Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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how is defining the human spirit dismissing it?
That would depend on whether the claim is that the spirit is indeed, either currently defacto dead or literally and currently dead, I suppose.

But there is no, "Today" for the literally dead, to hear or even respond, i.e. while it is daylight before the night comes and no one can 'work.'
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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It is imperative that we engage our spirit with The Spirit in order to hear and respond to His Word. Our spirit is what The Spirit witnesses to. He doesn't make appeal to our flesh.
In fact, He crucified it!
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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If Jesus died for a few then that would be unfair to the rest of the people!! NO Jesus died for ALL people! ALL people make the choice! To BELIEVE OR NOT to BELIEVE! Remember!!! (Acts 10:34 and Romanas 2:11-16!!)
Music to my ears!!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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It is imperative that we engage our spirit with The Spirit in order to hear and respond to His Word. Our spirit is what The Spirit witnesses to. He doesn't make appeal to our flesh.
In fact, He crucified it!
Has Jesus not reconciled us to God through His own crucifixion? While we were yet dead in our trespasses and sins God made us alive in Christ. That's a paraphrase cause I'm on my phone...
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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Has Jesus not reconciled us to God through His own crucifixion? wWe don't do it. While we were yet dead in our trespasses and sins God made us alive and Christ. That's a paraphrase cause I'm on my phone...
He has reconciled all flesh in His Son's death, it will not suffer forever but will be humanely put down, for lack of a better analogy in its rabidity (and here I am making insinuation to subspecies but I want to be clear that God did not lay down His Son's life for dogs). But there remains the judgment of the spirit. I believe this is what is dealt with in the final judgment (what "it" did in your body, the temporal chance given to do anything and primarily the only chance to 'cleave' to His Spirit for eternal life).
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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He has reconciled all flesh in His Son's death, it will not suffer forever but will be humanely put down, for lack of a better analogy in its rabidity (and here I am making insinuation to subspecies but I want to be clear that God did not lay down His Son's life for dogs). But there remains the judgment of the spirit. I believe this is what is dealt with in the final judgment (what "it" did in your body, the temporal chance given to do anything and primarily the only chance to 'cleave' to His Spirit for eternal life).
I don't really know what you mean to refer to a subspecies of human...
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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I don't really know what you mean to refer to a subspecies of human...
This is how I view the ideological interpretation of the elect as being predestined for salvation in Christ rather than the predestination of the elect as those that believe in Christ for salvation. It is a so close miss that it is too easily accepted as reality, but it misses with the same as advising other to believe in Zeus.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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This is how I view the ideological interpretation of the elect as being predestined for salvation in Christ rather than the predestination of the elect as those that believe in Christ for salvation. It is a so close miss that it is too easily accepted as reality, but it misses with the same as advising other to believe in Zeus.
I see.. well, the unbelieving heart is described as evil. I am at work so can't resoond in a timely manner...
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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I see.. well, the unbelieving heart is described as evil. I am at work so can't resoond in a timely manner...
Persisting in unbelief generates a hardened heart in light of God's appeal to return to Him, since He does so through His love. Rejecting a loving father by mischaracterizing Him as a selfish tyrant that care nothing for you is evil, indeed.
I have to go, but I'm not mad at nor am I 'trying to devour' anyone. lol.
 

MerSee

Active member
Jan 13, 2024
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If Jesus died for a few then that would be unfair to the rest of the people!! NO Jesus died for ALL people! ALL people make the choice! To BELIEVE OR NOT to BELIEVE! Remember!!! (Acts 10:34 and Romanas 2:11-16!!)
Jesus died for the elect who are ultimately correct believers in Him.
 

MerSee

Active member
Jan 13, 2024
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Why do you think HeIsHere actually believes atonement for the elect is limited? :oops:
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Persisting in unbelief generates a hardened heart in light of God's appeal to return to Him, since He does so through His love. Rejecting a loving father by mischaracterizing Him as a selfish tyrant that care nothing for you is evil, indeed.
I have to go, but I'm not mad at nor am I 'trying to devour' anyone. lol.
Well I guess we have both seen those who characterize God as being an unjust tyrant Who kidnaps people against their so-called "free will" because He acts unilaterally to quicken them to life so that they may love Him as He does them... Oh and I don't know why you're saying all that about being mad or trying to devour anyone because I don't believe I have or would ever say those things about you !!! much love to you my sister in Christ 🥰
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Yes it is at its core gnostic, brought in by Augustine.

Augustine is the first in Christian history to introduce the concepts and idea that for example no one can respond positively to the gospel appeal unless they've been regenerated first this concept/idea that God has to choose you or elect you started in the fifth century.
Not true about him being the "first" Christian. The Doctrines of Grace are taught throughout the bible by the inspired writers chosen by God to record his Truth.

Now, I have a question or two for you, sir: Is there any record anywhere in the world, or in the bible, of the physically dead (souls that have separated from their bodies) having the ability to respond to natural stimuli? If not, then what would compel you to think that spiritually dead (souls separated from the Spirit of Life) would have any ability to respond to spiritual stimuli?

Secondly, Is there any record anywhere in the world, or in the bible, of the physically resurrected asking to be raised from the dead prior to their death? If not, then what would make you think that spiritual resurrection is a result of someone "asking Jesus into his heart", or someone "praying the sinner's prayer". or someone "walking an aisle", or praying to God for forgiveness, etc? If the physically dead are in fact raised solely by God's sovereign will and his bestowal of the gift of life into a dead body, then why would it be any different with the gift of eternal that God freely and sovereignly gives through Jesus to whomever he pleases (1Pet 3:7; Rom 6:23; Jn 5:21)?

When it comes down to brass tacks, the bible seems to use many more similes than "mere" metaphors. The latter is "a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance". Whereas the former is actually stronger and more accurately depicts what often is going on in scripture: The comparison of two unlike things! Similes, therefore, have a strong paradoxical sense that attaches to them; for by definition a "simile" is: "a figure of speech comparing two unlike things". And this is precisely what we have going on with the Doctrine (dare I say it at the risk of using a "worldly" word?) of the Resurrection. Physical resurrection consists of raising the seen, physical dead to temporary new life; whereas spiritual resurrection consists of raising the unseen, spiritual dead to new life eternal. And in both cases the Dead contribute nothing, zip, nada, bupkis, to their restored life.

Personally...methinks Augustine was right on! At least he didn't try to perform great feats of mental gymnastics or torture logic or ignore scripture to formulate his understanding of biblical doctrine.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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The Doctrines of Grace are taught throughout the bible by the inspired writers chosen by God to record his Truth.
Calvinists always say this,

but in reality TULIP is not in scripture, BUT if one takes verses out of context and strings them together as a bunch of proof texts then scripture is being interpreted apart from proper hermeneutics it seems like it is there when it is not.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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We are not talking about physically dead.

As was explained by @cv5 "dead/die" in Genesis means separated.
And what in the world do you think physical death is if not the separation of the soul from the body? Have you never read:

Luke 12:20
20 But God said to him, 'Fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?'

ESV
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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And what in the world do you think physical death is if not the separation of the soul from the body? Have you never read:

Luke 12:20
20 But God said to him, 'Fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?'

ESV
Words have a range of meanings depending on the context.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Calvinists always say this,

but in reality TULIP is not in scripture, BUT if one takes verses out of context and strings them together as a bunch of proof texts then scripture is being interpreted apart from proper hermeneutics it seems like it is there when it is not.
TULIP is not in scripture is systematic form, but is in many other forms.

And if IF and BUTs were candy and nuts, everyday would Christmas.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Words have a range of meanings depending on the context.
So, you're disputing what physical death is? What do you think it is? In the Lukian passage, God did not say that the fool's body would be required of him -- but his soul. Do you dispute that in the parable Jesus was speaking of the man's imminent death?