Death...The Price of Sin...Paid?

Yahshua · Dec 24, 2014

Yeah it's a good analogy and I'm glad JesusisTheChrist posted the remaining verses of chapter 15 because in it, it talks about the different "bodies" of glory. Indeed this flesh must go, truly. I don't want to come off as if I'm saying there will be bodies of corruptible flesh in the kingdom of heaven. But I guess I'm speaking of those who will never taste death at all, transformation notwithstanding.

Here's an interesting passage I've overlooked so many times that now raise my antenna..

John 21:22

So in this passage, Christ pretty much says to his apostles if he wants John to live *until* he returns so what? which means he can do it in this flesh (again *until* his coming); it's possible. Such a thing floors me...not because of its impossibility but exclusively because of its possibility. John was that close to Christ (not unlike Enoch with God, like Dcon mentioned).

So is it a thing where we simply don't believe enough that it's possible? Of course God must himself will such a thing...but if faith saves, is God just waiting on those who would finally believe this strongly...to become the few who would be changed?

It makes me wonder...

Yahshua · Dec 24, 2014

JesusistheChrist said:

Hi, Yahshua.

I wouldn't be too sure that Enoch and Elijah didn't die if I were you.

In relation to Enoch, we read:

Hebrews chapter 11

[5] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
[7] By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
[8] By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
[9] By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
[10] For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
[11] Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
[12] Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
[13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Scripture merely says that "Enoch was TRANSLATED that he should not see death" and this could easily mean that God simply moved him from a place of imminent danger to somewhere else. After all, the writer of the epistle to the Hebrews did go on to say that "these ALL DIED in faith", didn't he?

Regarding Elijah, years after he was caught up to heaven (there are at least three "heavens" in the Bible), King Jehoram received a letter from him:

II Chronicles chapter 21

[12] And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
[13] But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:
[14] Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:
[15] And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.

Unless the Post Office was really slow in those days, it certainly seems that Elijah was yet alive and on the earth after his famous chariot ride.

Finally, please remember what Jesus said during His Incarnation:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3:13)

If "NO MAN had ascended up to heaven" up until the time that Jesus uttered those words, then how could either Enoch or Elijah have "ascended up to heaven"?

For me I'm not too sure the portion that says "they all died in faith" was also referring to Enoch, as that example of faith had concluded before the writer continued with the remaining examples...Genesis 5 even makes a distinction between Enoch not dying while the other patriarchs of Adam died. Then as a time issue, I also consider that scripture says Christ was crucified from the foundation of the world and that even Abraham saw/believed Christ in faith. So time may be relative when it comes to who's a son of man "from heaven". Makes for an interesting side discussion.

Still, it's probably best to not lean so heavily on Enoch and Elijah. I think Paul's passage in 1 Corinthians 15 and Christ's passage in John 21:22 are interesting enough to ponder.

dcontroversal · Dec 24, 2014

You know a side not to ponder as well......God loves and rejoices in mercy.....maybe the ones who will be here when the Lord returns will be some of the greatest examples of mercy to be found.....Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy....

Just a thought.....

Yahshua · Dec 24, 2014

dcontroversal said:

That's REALLY interesting, as that would mean God purposely saved those people from physical death, that it wasn't a coincidence (not that anything with God is, but I hope you catch my meaning).

So do you think their (physical) death was paid by Christ too or was that requirement simply forgiven of those people? I might have answered my own question since God said he'll have mercy on whomever he'll have mercy, but I'd like to know others' thoughts.

(And I know we won't truly know until the day comes when all is revealed like Karraster says, but I appreciate your thoughts.)

dcontroversal · Dec 24, 2014

Yahshua said:

Well, how I look at is like this.....If I am still alive when the Lord returns it is definitely based upon his mercy as I for sure do not deserve it.....also at the same time......I believe Revelation has the answer as found applied unto the church of Philadelphia......

Because you have kept the word of my patience, I will also KEEP thee from the hour of temptation , which shall come upon all the world , to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The word keep means to watch over, guard from loss or injury, to keep unmarred.....

Many try to use this to teach the imminent return which contradicts scripture, because if that is the case what about the 6 other churches listed here......

1. The dead in Christ shall rise<--indicative of all of the dead
2. Those which are alive an remain will be changed

Those two groups together equal ALL the saved in Christ...there is no split rapture of the saved and no indication at all that the faithful will be taken and those not so faithful will be left to suffer.....

It is quite simple...those who keep the word of God will be hedged about and protected from harm and or loss or injury during the tribulation period as Jesus will protect them....They will be alive and remain...where as the ones who are unfaithful will be purified by the tribulation period and suffer loss of life and or harm.....

Just a thought or two.....

Karraster · Dec 25, 2014

I may have misunderstood your saying, "I've been dealing with death since August; beset all around me." What I took to mean, there has been recent death close to you..it strikes me after reading thru the posts, you may have meant the thought of death has troubled you? Not meaning to pry, unless of course you wish to elaborate, my point is simply words, and their meaning, how we interpret/convey, and the ever fluid language (archaic/modern). "Faith", for instance..it seems to have many definitions when relating to "salvation". The disciples of Yahshua asked for more faith, to which He indicated the smallest measure would bear fruit when acted upon. (..say to the mountain..)

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10. “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.”

When the body dies, it is asleep/conscious of nothing until Messiah comes.
************************
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Verily, verily I say unto you, unless a grain of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone; but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]He that loveth his life shall lose it, and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]If any man serve Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there shall also My servant be. If any man serve Me, him will My Father honor.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]“Now is My soul troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this cause came I unto this hour.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Father, glorify Thy name.” Then there came a voice from Heaven, saying, “I Have Both Glorified It, And Will Glorify It Again.”
[SUP]29 [/SUP]The people therefore who stood by and heard it said that it thundered. Others said, “An angel spoke to him.”

How is it, some heard only thunder, others heard a voice?

Also, that Messiah said His soul was troubled...even He, in His flesh body was subject to what is common to man, so even when we are troubled we can take heart and identify with our Messiah.

Born again = begotten again? I don't think so. My understanding is the translations I've read all my life, puts one for the other..we are begotten again into a lively hope (Paul says).... born again is at the end, when we receive incorruptible bodies.

I have entertained the thought..is he still alive, it is possible, however it is not for me to know yet. In the next verse it seems to give reason to question if that was the case though,

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, “If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou Me.”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then this saying went abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die. Yet Jesus had not said unto him, “He shall not die,” but, “If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?”

Death, the way I see it, is if our Creator has destroyed us altogether, and when the breath goes out of the body is merely sleep. We may be bothered at times concerning the unknown, but He has said we have nothing to fear if we abide in Him. I don't believe in eternal torment for the unbelievers, rather they cease to exist. Eternity would not be a good place, were the disobedient allowed to live forever. Even so, at Sodom and Gomorrah it's been proven that the brimstone/sulphur combined with the tar mortar of the buildings would have rendered a quick a death of suffocation, rather than excruciating pain and torment. See, even in judgement (I believe) our Father is most merciful and kind. We must return to dust before our change, unless of course we are still alive when He comes. (again opinion)

I hope I've not rambled too much.

Butch5 · Dec 25, 2014

Yahshua said:

I've been dealing with death since August; beset all around me. And an interesting thought came to mind when I awoke from sleep yesterday and I thought it may be an interesting new topic to discuss or debate...but knowing this forum, it probably was already discussed in one form or another, but I'd like to see what folks think about Death.

- Scripture says death is the price to be paid for sinning.

- Scripture says because of Adam's sin all people die.

- Scripture says because we sin we die.

- But scripture also says Christ paid the price, suffering once for all.

Again the price of sin is death...and Christ died for the believer, paying the price. Christ paid the price of sin...which is he died...for one who believes...So why do we believers still die? Did Christ pay the price or not?

Maybe a more provocative question would be: Why do we believe we still must die? If we "walk by faith and not by sight" why do we still believe in what we see when it comes to death?

Scripture says "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

...again, the price of sin is death...and Christ bore those sins...and died. Price paid.

- Scripture says whoever believes in Christ "will not perish/die but have everlasting life".

- Scripture says Christ is the life.

- Scripture says "I have been crucified with Christ on the Cross; that it's not me but Christ who lives in me"

- Scripture says "I was baptized in Christ's death, and as he was resurrected we walk in new life"

- Scripture says "...and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Yet we still believe we all will die even though we say we believe in Christ who is the life who saves us from death, the price of sin...the sin that he bore; we already dying with him on the cross. Or is it a thing where because we continue to sin we continue to die, which would mean Christ didn't pay for *all* of our sins right?

So these are my questions if you please:

1. If the price of sin is death, did Christ pay it for us or not? If so, why do we still die?

2. Or, if we still die because we still sin, then wouldn't that mean Christ didn't pay for *all* sins (past and future) but rather only paid for our past sins up to the point of confession, that it's on us to live righteously and not sin?

3. Or if he really did pay the full price (i.e. for *all* sin), is it simply a matter of our lack of faith that causes us to continue to die? Why don't we believe the price - death - was paid in full or believe we died with Christ (still believing we must ourselves also pay with a live...seems like double jeopardy)? Why do we still believe in the life we constantly see (death), instead of have faith in life we've never seen before (everlasting life) as Hebrews 11 defines faith...if indeed we are saved through faith? Would it even make a difference? Why or why not?

I'm just trying to frame my questions as best as possible, but I'd appreciate your thoughts on this subject (supported by scripture).

------

As a qualifier, here's the definition of "death" I follow from scripture:

Adam came from the earth, not heaven. And when he sinned God said Adam would "die" and defined it as "return to the dust of the earth from where he came". Adam was made a living person/soul *not* a (life-giving) spirit, like Christ is. There is a difference between a soul and a spirit. So Adam wasn't a spirit, that means no one born from Adam is a spirit either...only when one is "born again" in Christ (2nd Adam) is one a spirit. "That which is born of flesh is flesh...and that which is born of Spirit is spirit."

This tells me anyone who does not believe in Christ is still not spirit either, they're still a soul from Adam and must continue to go to where Adam went when he died...back to the dust of the earth.

Thanks in advance.

Hi,

I believe you are struggling with this question because of inconsistencies with the Penal model of the Atonement. It says that there was a price to be paid to God for sins and that Christ paid this price. I have rejected this teaching as it's a mideviel teaching and not what was taught in the beginning. In the classic view, the original view, Christ was a ransom paid to Satan to buy mankind's freedom. Under this model sins are forgiven by God, there is not a payment to Him. This is what we see throughout the Scriptures. The Scriptures don't talk about paying God for sins, that's an idea that has it's origins in Anselm of Canterbury, which was later refined into the Penal model of today by the Reformers. Needless to say it wasn't what the church believed for the first 1000 years of Christianity.

Yahshua · Dec 25, 2014

<To Butch5>

I appreciate your reply (I don't know why I can't quote reply right now???).

Maybe payment is the wrong word to use...but I think there is an atonement he makes for our sin, right? What do you make of the following passages in light of what you've shared?

1 John 2:2

Hebrews 2:17

Daniel 9:24

In other words, there was an effort of some sort Christ performed for the people's sins in fulfillment of the shadow picture of Day of Atonement, if the wage of sin is death as Romans 6:23 says.

Yahshua · Dec 25, 2014

<To Karraster>

No you weren't rambling too much lol and thank you for your post Karraster.

No you were quite correct in your discerning of my OP. Your original thought was correct, I'm just not one share such personal details in the forum (taking away from any study members could share). Yes I've been dealing with death since August concerning three in my family. Death tried to take all three, one right after the other in the span of two months, but it was only successful in claiming one...but she was one too many.

It's especially sharp since it was around my birthday. I lost my grandfather on my birthday when I was 8 and now my grandmother, his wife, only a couple of weeks after my birthday this year (and this was after another family member almost died). Then right after her my other grandmother began fighting for her life and only now has she made it through.

So the past 5 months have been a trying time for my faith. I feel like the chariots of Egypt are chasing behind me while I'm stuck at an impasse and God is eliciting the level of faith that splits the water (or moves the mountain like you mention).

...It's why I asked my third question in the OP. Is our Father simply waiting for strong enough faith to believe in the impossible so that death can finally be defeated? Is he looking for witnesses of John 11:26?

When I last slept I was awakened by the thought of my own death, feeling as if it was soon approaching. I don't dream strange dreams, so this - along with what's been going on - prompted the thread.

So yes the thought of death has been troubling me lately as you sensed. And when I need to understand something I turn to scripture, pour through its words and pray for understanding saying, "maybe there's still something I'm missing or misunderstanding. Maybe God's using this as a teaching moment. What does it all mean? Where are the examples?"

Truly it gives me comfort to know that the same thing troubled the Messiah and in an almost similar fashion.

And so I wondered whether this cup was actually drank by Christ and whether it was and we simply don't believe it fully yet. Have we (or more specifically have I) really died with Christ in faith just yet...and would that count as the payment if one were to truly commit to it and give themselves over completely; totally emptied. To truly die to self...100%. Because to be honest the exact thought I had while waking was "you must die one way or the other."

Could it be that my loved ones (and other Christians) and I simply don't believe it fully just yet; that death is truly defeated?

Recall for a moment the children of Israel, finally at the Jordan after disobeying (i.e. not believing) and wandering for 40 years. Once again they're standing at their crossroad. And with Joshua now at the helm God tells him to "be strong. Do not be afraid." and then he proceeds to cut off the waters of the Jordan so they can cross.

Now what's so striking about this scene is were the waters were cut off. There was a city at the time called "Adam" of all names. So in order to cross over into the promise God had waiting he had to "cut off the waters flowing from Adam." (Joshua 3:16). If this doesn't sound like dying to our first life I don't know what does lol.

So thanks again for your post.

Karraster · Dec 25, 2014

Dear brother, I'm glad you've shared some background, it's my belief that as children of the Most High one of our "commissions" in life is to comfort one another. What a merciful instruction we have received! for what man can help another without having helped himself? So, I think this thread you started is opportunity to give and receive "hope". What is hope? Some say they hope to win the lottery. Is that hope? No. That's wishful thinking. Hope is explained this way in Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Have you noticed how the adversary uses distraction at times to deceive us? His goal is to keep our minds on things that have no value. Birthdays, for instance, we all have 1. Let that sink in....we have 1, not 1 every year! My intent is not to rebuke you my brother, merely to point out how undesired things seem especially cruel when they happen on the anniversary of when we were born. Why is that? Many people I have encountered over the years have let a fond attachment to the day they were born breed falsehoods of which the most popular "they don't love me they forgot my birthday, they don't care!" Likewise, the loss of a loved one on that day can open the door to thoughts of despair, revisited every year. One of my brothers died suddenly from a heart attack, age 50, on my Mom's 80th birthday.
**********************************************************************************

John11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Does this speak to eternity? Can anyone say, all who have been born of a woman have a beginning , yet has no end? For there is One who is self existing without beginning or end, and His creations have been made/created by/for Him, He alone has power to grant eternal life. I conclude we are not eternal by reason of being birthed, (we do not self exist) yet we hope for the promise, as our Messiah states here, (of a future day) when we "trade" this corruptible body for an incorruptible body, where the adversary would that we cherish the ragged tent we have now, not seeing the mansion that awaits all who persevere. Reference to "never die"(John 11:26) is not the same (imo) as "not sleep" which we do sometimes call death. If we could think of it as...moving day!

Messiah did drink that cup, that is finished. He is the "first born" of the brethren, and has taken the position and responsibilities of firstborn. I find it is particularly helpful to study what firstborn means in Hebrew culture, and the examples of firstborn in scripture.

He is the author and finisher of our faith, He has begun a work in us, and only He knows when that work is complete. The world is full of deception, we sometimes think feelings are facts, it's part of being human. Paul is so encouraging, don't you think? I love what Messiah revealed through Paul in chapter 4 of Corinthians.

(a snippet)8-12 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

Peace and grace to you brother~k

DiscipleDave · Dec 25, 2014

DiscipleDave said:

Chopper said:

This is what the Bible teaches. The first death is that of the flesh, the second death is that of the Spirit, yet it is not the death of the spirit, but death in that that spirit is separated from God for all eternity.

Scriptures plainly teach, you either go to Heaven for all eternity or you go to Hell for all eternity, everlasting punishment the Bible calls it. Either way Heaven or Hell, they are eternal. The flesh dies, the spirit even though it experiences death from God, Love. still lives on, in Hell with satan and his followers to forever be tormented by the lack of His LOVE and His presence.
The Spirit that is in you will either end up in Heaven for all eternity, or end up in Hell for an everlasting punishment. That is Scriptural brother.

Chopper said:

Destroying and dead are two entirely different things. Scriptural evidence of this, is it is written that the Earth abideth forever, it is also written that the Earth will be destroyed, and we will have a New Earth. just because it is destroyed, does not mean it is dead, or ceases to exist. God can destroy a soul, that is to say the spirit that is within a person, and He does that by allowing that person to spend eternity in everlasting punishment, because they are fairly judged to be put there. So then what i have said above is True. The Spirit is immortal and can't be killed, destroyed, yes. Killed, NO. The spirit that is within you will live for eternity, either in Heaven, or not in Heaven.

^i^

DiscipleDave · Dec 25, 2014

Yahshua said:

All flesh shall die, it is from the Earth and will return to dust, click on my website below, click the article Where After Death? The Two who were taken will still die in the flesh. The two witness that are yet to come, will have their Spirits within them. Even as John the Baptist had the the Spirit of elijah in him.
When Christ comes for the Church, the day He shows up all those who died prior to that point and were SAVED, wake from their sleep and rise from their resting place and go to be with Jesus in the Air. Also at this time those who are alive and are judged to be True Christians, the Spirit that is in them immediately comes out of the body, and that flesh is dead. The person dies and the Spirit becomes as the Angels are. When Christ shows up the alive Christians their flesh will immediately die. For flesh and blood will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. but the Spirit that is in you, and is you, will come out of that flesh, and receive from Jesus their NEW Body, that of like the Angels of God and Jesus. Glorified bodies, NOT flesh from the Earth, but flesh from the Kingdom of Heaven.

Yahshua said:

They do die? It is appointed for all men to die in the flesh, there is no escaping that Truth. And even though Enoch and Elijah have not tasted the death of their human bodies, they will yet to come. The Group you are referring to, i believe your talking about the SAVED at the time of Jesus Return, they will die as well. The Spirit that is in them will be ripped out of the flesh that currently holds them. Flesh is nothing but a shell that holds the spirit that is in us.

Yahshua said:

Again, All flesh made from the Earth will return to the dust in which it came. Only the Spiritual flesh is immortal, the physical flesh is temporal. but a vapor of smoke. The entire human race will have been in existence for merely a week Heaven Standard Time.

^i^

Butch5 · Dec 25, 2014

Yahshua said:

I agree, the word atonement has also changed over time. The original meaning is to make "at one." When Adam sinned mankind fell under the sway of the Devil. Man needed to be redeemed and this is what Christ did, He redeemed mankind. This ransom payment made man "at one" again with God. However, man still sins, this is where forgiveness comes into play. The Scriptures speak of forgiveness again and again.

The Classic view is really much more than can be explained easily in a few posts. There is a good book on the subject and I can't recall the title. I can get it for you when I get home this weekend. However, I have written a paper on the subject of the Atonement where I compare the three views, the Classic (original), the Satifcation, and the Penal, the latter two of which were later additions to the faith. If you are interested you can find that paper here, "The Atonement."

DiscipleDave · Dec 25, 2014

JesusistheChrist said:

Scriptures are True, no man or woman for that matter has gone up to Heaven, Jesus is the only one who has done that. Nowhere does it say Enoch or Elijah went to Heaven, only teaches they did not taste death in the physical body. They sleep, and will rise when God awakes them to once again fulfill His plan.

^i^

DiscipleDave · Dec 25, 2014

DiscipleDave said:

ForthAngel said:

No, it is not. i have read the book of Mormon, it does not teach this. i have read the Qur'an, it does not say that either, i have read the teaching of Buddah, Hinduism, they do not say that either. i have read all the apocrypha, they too do not teach that. i have read the entire Bible over 80 times and it most certainly confirms what i have said above, and not one verse contradicts it. But the source where i go the information, is not from all my reading, nor from my own understanding, my own logic, my own thinking, or my own interpretations, it came from God.

Woe to anyone who says something comes from God and it does not come from God, how will that person escape the wrath of God for such a wicked thing to do. But i tell you the Truth, what i teach comes from Him who told me these things. Let all the diseases of the world come upon me if i am lying. Not my fault that this generation lacks Faith, and does not believe God speaks to people any more. But i have not failed to tell you the Truth, and knowing it will not be received by this generation, it still pleases Him that i teach His Truths. What is it to me, if you accept it or not? i merely teach what He tell me to.

^i^

JesusistheChrist · Dec 26, 2014

DiscipleDave said:

"Scriptures plainly teach" no such thing.

No Christian will "go to Heaven for all eternity" as Heaven is merely an intermediary place where the righteous dead go until the time comes that Christ returns to establish the kingdom of God RIGHT HERE ON EARTH. You know, "thy kingdom COME, thy will be done IN EARTH as it is in heaven" and all that. Yes, contrary to what you stated, "the meek shall inherit THE EARTH".

oldthennew · Dec 26, 2014

Yahshua,

you are definitely a 'thinker', and my wife and I enjoy your thought process
and your unself-consciencious seeking of our Father's truths.

your manner is refreshing, as you never seem to put yourself above others.

our approach to solving Spiritual Knowledge is to go to the most simplistic
scriptures, start there, and make sure that we have the foundation to
begin our journey for a deeper knowledge and understanding.

1Tim.6:16.
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;
whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

we know from this scripture that Christ only has immorality, so that would 'exclude'
Moses, Elijah, Enoch, and any other fleshly being.
one of the most important principles is that one scripture cannot disannul another,
otherwise we have confusion.

in the transfiguration where Moses and Elijah appear, the text plainly says,
'tell no man of the vision', and vision by definition is a future event.

the original LIE from satan is that, 'you shall not surely die' - yet, ALL flesh dies,
'for the wages of sin is death - and all have sinned'.
there are so many variations of the GREAT LIE, and it is all through -
'world religion and Christianity is certainly not excluded -
(reincarnation-the happy hunting grounds-the seventy virgins-you die and
immediately go to heaven or hell, this is a message that we 'really don't die'...

we must be cautious always in interpretation, for instance the account of Elijah
being taken to heaven in a whirlwind, if you look up the definition of heaven,
it can be interpreted in (3)ways.

we hope that we have helped you in some way, and we surely look forward
to more of your posts.

dcontroversal · Dec 26, 2014

DiscipleDave said:

2nd Kings 2:1, 11

And it came to pass when the Lord would TAKE up Elijah into HEAVEN by a whirlwind......

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and parted them asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirl wind INTO HEAVEN.

There is no contradiction as Jesus said that no man has ASCENDED into HEAVEN

Key words....

ASCEND<--Jesus uses
TAKE, went<--applied unto Elijah

Where was Elijah TAKEN.....INTO HEAVEN!

eternally-gratefull · Dec 26, 2014

Yahshua said:

What type of death is the question.

1. Adam died the moment he sinned
2. We are said to be (already) dead, as we are in adam
3. Jesus said we who are dead, must be born again (made alive) in Christ.
4. Scripture says we must be born again.

Physical death is a result of sin, as is sickness, and disease, these bodied started to die the moment sin entered the world. as has the world around us.

Spiritual death (separation from God) is the penalty of sin. Christ suffered this while on the cross. as he said, My God My God why have you departed (forsaken) from me. Physical death did not occure until after he said "it is finished" the price for sin had already been suffered.

this makes no sense whatsoever. Jesus paid the penalty 2000 years ago. if he only paid for some. then all sin committed after his death would be left unpaid. And we would all be lost in our sin, Because the only thing which could help us is to go back to animal sacrifice, but as hebrews said, this never took away sin, so there would be no forgiveness for anyone who sinned a sin Christ did not pay for. unless Christ came back and died again. This is also what the law teaches.

It is only double jeopardy if physical death was the ultimate penalty for sin, it was not, it was just one of the byproducts, Man was never intended to die, he was created a eternal being. just in a physical body.

Again, Adam died the moment he sinned, we know this because the things of God became foolish to him, he could not understand them.

We all all said to be (present tense) dead in adam, for as in adam all die (spiritually) even though in Christ shall all be made alive (born again)

Paul even says, we who were dead (spiritually) in trespasses and sin, were made alive (spiritually) in Christ.

When God says eternal life, that is the life he is talking about, we who were separated from God (spiritually dead) were made alive in Christ, and this life is called to last forever (eternal life)

again, ye must be born again, because your dead if you have not been born again, even though your physically alive.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 26, 2014

Yahshua said:

according to scripture two OT men never died physically God took them to heaven, so how was their sin penalty paid if physical death is the penalty?

Death...The Price of Sin...Paid?

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