did Christ retrun in AD 70? Matthew 24

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

meecha

Guest
The parable is the key here. The "fig tree" is Israel. The generation that see's Israel come into existence again will not pass before the Son of God returns. In other words, His return is very near.
if the fig tree is Israel then why did Jesus curse it?
 

Ibe

Banned
Apr 29, 2012
78
0
0
MEECHA

YOU SAID: So I do not misunderstand you IMINJC where exactly do you get from the text that Jesus stops talking about the temple then standing and start talking about a future temple?The text says the disciples " came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. " Its refers to the temple then standing...where did Jesus take the discussion of that temple to that of a future temple....please can you show this in the text?

Yes I will...As I said, Jesus had already made it very clear that Herod's Temple was coming down during the disciples generation and he had given the reasons why it was coming down. When Jesus began to answer the disciples questions in Matthew 24:4 he addressed the disciples second question "What is the sign of your coming." All the signs that he gives in Matthew 24 are signs of his "coming" not of the destruction of Herod's Temple. Since there was no visible return of Jesus as is stated in Matthew 24 during the disciples generation, we must conclude that the signs given in Matthew 24 have yet to be fulfilled.

Now concerning the future Temple..... When Jesus made the following statement in Matthew 24:15...

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

He deferred all authority over to Daniel on the subject of "The Abomination of Desolation" which is found in Daniel 9 when he gives his 70 weeks prophecy; I like the fact that it then states "whoever reads let him understand." Jesus wanted his disciples in that generation as well as his disciples in future generations to understand what is written there about this event, because it is a key "sign" that would indicate that his second physical and visible return to earth is closer than close.

In Daniels 70 weeks prophecy he says that a foreigner who the scripture refers to as the "prince" will cause the sacrifices at the Temple to cease, then he will set up an image in a wing of the Temple to be worshiped. This is the abomination that will bring desolation to that future holy city of Jerusalem and the future Temple. I say future because nothing even remotely close to Daniels prophecy occured during the disciples generation...and since the destruction of Herod's Temple, there has never been another Temple errected in it's place to fulfill what is written in the Book of Daniel. That's why it has to be a future Tmple built in Jerusalem. So Herod's Temple in Matthew 23 is an entirely different Temple than the one that Daniel talks about in the Book of Daniel.

Well now,
Brothers and Sisters
there is only seven events that bring on Jesus Christ 2nd comming Revelation record's them
on 666, Michael will boot Satan out and defacto in the sight of Men, the antichrist "Satan" will apearon Mt zion claimming to the real Jesus, its the falling away, its the Apostysee spoken by Daniel, Because Many will be Decieved, and go and worship him, Take Heed. Two in the Field One Taken One Left. If they say I'm over here dont beleave them ."Jesus warnning" Stay and do our Father's will Fight , Sound the alarm

Go with 2 Thessalonians 2

Listen to Paul's warning

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

ask for understanding, 6 comes befor 7

"Ibe"
"Ibe a Disciple of Jesus Christ"
"Ibe In His Service"
 
H

Hurricane1

Guest
if the fig tree is Israel then why did Jesus curse it?
He did not curse the fig tree in the parable, for one. But, He did predict the demise of Israel on other text as judgement for their rejection of the Son of God. But, if you do your research, Israel has always been refered to as the fig tree.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
If the fig tree is truly Israel, then the Dispy hopes for a rebuilt temple are out the window, because...


18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

He tells the fig tree...MAY YOU NEVER BEAR FRUIT AGAIN..

How can a nation that's been told it will never bear fruit again, how can it rebuild some temple?

Can't have it both ways dispy friends.
 
H

Hurricane1

Guest
If the fig tree is truly Israel, then the Dispy hopes for a rebuilt temple are out the window, because...


18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

He tells the fig tree...MAY YOU NEVER BEAR FRUIT AGAIN..

How can a nation that's been told it will never bear fruit again, how can it rebuild some temple?

Can't have it both ways dispy friends.
Well, Israel does exist again, how do you explain that in light of what you said? The corner stone of the new temple is already been honed, how do you explain that in light of what you said?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
My take on matt 24, and comparing with daniel 9:

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

We have a few things here.

1. They knew jesus would return.
2. They knew when he would return. "At the end of the age"
3. They were asking what signs they (and we) could look for as to when this time would be drawing near.

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

This is the most important part here.Jesus is answering them as to what the signs will be;One thing to note here. I believe these things will progresivly get worst as the time approaches for the signs of the end of the "age" Also note. I do not believe the end of the "Age" is the end of the world. just the age we are in now.

1. Many will come in the name of Christ at this time, in other words, their will be many so called "churches" formed which claim to be teaching in the name of Christ.
2. wars and rumors of wars,. It is important to note that jesus is speaking of MANY wars and rumors. It is also important to understand that Jesus, being God, understood his words would be written down and included in scripture. thus he was talking to all of us, not just these men, also note, these wars and rumors of wars are not concerning just isreal, but the world, which is proven in the next statement.
3. Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. This proves many things. first off as I said, Jesus was not just talking about Isreal, but the whole world. Second, that the things jesus said would not take place in their lifetime. There was one kingdom in their lifetime, Rome. and no nation rose against them in war in the disciples lifetime. They were most likely all dead by the time 70 AD rolled around and thier city was destroyed, meaning these "wars and rumors of wars and nation rising against nation and kingdom rising against kingdom in these wars could not possibly have happened before 70 AD, but would happen many many years following 70 AD.

finally, Jesus said you will see Famines, pestilences (disease) and earthquakes in VARIUS places. meaning it is not just religates as usual to certain areas of the world. but it increases in nature and spreads throughout the whole world. Again proving he is not just talking about Isreal here.

As I said earlier, I believed these things swould increase in severity and number as the "age draws near" now lets look at history.

1. The false churches. Thanks to rome, there were not many people who would or could come in the name of Christ being false prophets. In fact, it was not really until the last 100 years or so that MANY MANY churches have started in the name of Christ, in fact it grows more and more every day, and is getting worst.
2. Wars and rumors. Again rome was the main power for man many years after 70 AD. and even after, nation and kingdom did rise. but look at the last hundred years. 2 world wars. and many many smaller wars, it gets worst and more frequent as we speak.
3. Famines. I believe this is getting worste as starvation is rampant, in fact even in "rich countrys" many people starve and I do not see it getting any better but worst
4. Disease. How many new diseases which are incurable have we seen in our lifetimes alone? disease such as aids, and bacteria which are not killed by antibioticks, again this is getting worst every day,
5. natural disasters. Just look at the news, the major earthquakes, floods, tornadoes etc etc which have happened with increased ferosity and number in the last ten years alone.

Yet with all of this, what did Jesus say?

"the end is not yet, but this is just the beginning of sorrows. Many people call them birth pangs, or the signs that something worst is going to happen. lets continue.

continued...

 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
9 “THEN they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

To start here we must look at a word. "THEN" in other words, after all these things happen, which is just the beginning of sorrows. the following will happen.

1 tribulation against gods people, what will this tribulation consist of?

Murder, hate, betrayal, even by those we are close to and our families,

2, Many false prophets. (different from false christians, as this does not say thery come in the name of Christ, but just prophets.)

3. Huge increase in lawlessness (think of the time before the flood). Selfishness abounds, as the love of others grows cold. it is all about self.

4. Gospel taught to ALL nations as a witness (still has not happened)

and then the warning, Whoever endures to the end of this time period will be saved (physical salvation not eternal. )

this is a time of great tribulation. it is at the end of this, that Christ will returns.

jesus goes on with another warning which speaks of this time.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),


think of thje time frame, After the wars an desolations (dan 9) after the wars and rumors of wars, the increase of hunger, disease and natural disasters, (matt 24) after these "birth pangs, or beginning of sorrows", there will be an abomination of desolation occure (dan 9 with matt 24) at which time we see a sign, the greatest sign we need to look for. for what will happen then?

16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Jesus already spoke of tribulation against his people. now he speaks of a great tribulation against the whole world. Such as has never been seen before, or will never be seen after. In other words, 70 AD, WW1, WW2 will seem like walks in the park when compaired to this time. This time will not only be far worst than those disasters, but it will be the most dangerous time this world has ever seen. why?

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

for the first time in the history of the world. Mankind has the ability to wipe itself off the face of the earth. Jesus makes it clear, so no one should have no excuse as to what he is saying, and we can all see it. God has to cut this time short. for if he did not, NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED, period!

finally, after all these things happens. Christ answers the last question. (when will be the time of your comming"

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

the end of this "tribulation period" will be marked by the comming of Christ in the clouds, the wiping out of the armies of the earth who are at war with Gods people.

so we see, Christ gave them the answers..

the signs, first the beginning signs, then the major signs,

The time of his comming, At the end of this great tribulation.
 
I

IMINJC

Guest
eternally-greatful



Excellent posting! Really enjoyed reading that opinion, very refreshing and good sound doctrine.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
Well, Israel does exist again, how do you explain that in light of what you said? The corner stone of the new temple is already been honed, how do you explain that in light of what you said?
You miss the point my dear friend.

If you say that the fig tree that was cursed is Israel, and if Jesus said that tree will never bear fruit again, then it follows that, in YOUR reasoning, that the temple/Israel can never exist again, seeing Jesus cursed them and said they never would bear fruit again.

You assert Israel, the temple and all that is yet to come, yet you also assert that said cursed fig tree is also Israel, said fig tree which Jesus said would never bear fruit again.

How can Israel/the fig tree, come back again, if Jesus said it wouldn't bear fruit again?

I'm addressing YOUR line of thinking. This is the predicament YOU face.
 
I

IMINJC

Guest
1still-Waters


YOU SAID: How can a nation that's been told it will never bear fruit again, how can it rebuild some temple?


Preterist believers before 1948 used to say the same thing..."How can a nation that's been told it will never bear fruit again, how can it exist as a nation again?" They kept saying that until Isarel was re-established as a nation in 1948. Then they started saying what you just did..."How can a nation that's been told it will never bear fruit again, how can it rebuild some temple?"...and when Israel recaptured the temple mount in 1967 it is now just a matter of time that they will rebuild the temple so that the prophecies can be fulfilled.




 
1

1still_waters

Guest
1still-Waters


YOU SAID: How can a nation that's been told it will never bear fruit again, how can it rebuild some temple?


Preterist believers before 1948 used to say the same thing..."How can a nation that's been told it will never bear fruit again, how can it exist as a nation again?" They kept saying that until Isarel was re-established as a nation in 1948. Then they started saying what you just did..."How can a nation that's been told it will never bear fruit again, how can it rebuild some temple?"...and when Israel recaptured the temple mount in 1967 it is now just a matter of time that they will rebuild the temple so that the prophecies can be fulfilled.




For some reason the Dispies think I'm arguing for their side.

I'm simply showing the logical outcome of their assertion if they say Israel is the fig tree.

The LOGICAL outcome of saying the fig tree is Israel, is that it can NEVER bear fruit again, since Jesus said that.

For some reason you Dispies think I'M asking how Israel can exist again.

I'M NOT ASKING THAT.

I'm saying that to point to YOU DISPIES, the logical outcome of your argument, so you can see how contradictory it is.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
And there is NO prophecy about a rebuilt temple.

There is a prophecy about the temple that got destroyed in ad 70, but there is NO and I repeat NO prophecy of a future rebuilt temple.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
a small note here concerning the temple.

Isreal would not rebuild it if they had recieved christ, they would know the temple is not how they get right with god. they rebuild the temple because they are still in sin and denial.

so the fig tree and temple component does not make sense.

also note. It is the tribulation after the temple is defiled (or time of jacobs trouble and other things it is called) which causes severe persecution of the woman (isreal) and her offspirng) the church) which causes Isreal to repent and finally realise Christ was her messiah. and at this time, she will be grafted back in and "all Isreal will be saved" romans 11
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
And there is NO prophecy about a rebuilt temple.

There is a prophecy about the temple that got destroyed in ad 70, but there is NO and I repeat NO prophecy of a future rebuilt temple.


I agree with you. But it can be assumed, If the abomination can be proven to have not yet occured (which I think it has) then their must be a temple to commit the abomination in must there not??
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
For some reason the Dispies think I'm arguing for their side.

I'm simply showing the logical outcome of their assertion if they say Israel is the fig tree.

The LOGICAL outcome of saying the fig tree is Israel, is that it can NEVER bear fruit again, since Jesus said that.

For some reason you Dispies think I'M asking how Israel can exist again.

I'M NOT ASKING THAT.

I'm saying that to point to YOU DISPIES, the logical outcome of your argument, so you can see how contradictory it is.
I do not understand what you mean here. what is illogical? that Isreal as a nation will never exist again? Romans 11 and many many OT prophesies would contradict this argument.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
I do not understand what you mean here. what is illogical? that Isreal as a nation will never exist again? Romans 11 and many many OT prophesies would contradict this argument.
When Jesus cursed the fig tree, he said it would NEVER bear fruit again.

If you say the fig tree is Israel, and Jesus cursed it, and said it would NEVER bear fruit again, then it's illogical to say Israel will come back again.

That is the predicament Dispies find themselves in when they say that the cursed fig tree is Israel, yet also say that Israel will come back again.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
When Jesus cursed the fig tree, he said it would NEVER bear fruit again.

If you say the fig tree is Israel, and Jesus cursed it, and said it would NEVER bear fruit again, then it's illogical to say Israel will come back again.

That is the predicament Dispies find themselves in when they say that the cursed fig tree is Israel, yet also say that Israel will come back again.
what fig tree cursing are you speaking of. I see no cursing of a fig tree in matt 24.
 
H

Hurricane1

Guest
You miss the point my dear friend.

If you say that the fig tree that was cursed is Israel, and if Jesus said that tree will never bear fruit again, then it follows that, in YOUR reasoning, that the temple/Israel can never exist again, seeing Jesus cursed them and said they never would bear fruit again.

You assert Israel, the temple and all that is yet to come, yet you also assert that said cursed fig tree is also Israel, said fig tree which Jesus said would never bear fruit again.

How can Israel/the fig tree, come back again, if Jesus said it wouldn't bear fruit again?

I'm addressing YOUR line of thinking. This is the predicament YOU face.
Please go back and read again, I never asserted that the fig tree that Jesus cursed was Israel... you did. All I said is that the fig tree in the parable was a representation of Israel today.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
I agree with you. But it can be assumed, If the abomination can be proven to have not yet occured (which I think it has) then their must be a temple to commit the abomination in must there not??[/B][/COLOR]
No he said THAT temple that THEY saw. Everything in this passage is linked to THAT temple. He's speaking to them when he says...

Luke 21

5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

That happened in 70 ad and everything in this passage is linked to the time period this happened in.

Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled


The YOU SEE is linked to the THESE THINGS.

He wasn't speaking of a future temple, because he was pointing to the temple that existed THEN.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
If the fig tree is truly Israel, then the Dispy hopes for a rebuilt temple are out the window, because...


18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

He tells the fig tree...MAY YOU NEVER BEAR FRUIT AGAIN..

How can a nation that's been told it will never bear fruit again, how can it rebuild some temple?

Can't have it both ways dispy friends.
OK I see it.

18 Now in the morning, as He returned to the city, He was hungry. 19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away.
The Lesson of the Withered Fig Tree

20 And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, “How did the fig tree wither away so soon?”
21 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done. 22 And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”


I see nothing here that would show the fig tree represented isreal. It was a lesson to the disciples. Jesus had faith the fig tree would wither, he proved this faith the the disciples. And then said they could do things like he did to the fig tree. all they needed was faith.


if some dispies are saying this fig tree represents Isreal, they would be mistaking.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.