That is beauty, strength and power. No matter what we do or how we live, it is always available to us when we turn to Christ. It doesn't come from the law, it comes from Christ but we HAVE to know where the law fits into this and you are asking us not to know.

Now read on in the bible. If you stop there you lose the Holy Spirit as a teacher, for if you refuse to listen to God tell you just what the Holy Spirit is leading you to, and God tells you that in the written law, then you refuse to let in your mind what the Holy Spirit is telling you.

When you, as a Christian are listened to by babies in the word, you are leading the very church into not listening. It is serious.

 

[Vernon]

The priesthood has been transferred to the order of the malak zadiq, Yahshua the Messiah is now High Priest, this dosent change do not kill.

Also while none are perfect there is a difference between committing a sin and not even subjecting one person to Yahweh;s Law.

I personally subject myself to all of Yahweh's 613+ Laws, if I sin:

1 Yahchanan (John) 1:9-10, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Law is not in us."

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:3-4, "Now by this we do know that we know Him: If we keep His Laws. He who says: I know Him, 1but does not keep His Law, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


HOWEVER those who wont even subject themselves to Yahweh's Law fall in a different category:

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 ἀνομία anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

So you are trying to observe the 613 laws as penned in the torah? This is the answer I never seem to get explained here by those who claim we must obey "the law" to be saved. WHAT LAW ? you have already changed the law of moses by saying we now follow a melchizedek priesthood.
I feel those who say to people you must follow the LAW and it has not changed, but then explain how it has changed is all very confusing and not from the Holy Spirit.
I am accused of saying we do not have to follow the law when I never said that.
Some seem to want to spread fear and doubt to people claiming they are not saved because they do not perceive and obey God correctly.
I do not fear or doubt my faith because I have the witness of the Holy Spirit who testifies to my soul that I walk with God.
I do not need to be converted to some form of bondage that those who proclaim I must follow to be saved, I follow Jesus Christ and I hear his voice.
To be told I believe Very Wrongly is a lie, and presumptuous on the part of John832. No one on this web site knows my heart or how I follow God, no one on this web site can judge or condemn me.
I said we have liberty in Christ, which you law abiders all take by redefining the unchanging law to how you perceive we are now to obey it.
I want you to explain to me this mysterious law we are all commanded to obey or perish from the presence of God. It would seem to be of the most utmost importance to know and follow this law lest we all perish.

 

[BradC]

By keeping the law it does nothing to impart or impute righteousness to anyone, even those who are under the law. There is no revelation of the righteousness of God by keeping or observing any aspect of the law. Obedience to the law can not be used to justify any act of disobedience that has been made against it. We can not make up for our shortcomings or transgressions of the law by keeping the law through obedience because the law has already condemned us as guilty sinners.

Why would we want to keep the law that has already condemned us? So God had to go outside the law and give us his Son so that we might have his righteousness through his Son and when God did that the law and the prophets witnessed that work of righteousness that took place on the cross and it was finished. Finished meaning that what the law could not do, Christ did through the cross by condemning sin in his own flesh and putting it away. Now sinful man could believe unto the righteousness of God by faith through Christ and walk in that righteousness by faith (Rom 1:17,18), not according to the law but according to grace given to us through the finished work of Christ (John 19:30, Eph 2:8.9).

 

[john832]

So you are trying to observe the 613 laws as penned in the torah? This is the answer I never seem to get explained here by those who claim we must obey "the law" to be saved. WHAT LAW ? you have already changed the law of moses by saying we now follow a melchizedek priesthood.

No, Christ changed the Priesthood. He has the authority to do that. I am pretty sure neither you nor I have that authority.

I feel those who say to people you must follow the LAW and it has not changed, but then explain how it has changed is all very confusing and not from the Holy Spirit.
I am accused of saying we do not have to follow the law when I never said that.

OK, there is one Law that separates the men from the boys on this one. It plainly shows who puts their money where their mouth is. How ya doin' on that fourth Commandment?

Some seem to want to spread fear and doubt to people claiming they are not saved because they do not perceive and obey God correctly.
I do not fear or doubt my faith because I have the witness of the Holy Spirit who testifies to my soul that I walk with God.
I do not need to be converted to some form of bondage that those who proclaim I must follow to be saved, I follow Jesus Christ and I hear his voice.

Are you sure? Whose voice did Christ follow?

Joh 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

Funny thing, these are the words of Christ...

Mat 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Mat 19:18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, " 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER,' 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,' 'YOU SHALL NOT STEAL,' 'YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS,'
Mat 19:19 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER,' and, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' "

And according to what we just read in John 12, these are really the words of the Father. The words He taught Jesus to say...

Joh 14:24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

And what did He say in that chapter?

Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

Which are really the words of the Father.

To be told I believe Very Wrongly is a lie, and presumptuous on the part of John832. No one on this web site knows my heart or how I follow God, no one on this web site can judge or condemn me.

Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

You tell someone not to keep the Law of God, to be lawless and you have produced certain fruit.

I said we have liberty in Christ, which you law abiders all take by redefining the unchanging law to how you perceive we are now to obey it.
I want you to explain to me this mysterious law we are all commanded to obey or perish from the presence of God. It would seem to be of the most utmost importance to know and follow this law lest we all perish.

Tell you what, I'll let Christ tell you...

Mat 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Mat 19:18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, " 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER,' 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,' 'YOU SHALL NOT STEAL,' 'YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS,'
Mat 19:19 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER,' and, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' "

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[Hizikyah]

So you are trying to observe the 613 laws as penned in the torah? This is the answer I never seem to get explained here by those who claim we must obey "the law" to be saved. WHAT LAW ? you have already changed the law of moses by saying we now follow a melchizedek priesthood.
I feel those who say to people you must follow the LAW and it has not changed, but then explain how it has changed is all very confusing and not from the Holy Spirit.
I am accused of saying we do not have to follow the law when I never said that.
Some seem to want to spread fear and doubt to people claiming they are not saved because they do not perceive and obey God correctly.
I do not fear or doubt my faith because I have the witness of the Holy Spirit who testifies to my soul that I walk with God.
I do not need to be converted to some form of bondage that those who proclaim I must follow to be saved, I follow Jesus Christ and I hear his voice.
To be told I believe Very Wrongly is a lie, and presumptuous on the part of John832. No one on this web site knows my heart or how I follow God, no one on this web site can judge or condemn me.
I said we have liberty in Christ, which you law abiders all take by redefining the unchanging law to how you perceive we are now to obey it.
I want you to explain to me this mysterious law we are all commanded to obey or perish from the presence of God. It would seem to be of the most utmost importance to know and follow this law lest we all perish.

When I accepted Messiah sincerely I changed:

Yeremyah 31:33, "After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; minds, and I will be their Father, and they will be My people."

8451. torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah
Phonetic Spelling: (to-raw') Short Definition: law

I didnt change anything, the priesthood was designed for the order of Melchizedek, its not like Yahweh didnt see it coming.

Also was the Law changed for Sacrificing Messiah? OR is that what the Law was really intended for?

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

 

[Laodicea]

I can't find anything written in the NT scriptures that even hints that we are alive or that we live unto the law. It would be worthy of consideration if it could be found. The life that we live in our flesh, we live by the faith of the Son of God. He is the faith and our faith that came, that was given to them who believe, that we might be justified by faith and no longer be under the schoolmaster of the law. To be dead to the law means that we have the faith of Christ, being alive into God and we are no longer under the obligation and duty of the law. The law brought us to Christ but could not remove sin or provide us with the righteousness of God. Only faith in Christ and his work on the cross could do those two things and when it was finished we could have it all by faith without being under the obligation of the law.

Do you think the words of Jesus in the NT conflict with His words in the OT?

 

[john832]

By keeping the law it does nothing to impart or impute righteousness to anyone, even those who are under the law. There is no revelation of the righteousness of God by keeping or observing any aspect of the law. Obedience to the law can not be used to justify any act of disobedience that has been made against it. We can not make up for our shortcomings or transgressions of the law by keeping the law through obedience because the law has already condemned us as guilty sinners.

That is why we need grace. Grace is the unearned, undeserved pardon, forgiveness for breaking the Law.

Why would we want to keep the law that has already condemned us?

Because...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And every time we sin we incur the death penalty. Someone has to pay. Thankfully, the Father and Christ determined this from before the first atom of the universe was created...

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus Christ paid for those sins. Now how does He feel about someone just sinning wilfully without restraint and a determination not to sin...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Sinning without regard is doing despite to the Spirit of grace.

So God had to go outside the law and give us his Son so that we might have his righteousness through his Son and when God did that the law and the prophets witnessed that work of righteousness that took place on the cross and it was finished. Finished meaning that what the law could not do, Christ did through the cross by condemning sin in his own flesh and putting it away.

What was it He put away? The Law? of sin. He put sin away. He paid the price by dying in our stead.

Now sinful man could believe unto the righteousness of God by faith through Christ and walk in that righteousness by faith (Rom 1:17,18), not according to the law but according to grace given to us through the finished work of Christ (John 19:30, Eph 2:8.9).[/B]

You misunderstand the concept of grace. Grace did not do away with the Law, it paid the price for our breaking of the Law. Nowhere in scripture does anyone say it doesn't matter what you do, the Law is no longer in effect. No one encourages unlawful actions because of grace. In fact, Paul warns against it...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And what is sin?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

What did Paul say about the Law?

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The problem is not the Law. Wanna see the problem, go look in a mirror...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

 

[Laodicea]

Galatians 5:22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

How does a person grow these fruits in their life? Do they try real hard and out of their own will create these fruits? Do they turn to the law to obey it perfectly to grow these fruit?

No. Of course not. The Only way these fruits are grown is if a person turns from their own will and strength and turns toward the Lord Jesus Christ and has faith that He will grow this fruit in their lives.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Paul doesn't tell you to disobey the law. Paul tells you that the laws purpose is to bring you to Christ so Christ can do in you what the law never could.

Galatians 3:24-26
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Is it wrong for a person to keep the law because Christ tells them? No one here follows the law, we follow Christ and obey because He tells us to.

Luke 6:46 KJV
(46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
John 14:15 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Exodus 20:6 KJV
(6) And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


Jesus in John 14:15 is quoting the 10 commandments as can be seen. Jesus is the I AM, He is the one who spoke the law on Sinai. So would His law in The OT be different to His law in the NT?

 

[danschance]

That is why we need grace. Grace is the unearned, undeserved pardon, forgiveness for breaking the Law.



Because...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And every time we sin we incur the death penalty. Someone has to pay. Thankfully, the Father and Christ determined this from before the first atom of the universe was created...

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus Christ paid for those sins. Now how does He feel about someone just sinning wilfully without restraint and a determination not to sin...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Sinning without regard is doing despite to the Spirit of grace.



What was it He put away? The Law? of sin. He put sin away. He paid the price by dying in our stead.



You misunderstand the concept of grace. Grace did not do away with the Law, it paid the price for our breaking of the Law. Nowhere in scripture does anyone say it doesn't matter what you do, the Law is no longer in effect. No one encourages unlawful actions because of grace. In fact, Paul warns against it...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And what is sin?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

What did Paul say about the Law?

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The problem is not the Law. Wanna see the problem, go look in a mirror...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

No one is claiming grace took away the law. Christ fulfilled the Mosaic law and now we are under the law of Christ. Grace takes the penalty of the law away. This is stuff I was taught in Sunday school.

 

[just-me]

Is it wrong for a person to keep the law because Christ tells them? No one here follows the law, we follow Christ and obey because He tells us to.

Luke 6:46 KJV
(46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
John 14:15 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Exodus 20:6 KJV
(6) And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


Jesus in John 14:15 is quoting the 10 commandments as can be seen. Jesus is the I AM, He is the one who spoke the law on Sinai. So would His law in The OT be different to His law in the NT?

I think it's amazing that professing Christians advocate that Jesus taught something different than His own Father. Taking this into consideration, we seem to lack the knowledge that Jesus created all things including principalities, and powers of the law also, along with everything else given and written by Moses. When taking all scripture into complete context, there is nothing wrong with acknowledging the law as a tool bringing us to Christ, and good for spiritual food for instruction. Seems some that deny this are scared of this because they can't understand the relevance of this part of God's Word that doesn't justify, yet helps us to grow in the Grace of Jesus Christ. Fighting against this confirms a carnal mind.

Colossians 1:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Romans 8:6-7 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[john832]

No one is claiming grace took away the law. Christ fulfilled the Mosaic law and now we are under the law of Christ. Grace takes the penalty of the law away. This is stuff I was taught in Sunday school.

And you were taught that on which day of the week? Would you please show me the Mosaic Law?

 

[john832]

I think it's amazing that professing Christians advocate that Jesus taught something different than His own Father.

Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

 

[RedTent]

No one is claiming grace took away the law. Christ fulfilled the Mosaic law and now we are under the law of Christ. Grace takes the penalty of the law away. This is stuff I was taught in Sunday school.

Christ was not against the law of His Father, the Mosaic Law. The word fulfilled as it is biblically given means to fill up, like if you have a glass of water but it is not completely full, if you fill it up you don't throw out the water that was in it before, you add to it. You are not understanding what you were taught.

Grace takes the penalty of the law away, but it does not take away all the goodness God wants to give us through the law.

If you were a child and your Father told you not to steal, and don't even think about wanting to steal, would you say that your Father was wrong to tell you not to steal?

 

[BradC]

That is why we need grace. Grace is the unearned, undeserved pardon, forgiveness for breaking the Law.



Because...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And every time we sin we incur the death penalty. Someone has to pay. Thankfully, the Father and Christ determined this from before the first atom of the universe was created...

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus Christ paid for those sins. Now how does He feel about someone just sinning wilfully without restraint and a determination not to sin...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Sinning without regard is doing despite to the Spirit of grace.



What was it He put away? The Law? of sin. He put sin away. He paid the price by dying in our stead.



You misunderstand the concept of grace. Grace did not do away with the Law, it paid the price for our breaking of the Law. Nowhere in scripture does anyone say it doesn't matter what you do, the Law is no longer in effect. No one encourages unlawful actions because of grace. In fact, Paul warns against it...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And what is sin?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

What did Paul say about the Law?

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The problem is not the Law. Wanna see the problem, go look in a mirror...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Why make an issue of the law if there is not issue to be made? Why do we have so much negation written concerning the law if the the law is still in force? Why not just mandate the law to the new believers who now trust in Christ so that they would know how to live. Then if they fail and transgress the law, they will not have to be subject to the condemnation of it. Why is that? Show me where the NT believers lived their life according to the laws that were given to Israel? Is this why so many of you do not like what Paul teaches about the law, the full scope of it in relationship to the believer who is justified by grace through faith and not the law? The same as the flesh and the Spirit are in conflict to one another so is the law and the grace of God. If a believer is under the law he must be under all of it, the commands, the deeds and the consequences of transgressing the commands.

You want the commands and the deeds of the law without the consequences. You want Christ to fulfill the law but when he fulfilled it you want the believer to do the same. Well, Christ fulfilled the law and suffered death for those who sinned against it. But you say we have to also fulfill the law and not have to suffer death because Christ did and you call that mercy and grace. So what do you call it when we fulfill the law, is it accounted unto us for righteousness? Is that righteousness, according to the keeping of the law, acceptable in God's sight and does it justify us before a holy God? Show me what the law can do that would equal, in any way, what Jesus did when he was crucified for sin. If the law was able to do a single thing that Christ did on the cross would we have needed to have Christ come? If the keeping of law is sufficient in granting us righteousness than all we need is the law and the cross is no avail to us nor the blood that was shed.

 

[Grandpa]

Is it wrong for a person to keep the law because Christ tells them? No one here follows the law, we follow Christ and obey because He tells us to.

Luke 6:46 KJV
(46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
John 14:15 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Exodus 20:6 KJV
(6) And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


Jesus in John 14:15 is quoting the 10 commandments as can be seen. Jesus is the I AM, He is the one who spoke the law on Sinai. So would His law in The OT be different to His law in the NT?

Which laws do you keep?

Do you keep all of them?

Perfectly?

 

[BradC]

The scriptures tell us that Christ is the end of the law of righteousness to everyone that believes (Rom 10:4). I have to believe what that scripture says and teaches, but you say you don't have to believe what it teaches nor abide by it. That is a major division and we are NT believers who have trusted in Christ, our righteousness (1Cor 1:30). So the ones who follow after the law unto righteousness have a problem with the righteousness of God that comes by faith in His Son.

 

[Hizikyah]

The scriptures tell us that Christ is the end of the law of righteousness to everyone that believes (Rom 10:4). I have to believe what that scripture says and teaches, but you say you don't have to believe what it teaches nor abide by it. That is a major division and we are NT believers who have trusted in Christ, our righteousness (1Cor 1:30). So the ones who follow after the law unto righteousness have a problem with the righteousness of God that comes by faith in His Son.

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Is he saying no more faith?

Or do most not understand the greek word "telos"

 

[Vernon]

For some reason the "law abiders" believe they have some special understanding of God and that all others are deceived. They alone interpret the word of God without error, while others are of the evil one. They mock the Pope for claiming to be infallible, all the while proclaiming themselves to be infallible. They mock anyone who would not bow down to their interpretation and warn them and say "Is God really with you?". They spread fear and doubt , they sow discord among believers. A contrite and humble spirit they despise. They seek not the salvation of others but rejoice in condemnation. They are puffed up and proud. They glory in the flesh and boast of their obedience.

Jesus Christ shall judge both the living and the dead. Let they who boast , boast in Him.

 

[Hizikyah]

For some reason the "law abiders" believe they have some special understanding of God and that all others are deceived. They alone interpret the word of God without error, while others are of the evil one. They mock the Pope for claiming to be infallible, all the while proclaiming themselves to be infallible. They mock anyone who would not bow down to their interpretation and warn them and say "Is God really with you?". They spread fear and doubt , they sow discord among believers. A contrite and humble spirit they despise. They seek not the salvation of others but rejoice in condemnation. They are puffed up and proud. They glory in the flesh and boast of their obedience.

Jesus Christ shall judge both the living and the dead. Let they who boast , boast in Him.

Wow there is people on this site claiming to be infallible?

That is the first I heard of that!......


1 Corinthians 2:9, "But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the mind of man the things which Yahweh has prepared for those who love Him."

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

Deuteronomy 10:12-13, "And now, O Israyl, what does Yahweh your Father require of you, but to reverence Yahweh your Father by walking in all His ways, by loving Him, by serving Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul. By keeping the Laws of Yahweh, with His statutes, which I command you this day, so that you may be blessed?"

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Mattithyah 22:37, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."

 

[RedTent]

The scriptures tell us that Christ is the end of the law of righteousness to everyone that believes (Rom 10:4). I have to believe what that scripture says and teaches, but you say you don't have to believe what it teaches nor abide by it. That is a major division and we are NT believers who have trusted in Christ, our righteousness (1Cor 1:30). So the ones who follow after the law unto righteousness have a problem with the righteousness of God that comes by faith in His Son.

You are so mixed up, and you are quoting scripture to uphold your mixup. Christ is the end of the law, because it is though Christ and not through law we are saved. In that way the law ended. We have to listen to all of scripture in order to understand how and why it still talks of law, to find out what place law has in our walk. We can't ignore any part of scripture and scripture tells us to listen to law.

Scripture tells us about faith. To know about faith is not to blind our eyes to grace, Christ, law, what saves us, or anything else that scripture teaches. In the same way scripture tells us what law does for us, we are to listen.