Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[PaulThomson]

NKJ 2Thess 2:19-14 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


From our fairly brief exposure to one another, IMO you seem to value understanding what Scripture says and means and you don't seem to be tied down to any particular theological camp. I'll leave it to you to correct me if/where I may be wrong.

How do you read what the above says and means?

I'll start by noting that the "call" is by means of the Gospel - Paul's and his associates' Gospel. So, if the Gospel is to be given to all, then all are called, which can be at minimum as simple as "invited" or more legally formal as "summoned."

So, how does "chose" work?

I was responding to the calvinist concept of people being chosen for entry into the process of salvation through regeneration.
But you are right. Salvation per se covers the process from hearing God speak (through creation, the church and the Spirit) to resurrection in a body conformed to Christ's glorious body. If one is considering the process following regeneration that brings one to the adoption, i.e. the redemption of the body, then those saved stage one are indeed "chosen for salvation", namely the subsequent salvation stage two (the renewing of the mind and the increasing subjection of the unglorified body to the Spirit) and salvation stage three (the physical body being clothed upon with a heavenly body and immortality). Stage two salvation entails doing the works God has prepared for us to do each day, so being chosen for salvation, that being chosen for stage two salvation, equates to being chosen to a particular role of service to God.

 

[MerSee]

Of course atheism exists!! smh I said your argument supports their POV.




No, you utterly deny the plain text of Scripture!! You're no one that should be teaching anyone anything! You're as confused as a termite in a yo-yo.




I believe what the Word says. It says while we were still sinners, He loved us. It says salvation is for all. Anything different than that is a lie from the pit of hell. I don't care WHO taught it, it's a flat out lie and false doctrine.



Another lie from the pit of hell. God doesn't send anyone to hell. "For the wages of sin is death", if we continue in sin, we will end up in hell. Every person who ends up in Hell is there because of their own decision to reject God’s offer of salvation. God cannot be blamed for the decisions of man. C.S. Lewis put it this way, “No one will ever go to Heaven deservingly and no one will ever go to Hell unwillingly.”
Jesus says, “‘Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven’




You've chosen to believe a lie in spite of everything Scripture says. I have never seen a person so lost who believes they are right. It's in black and white in front of you and you still deny what the Word says. You're believing a false doctrine. The pity is it's taken such a violent hold on you I don't know if you will ever see the truth.For your sake, I hope you do.

Those who ultimately deny the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ go to hell and you don't seem to care that they refuse to believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[studier]

I was responding to the calvinist concept of people being chosen for entry into the process of salvation through regeneration.

Apology for jumping in midstream, but it looked like a good opportunity to wring something out and to test the calvinist concept of election.

Just to be clear and simple, how do you read "salvation" here? Using for simplicity, 1, 2, 3 for the 3 phases of the salvation process identified by some, if not many, what phase(s) do you see "salvation" referring to in 2Thes2:13 (noting my typo in the opening verse references)?

 

[studier]

I was responding to the calvinist concept of people being chosen for entry into the process of salvation through regeneration

Just wanted to add that this is the next of the 3 NC uses of haireō (transliterated) that I tapped off of you earlier and began looking at and discussing.

 

[Cameron143]

PaulThomson said:
Does scripture say anywhere that anyone is chosen by God for salvation? it seems to me to say God chooses people for roles of service.

SO, apparently, your, answer equates to: "No, I read that into the text "

So, where is the scripture that says someone is chosen for salvation? or rather, for entry level salvation; that is, chosen to be given ears that listen, and understanding, and faith o believe what God is saying to them, so as to be reckoned righteous by God.



Apostles and prophets are chosen in Him . Does that mean all are chosen in Him are chosen to serve as apostles and prophets?

I'm sure you are familiar with Ephesians 4:11.

 

[PaulThomson]

Apology for jumping in midstream, but it looked like a good opportunity to wring something out and to test the calvinist concept of election.

Just to be clear and simple, how do you read "salvation" here? Using for simplicity, 1, 2, 3 for the 3 phases of the salvation process identified by some, if not many, what phase(s) do you see "salvation" referring to in 2Thes2:13 (noting my typo in the opening verse references)?

NKJ 2Thess 2:19-14 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (complete the stage 1, stage 2 and stage 3 process of salvation) 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth (Did not enter stage one salvation) but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we (Paul, Silvanus and Timothy, 1:1) are bound to give thanks to God always for you, (the Thessalonian Christians) brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning (from the beginning of your faith in Christ; from your entry into the Kingdom through the regeneration of stage 1 salvation) chose you (at that time, as Thessalonian new-born believers at the time of God's choice) for salvation (the redemption of the body: stage 3 salvation) through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, (through the maturing work of discipleship in stage two salvation) 14 to which (stage two sanctification) He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. (in stage three salvation, the adoption as sons, the redemption of the body).

 

[Mem]

I was responding to the calvinist concept of people being chosen for entry into the process of salvation through regeneration.
But you are right. Salvation per se covers the process from hearing God speak (through creation, the church and the Spirit) to resurrection in a body conformed to Christ's glorious body. If one is considering the process following regeneration that brings one to the adoption, i.e. the redemption of the body, then those saved stage one are indeed "chosen for salvation", namely the subsequent salvation stage two (the renewing of the mind and the increasing subjection of the unglorified body to the Spirit) and salvation stage three (the physical body being clothed upon with a heavenly body and immortality). Stage two salvation entails doing the works God has prepared for us to do each day, so being chosen for salvation, that being chosen for stage two salvation, equates to being chosen to a particular role of service to God.

I'm going to assume that studier sees this similarly and, since I happen to fit the description I will also assume the invite to show where he may be wrong is open to me as well

salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

Broken down to clarify the modifiers:
God chose you
you for salvation
salvation through sanctification
sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (that He promises to finish what He has begun comes to mind here)

This is you believing in the truth and the Spirit 'shaking hands with you,' that is, saying, "I am your witness that you received the love of the truth." As for the rest of the mentioned context, notice the spirit in which the truth is offered, and it is this that you've actually received if you've actually received the truth. That is, if it doesn't love, then it is not the truth.
There is even love in this:
And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Note the contrast in terms used, between "that they all may be condemned" with "that they might be saved." Perhaps the distinction is muddied but I noted the distinction in terms for deeper thought nonetheless, in case it somehow might offer further insight that would help in clarifying the understanding of salvation.

 

[PaulThomson]

I'm sure you are familiar with Ephesians 4:11.

Yes.

 

[studier]

NKJ 2Thess 2:19-14 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (complete the stage 1, stage 2 and stage 3 process of salvation) 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth (Did not enter stage one salvation) but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we (Paul, Silvanus and Timothy, 1:1) are bound to give thanks to God always for you, (the Thessalonian Christians) brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning (from the beginning of your faith in Christ; from your entry into the Kingdom through the regeneration of stage 1 salvation) chose you (at that time, as Thessalonian new-born believers at the time of God's choice) for salvation (the redemption of the body: stage 3 salvation) through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, (through the maturing work of discipleship in stage two salvation) 14 to which (stage two sanctification) He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. (in stage three salvation, the adoption as sons, the redemption of the body).

Clearly stated. You've obviously considered the salvation "stages" before. Nice to see.

So, as I read you, God's choosing here is not for stage one, but for stage 3 through growth in stage 2.

Thanks! Will ponder a bit and compare it to how I viewed it some tears ago and view it now.

Appreciated!

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Those who ultimately deny the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ go to hell and you don't seem to care that they refuse to believe in Jesus Christ.

Point to me where I said that or stop posting to me. If you're not going to read what I say, don't bother me.

 

[studier]

I will also assume the invite to show where he may be wrong is open to me as well

Good assumption. Open to anyone whose agenda is simply to analyze what the Text actually says. It's not about any of us. It's simply about what the Text says and means and thus about conforming us to His thinking and to no one else's.

Broken down to clarify the modifiers:
God chose you
you for salvation
salvation through sanctification
sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

I'd ask you to look at your modifiers again. And what does "for" mean if you would elaborate?

FWIW, IMO this is one of those pieces of Scripture where very precise interpretation of the prepositions (eis & en & dia (v.14)) and the genitive phrases following "en" in v.13 a vital.

BTW, I like your "handshake" comment.

 

[Mem]

Good assumption. Open to anyone whose agenda is simply to analyze what the Text actually says. It's not about any of us. It's simply about what the Text says and means and thus about conforming us to His thinking and to no one else's.



I'd ask you to look at your modifiers again. And what does "for" mean if you would elaborate?

FWIW, IMO this is one of those pieces of Scripture where very precise interpretation of the prepositions (eis & en & dia (v.14)) and the genitive phrases following "en" in v.13 a vital.

BTW, I like your "handshake" comment.

I agree on the vital importance of even a two letter word. Even the smallest fray in a wire or blockage in a vessel has potential to shut down an entire system.

As for an elaboration on "for," considering all the possibilities in order to compare that which would best fit, the usually accepted meaning with that less likely to be the default, it becomes cleared if asked is questioned in this manner:
Is it salvation for you, or you for salvation? That is, is salvation given to you or are you given to salvation?

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes.

 

[HeIsHere]

What John Trapp should have stated....

 

[studier]

I agree on the vital importance of even a two letter word. Even the smallest fray in a wire or blockage in a vessel has potential to shut down an entire system.

As for an elaboration on "for," considering all the possibilities in order to compare that which would best fit, the usually accepted meaning with that less likely to be the default, it becomes cleared if asked is questioned in this manner:
Is it salvation for you, or you for salvation? That is, is salvation given to you or are you given to salvation?

Interesting thoughts. Thanks for expressing them.

I'm not attempting to teach you something as I continue. I'm rather letting you in on my processing for your understanding and potential reasoning.

The reason I asked the initial question is I for the most part begin as a basic literalist. So, I look for the range of meanings of words (even though some question when I don't agree with their views). And the first step if I really want to get back to the basics and contemplate from there is to just translate literally and outline the clause connections. I really cannot agree or disagree in finality with anyone unless and until I go through whatever level of detail I need to go through to get there.

• God chose you (plural)
  • into (eis) salvation
    • in (en) dedication/sanctification/holiness [of] S(s)pirit and
    • in (en) faith [of] truth
    • into (eis) which He called/summoned/invited you (plural)
      • through (dia) our Good News
      • into (eis) [a] preserving/gaining/possessing/possession (noun)
        • [of] glory
          • [of] our our Lord = Jesus Christ

Every one of these prepositions and insertions of "[of]" can be translated in different ways and depending on the chosen translation can mean something different. Even the words following {of] can be translated differently, e.g. "[a] preserving/gaining/possessing/ possession [of] glory - could be a "glorious possession" - so Paul is either saying we're going to possess glory of our Lord Jesus Christ (e.g. being in Christ) or we are our Lord Jesus Christ's glorious possession.

There are times in the Text where Spirit may be spirit.

Salvation as the three of us have looked at can be speaking about different phases/stages of salvation.

If the (en) clause (shown above as two (en) clauses) are tied to salvation as I've outlined it, then they are telling us something about salvation.

The same wording, "in (en) dedication/sanctification/holiness [of] S(s)pirit" is used in 2Pet1:1-2 and is tied to foreknowledge and in speaking of selected/chosen/elected [men] (adjective).

I don't see any temporal markers in the verbs "chose" or "called" to indicate any sequence.

IMO the "(en) dedication/sanctification/holiness [of] S(s)pirit and faith [of] truth" statement is likely very important and so is the sequence of the Gospel call/invitation.

Have some things to do...

 

[HeIsHere]

Point to me where I said that or stop posting to me. If you're not going to read what I say, don't bother me.

His doctrine is THE sound doctrine (he thinks it is anyway).

He is stating your (and mine, lol) doctrine is wrong and because it is wrong you do not care about people going to hell.

I think that is point.

it is a little weird since according to @MerSee only the "selected" can believe in Christ Jesus.

Kinda of ironic don't ya think.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

His doctrine is THE sound doctrine (he thinks it is anyway).

He is stating your (and mine, lol) doctrine is wrong and because it is wrong you do not care about people going to hell.

I think that is point.

it is a little weird since according to @MerSee only the "selected" can believe in Christ Jesus.

Kinda of ironic don't ya think.

The pity is they believe it, the danger is they are teaching it to others. smh

 

[Mem]

Interesting thoughts. Thanks for expressing them.

I'm not attempting to teach you something as I continue. I'm rather letting you in on my processing for your understanding and potential reasoning.

The reason I asked the initial question is I for the most part begin as a basic literalist. So, I look for the range of meanings of words (even though some question when I don't agree with their views). And the first step if I really want to get back to the basics and contemplate from there is to just translate literally and outline the clause connections. I really cannot agree or disagree in finality with anyone unless and until I go through whatever level of detail I need to go through to get there.

• God chose you (plural)
  • into (eis) salvation
    • in (en) dedication/sanctification/holiness [of] S(s)pirit and
    • in (en) faith [of] truth
    • into (eis) which He called/summoned/invited you (plural)
      • through (dia) our Good News
      • into (eis) [a] preserving/gaining/possessing/possession (noun)
        • [of] glory
          • [of] our our Lord = Jesus Christ

Every one of these prepositions and insertions of "[of]" can be translated in different ways and depending on the chosen translation can mean something different. Even the words following {of] can be translated differently, e.g. "[a] preserving/gaining/possessing/ possession [of] glory - could be a "glorious possession" - so Paul is either saying we're going to possess glory of our Lord Jesus Christ (e.g. being in Christ) or we are our Lord Jesus Christ's glorious possession.

There are times in the Text where Spirit may be spirit.

Salvation as the three of us have looked at can be speaking about different phases/stages of salvation.

If the (en) clause (shown above as two (en) clauses) are tied to salvation as I've outlined it, then they are telling us something about salvation.

The same wording, "in (en) dedication/sanctification/holiness [of] S(s)pirit" is used in 2Pet1:1-2 and is tied to foreknowledge and in speaking of selected/chosen/elected [men] (adjective).

I don't see any temporal markers in the verbs "chose" or "called" to indicate any sequence.

IMO the "(en) dedication/sanctification/holiness [of] S(s)pirit and faith [of] truth" statement is likely very important and so is the sequence of the Gospel call/invitation.

Have some things to do...

I trusted that you would provide the details for examination and I appreciate that, so thank you, as I have to save energy for the legwork needed at the shop. I'll revisit this for private study later. tc

 

[Rufus]

They did not know good and evil before they ate.

​

And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, ​

knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand ​

and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Gen 3:22​

Before they fell?
They did not know what evil was.
They were only knowing good!

Word usage in the Bible is needed to be understood..

When a hurricane destroyed an ancient village?
An ancient might say... "A great evil has overtaken our village."

Evil is bad things happening.
In the Garden it was continuous peace. No evil.
They had no knowledge of evil.

When they fell and everything began going wrong for them?

Suddenly ... they knew what evil was.

Here..

Look at Isaiah 45:7!

King James Version

I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things.



Now look how we would say it today!

​

New International Version​

I form the light and create darkness,​

I bring prosperity and create disaster;​

I, the Lord, do all these things.​

New King James Version​

I form the light and create darkness,​

I make peace and create calamity;​

I, the Lord, do all these things.’​

English Standard Version​

I form light and create darkness;​

I make well-being and create calamity;​

I am the Lord, who does all these things.​

​

According to Isaiah 45:7 Adam and Eve had no way of knowing evil until after they fell. It was the first time they experienced evil!

Our definitions of words should not be based upon our gut feelings.
But upon its usage as found in Scripture.


grace and peace!

As usual, Genez does not know of what he speaks. Darkness is Evil! Just as Darkness is the absence of Light, so too Evil is the absence of Good. Evil is not a thing in and of itself.

Since God always had the knowledge of Good and Evil, then why can't he "create" evil, i.e. what is NOT Good?

 

[Genez]

there is no confusion or paradox except in the minds of those who do not yet know who the God of Holy Scripture is and who they are before Him.

Until God humbles a person so that they come to realise that they have absolutely no righteousness in themselves and justly deserve God's perfectly good, holy and righteous wrath they will never cry out to Him for mercy and this is why a man-centred gospel is false because it robs a perfectly jealous God of the glory of salvation which belongs to Him alone and seeks to give it to men who by nature hate God and would never choose Him unless He first chose them.

First of all?
Please... Get rid of that sinister looking avatar.
It sets a very bad tone for whatever you want to say.

Its like going to Catholic confession booth and you see the priest peeking at you through a hole in the wall.

No matter what you say.... which may be good in itself,
Gets poisoned when that avatar is in one's face.


grace and peace .................